| Author | Message | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 399 Registered: 7-2002 |
Russ Thanks for reminding me of the data. Given the data, I'd make the same choice. 3.2 curves similar to QV? I'd have thought it might be a bit different given the broader torque curve. I am hoping I'll have received the 36mm choke "cans" when I get home later tonight and will have them on the car prior to my next outing at Gingerman a week from today. I am interesting to see how they change the operating characteristics. Good news, it is a relatively easy and inexpensive change. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 433 Registered: 2-2003 |
Mood, OBTW, Paul Sloan's manifolds were made up in a machine shop specifically for the IDAs. My cast DCNF manifolds were a product of the famous Frank Capo of Modena Engineering in Austrailia. best rt | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 432 Registered: 2-2003 |
Mood - thanks, we need all the encouragement we can get some days.  Philip - thanks for the caveat. For all of you whom have hung on to this thread this long, here comes the qv ignition advance info! According to the Fact. Manual, there are 8 built in advance curves based on manifold (plenum) vacuum and rpm. More accurately, the DIFFERENCE between plenum pressure and ambient atmospheric pressure. Wooooo. These specs are for USA qv cars. Starting with curve 1: this is the LEAST difference ( 0-70 mm Hg) between ambient and plenum pressure (i.e. wide open throttle, or WOT, our favorite). Here are the break points: 0-1100 rpm: 6 degrees advance 1100 - 3800: essentially a linear progression (with a v. sl. kink 1800 @ 17 degrees) from 6 degrees to 34 degrees advance 3800-4400: does an immediate drop to 29 degrees and then advances linearly to 32 @ 4400 degrees where it stabilizes. To compare with a USA 2 valve, the 2 valve WOT curve 1 advance maxes at 32 degrees at 4200 rpm At higher levels of vacuum ( curves 2-7: closed, sl. open throttle), the advance ranges from 3 degrees RETARDED at 1100 rpm to a max of 40 degrees advance for small throttle settings. Curve 8, the highest vacuum (> 490 mm Hg), has an curve that only goes up to 20 degrees advance. The EURO qv's have a different, much flatter advance curve with idle advances ( curves 4-8, closed throttle) starting at 10 degrees going to max advance at WOT (curve 1) being 32 degrees at 4500. The Euro qv curves bring in more advance earlier. Intrestingly, the Euro 2v max WOT advance is 37.5 degrees. When I unpack my scanner from the move will try to post, but these curves are widely available in the qv maint. manual. Back to our story: The Millermon distributor is centrifigal without vacuum advance, and I'm looking at using a qv combo Euro curve profile with idle about 10 and max advance around 32 degrees in by 3500 or so. If you hung on this long and this makes sense, Congrats! For those of you wondering if a Euro ECU would give you better engine response, I'm not sure. Anyway, good for me to double check and review all of this. Thanks again Philip, and hth someone. | ||
| Mahmood Juma (Mood)
New member Username: Mood Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2003 |
Where do you guys get those lovely QV-to-Weber DCNF & IDF manifolds from? Do they really cost $375 each!? I've been hell bent on coverting my 308 QV to IDF webers for over a year now. Seeing pics and reading about of Russ Turner's and Paul Sloan's projects is the coolest thing I could ever expect to find on this site. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 396 Registered: 7-2002 |
Russ I thought max advance on the 3.2 was 26 or 27 degrees(?) If so, what's the logic on running more advance than factory spec? I thought the 2V cars tend to run more advance because they don't breath as well as the 4V cars. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 427 Registered: 2-2003 |
Philip Thanks. The 3.2 ignition curves are in my owners manual. I believe you to be absolutely correct about advance and will hold it down to 30-34 degrees max coming in around 3000 or so. Ben's distributor does not have a vacuum advance for high manifold vacuum/small throttle settings, so will lose some efficiency, but tolerable. More good news is that Ben said the distributor was going to be a bit shorter than the fitment buck, so that gives me more clearence room to work with, and will be cleaner. He has been great to work with for me. As silly as it may sound, I really want this whole show to look as simple and clean as it is. I always admired the elegance of those early 308 engine bays. Good news - CARBS and AIRBOX are HERE. The guys at the shop have test fit everything and says it really looks fantastic, like a Ferrari factory installation... The fit is going to be tight with the bonnet I'm told - we'll see next week as it is currently off. Will see it Tuesday and post pics. Slow steady progress. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 394 Registered: 7-2002 |
Russ All looks great. I am sure it has been a process to bring it this far and now the end is in sight. Congratulations. I expect you have the 3.2L ignition advance curves but if not, let me know. Does the Millermon unit accept a vacuum input for increased advance at higher manifold vacuum/smaller throttle openings? On tweaking the ignition curve, I am going to run a bit more advance lower down than stock (~34 at 3K) and hold max advance to 34 or so. I have been told this will work well with my cams but also not to exceed this. As you know, the 4v cars run less advance than the 2v cars. I'd think about some dyno time if you stray more than a degree or two from stock settings. Keep us posted. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 425 Registered: 2-2003 |
cost summary: FWIW ....'back to the future' I am hoping to pick up 30 - 40 hp from replacing the Kjet with carbs. Principle parts: manifolds: $1500 (could probably have done better) 40 DCNF carbs: $1200 Airbox: $150 Linkage/fuel pump/filter/etc: ~$200 Net weight loss (the car, unfortunately not me): ~50# Already have a tubi ($$$$ but made a big bifference) and a Stebro Cat replacement ($200) Now, my target was not ultimate power. The forced induction is the way to go there. Mark is correct that EFI follows next. For what I wanted to do (~300 hp, simple, reliability, sound, cams later), Webers were the most bang for the buck. And they are so OEM Ferrari looking The only other 4valve going to carbs (44IDAs! - also p&p, cams, pistons)I know is FChatter Paul Sloan hth | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 417 Registered: 2-2003 |
Steve Thanks for the post - You are right as usual. Am not planning right now on having it functional and I do agree it needs to come off; Not sure how to get at the front bank yet, and would kind of like to do it in one fell swoop if I could find a set of headers to replace the stock. The injector ports are all pretty frozen shut, so it might be a mess requiring some torch work, and don't want to drop the engine at this stage. Will drop it next year for some headers if I can find some. London Stainless said they could do a set if I sent them mine, which is a bit too involved. Tubi's website says they make them, but they are peobably Euro which is different from American Spec I believe. Any leads appreciated! best rt | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2063 Registered: 1-2001 |
Russ -- Awesome project (just wish I lived somewhere where I could do something like this)! Are you planning on keeping the air injection system functional? If not, you should really do an air injection nozzle-ectomy IMO. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 416 Registered: 2-2003 |
Paul It's the commonly available big Facet fuel pump (see picture); Got this recc. from another thread and it is also routinely used a s replacement Ferrari pump. Remember to bypass the FI fuel cutoff relay when you wire yours up! The fuel regulator is the commonly available Holley I believe. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 631 Registered: 3-2001 |
Russ, What fuel pump and regulator did you go with? Part#'s and source would be great! Looks great. Thanks, Paul | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 412 Registered: 2-2003 |
Update Still waiting on GT Car Parts to send the carbs and 308 airbox like they said they were weeks ago. Grr. Told us today they would Red Label tomorrow. Anyway, cam covers and cleaned up engine bay coming together and looking good - again, amazing how much room and weight loss there is when the Kjet comes out. Should open up even more with the new ignition and removal of a couple more hoses. Simple is good... Installing the new pump and regulator. Ben Millermon sent the basic single distributor piece to ensure it fits, which it did. Decided to mount it aft to ease maint. and tuning. (It will be so great not to have two $250 caps and $500 wires, not to mention reliability, adjustable advance and parts availability). Will now go back to Ben for finishing. Will have to reroute one water hose down and underneath the distributor to make it nice. We're looking at starting with about 10 degrees static which should run up to about 30-34 degrees full advance around 3000 rpm. Will have an MSD - 6AL box with 8000 rpm rev limiter and high power coil. Any experience from other Millermon distributor owners welcome. I'm going to try to see if he can shorten the distributor a bit as well. Will also be replacing the cat with a Stebro Euro resonator - a test pipe with a fiber chamber to smooth out the sound, but still straight through. Already have a Tubi. With the qv carb howl and exhaust, everyone is expecting it to sound pretty amazing. Slow steady progress. Any and all advice welcomed. best to all rt Anyone know where to get a set of ss headers to fit an American spec car?      |