| Author | Message | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Intermediate Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 1203 Registered: 8-2001 |
Steve, I believe that car is relatively pricey (a complete car that is)- I think I saw it listed for 280k euro's-- but thats complete with a body kit and a new interior. I'm really interested (even if you don't use them) to hear how much they'd want just for engine work if you don't mind. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 604 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernie-thanks for the lead. 606 bhp is just what I need. I assume i have to ship my car to some foreign country (there is no address, telephone 3 on the website). But it sounds great. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 796 Registered: 11-2001 |
Steve, if you are gonna have it blown you may want to have these guys do it for you. I got this info from a thread in the general area. Anyway the web site is: http://novitecrosso.com The figures for the 360 that they twin supercharged are: 606hp @ 8,600 rpm 454 lb-ft @ 6,250 rpm 0-60mph: 3.6 seconds 0-100mph: 8.4 seconds 1/4 mile: 11.6 @ 124 mph Topspeed: 213mph I think they can give you what you are looking for. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 812 Registered: 11-2002 |
E-mail, huh? No me send.  | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 599 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thanks Rob. Thanks for the e-mail as well. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 810 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ted Wentz, (516) 467-9040 | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 596 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thanks Byron Rob and Mark. Adding a blower and extending engine life sounds like a great idea. Anyone know anyone on the East Coast (Northeast) who could do this well? Hate to ship the car to Dallas for a Norwood job. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1274 Registered: 10-2002 |
Steven, I'd like to add another contact to Rob's list: Give Costantino Bertuzzi a call at FX Performance in Los Angeles. He has a small fleet of 360 challenges, is a test driver of the 360 CH/GT for Ferrari and former team manager for various 360 CH teams. I'm sure with his experience with tuning these cars, he will be able to custom-tune your 360CH to any spec you so desire. He is a great guy - very personable. Just mention to him I gave you the contact info. FX Performance 310.575.5663 Byron | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 807 Registered: 11-2002 |
SDII is for diagnostics, not remaping. Burning a new map requires different components, and there are a few Bosch experts in the aftermarket who can do this. Custom programing will not cost $29K, it may run a few thousand though, but your paying for an experts time as much as hardware. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 685 Registered: 5-2002 |
RPM is much harder on the engine than boost is. The general rule is that if you stay in the 5-8 range (30-50% hp increase) the wear differance will not usually be noticable, and that will give well over 500 hp. You can also run less cam, less compression, lower rpm with a little more boost and make over 500 hp while EXTENDING the engine life over stock, rpm is not your freind..although is sound great. With race gas available you won't need to intercool...unless you want to turn the boost up higher. If you try to do the same thing with cams/compression /porting, you will dramatically decrease the engine's life. Often if you keep it to 5 psi or so, you don't even need to mess with the computer. I have messed with quite a few engines, but the 308 is the first time I've gone with boost....I can honestly say that I will probably never build another naturally aspirated engine. I had the blower set at 10 psi and I put about 15K miles it... before I decided to put on a much bigger blower and intercooler to push the boost to 20-24 psi. The parts are all made, I'm hoping it will run in 2 weeks...although I tend to underestimate how much work is left to do. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 594 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thanks to all. I have heard about the Motec problems with the fly-by-wire throttle. Looks like I'll start with cams, but I don't really want to spend $29,000 for the SD2 programming unit to remap the engine. 13:1 is ok, because all the tracks we use carry racing fuel, and the car is not street legal. I'm still intrigued by the blower idea, but wonder how much boost the engine will tolerate without needing a rebuild every 15 minutes. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 157 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've seen inside several Michelotto 360 N-GT engines now. Step 2.5, 2.75 and 3. The oil pump mods are minimal...a lighter relief valve spring to reduce pressure, and some relieving around pump ports. The sump is baffled...but they also re-engrave the tank dipstick to make you overfill it. And if it runs a little low (like challenge) they surge just the same as if they had no baffles. The heads/ports are so near to standard it's criminal they even say they're worked. The cam lift/profile/timing varies depending on which spec you have. Only the Step 3 has both cams changed from challenge...which is same as road car. They all have the exhaust variators removed. The pistons are nice. And 13:1 comp can be used unrestricted on road cars...but requires 102 octane fuel, and specific fuel/ignition mapping. Further to this, despite Motec claims, they can't operate the fly/wire throttles reliably yet, so you need a specific Bosch ECU or to convert to cable throttle and manual gear shift....good luck.....$$$$$$!!!!! The best parts of the Michelotto build are the mapping and dyno development time for cam timing etc (without variators). A few good strengthenings of certain components too. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 799 Registered: 11-2002 |
Solly, Some contact information so you can make an informed decision based on time, budget, and power/maintenance goals. Whomever builds your engine is someone you'll have a (hopefully) long relationship with. As you know, Michelotto builds the 360GT engines and chassis. Great people, I once obtained permission to build an F40GTE personally at their facility, until the budget to build dried up (so I built one in the States with a smaller budget). Michelotto G & C Snc Luigi Dindo (fluent in English, great guy) Via Chiesonuova, 27 Padova 35136 +39 (49)871.3811 fax 39.49.871.8646 Ted Wentz, (516) 467-9040 Ted is also a Ferrari engine expert, on the East Coast, and I agree with James, Bob is the guy on the West Coast. Ted has been very helpful to me with Challenge and 308GT projects. Wayne Obry Motion Products 8512 US Hwy 45 Neenah, WI 54956 (920) 725-4688 Wayne is THE guy in the Midwest, and I've known him for years. From Pebble Beach concourse winners to 600 HP GTO's (yes, 600 hp, if you've been to B.R.I.C. at Road America, you've seen this car) he can do it all. I've seen the dyno sheets on these monstrous naturally aspirated engines, flat torque curves, high horsepower. Steven, if you want to stay normally aspirated, call these guys. If you want to go forced induction, call Norwood. Turbos will give you by far highest power/dollar, with reliability, and on the track, no worries about 'off-boost'. Have fun, Rob | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1360 Registered: 1-2002 |
Solly: don't do theblower/forced induction, here's what's different ; 360c v. NGT: >>Both cars feature higher lift cams, redesigned combustion chambers-possibly additional cylinder head porting and polishing?- and redesigned pistons yielding a 13:1 compression ratio. The spent gases are now rerouted via a redesigned and more freely flowing exhaust system. Reciprocating mass on the bottom end has been reduced by the adoption of a lightweight flywheel and crank, increasing engine response and operational longevity. In further reducing the wear upon the motor and in an effort to reduce friction losses the dry-sump system pressure has been reduced and redesigned; including the pumps, which have been modified to flow more efficiently at lower total pressure.<< Looks like you need to get your hands on a set of cams, do some porting polishing and most importantly, get a standalone ECU. Motec, et. al. allow you to plug into your wiring harness, and change the fuel/ignition curves, in real time, on a dyno. I would start there, before you turned your money onto internals. Cams and a standalone, and a good dyno shop, will be all you need. I don't understand why someone said you couldn't run 13:1 w/out the retrictiors... higher compression = more power. Simple, and w/out restriction, and ample fuel, 13:1 will make more power than 11:1 cr, all day long. Don't blow 200k, when you can get close with a lot less. -hubert | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Intermediate Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 1183 Registered: 8-2001 |
Any update? | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 579 Registered: 6-2001 |
I'd be happy with 500-600 bhp. I'm going to contact norwood and see what they say. Thanks to all | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 674 Registered: 5-2002 |
With a blower, the boost is instant because the blower is belt driven and alway at the correct rpm. Also the torque curve is almost as flat as it was in the naturally aspirated engine, so there is really no change in driveability at any speed. Turbos need to spool up when you go from throttle off to throttle open, so there is some lag before the boost is available, maybe a couple tenths on a second. Also, they really only supply boost in the top 1/2 of your rpm range. At the track, I would hope 2 things. First your engine is never in the low 1/2 of the rpm band and sencond that the you are never rolling though a turn with your foot off the throttle, but feeding throttle though the turn and out the exit. If both of thoses things are true, you should never notice the turbo lag on the track. Niether on them are true on the street, so you will notice both the step in the torquue curve at about 1/2 redline where the boost comes on and the lag of the turbo(s) when you pull out or pass... NOS, (NO2 I think), increases the % of oxygen in the air going to the engine. More oxygen means you can burn more gas and make more power. (turbos/blowers add more air, which means more oxygen and gas and more power). A little is fine, about a 25% hp increase. More more than that and the combustion tempurature gets too high because the NOS increases oxygen %, not air mass(mostly nitrogen) so there is more but no extra air mass to absorb it. That is not a problem with turbos/blowers. 850 hp is probably a good # for a full race engine and the price of $200k is probably not far off to build it. If you set your sights a little lower, say 600-700 hp, I would think around 20K-40K would do it for either a blower or a turbo. The guys at Norwood should be able to give you better price numbers, at least for the turbo or NOS. I'm not sure if they do much with blowers, I could help you with the design, but you'd still need to have it installed. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 146 Registered: 7-2003 |
By the way...our tweaked Challenge cars lap to well within 2 seconds per minute of the N-GT car with similar driver ability. Have a look at www.procar.com.au in the Phillip Island meeting image gallery for a peek at "my" car driven by Allan Simonsen, compared to the N-GT driven by John Bowe. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 145 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm sure the F40 LM specs could be applied to a 360 quite easily. That'd give you 850 BHP in a chassis infinitely superior to the F40's wheelbarrow frame. Would that suffice sir...cost you about $200,000 to fit though | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 578 Registered: 6-2001 |
Anyone know if the 360 engine is strong enough for a blower? If so, how much max boost? Also, problem is powering out of turns on track. Boost goes to zero during braking and cornering and takes a second or 2 to kick in on acceleration (turbo lag), and may kick in just as I'm slowing for the next turn, or mid-turn. The 360 CH is scary enough in turns without an extra shot of hp in the middle of a turn. That's a definite recipe for a spin. Does a supercharger maintain boost pressure 100% of the time? Does an NOS system add boost or just increase bhp by burning better than O2/gas mixture? Will it harm the engine? Will I need higher compression pistons and heads? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 673 Registered: 5-2002 |
Come to the dark side and feel the power of BOOST..... Seriously, the easiest, most reliable and cheapest way to add power is to add boost. For the track, a turbo is probably the best bet, I prefer superchargers for the street. There are several 550-600 hp 308s running around on the street (mine should be jointing them soon). A 360 engine should fall in the 650-770 range....that will open your eyes when you push the throttle. Just a thought. If it's just the straights you want speed, NOS will add 100+hp. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 139 Registered: 7-2003 |
The 360 N-GT has 437BHP at 8700rpm with it's FIA mandatory 2x 30.8mm restrictors fitted, when running in the latest "Step 3" configuration, with the optional 4-2-1 unsilenced exhaust system. To run without the restrictors would require lower compression ratio than the 13:1 (11:1 CH)normal, and a complete re-map, but it is possible to have 480 BHP WITHOUT restrictors.....but I very much doubt he has done this. If his engine is a step 2/2.5/2.75 then he has less than 435 BHP. | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 207 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well, the 360 Stradale is rated at 425hp, so maybe start there? vty, --Dennis | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 576 Registered: 6-2001 |
James- I need another 70-80 bhp. The engine gets rebuilt every season anyway, roughly 30 hours track time, although a 360 rebuild is substantially less than 125k. Could you recommend someone on the East Coast? Interesting, but I saw Gordon Eggleton of Hudson Historics who's got Marshall Field's Spice-Ferrari (not one of the 2 real ones, but an exact duplicate) for sale, and he claims a full engine rebuild after 17 hours at $7,000 all inclusive. What the hell do they do for 125k? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2513 Registered: 10-2002 |
Solly If you want serious Ferrari HP there are several people who can do it for you. Bob Wallace who did my P4 motor is one. That said the time between rebuilds on a full chat 333sp is 24 hours and Micheletto charges 125K for it. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 575 Registered: 6-2001 |
I am running the stock 360 CH. Met a guy with a 360 N-GT this weekend at the Glen. Great body and wing, and great looks. Engine same old 3.6 as in every other 360, but he claims 480bhp, and trying to stay with him on the track I believe it. What mods can be done to a Challenge engine to increase horsepower? Car's already got high compression pistons and heads, 5 valves per cylinder, individual ignition coils for each plug, titanium conrods, racing exhaust and all the other goodies, yet puts out about 400-410 bhp. What can be done to an already highly modified engine to get me 80 more bhp (without a blower)? How do the N-GT cars do it? I knbow that the ECU can be remapped using the computer that connects to the car, but can this really gain that much bhp? If so, at what expense? Maybe I'll stretch the car 10" and shoehorn in a V-12 (just kidding). Any ideas? |