| Author | Message | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 548 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yes - I have talked to Web Cam in California and Frank Capo in Austrailia. Web cam is who I am planning to use, as they are very saavy nad sold even skeptical me on hard welding. They also are well versed in the differences in 2cam vs 4 cam set ups. There recommended 2v performance cam for the Ferrari is really pretty close to the P6. Don't have the numbers here, but if you look at some of Philip's and my earlier posts you will be swimming in the details. Frank Capo is a racing mech in Austrailia who runs Modena Engineering. They used to sell Ferrari performance parts until Frank's brilliance as a race mechanic now keeps him on the road. His performance cam specs (also in the archives) are, guess what, also similar to the P-6. Due to Frank's other commitments, he is pretty much unavailable now best I can tell although I think Carl Jones and some of our Austrailian mates talk to him. The Web Cam (they have a website) price quoted to me was $60 per lobe, and if you don't want their profile, they'll give you what you tell them. They need about 2 - 3 weeks turn around. They seem great to work with. hope this helps best rt | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 467 Registered: 7-2002 |
Bill On fabricators: I think Russ has dealt with WebCam as has Bill Badurski with good results. You'd need to give them a set of cams for them to regrind. I had 2 lobes repaired by Dema Elgin (Elgin cams), recommended by Allen Bishop. Other have talked about Frank Capo at Modena Engineering [?] in Australia. Russ, did you use this guy too? On profile: I am not sure where you'd go for this. I'd probably start with a good engine builder. I can give you the tracings of the P6 (assuming I can find them), but you'd need to talk to the designer/builder about intended usage (traffic/street/track). Most commentators seem to suggest higher lift/270 or so duration. The P6 are modest lift and 290 duration. I heard of someone using 302 duration cams and the Lotus racing cams used to be 315 duration. If you start increasing lift, you're going to get involved in a dialog about piston to valve interference fit etc. See if Jeff Howe has any P6s/knows of any sources. I can give you the part numbers if needed. You might also check with Superformance in the UK, they were getting hi-performance cams made up and while they are not longer doing it, they may provide the specs. Remember, when you start playing with any of this, the emissions consequences need to be considered if you are in a smog area. HTH | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 542 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks Philip, May I ask who offers alternative profiles? | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 462 Registered: 7-2002 |
Bill They are 25+ years old and the factory only made so many sets. Best bet is to keep your eyes open on FML etc. I did find an original set, but as you may know if you've been following this thread, they needed work. You could get your cams built to a P6 profile (welded, ground, nitrided, heat treated, parkerized) , but the originals had specific oil galleyways which a welded up pair of cams may not. There are alternative profiles which may be better depending on your intended usage. If you do find a set, I would strongly suggest you go back and read the various threads so you can glide down our otherwise bumpy learning curve. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 536 Registered: 2-2003 |
OBTW - early yet, but the ride quality of the Michelins is way better than the Bridgestone RE-71s and the steering response feels the same. No increase in steering effort with the 225/50s (yea!), in fact, perhaps a bit lighter. Won't know about grip until after about 1000 miles. best rt | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 533 Registered: 2-2003 |
Barry Thanks so much for the positive comments. Yes - the stock 308 GTB airbox (shown below) will be ducted to the starboard scoop. Had to trim the Mondial scoop back a bit, but already have ducting in place and fits great. Philip, et al., Terrific report, as usual. I think we will, like you, go with the 45 pump jets. Revving from idle, gives blue 'over-rich' smoke, and when you stand on the throttle while driving, it momentarily bogs, then slingshots off. Interesting idle: to idle smoothly when cold, runs best a bit rich on the set screws, but then needs to be leaned out for best smooth idle when warmed up. We are not talking much of a turn on the idle mixture here either. I did not hook up the starter enrichment, but perhaps I will, or go to 62 idle jets just to see. Once we get the new distributor on, we will also look at going with more static advance to see if that helps. It is creamy smooth on the idle once settled. This is all great fun, as you can imagine, and I think we will have it dang near perfect. We are hooking up the mixture meter on the O2 sensor port (see picture) and are going to drive around and watch in vitro behavior. While the mech (Gary - terrific guy)has had it on the road, I have just been around the block. Total personality change of the engine. He says definitely more torque lower down and a ferocious growl lunging at higher rpms. My brief impressions are that the engine has a completely different personality - VERY edgy. Compared to before, I guess the 911 guys were right: it responds RIGHT NOW to throttle input, especially over 2000 rpm when compared to the stock mech FI. Where the Kjet would build up power in a steady accelleration, the Webers bring in all the power NOW and jumps. Also great fun. Will post all of the distributor issues in a second post as there may be folks who specifically are interested in the Millerman conversion. Below are a picture of the portable mixture meter and the car with her new Michelin Pilot A/S 225/50 and 245/45. Interestingly, I've lost so much weight in the rear from the tubi over the stock muffler, no more cat, no more FI system, (and currently little gas)that the rear of the car sits a little bit higher I think. Thanks again to the great guys at Grand Touring, Philip, Mark and everyone who has been a part of this. best rt   | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 541 Registered: 5-2001 |
Philip, Is there a reliable source for P6 cams? | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 692 Registered: 2-2002 |
Russ, I'm still following this conversion closely and am impressed with its progress. Are you doing anything in the way of ducting outside air through the scoop and to the array of Webers? Barry | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 461 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hans Will do. Given the water pump has just gone, the winter projects are starting earlier than planned... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1696 Registered: 4-2002 |
Philip: Keep us informed if you can get rid of the stumble/starvation you mentioned in the 4-5K range. I'd always heard this was an unfixable 'fault' in the carbs themselves, more noticeable in one direction. I'm interested to see if it can be tuned out. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 458 Registered: 7-2002 |
Russ I haven't experimented with larger or smaller pump jets, so don't have a "controlled experiment" to comment on. My thoughts on "tip in" with the P6s are as follows: Baseline: Idle with the 60 jets. Brown plugs tips. (Euro= tapered) mixture screws 5 to 7 turns out. Could probably go to a 62 to get a better starting point. Mid range (145 mains). Ok, possibly a bit lean. Up top 5800+ lean with the 185 ACs. All above with 34mm venturis. On the road/track. Open throttle all the way at 1500 - 2000 rpm, falls on its face, stutters, slow as hell then "clears its throat" and goes like Enzo intended. Have to roll on to the gas. Is this pump jets or the vagaries of bigger venturis, long duration cams? I think the latter. 4000 - 5000 rpm feathering the throttle (say at the carousel at Road America or turn 6/7 at Gingerman), feel effects of fuel starvation unless using fairly wide throttle opening/changes. Pump jet? Main jet? Float height? Could maybe raise the floats to 45mm from 48mm to keep more fuel in the bowl, but this will obviously change the operation of the em tube/raise the main jet a half notch. TBD. 6000 - 8000 rpm. No issue on accel with the 34mm venturis, but as I mentioned previously, exiting the track at RA (lot of flat out running), the ex. tips were brick colored. Need bigger AC. Running in this rev range with the 36mm venturis it lacked significant power (as we've discussed before). So, net net. I don't have good information on the pump jets. My gut is they are OK. My experience with FI systems is get the three primary jets [fuel curves] "tuned" (idle, main, AC) and then experiment with the pump jet (accel enrichment). You don't want to be covering up a lean running condition with more accel fuel. HTH, sorry I don't have better data. Are you measuring EGTs or wideband O2? The readout should tell you if it is going lean (or rich) on tip in. Also, how does it feel in the car? FWIW, my prior experience with tuning accel enrichment parameters with a custom FI set up indicated greater accel enrichment typically needed at lower rpm than higher rpms. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 532 Registered: 2-2003 |
Philip Thanks - great info for me and those who might 'cam' their 308 as you have done so well. I know I keep trying to pin you down on this, but could you comment if you feel your accel jets at the stock 145 are keeping up when you 'dump' the throttle on the P-6 cams? Will be going to futz with it some this afternoon. thanks again, best, rt "Let's keep the tech board professional, polite and flame-free!" | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 457 Registered: 7-2002 |
Russ As I mentioned in my email, the car was running lean at the top end with 34mm/145 main/185 ACs at Road America over the weekend. I talked to Mike at Pierce. His first piece of advice as an AF meter. Second, go richer 1/2 step on mains [=150] or 1 step on AC [175s]. Let me know how the 175s work for you. I had my water pump bearings go on the way back from Elkhart Lake so the winter projects are starting a bit early this year. I do have some 150s I'll try if I manage to get it running again yet this year, but there are a list of projects, some of which fall into the "while you are in there for the pump" category. | ||
| Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
Junior Member Username: Kurtk328 Post Number: 224 Registered: 3-2001 |
Beautiful, Russ - way to go...... Just remember to fasten the ignition wires to their plastic holders or they might vibrate themselves to death. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 510 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks everyone - really appreciate the supportive posts. Snyc'd the carbs and it idles creamy smooth at 850 rpm, and a lot quieter than I would have thought. The idle with the .6 jets seems perfect. Also NO problem in transition from idle to main jets on a short test drive, although still smells rich and puffs blue when revved. Will take out the .6 pump jets and reinstall the stock .45s and see what that does. Will also be putting in the 175 a/c over the 190s on an empiric hunch for high end. Will have the mixture meter on tomorrow. The Millermon distributor should arrive tomorrow and will install - hopefully pics in a few days. Looking forward to adjusting the advance a bit for response and power. Intersting aesthetic note - with the matt crinkle red cam covers, no FI plumbing and new manifolds/carbs, the view even looking in THROUGH the closed bonnet grill is a 200% improvement - really nice and clean with a splash of color. Got in some new tires (Neal at the Tire Rack rocks)- opted for 225/50 and 245/45 -17s. Since I use this car as a GT and long trip car year round, opted to try Michelin Pilot Sport A/S. Rated to max inflation of 51 - will start out with about 40 psi and play from there. If anyone needs a set of Bridgestone RE-71s in 215/50 and 245/45 -17 drop me a line for details. Have decided to ask $2K for the entire stock FI system with manifolds, tb and plenum as pictured below if anyone is interested. Offers entertained. The mech that took it out for a drive said it made the hair on his neck stand up. Again, thanks everyone for all of your help, advice and support. Russ | ||
| 1975GT4Don (1975gt4don)
Junior Member Username: 1975gt4don Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2002 |
Congradulations Russ!!! Wow! I own a carbed 308 gt4 for that very reason---SOUND. Can't stand FI cars, too much of a pain in the a$$ and bucks for sensors this, sensors that, electrical gremlins etc. Plus, ease of access to the engine itself as you don't have 50 miles of FI housings, hoses, fuel distributors and who knows what else. Long live weber carbs. | ||
| Lillo Morreale (Morcal)
New member Username: Morcal Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2003 |
Russ, nice job, welcome to the world of the Weber's. If you want to maximize by factor 2x the sound effect install carb trumpets instead of stock airbox & filter. Really great ! | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 505 Registered: 2-2003 |
Not sure what the FI set-up is worth. Will try to find out. Of course, I can be swayed by cash.  best rt | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 885 Registered: 12-2001 |
How much for the FI set up? | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 424 Registered: 7-2002 |
nice looking work, Russ. Enjoy. Jeff | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 446 Registered: 7-2002 |
Russ Congrats again on getting it going. On your other post, I am running stock pump jets (45s I think), same as the LM car. May need one size bigger. I am going to try a 175 or 180 AC with the 145 mains and the 34mm venturis just to see if there is more at the top. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 328 Registered: 7-2003 |
That's what F-Chat's all about. Patience is a virtue and the rewards are just beginning. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 495 Registered: 2-2003 |
Braved the post Isabela aftermath yesterday to see the Mondial 3.2 run on the Webers for the first time. Will try to stay objective. UPDATE: Linkage - worked with Pierce Manifolds and was able to use original cable, shortening the housing. Full action with the same feel as before. Picture below. Starting. Instantaneous, even first of day. Turn key, then count to 10 while hearing the low muffled beat of the the Facet pump filling the carbs. One shot on the pedal, turn the key: click - VAROOOMMM!! First turn of the starter, first start of the day. In the past, the first start of the day on the injected engine sounded like wheezy old plumbing - not any more! Sounds INCREDIBLE from the first catch. See section on sound. This much improved start-up I must say was an unexpected surprise bonus. Sound: HOLY @#$%^&*(&^%$#@ !!!!!!!!!! WHAT A SOUND!!!!!!! With the qv, trumpets, carbs, long runners, Stebro resonator and Tubi the sound, even from startup is MAGNIFICENT. While words fail me, it went from a thin tenor (even with tubi) to a deep rich baritone harmonizing with the induction wail of the Webers. This baby is flowing some air! While the idle needs to be smoothed out by synch'ing the carbs, the change in sound alone was worth the price. For a similar sound, the Maserati 3.2 V-8 with tubi on http://www.scuderiasystems.com/M-Media.htm is most akin. Throttle response: Instantaneous. Snarley. As advertised WAY better than the K-jet Mixture: A bit rich it seems. When the accellerator is depressed, it kicks out a puff of blue indicating too much gas. Have set floats at 48 with settings 150m/190ac/.60id/.60ap; My first *guess* is that the pump is too rich - will not know until we snc and put the gas analyser (utilizing the stock O2 port)on next week. All advice and recommendations - especially from you carb 308 guys - are welcome! The stock ignition was used for this first start up, and we expect to put the Millermon distributor on next week so we can take advantage by adjusting the advance. Will probably get an MSD and put in the trunk. Will then finish with the required detail job. A clean engine is a happy engine. Also below is a picture of some of what was removed - Any offers? Again - thanks to all who have helped and supported -could not have done this without FChat. More later this week - best to all Russ     |