| Author | Message | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dyno's are just a good way of making noise and wearing engines out. The on road dynamics of air box ram effect, engine bay/fluid/fuel thermodynamics and most of all...the reaction times....are more important. The main thing noticed is throttle response. Even if an engine did not produce more power or torque (highly unlikely), it WILL get to peak power more quickly, and WILL be faster through the gears on the road/track. Having no filter often causes more turbulence in the intake system and is counter productive...the filter acts as an intake damper, removing or reducing power sapping pulses and backdraught. Put any high revving car on any track against an otherwise identical car and compare the difference. Fat old Lazy gas guzzler auto's that only spin up to 4000rpm once in a blue moon will see almost no gains, however, as they are not running anywhere near their full potential. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 517 Registered: 2-2003 |
Interesting article comparing the stock air filter vs K&N vs no air filter on a dyno'd engine at Carobu Engineering appeared Forza a month or two ago. To me the results were counter-intuitive, as the worst was no air filter and the best hp curve came from the stock. There may be an effect of some resistance around the intake trumpets creating pressures that increase flow on more aggressively cammed cars. Even across FCHAT on the Dyno, results have been mixed, with some dyno hp increases seen by Rob Lay on his 328 to zippo by others. A search will give you the details. Kermit's flow data below I would look at hard as well. I have surmized that it's different on different cars. best rt | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2003 |
BMC make filters for all models from F1 to Dino's, and I think these are the best quality all round. However, for half the price I use "Green Cotton" Brand and have many satisfied customers. The K&N I have used in the past seem OK. I guess it's a preference thing. They ALL perform better than standard paper filters. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 494 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mike I think its a good idea to check it every 3 months regardless, I have had mine about six months and haven't needed to clean it yet though I did tapout some particles | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Intermediate Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 1051 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jeff -- how often do you service yours? The K&N folks say 50,000 miles (!) clean/re-oil interval for normal street driving. That seems extreme, but 10,000 doesn't seem out of the question. Here's what it says at the KNFILTERS.com site: We recommend you check your air filter every 30,000 miles, however, under most street conditions the filter will not require cleaning until 50,000 miles of continuous use. They never make a suggestion regarding re-oiling unless you also need to clean it (as least as far as I could find). | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 493 Registered: 8-2002 |
K N seem to have a better seal than the UFI filters, when you take off a factory filter I have seen small dirt/dust behind them, the KN I have not The most important issue for the KN is to clean and oil it regularly, otherwise it will loose its filtering performance, you can't just put them in forget about it and 10k later service them | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 113 Registered: 5-2003 |
Intake systems are tuned just as exhaust systems. The amount of resistance is part of the tuning. Believe me, manufacturers want as much free HP and gas milage as they can get. It is harder than you think to improve upon their systems. aehaas | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2003 |
Try dropping a couple of sports air filters in a 550, than winge about less dirt filtration!! You'll be blown away by the increased performance and not give a 5h1t about a few grains of gnat crap that slips through..... | ||
| stephen winter (355f)
New member Username: 355f Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2003 |
a perhaps Ferrari cant affordtofit K&N then! thats the answer! | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1694 Registered: 4-2002 |
BTW, K&N *IS* OEM in some GM applications. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 606 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks for the info everyone. Just had a chance to get back on. Have a great weekend! Dave | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2127 Registered: 1-2001 |
You're making an unfair comparison -- manufacturers prefer low initial cost, so a non-reusable filter approach makes sense (and not mucking about with another fluid is always a "+"). IMO, a K&N really only makes some sense for a DIYer who will drive enough to do a self-service or two and where there's no reasonably-priced paper filter available for their model -- or do you guys pay a F Shop $100 to clean/re-oil your K&N? | ||
| stephen winter (355f)
New member Username: 355f Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2003 |
I agree with Matt, no doubt they flow better. I am associated with an engine builder who rebuilds and tunes many high performance engines including Ferrari. In the cases where a K&N or similar had been used there was more associated wear. The only conclusion can be that these high flow filters do not filter in the same way. If a filter medium such as this is free flowing, as good filtration and better power as so many claim, why dont ferrari et al fit it??? | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 164 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dave, Sounds like we have the answers we were both looking for! Thanks guys much appreciated. Gordo | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 157 Registered: 8-2001 |
Sorry about that, I'm haveing probs uploading the pic, I'll try once more. | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 156 Registered: 8-2001 |
I have recently flow bench tested the stock 4Valve element, VS the K&N, with the following results: @ 3" HG, the Uni flowed 77% of total available flow, while the K&N did 86.5% OK, now we have established flow superiourity. Experiences is various off road raceing show that the K&N are by far the most popular. And finally, I swear by the one shown on my computer, a Sportster model, adapted. I have had no problems with dust or particulate matter in every case. Everyone has their favorites. Just my .02 worth. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2124 Registered: 1-2001 |
Gordo -- I do think Mr. winters' criticism is a valid point to consider so I wouldn't intentionally be over-cleaning, but it will all depend on where you live -- here in (dusty) CO I'm only getting about 15K~20K miles on our Jeep GC before the outside of its (exposed) K&N element gets ugly enough to prompt me to clean it. I'm in that same mileage range now on the TR (but, of course, don't drive it under as harsh conditions) so will get my first visual data point soon for that situation. The debris retention performance data that people quote is for an accelerated test where a handful of dirt is introduced very quickly into the filter so I think this is an absolute worst case test and under more real-world conditions of very fine-particulates more-individually suspended in an airstream the K&N might better compare. The K&N filter cloth also gets a little fuzzier with use/cleaning IME so that might help too. For me, it's more of an economics issue than a performance issue -- of the three choices: 1. Good-quality paper element at reasonable cost, or 2. K&N, or 3. Good-quality paper element at unreasonable cost, I'd usually pick #1 if it's readily available, but if the choice is #2 or #3 only, then I prefer to go with #2 -- you'll find plenty of sources for #3  ... | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Intermediate Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 1038 Registered: 8-2002 |
One thing you can also do it lightly oil the airbox surface BELOW the K&N filter, to "catch" stuff it might let through. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 779 Registered: 4-2002 |
My 1993 400E with 116K miles on it uses two K and N filters. They have been on it from the beginning. Another is used on my P track car for 50K miles and many track events. There have been no problems with either. Because of the color of the K and N compared with a paper filter, dirt shows less. | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 823 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have alawys used K7N filters. I wash and clean them every 6,000 miles when I have my sservice done on the car. Never had any problems with them. Very good. | ||
| stephen winter (355f)
New member Username: 355f Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2003 |
mmmmm have you ever noticed that with a paper filter it it normally very dirty at say 8/10K whereas a K and N or similar is nowhere near the same? free flowing - less particulate retention I ditched mine and but the paper ones back! | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1692 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dave's comment about "dry overnight" is well taken. I left my newly cleaned K&N outside on a breezy, sunny 100 degree day for several hours and it was still very damp. Don't be in a hurry to do this. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1888 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yup, you will find it necessary to clean them once in a while, I was doing it about once every 30k...maybe a bit longer...I would give it a look see, and if I saw a lot of dirt and bugs, it got cleaned. I used a stiff, narrow brush to get the bugs and accumulated crap from between the pleats, the other dirt washes right out with the K&N cleaner...dried overnight...reoil...good to go. | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 152 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well I told you someone more knowledgeable was bound to come along! Steve, how often should it be cleaned then or is that all covered on the weblink you provided? Thx! | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2123 Registered: 1-2001 |
The K&N cleaning and re-oiling kit (http://kn.paceparts.com/product.asp?0=217&1=465&3=43126) comes with instructions (Gordon -- K&N advertises itself as the "million mile" filter -- see www.knfilters.com). IIRC: 1. spray the cleaner on (dirty) outside of element 2. rinse with water from the (clean) inside to the (dirty) outside (so you don't "drive" the debris into the filter cloth). 3. air dry 4. reoil I find that I use more of the cleaner than the oil so I buy an extra bottle of just the cleaner occasionally. | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 149 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dave, I had K&N fitted to my 348 and was told at the time they would last 30,000 miles... Nothing mentioned about cleaning at all. Would be interesting to find out if they can, I will try to contact the boys that did mine and let you know what they say. In the meantime I am sure others will respond also. Gordo | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 605 Registered: 8-2001 |
The Mondial t came to me with a K&N filter. Never owned a vehicle with a K&N before. Will look at the K&N web site for cleaning instructions, but sometimes manufacturer's instructions are less than ideal. Are there any special tricks to cleaning these? I assume that one just gets whatever cleaner is recommended, soaks the filter in it, let it dry and then oil it. Is this true? Any recommended cleaners or oil to use? How often should it be cleaned and oiled? The Ferrari is a daily driver. Thanks! |