| Author | Message | |||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 736 Registered: 11-2002 |
What do you all think the extra HP will do for the car? | |||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 735 Registered: 11-2002 |
It is an interesting possibility for this engine is'nt it! | |||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 744 Registered: 5-2002 |
Charles, you're right. N2O, sorry about that. I got the 25-30 number from a couple shops that I trust, but they normally deal with the honda crowd, which are generally lower hp/liter. I think a 2 liter honda is about 150 hp, or 75 hp/liter. That would mean 30 hp/ liter of NO would be about 40%. So I guess 120 hp (or 125)would be fine on a 300 hp engine. I want to be clear that I am not saying anything bad about NO. I'm still seriously considering adding it to my car - I just decided to wait until all the bugs are out of the new supercharger-next year. | |||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 734 Registered: 11-2002 |
One more thing. If we go by Mark's 25-30hp/liter figure as a measure of how safe it is, we would be ok adding up to 102hp to this engine. Remember the kit comes with 2 hp levels 100 and 125. All we have to do is use the 100hp jets and we should be ok! | |||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 733 Registered: 11-2002 |
I thought Nitrous was N20 not N0 so the chemical equation can not be correct. The 25N0 should be 25N20 so the equation looks like this instead 3(C8H18) + 25(4N2 + O2) + 25N2O = 24(CO2) + 27(H2O) + 125N2. So the ratio is 41.7 to 1 not 37.5 to 1. Also if I'm not mistaken nitrous is in the bottle at about 900psi which means it comes out as a liquid and very cold. That is partly why it acts as a supercharger, it cools the intake charge which increases its density. Your equation does show some increase in heat, about 16%. Let's face it, heat is what makes this all work. We need extra heat to make extra power. It only stands to reason there would be an increase. The question is how much can we increase it and still be ok. My guess is the engine can withstand a 16% increase. | |||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 743 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here�s the math. Gas is basically C8H18 Air is 4N2 + O2 So you get 2(C8H18) + 25(4N2+O2) = 16(CO2) + 18(H2O) + 100N2 The important thing to not is 100 N2 and 2 gas, or 50:1 Now to make the numbers easy, lets sat 50% hp increase is 50% more gas and we�re using NO to burn the extra fuel, so 3(C8H18) + 25(4N2 + O2) + 25NO = 24(CO2) + 27(H2O) + 112.5N2 Now the ratio is 37.5 quite a bit less. Now real math says I now need to do the heat capacities to the components�..but the result will be the same, it gets much hotter because there is relatively less N2 I mentioned the rings, because it says the same thing. The numbers are for the top ring only, the second and 3rd rings are gaped the same on all engines. The rings are gapped to allow for expansion, the hotter it gets, the more it expands. So taking the .014� for naturally aspirated, the ring maker thinks that a blower/turbo will be 18/14 or 128% the temp of the naturally aspirated engine. The NO engine will be 25/14 or 179% the naturally aspirated temp, a little hotter than I got in the example up above. I do agree 100% that letting it go lean will make it much worse. Throwing it some extra fuel will make it a little better. But it�s still a problem. | |||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 375 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, Like charles said most who hate or have blow something up with NO did not understand it. I see people all the time using wet carb plate style injection in dry manifolds nver designed to flow a wet mixture. This kind of thing is a recipe for disaster. NOS knows this and promoted this idea with lower rated NO setups until the NO direct port under the stock OEM Bosch injector system came into production. Mark, I'm not sure of your math. The same N2 and O2 are in the combustion chamber with fuel being stochiometric. You then add in supplemental fuel to help keep combustion temps down and NO which support the extra fuel burn. The overall temps are the same. It is when you have extra O2 in there from room air or NO making a net lean mixture that raises temps. If you are balanced for burning all the fuel with all the O2 even if pure o2 you have a temperature of burn that does not change. In fact you can add extra fuel so you have unburn fuel and that lowers exhaust temps to a point. As to the ring gap There is a huge difference in making race motors that use NO as in dragster to make instant max power and max filling of a combustion chamber and a street car engine occasionally using NO. Dragsters similar to the large gap use very "loose " pistons so that as temps increase everything specs out under load. Way different senario. Yes you have to excercise some care but an NO car is not a grenade ready to happen. If I No'ed spankys enzo he would be surprised at how an extra 100hp really doesn't feel that great but it is huge by comparison of people putting on tubi's for 20hp they "think" they can feel but just as likely just think they hear. | |||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
New member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2003 |
Charles, never said I hate it, just dont like it. Feel its not the way to go. Also I DO understand it. I was very much into muscle cars long before I ever owned a Ferrari. I still even own my 69 Roadrunner, that Ive had since I was 18.(now 46)It ads ox so more fuel can be burned, however I feel it adds undue stress and sooner or later somthing will let go. | |||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 741 Registered: 5-2002 |
Billy Bob, I'm not saying that more WILL break the engine, I'm saying that 25-30 hp/liter is safe. My number is in line with Charles 200hp/5.7l. I guess it really is more a function base hp than displacement, here's why. Normally the way you get more hp is the increase the amount of air going into the engine (porting, cams, blower, turbo), that drives the cylinder pressure up and so you get more power. However the combustion temp stays about the same because the mass ratios stay the same ie air is about 20% O2 and 80% N2, 1 part O2, 4 parts N2. The O2 burns with the gas, but the N2 is there to soak up the heat. It does get a little hotter due to the pressure increase, but it's about the same. When you start spraying in NO into the mix, you are changing the ratio of O2 to N2. That means that when the O2 and gas burn, there is not as much N2 to soak up the heat and the temp goes up. Because the temp goes up, the pressure goes up and you get more hp. Very different from the non-NO model. Ferrari engines are very strong and will stand the added power, it's the heat that will kill you. When I did my engine I remember reading the instructions on the rings, the top ring gaps were- .014" naturally aspirated, .018" blower/turbo, .025" NO. I'm not saying NO is bad, it is a great way to make hp is short bursts andI almost talked myself into putting it on my car, but caution is required. | |||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 732 Registered: 11-2002 |
They make plate systems for carbed engines! | |||
| spanky mcdoogle (Spanker)
New member Username: Spanker Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2003 |
How would one install NOS if the car was carbed? Is this even possible? | |||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 731 Registered: 11-2002 |
Steve, I don't know if the Nozsel is the best but it does seem to be the easiest to install. I have looked at various ways to put nitrous on this engine and this is the first I have found that does not require extensive modification. The system appears to be a direct bolt in. Billy might be better qualified than I am though to answer this question. Greg, most people that hate nitrous don't understand it. Nitrous is just an oxygen rich inert gas. It does not burn on its own, all it does is support the burning of additional fuel. In affect it is chemical supercharging. If done correctly there are no ill effects that I am aware of. In fact I ran a 200hp system on a GM v8 for years and never had a problem. I am not aware of a better, less expensive way to add that much additional HP and as Billy said, it will not hurt emmisions. If you believe in keeping the car original like many here do, you have to love this idea as the system can be installed or removed from the car without major modidification. The only question that remains in my mind is will the system fit. According to NOS tech support it will. They said the system was designed for Bosch injectors and the fuel rail needs to be ablt to be raised an inch during intsallation otherwise it should be a direct bolt in. | |||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
New member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2003 |
PS I think it was a 200 hit. Also Billy Bob I agree with you, I think my buddy had a prob. with it going lean on him. | |||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
New member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2003 |
Never liked NOS. Big bang looking for a place to happen. My buddy with his vette loved to push that button. His motor was NOT stock and built with very high strength parts and he didn't believe me when I told him he was going to hurt it. He did. Boom!!! | |||
| spanky mcdoogle (Spanker)
New member Username: Spanker Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2003 |
So, is it safe to put NOS on my new Enzo? She's seems a bit slow and doesn't pull very hard over 175 MPH. I've already got test pipes and a racing K&N Filter. | |||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 369 Registered: 8-2002 |
One final point. With NO I can get 100 extra hp or more with total factory reliability and you can pass smog in the toughest state in the USA..Kalifornia. You can't get that with engine mods. | |||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 368 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mark, I disagree. You can put a sh*tload of NO in as long as you have fuel to burn cool. There is a physical limt where you just are not going to get any gain. 95% of people who blow motors with NO are from lean out conditions. Lets take the NO topic to a spearate thread if people want to continue discussing. Direct port is the way to go with 348s ecasue the manifold is dry. 30hp/L is way conservative. I smacked my 944 for 50k miles with twice the rated HP while hunting and destroying vettes and 911's. I ran NO in a 308 carb uintil I ran out of bigger jets. I tore the motor down and there was no wear. I agree to not be crazy but 100 hp in a 300 hp motor no problem. 200 even. 300 probably will break something else before you melt pistons. You'll spin a bearing or bend a rod for the average user but there are ways to run large HP and control damage like not using the NO until the rpms come up a bit. | |||
| steve coleby (Ferraridriver)
Junior Member Username: Ferraridriver Post Number: 158 Registered: 6-2003 |
Charles/Anyone Would you say the "Nozsel" NOS system is one of the best for the 8 cylinder ferrari? I have a mondial T (Same engine as the 348) Thanks Steve | |||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 736 Registered: 5-2002 |
Be careful with NO, a little is fine, but more is bad. The more you add, the hotter it gets in the combustion chamber...to the point of rings seizing and pistons melting. The rule I heard is about 25-30 hp/liter of engine size is safe. If the engine is boosted, multiply by the % hp incease from boost, and that's the safe number. | |||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 524 Registered: 2-2003 |
Will verify that Dimex is very well respected in Germany, certainly since I was there in 97. | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 895 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dimex is very good. They actually reprogrammed both ECU's and so far I have had no problems with it... DIMEX is well known in GERMANY.. | |||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 362 Registered: 8-2002 |
I'm with Charles re NOS but for racing the only way to go is built in on demand full time power and that means expensive mods. I have done both to various Ferraris. For a street car NO is the only way to go for all the reasons Charles sited. The best part about NO is you can always change jets and get more power to a point. So when the 460 comes out with 400hp you can dial in 425 on your 348 and surprise some people. | |||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 644 Registered: 3-2001 |
We just went through the hassle of sending a 355 ECU to HS in Germany and the Guy that runs the place is full of it. It finally clears German customs and he tells us that he can't reprogram the ECU because of the US emissions program, this after he tells us he does 4 or 5 355 US Ecu's a week. Be very careful with this guy at least with a 355 ECU. | |||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2003 |
JRK, The seats look nice but I would not say they are the 'most' comfortable. They have limited movement forward and back, no tilt. Great for the track I would suspect but otherwise a bit of a pain! I wouldnt be rushing to put them in! | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 886 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, I have not got the steering, that costs close to �1000.00. I have not the seats because on the 348 spider the seats seat belt retentioner is bolted to the seat not the bulk because when you convertible roof is retracted it sits on the bulk head. The seats will fit and I can get them but its a worry about how to fit the seat belt retentioner properly.So at the moment I have not bothered. Everything thats on the GTC is on my car including the carbon door seals and badges... | |||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 186 Registered: 2-2003 |
JRK, I must admit having looked more closely at a few 355's I was a bit disappointed. I know performance/handling wise there is little comparison but being the limited version with its individual bits I would be silly to part with it. I am not particularly overawed by the rear of the 348 but otherwise I think they are absolutely beautiful. Amazed the previous owner of yours got all the bits to make yours just like a GTC. Did you get the steering wheel as well:  | |||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 730 Registered: 11-2002 |
Billy, you are correct about the 355 as far as all these upgrades are concerned but Nitrous could do the job for next to nothing. That system we were talking about in another thread could potentially give the car an additional 125hp for just $1500 with very little effort to put it in. JRK, I agree the 348 looks better than the 355. That is why I am also interested in improving it's performance. I have always though the only thing the car needed was a little better low end performance. The nice thing about the Nitrous is it's only there when you need it. You can use it to accelerate hard and then shut it off once the car is at speed. I would like to see the car run in the 12sec range in the 1/4 mile. That together with it's wonderful top end performance would make it nearly unbeatable. Billy might like to jump in here but I think an extra 100hp or so would accomplish the task and I can't think of a cheaper, easier way to get it. BTW the system I am refering to is made by N.O.S and it is called the "Nozsel" system. It is made as a direct bolt in for various EFI engines that use Bosch fuel injectors. It appears that the system will work on the 348 as well with some minor modification, and can add up to 300hp. Check it out @ www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/NOS/NOSNS/NOSzle.html | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 885 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, I have a late 348 Spider but the same as you I was looking for a 355. I found 355 for sale for at �34,9995 at modacars with 16000 kms on it. The car has full history and is mint. The guys at moda cars are great especially Jamie. website www.modacars.com Thing is I actually prefer the look of the 348 from the front and side and in some back. I think also there is two many 355's about and 348 a bit rarer especially the 348 GTC. Actually, forthe some reason. My 348 spider from germany has got the 348 GTC badge it. I know to get this badge from Ferrari you need to prove you have a 348 GTC.. God knows how it was acquired. They cost �325.00 plus VAT for the 348 GTC badge. I know my 348 spider is mint and mechanically perfect. I hard to find another Ferrari of the same condition when looking for a 355. If I could I would have a real 348 GTC, they will be worth a lot of money in the future, its limited that why.... Anything limited from Ferrari is worth a lot... | |||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 185 Registered: 2-2003 |
JRK, I havent checked it should be off the site I asked them to take it off 2 weeks ago! Thanks for letting me know I will drop them a mail now. I had been considering a move to 355 but as it turned out when I looked more closely the differential was just too great. Spoke to a several people who said I would be a fool to part with it as its the GTC. So I've seen sense I suppose and decided not to part with her! Got the info over mail btw, thanks again | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 884 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, Check out this website http://www.hs-elektronik.com The previous owner of my car had some work done on my car by them as well. The graph is this post is from this company. The previous owner of my car passed this on to me from Germany.. I hope this all helps... | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 883 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, This is the price list for 348 Harmann Price list.doc
| |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 882 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, I thought you were selling your 348 GTC ??? Its on the Ferrari Owners Club website... | |||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 417 Registered: 7-2003 |
Gordo, Use this form: http://www.dimex-automotive.de/contact.htm | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 881 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, The previous owner in Germany had the car chipped. I will e-mail the price list. if you contact Dimex they will send you the price list and information etc.. | |||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 183 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks JRK, First question, when I go to that sight it tells me the English version isnt ready... Am I missing something? I presume you can get prices from the site? Could you please drop me the docs via email? Secondly I presume these prices are euros? Didnt realise it was that much! I have the exhaust done so I am particularly interested in just the engine mods, hopefully if I can find out how to get into that site I can find it Thx Gordo | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 874 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, Engine tuning from Dimex... Engine Tuning Engine power Content Order No. Export price EUR Step 1 + 30 BHP * max. torque + 20 Nm Sports exhaust made out of stainless steel, motronics optimisation, optimised intake air flow, sports air filters, F.50.348.01S 4.595,- Fitting F.50.348.01M 395,- Step 2 + 40 BHP * max. torque + 25 Nm as above, but with cat replacement pipes F.50.348.02S 5.104,- Fitting F.50.348.02M 505,- Step 3 + 40 BHP * max. torque + 28 Nm as above, additional sports catalysts F50.348.03S 6.590,- Fitting F.50.348.03M 505,- * Prerequisite is full production power | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 870 Registered: 10-2002 |
gordo, The attachment will not upload. Their website is www.dimex-automotive.de | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 869 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gordo, The chip is from Dimex. See attachment for details under Engine tuning. Note the ECU where fully upgraded not only the chip. Dimex gets 40 bhp from ECU upgrade with exhaust. The head was gased flow and valves/seats polished when the belt was chnaged on the car. Its was not more expensive talking to the previous owner of the car because the engine was out having the belt fitted. This work was done in Germany. | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 868 Registered: 10-2002 |
Steve, Its 350 bhp with ECU upgrades and then 365 BHP with the other upgrades(exhaust, filters,plugs,regulater etc). If you read the text you will read what I mean. | |||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 359 Registered: 8-2002 |
Why bother? The 355 is totally a better car for only 2x the price. The mods alone will cost you that and are untested. You could spend 5-7k just trying to build the aero undertray. Stock ecu's alone are 2k. Just bushings are 2k. etc. etc. How do I know this? I have a 348 about as fast as it can get for the track and to get faster the 355C is more economical than trying to make the 348 faster | |||
| steve coleby (Ferraridriver)
Junior Member Username: Ferraridriver Post Number: 157 Registered: 6-2003 |
Justin The graph does not show 365 BHP. it seems to show about 350 BHP? I may be just stupid. Cheers Steve | |||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 356 Registered: 7-2002 |
And also who did the work thanks | |||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 355 Registered: 7-2002 |
Justin i would be interested as well | |||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 177 Registered: 2-2003 |
So JRK, if you dont mind me asking, what did it cost? Specifically: 1. Dimex / H&S Electronik Engine Upgrades ECU/Ignition/Injection Mapping Upgrade, Adjustable Bosch Fuel Regulator Upgrade, NGK Platinum Racing Plugs, Gas Flowed heads with polished valves & seats. So far I've gone for Tubi manifolds and Test Pipes (no cats) * K&N and that 'seems' to have made quite a difference but I haven't yet got around to getting it Dyno'd. I am presuming that everything but the new heads and valves probably wasnt that expensive? I guess your 'free flowing' exhaust means you are running the straight pipes as well? Interested in where you sourced the chip(or is there two since there are 2 ecus?) Thanks Gordo | |||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 863 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have 365 BHP from 348...  The graph represents the Power Output of the L30 JRK - F348 Spyder L30 JRK - F348 Performance Data 0-100 km/h - 4.7 sec / 0-60 mph - 4.6 sec Top speed is 295 Km/h / 183 mph Max Rpm Limit - 8200 rpm Max Power Output � 269 Kw / 365 bhp (PS) at 7,800 rpm Max Torque � 375Nm / 278 lbs/ft at 5,200 rpm Graph Representation Data Blue Line represents the standard Power Output Red Line represents the increase Power Output � ECU/Ignition/Injection Mapping Upgrade ONLY Further Power Output increase � As per Performance Upgrades listed below L30 JRK - F348 Performance Upgrades 1. Dimex / H&S Electronik Engine Upgrades ECU/Ignition/Injection Mapping Upgrade, Adjustable Bosch Fuel Regulator Upgrade, Tubi Design Non Cat- 316L Polished Stainless Steel �Free Flowing� Exhaust System, Optimisation of Airflow with K&N Filter System, NGK Platinum Racing Plugs, Gas Flowed heads with polished valves & seats. 2. Fiorano Handling Set-up Ventilated Tarox Brakes Disc, 4-Pot Brembo Callipers, Momo 18� Light Alloy (8.5 & 10.0) Rims, Bilstein Adjustable Dampers, Eibach Sport Coil Springs with anti-roll bar re-configurations. | |||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 727 Registered: 5-2002 |
I don't see you making the 400 hp # with an inexpensive solution except nos. The other choices are in the $20k range I would guess | |||
| Jo�o Matela (Johnny_cj)
New member Username: Johnny_cj Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2003 |
The Ferrari 348 is my favourite. I would like to know the kind of tuning the engine would need in order to reach a reliable 400 hp or higher with improved torque, without diminishing the engine's reliability. turbo and non-turbo options. will it be possible to achive or even surpass the F355 with a not very expensive tuning? Thanks. |
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