| Author | Message | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 811 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hmmm, I've 1 plug that looks pretty white, I'm going to put in a new fuel injector, hopefully that will take care of it. The only othewr thing I can think of is a massive vacuum leak, and that would mean pulling the intake back off. Hopefully it's just the injector. | ||
| Jeffrey Davison (Jeffdavison)
Junior Member Username: Jeffdavison Post Number: 222 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mark, Keep me up to date on that tensioner. I haven't even started to think of mine yet, but the one that helps support the snout sounds like the bees knees. Maybe another 2fer? Jeff | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 806 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ernie, I didn't go with a cogged belt because the blower supplier says not to. If the engine pops back, a ribbed belt will slip, but a cogged belt will break the rotors. It works like a mechanical fuse I guess. Your right about the tires, next time I go I'll take the slicks with me, they're soft roadrace not drag slicks, but still way better than street tires. I just ordered a couple boxes of NGK BPR9ES plugs, hopefully I'll have them for the weekend. I couldn't find any place local that had them. Also I looked at it a little today and I think I can build the new tensioner so it also supports the snout on the blower to keep it from flexing, hopefully that will clear up the belt slipping. I want to autocross it on Sunday at and I'd like to have it back at full boost by then. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 846 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey Mark, Why not just go to a cogged tooth belt? That way you don't get any slip at all. How about trying some stickies for the strip? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 804 Registered: 5-2002 |
So, after talking with a couple friends, the consensus is that the problem is definitely detonation and I have it because only an idiot (me) would run the stock heat range plugs with a supercharger. It looks like I need to drop 2 heat ranges and that should fix it. It happened at peak hp because that is where the heat generation rate is the highest, the plug were probably glowing which cause the pre-ignition. It if was a timing issue, it probably would have happened at peak torque where cylinder pressure is the highest. I�ll put in colder plug and see what happens, it still may want me to pull the timing back a little. I�m also going to try adding another idler to my drive belt to make it wrap around the blower pulley further. That may give it the grip it needs. If that doesn�t work, I�ll need to go up to 14 ribs, but that means making all new pulleys. Also, when I said that with the car rolling at 2000 rpm pushing the throttle just flat tears the tires loose, I forgot to mention that is in 2nd gear, I didn�t get a chance to try third yet. | ||
| Warren Balla (West662)
Junior Member Username: West662 Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2003 |
Great Job Mark. P.S. The wheels look fantastic. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2843 Registered: 10-2002 |
Very interesting. Good luck. Please keep posting. Best Jim | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 802 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well, not a good day. I got to the track late, about 12. Finally got to run at about 3:30. It ran a 2.02 second 60 foot, not too bad on street tires and I smoked them a little off the line....then the blower belt started slipping badly by about 7000 rpm and the car fell on it's face and limped to a 19.9. I found 4 broken spark plugs, the ceramic was detached way up inside and just bouncing around on the electrode. Maybe detonation??? Maybe autolite plugs just suck?? I had it set quite rich and I didn't see the tell-tale aluminum specks on the plugs. I don't know. I do know there is no way to run 20 psi on a 10 rib belt, 12 psi was fine, for 15 it had to be pretty tight, and at 20psi there is no amount of tension that will make it work. I changed the plugs and it drove home fine. I'll do a leakdown on it just to be sure, but it seems fine. At 20 psi, with the car rolling a long at about 2000 rpm, pushing the throttle to the floor just tears the tires loose...I need to figure out what went wrong and get it fixed. I'm putting it back down to 15 psi for the mean time. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 801 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ernie, I think you're giving me too much credit...I've never had much sence when it come to building fast things. However, ferrari engines are very strong. They come stock with most of the parts you would need to add to lesser cars. The only things I have done inside the engine is valve springs with a little more seat pressure and gapless rings. I thing everything else is fine. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 841 Registered: 11-2001 |
Mark I know, you know what your are doing, and have put lots of work into this thing to make it work. Other than lowering the compression, and adding the intercooler what else did you do to ensure that the engine doesn't grenade under the boost? Just curious. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 799 Registered: 5-2002 |
The 3.5" pulley does fit. The tensioner is almost at the end of it's travel...I'll need to drill a new hole, but it's good for now. I think that will put the boost between 18-20 and push the hp to 600 +/-...we'll see. A guy at work just bought one of the new g-tech-pros. It's supposed to make hp curves, I just need to get the cars weight right and it measures acceleration and gets the engine rpm from the cigarette lighter somehow. Hopefully the scale at the strip will be working Saturday. I won't be able to get to a real dyno for at least 2-3 weeks. I guess the mph from the strip is a good why to estimate hp too, so I�ll have confirmation. I had the fuel pressure at 40 psi, so the injectors were flowing about 45 lb/hr. I bumped it up to 50, so they should be at about 52 lb/hr now, so the fuel maps should be about right at full throttle, but I'll need to lean them out everywhere else. It's raining tonight, so it will need to wait until the weather clears up....I can't wait to see what it does. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 798 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mitch, yes, agree to all. I was told that the 308 trans parts, although different, look the same at the TR trans parts, shaft diameters, gear widths, ect..., so I'm hoping they have a similar torque rating. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1209 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mark: I agree with you that the transmission bearings may be designed to a certain RPM limitation. As are many other kinds of bearings. I also agree that to get your kind of HP out of a NA engine that it would have to spin north of 9000 and bearings would suffer. If you look into aftermarket transmissions for a muscle car, the manufactures rate them based on TQ not on HP. And there is a good reason for this. When you strip down a broken transmission and find missing teeth on the gears, its a sure sign that TQ overwhelmed the metalurgy of the gears. If you find that the bearings are all burned up it is a sign that the transmission was transmitting more HP that it was designed for (or cooled for). So while one can always add more cooling and allow a transmission to withstand more HP, the same cannot be said for TQ. For illustrative purposes only. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 795 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mitch, that's basically what I'm thinking...although I went and doubled the torque...the best I can figure on the 400 number is that to get it a naturally aspirated engine would need to be up around 9000 rpm on bearings and shafts intended for 7700. I think that is the heart of the problem. James, I honestly don't know what it will run. I've only even been to the strip a couple times in my life, but a couple guys from work are going and talked me into taging along. I was tinking mid to low 11's...a 10 is really fast. I do have a 3.5" blower pulley that could push the boost to 18-20 (and spin the blower right to it's redline), that might get me in the 10's, but I'm not sure if I can tension the belt. I'm going to try it tomorrow I think, I'll need to raise the fuel presure if I can make that pulley work....I guess I was probably the only one who believed me the other day when I said it was done.... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2797 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark What do you think you'll run? If you can get traction I bet under 11. The only thing I'd do seriously is a 288 treatment in the rear. Do it in alum your car is too special for glass. I think you also deserve shields. Best | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1205 Registered: 4-2002 |
Point of reference: " "if you go over 400 hp XXX will break" " Torque breaks things. HPower burns things up. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 794 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think I'm going to go get 1/4 mile times on saturday at maple grove...anybody want to come?? http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/329487.html?1066179029 | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 792 Registered: 5-2002 |
Paul, I guess anything can be done, it's more a question of what should be done... James, thanks, it's been a lot of work. I've got the shocks, ohlins STJ with pretty stiff springs on them. I also have a set of 2 piece slotted brembo rotors, 355mm front, 332 rear, I still need to get them on the car. The tires are 225-18 and 285-18 on 550 wheels. It has a 288 front valance and bumper....now I just need the tube frame....it will never compare to your P4 though no matter what I do to it. I put on the 4" pulley today. The boost is up to 15 psi, but the air temp didn't move off 120F, I think because it was a touch cooler out today. It seems to be running great, I want to spend a little more time on the maps just to be sure everything is right, but I think it's done. I just need to get it to the dyno it see where it really is. The calculator says about 530 at that temp and pressure. Paul's can actually was on the dyno and did 450 at 15 psi, but without knowing the air temp I can't compare. So I think I can say it's at least 450, but I need to get it to the dyno. There is still plenty of room to up the boost, but I need to make new pulleys, and it;s just so nice as is....maybe over the winter after I get the new brakes on. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2772 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark You have done an amazing thing. What you now have to do is build a tube frame. Put on 4 good cornors and brakes, put your engine, or one like it, in lengthwise, fit a strong transaxle, and fit a body that looks like a 288GTO or for the old guys like me a P4... | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 139 Registered: 3-2003 |
YES MARK I agree. The driveline in the 308 is quite strong and James Patterson is quite knowledgable in this area. I am sure you drive your car like me? meaning no burnouts and 2nd 3rd and 4th gear chirps. :-) My tranny is stock. just a kevlar clutch & lightened flywheel. F1 gearbox? hmmmmmm can it be done? if so. I am in!!! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 790 Registered: 5-2002 |
I've gotten a lot of conflicting input on the driveline so I just plain don't know. I heard several "if you go over 400 hp XXX will break" stories. It was never the same part though. Before I started this, I spoke to Norwood about a turbo and they told me they had built a couple 800hp track cars that were running totally stock drivelines and another handfull of 600+ cars. Maybe Paul will chime in, but I think he has a stock drive line except the clutch. A supercharged engine is probably harder on things than a turbo because the power is instant, but honestly, I just don't know. I guess I'm just hoping it stays together, if not it gives me the excuse I'm looking for to transplant a sequectial or F1 gearbox  | ||
| C.C.ofAtlanta (Atlantaman)
Member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 273 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mark--watch your differential VERY CLOSELY!!! From experience I can tell you that anything above 400hp will make the differential eat its way out of the transaxle!!!!! Please take the time to do EXTENSIVE welding to build up your metal in the area and go to larger bolts | ||
| chaz richards (Chaa)
Junior Member Username: Chaa Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2003 |
From my days of rodding i learnt that you try and replace and uprate as much as you can,but when you venture into new territory like supercharging a ferrari lets say,every thing else is ON GOING which includes things like gearboxes if it breaks fix it but better than before.One could also say the same about the drive shaft twisting ect ect. I think the dude needs commending,he is doing all the development work so to make it easier and less expensive for those who follow. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1733 Registered: 4-2002 |
Aren't you worried about the gearbox? I can't imagine a 308 with that kind of HP. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 787 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tim, Thanks. I�ll see what I can do about video clips (with sound). I don�t have anyway to make one, I�ll need to borrow a different camera....then figure out how to post it...I�ve just never found the time to learn much about this kind of stuff, but I�ll see what I can do, give me a few days. I can tell you that it actually sounds more tame that it did, the blower noise is lower frequency and doesn't seem as loud. | ||
| Timothy Fulmer (Tf308)
New member Username: Tf308 Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ok mark, we all know you are the mechanical genius and I can probably say for the entire group that this has been one of the best threads I have read...so please can't you provide some video clips? ( I think I still have your old one on the dyno and I am dying to see and here this) I think you need to have a dedicated ride day when this thing is ready. Lets get it in Forza. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 785 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill, At 600 I hope ....I just can't have passengers recovering in only 1 year | ||
| Bill V (Doc)
Member Username: Doc Post Number: 450 Registered: 9-2001 |
God Almighty, Mark--where will it end! I'm still recovering from the ride you gave me last year with the single blower! I'd love to hear that thing scream and see it devour everything on the road. Thumbs up, Mark---I've said it before and I'll say it again--you are one mean mechanical genius. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 782 Registered: 5-2002 |
It�s intercooled. In fact it looks like I�m intercooling the bajesus out of it. That and it is using more air then I though it would. The boost was passing 15 at less than � throttle, now at full throttle it�s 12 psi with the manifold air temp steady at 120F after 10 back to back full throttle 2nd gear pulls. My calculator says that is good for 460-480 hp. It looks like the intercooler is at about 85% effective which is really good. I was only using 70% in my sizing calculations. Also, it looks like the engine is using 1.35 cfm per hp, I was getting 1.4 with the old blower, but I didn�t believe it and thought the belt must slipping, 1.2 is the number the blower guys gave me. What that means is I don�t think I have the right pulleys. I have a 4.5� on the blower now, my smallest is a 4�, but it looks like that will push the engine to about 530-550 hp, when I thought it would be over 600. My injectors are at 80% right now to keep the mixture where I want to see it, more than I thought they should be, 85% is the recommended limit. I may need to increase the fuel pressure to get more flow out of them. That will mean doing the fuel maps over because they are based on fuel pressure being a constant. Did I mention this car is really fast now?? | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 133 Registered: 3-2003 |
thats the plan Mark I appreciate all your input and compliments. p.s. I love the color of your car | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 779 Registered: 5-2002 |
Paul, Thanks. I just asked about the temp because it limits you on boost due to octane and knock, and I just wondered how much room there was to go up. It sure sounds like the car is about perfect as is. I would think the thing to do is drive and enjoy it. Then when you just can't stand it anymore, send it back to have the valve springs changed and have them add 100 hp while they're at it | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 131 Registered: 3-2003 |
you right Mark it is absoulutely tuned for perfection right now. the 18psi # is for valve float. Would hate to screw it up over a couple of lbs of boost. Norwood says hold what I have. Never have enough HP!! don't know manifold air temp @ 15psi? NORWOOD recorded all that data on the dyno. Will call James tomorrow and ask for the data. I guess i should be happy for what I have. I am!! Thanks for the compliments on the photos. Yours are quite awesome as well!! your turn a hellava wrench!! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 777 Registered: 5-2002 |
Paul, it sounds awesome! The pics you post were fabulous too. So you�re at 15 now and are thinking about 18?? Do you know what the manifold air temp is at 15? Are you thinking 18 because of valve float or is ti just a number? Now that it�s tuned to perfection, changing to a 3 bar map may screw it up. I don�t know what the programming is like on your ECU, but with mine the maps would be wrong after the change. I would need to look at what value goes with what manifold pressure on the current map, then manually move the data to a new map for the 3 bar sensor, then guess at the points above 2 bar and head to a dyno to see how close I got. That�s why I said it seemed like a lot work for 1 or 2 psi. You may have a better unit that understands better than mine. BTW, someone is calling you on general http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/327715.html?1065840973 | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 776 Registered: 5-2002 |
James, That is a very good question. I know some of the drag guys like to run the fuel through an ice box. I saw an engine run that way on a dyno and it gained nothing. I could see that heating the fuel might help it vaporize and stop it from puddling either at the valve or in the manifold. I know that most US cars build with carbs had the coolant flowing though the intake to heat it for this reason, but that hurts performance. Maybe ferrari figured they could get most of the benefit without the performance loss by just heating the fuel?? That's my best guess, but it is a guess. | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 129 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mark, variable boost controller 52lb injectors secondary fuel pump & fuel press regulator second fuel pump comes on after 7 psi lots of fuel need more boost!! 3 more lbs not worth it I guess? going to run the car on 100LL AVGAS tomorrow. Although the car is "quite snappy" 3rd gear at 15psi is amazing!!!!!! BOB Norwood personally tuned my car. put nearly 200 miles on the dyno. He did not want to get too lean on this project hence I have way more fuel than I need. The car has amazing driveability. I am very please with what NORWOOD did. The workmanship and quality of the job is spectacular. James Patterson is a Master!! your car looks great and job well done!! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2765 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mark Help me with one thing. On my P4 the engine cooling is used to HEAT the fuel. I believe my TR used the AC lines to heat the fuel as well. Why would F do this? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 771 Registered: 5-2002 |
That had to be my worst spelled post ever... | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 770 Registered: 5-2002 |
Phil, I am seriously thinking about a water sprayer the the IC because I like to autocross, so speed and air flow are low, but hp use and heat are high. I thought I'd see where I am without it and then decide. Knowing me, if I get the chage trmp down, I'll end up changing pulley and pushing the boost up. My calculaotr says that if I run a sprayer, I could push the bnoost to about 30 psi.... I do still have A/C, mostly. I bought a better condenser, but still need to install it and recharge the system. And I'm putting the heat exchangers for the IC in the wheel wells where the heater&A/C blower motors were, I need to remount them in the front trunk I guess. I hadn't thought at all about a fuel cooler. I wonder how much it helps?? I have been considering a fuel pump voltage controler to slow down the monster pump I put in so it doesn't heat the fuel any more than it has to. I guess I need to look into a cooler and do some math. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 232 Registered: 7-2003 |
Mark When you get your intercooler running, will you also fit a water spray kit to it? And have you considered using a fuel cooler? The spanish and Oz spec 360 N-GT cars use a 5 row oil cooler as a fuel cooler, and in high ambients it's well worth something. A more efficient fuel cooler that uses the a/c system pipework is great and easy to install, but you need a/c...have you still got yours? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 769 Registered: 5-2002 |
James, Thanks David, I'll get hp numbers and post them as soon as I can....and clearly I need to learn to leave well enough alone while there are still ferrari parts on the car. Paul, I don't know why that would be or why they think that. There is less resolution so the maps need to be better. If you just want 1 or 2 psi over,I don't know if it's worth messing with, but 4-5 psi more is a big hp increase. I thought it was odd that you told me you had 52 lb or 55 lb injectors too. Normally I'd expect to find 52 lb injectors in a 600+ hp high boost engine or 800 naturally aspirated. Just different ways of looking at the problem I guess. Ernie, yes, I was very bad. Philip, I rechecked the temp and it's 220, but I'm only in the boost for short stints. I looked at the compressor map for the blower and it says 265F at 15 psi. The heavy copper intercooler core is probably acting like a big heat sink and the temp would climb to the 265 number if I stayed in the throttle. About 265 is where I was running the old system though. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2757 Registered: 10-2002 |
Way,Way,Cool. Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| David N (Nboy)
New member Username: Nboy Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2003 |
Mark, I just looked at the radiators in your car on another thread. Your engine compartment is becoming an engineering masterpiece. For an engineering geek like myself, it is getting more intriguing and interesting with every detail. When you get the bugs out, I still want to see hp numbers! David | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 128 Registered: 3-2003 |
I was told by NORWOOD that a three bar MAP would make my car run like crap and it would lose the daily driveability that it has now? sounds untrue from your experience? | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 837 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hummmmm so are you saying that a 350z was the first victim. If so, that had to have put a smile on your face. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 767 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rob, thanks...it's been a long road... Paul, Yes, 3 bar map sensor. | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 127 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mark do you have a 3 bar MAp sensor for boost above 15psi? | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 838 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mark, Congratulations, job well done. Thank you for sharing such detail. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 766 Registered: 5-2002 |
You carb guys.... I was just out looking for some fittings and hose for the IC, the pep boys near me is remodeling and was out of everything. Got to the other one in time to watch them lock up. So I'm ready annoyed when a 350Z with nos stickers pasted all over it pulls along side me at the light.... I think he understands he has more work to do.... | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 572 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hans Here is a picture of our fuel injection:  best rt | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 765 Registered: 5-2002 |
| ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1727 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oh, uh, yeah. Works just like my Webers, right? <jk> | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 764 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hans, No, that's part of the power of electronic fuel injection. The ECU reads rpm, manifold pressure and manifold air temp, then calculates the mass airflow. It then corrects the injector time (fuel flow rate) accordingly. So the mixture stays correct regardless of temperature, barometer, altitude changes, or in this case, an intercooler coming online. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1726 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mark: Just curious.... Since the air charge should be a little denser/cooler with the intercooler, does this affect your mixture settings any? Will you have to richen it up a bit? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 763 Registered: 5-2002 |
Russ, I'd forgotten how much I love driving this car. It's pretty snappy now. The blower noise is a little deeper than the old one and shows up at about 6-7 psi. I'm still being somewhat gentle with it most of the time until all the bugs are sorted out, but it is very noticably quicker than with the roots blower. It just pulls like an animal right from idle. I'm very happy so far. I drove it to work and on errands today without any signs of problems, just a few minor tuning things. I think I'm going to give it a little less timing under vacuum and maybe shut fuel off on deceleration because it pops back a little. Really nice overall though. Philip, The timing's at 26 degrees for full boost. The inlet charge is 220F I think, I'll confirm that next time the computer is plugged in. With the old roots blower, 10 psi gave a 260+ (I get an out of range alarm at 260, and I had it). I normally run 93 octane, although I have 94 in the tank at the moment. These engines tolerate boost very well. On to the intercooler... | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 474 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mark Even with a modest CR engine like the 308s, 15 psi w/o an IC (for either a supercharger or a turbo) seems extraordinary on pump gas. What timing are you running? | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 568 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sounds fantastic! In the (mythical) words of Chris Economaki: "So what's it like out there, Mario?" We want details! Congrats! rt | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 762 Registered: 5-2002 |
OK, I changed the the plugs and it seemed pretty good, so I took it out on the road again. Then came the smoke.....from the tires! Victory is mine It's looks like its at about 15 psi at 3500 rpm and climbing. I don't want to put past the 15 until the intercooler is online. Tomorrow or friday probably. The maps I roughed in the other night doing plug reads were pretty close, I had to add some fuel at the bottom, but otherwise not bad. I'll do some more fine tuning after the IC project. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 834 Registered: 11-2001 |
Mark have you checked the plug wires? I didn't see you mention that you checked to see if the plug wires were in good shape. Just a thought. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 761 Registered: 5-2002 |
The battery fixed it. It still wants to drop cylinders, I think new plugs are in order. As a note, the one I have in now are AC and the compression rings tend to fall off when I pull the plugs out and need to be extracted from the holes with a magnet, back to champion. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 760 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jeff, I had a similar thought. Both the old and new injectors are sold as high impedence, but the new ones are 12 ohm, where the old were 14 I think. So they do draw a little more power. The front and back are on the same ECU channel, but different drivers. I think I would expect the drivers to fail if I over power it and I wouldn't expect them to fail together or at idle when the injectors are hardly working. I was thinking I should bring an oscope home from work just to be sure though. I just hate when things like this happen. | ||
| Jeffrey Davison (Jeffdavison)
Junior Member Username: Jeffdavison Post Number: 220 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mark, New injectors? Maybe the impedence is wrong. I don't know what the Haltech allows for, but some ecu's don't like switching from Hi to Low impedence injectors or vice versa. Just a thought. Jeff | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 759 Registered: 5-2002 |
OK, I'm wondering if somebody secretly replaced my car with some sort of an auto-tech school trouble shooting test....I started the tuning and everything looked good. I was about to take it out when I noticed the O2 readings were a little erratic, usually means it dropping cylinders. I shut it off and pulled the plugs, but they all looked good. Tried to restart, spins but not firing. Pull a couple plugs, clean and dry, looks like no fuel. Fuel pressure is good. Voltage to all the injectors and the wires to the ECU checked good. Just to be sure, I pulled out the timing light and saw action from all 4 coils. I doubled the injector times and tried again, plugs still dry, but I did notice that computer was showing only about 7 volts while the engine was cranking. I'm thinking that the new injectors are pretty big and that may not be enough to open them. I remembered the battery connections didn�t look that good, so I went to clean them and the positive battery post came off with the wire. I�ll get a new one tomorrow, hopefully that will straighten it out, but I don�t think it explains why it got erratic to begin with. I still may have a bad connection or ground in the ECU power. This will teach me to let the car sit a year without being driven, all kinds of strange stuff going wrong and none of it seems to have anything to do with what I worked on. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 758 Registered: 5-2002 |
OK, front exhaust cam off 1 tooth, intermitant connection to the front bank of injectors. I get good readings from the O2 sensor. Now the trouble is getting it to idle below 1500 even with the idle screw removed. The vacuum gage says 22 inHG. I'm hoping the throttle plate will seat a bed in and seal a little bed with time, maybe wishful thinking. Now I can get back to tuning it...and driving it. Ernie, if they have ears they'll now, the whine is unmistakeable and quite pronouced...after I get into the throttle that is. It sounds stock until the boost gage is on the plus side. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 439 Registered: 7-2002 |
nice write up Mark! Yes, I got quite a bit out of that. I'll digest it for a while and see if it all makes good sense before I ask for more. Thanks again. Your idea about the cam belts is a good one- that's where I'd start. Let us know how it turns out. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 833 Registered: 11-2001 |
Mark you are the man! Once you have that thing dialed in all the time and frustration is gonna be so worth it. Sweet job. I hope everything goes smooth for the fine tuning. I can't wait to hear the stories of the cars that get eatin-up. I can just hear your thoughts, "heheheee, they have no idea". Awesome work bro! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 755 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jerry, thanks...550 wheels, and they went on kicking and screeming the whole way | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 754 Registered: 5-2002 |
Update My car is acting very strange. I was have O2 sensor problems, so I ordered a new one...but I want to play, so I went to the auto parts store and found one with the right threads and plug. I put it in and got the same numbers as the old one. Also, the the car just doesn't pull, I've been very light on the throttle, so I didn't realy notice it at first. The front bank plugs are way richer than the back. When I put in enough fuel to get color in the rear plugs the cat starts glowing. Compression on #1 is 170, #5 is 150. I pulled the rear cam belt cover and the cams are right on. I'll pull the front apart tomorrow, I think the front cam belt jumped, it's the only thing I can think of??? Gary, thanks. I keep thinking about doing kits. It's the pricing that keeps me thinking. I non intercooled kit would need to be price about $8k, intercooled up over $12k. And then it's difficult to install, maybe 20 hours for th e non intercooled, double that with the IC. I'm just not sure there's really a market. Most people seem to be thinking $5k and 6 hours...but I don't know how to do that. I might be able to mount the blower on the side of the engine so you keep your stock intake and cooling plumbing. That would get it down closer to $6.5k I think, just not quite as neat a package IMO. Jeff, I am using a haltech E6K ECU, which I guess haltech just replace with the E6X, very similar though. I have never messed with a motec, but I have played with a couple other brands and the principles are all the same. I start with no load on the engine (car in neutral, constant rpm- about 14-16 inHg vacuum) and low rpm I play with the fuel until I have good O2 readings and plug color. Then I increase the rpm by 500, hold it steady and check the readings. Then another 500 until the whole rpm range is mapped. Now I have 1 point on every rpm map that is real. I smooth the maps out using the points I just found and the car is drivable. Then because I don�t have a dyno (acceleration dyno won�t do, it must be a load dyno), I drive the car. It curses at 5-10 inHg vacuum, so I use that as my next point. By using different gears, you can get must of the rpms, any I don�t get I interpolate from the ones I did get. Then I smooth the maps again using the 2 points I know. Next I set the computer to record and do accelerations watching the manifold pressure and trying to hold it about constant all the way up to redline. I look at the O2 readings from the recording then go into the maps the correct and smooth the maps using the 3 points. Then repeat at a higher pressure, correct, smooth, ect. I like to have at least 5 points to for the maps. The haltech can run closed loop and IMO that�s the best way to run a street car. I set the closed loop to cut out at about 20% throttle, basically when you�re clearly accelerating so the mixture can go rich which makes it pull better. So I use a standard narrow band O2 sensor because they are by far the most accuate for closed loop operation. It�s hard to tell the difference between 12 or 12.5 but really that is plenty close enough, it will pull good and won�t damage any thing. I take it to the dyno to do the final full throttle stuff and tune for best hp, I don�t care what the O2 sensor says at that point, I only look at hp numbers, the mixture will be what it will be. The one I have is a GM part, because that is the plug the haltech wiring harness had, motecs use all bosch stuff don�t they??? I would just find out what is compatible with your ECU and use it. I do all my tuning with the laptop online sitting in the passenger seat so I have all data from all the sensors as well the timing and fuel displayed. For tuning, I use only the info on the computer screen, not the cars gages because that is the info the ECU is using to run the engine. So I take the boost/vacuum straight from the map sensor read out. The boost gage I have I bought from JC whitney for about $20 mainly because it looked similar to the stock gages. I don�t trust it, I just use it as a reference to clue me that something may be wrong. For timing the ECU, I mounted an aluminum disk to the back of the flywheel. I put 4 magnets in the disk, 3 are south pole out, one is north pole out which give me my #1 cylinder indication as well as 4 trigger points. Then I put a pickup in to the hole that I pulled on e of the 2 factory pick-ups out of. It�s a haltech pick-up, hall effect I think. That�s it. I run waste spark (spark into the exhaust). I would need to add a cam position sensor to go to true direct fire ignition to know if #1 is on compression or exhaust. The haltech will read almost any triggers, I did this because it seemed pretty easy, not that it was better than other choices. The fuel pressure is controlled by a fuel pressure regulator, not the pump. Mine is mounted near the shock on the right side of the engine bay, it shows in the pic I posted. So as long as the pump you have in the tank is big enough, you just need a regulator. If the pump is too small, you can go to a big pump outside the tank or add a small second pump that kicks on at some boost level to supplement. I used 1 big pump because I like to have the fewest # of parts I can. But the pump I have does heat up the fuel in the tank it�s pumping so much � the path is tank, pump, rails, regulator, tank. If you use 2 pumps, your pumping a lot less fuel most of the time because you don�t need it, then when you do the second pump kick in. They do make voltage controllers to slow down the pump, so I could add that and stop heating my fuel. It�s just preference I guess. I like less parts. If I missed anything or it�s not specific enough, ask again or shot me an email or a phone # | ||
| Jerry Slagle (Slag_328gts)
Junior Member Username: Slag_328gts Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2003 |
Nice work - Also love the color of the car. Not sure I've ever seen 355 wheels on a 308. | ||
| Gary Reed (Gary_reed)
Junior Member Username: Gary_reed Post Number: 206 Registered: 2-2002 |
Mark, congrats on getting the new supercharger installed and running! The plenum and everything looks great. Are you planning on eventually selling a blower "kit" to other QV owners? | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 437 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mark, Thanks for the reply. The car looks beautiful as well. If you don't mind a few questions about your discription of the tuning? What O2 sensor have you been using to determine Fuel/Air mixture? I'd guess a more accurate one than is generally found for run of the mill Fuel/ Air gauges? Also, You run the engine under "no-load" all the way to red line? Then street tune it? I'm guessing you're using a haltech box? It is quite like my MoTeC? Sounds the same as for the graghing capability. Next time I tune my twin turbo, I'd like to use TWO O2 sensors, one for each side would enable me to check the turbos for equal efficiency and boost levels. I'll also need to have my MoTeC box upgraded to do data logging so I can access all the info. Also, the car has NO O2 sensors on it at all right now, nor does it have a BOOST GUAGE! I need both. What would you recommend? How did you set up timing recognition? Do you have a crank trigger wheel sensor and a cam sensor, or two crank trigger wheel sensors? Is it electromotive? If so, do the plugs fire on the exhaust stroke also? On your fuel pressure setup: Since my car has an in tank pump and not an external pump like yours; how do I adjust my fuel pressure with a system that will provide me adjustable fuel pressure? Must this be done by replacing the internal pump with an external unit? Or, can I simply add an external pump to my setup? I dig the braided lines. PS I was over at Tom Frances's house yesterday and saw his rebuild job in the final stages. WOW! The powder is overwhelming. Everyone look out for pics on F-Chat soon. You'll be amazed! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 753 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks guys. I didn't can the intercooler working today since my daily drive mostly died, but I did get the 308 out...I'm still in the "be gentile" mode, but it�s making over 10 lbs of boost at 1500 rpm, I backed off at 10 at other rpms. When I fired it up yesterday, I noticed to O2 sensor data was garbage, I need to get a new one before I can make any real progress with tuning. I can't work without the O2 sensor online..too risky. Not a very productive day really. I took a picture of the car. David, honestly, I couldn't figure out how to post anything on the web if my life depended on it. That is just not within my limited skill set..... Jeff, it did not start on the first try�much to my surprise. 30 minutes of trouble shooting found a bad ground on the ignition module. Then it started. I used the old maps to get started. When I did the first set-up, I used maps that came with the ECU, they aren�t close to right, but they get spark and fuel to work to get it running. I figured the ones I had tuned with the last blower would be closer, so I started with them this time. The most important thing is timing. I disable the injectors and get the timing set, just cranking it. Then turn on the injectors. Once it starts, I listen and look at the O2 data while adjusting the fuel settings to keep it running. I let it warm up and get it idling right, around 1000 rpm, then I give it a little throttle and bring it to 1500 and set the mixture there, then 2000, and up. . There is a map every 500 rpm, they are injector time vs. map sensor. Once the no load mixture is set all the way to redline, I linearize the maps using the point I just found and 7 ms (about 90% duty cycle for the injector, which should be nice and rich). Now it�s ready to drive. I take it on the highway, and again using the O2 data, set the mixture under light load all the way to redline. I go stay to 14.7 A/F under these conditions. Then I pull over and linearize between the first points and the new points, so the graph is now 2 lines instead of one the car will drive pretty well at this point, but under power it is still very rich. Next is harder throttle stuff, so what I do is set the computer to record, and hit the record button and the throttle, then pull over to see what it says and correct the maps. The last time I picked 12.5:1 air/fuel for full power, later the dyno said 13 was better. The maps for every rpm look pretty much the same, so the rough tuning goes pretty fast. Then I work on off idle, cold starting, ect. It goes pretty fast, if the O2 sensor is working, without it, it�s a nightmare involving the plugs coming out a lot to look at the color�I need to get the O2 sensor on line, I�m just not comfortable doing anymore without it. My wife come home from vacation next Sunday, so this needs to be wrapped up by then...   | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 116 Registered: 3-2003 |
WAY TO GO!! Congrats Can't wait to race you!! | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 435 Registered: 7-2002 |
Bravo Mark!! I've been following the thread closely. So, did it start on the first try? If not what adjustments were made and, how did you determine things like INTITIAL fuel mapping with the new blower on? I'd love to read any details you might feel motivated to bestow upon us........... Congrats!! Jeff | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 406 Registered: 12-2002 |
Mark, Been following the progress in the other thread - I bet you must be chuffed! - I am sure I would be after a year of hard work! Keep us all posted on the results! Paul | ||
| David (Nboy)
New member Username: Nboy Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2003 |
Been following your progress and it looks like a great engineering feet! Would love it if you put the entire process on a website with details on how you did it. I be interested to see some final numbers, hp at the wheels, 0-60, 1/4mi, etc., and almostas important, a seat of the pants impression compared to the original. Looks fantastic! It gives me hope that modifying my own cars is a possibility. David | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 553 Registered: 2-2003 |
Woo-Hoo!! Looks great. Simply brilliant in planning and execution. Can't wait to hear of the development test drives. Congrats!! rt | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 750 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Bill. The hood fits with 5/16" over the horse, 3/8" everywhere else using the crush the clay method. I'll sleep better tonight now. I was kind of worried, I hadn't included the horse in any calculations. I think it was an "it's better to be lucky than good". I hope it's enough when the engine's bouncing around, it seems like it should be. The back of the car was sitting a little high after I changed shocks last year and I never got around to adjusting it, so I took care of that while it was on the jacks. The rear didn't seem to have the grip it should, I'm hoping the ride height adjustment fixes it. I printed the autocross schedule yesterday, looks like there is something every weekend until nov 22..... On to the intercooler stuff. | ||
| Bill V (Doc)
Member Username: Doc Post Number: 444 Registered: 9-2001 |
Hooray! Glad to hear of this news, Mark. Can't wait to hear the results of road tests and dyno runs. You deserve the fastest ride around! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 749 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well after almost a year, it's alive and purring!...time for a beer... I still need to get the cooling loop for the intercooler online, mount the hood (god I hope I measured right), and do some tuning (OK a lot of tuning). Hopefully it will be ready to test drive tomorrow.  |