| Author |
Message |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 704
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 3:53 pm: | |
Tim..The protection relay does not control the pulse width of the metering valve. The large injection e.c.u is what determines the pluse width of the metering valve by comparing o2 sensor readings and throttle position. The protection relay basic does what it's name implys. It protects the injection e.c.u from voltage spikes or anyother electrical malfuction that could damage the e.c.u. The relay can and will crap-out intermitantly as you have experianced, and could also cause a bad connection to the e.c.u for power, thus limiting the effectiveness of the e.c.u. for controling the metering valve. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 2:55 pm: | |
Here are the results of the repair:
I installed the relay last night and the car runs better than it ever has since I purchased it 4 months ago.
I asked a friend who is an elec engineer if this relay could have been malfuctioning and sending a poor signal (pulse width) to the metering valve. He said it is very possible. Given the fact that the car runs crisper and stronger than ever before, I have to say this relay gradually degraded over time, causing the symtoms I described earlier, until it failed completly.
|
John A (Jarends)
Member
Username: Jarends
Post Number: 305
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 8:21 am: | |
We delivered the 328 to our mechanic yesterday and although it started rough, sputtering away, it smoothed out and ran great all the way to the garage. Even the mech took it out and said it was running fine. I swear that the car is alive and knows when it's going to the doctor.
Anyway, he seemed to know what I was talking about and will start it this morning.
I told him about this thread. If you're interested, I'll post the results as well.
John |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 9:09 pm: | |
Just a follow up for those following this thread.
I priced out the "protection relay" today.
Ferrari Dealer = $272.00
Porsche dealer = $105.00
Hey, I own a large dealership myself, god bless'em if they can get it. Needless to say, I'm expecting a call from the local Porsche dlr soon. The part number is 928-615-124-00. this is an actual Porsche OEM part number, stamped in the case of the relay. The relay I removed was dated 6/5/1985, indicating to me it was in fact the original part at the time of assembly.
The relay should be here friday the 10th, I will post the results after I install it.
Thanks again Tom.
Tim Mooney |
DGS (Dgs)
Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 383
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 5:11 am: | |
Tim, before replacing the relay, check the fuse! Most of the time it's the fuse mounted on top of the relay that's gone. |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1979
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:58 am: | |
Tom,
Awesome job! You are to be commended. |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 698
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
No problem Tim...Glad I could help you out. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:17 pm: | |
Shaazaam! I made a real jumper and Voila!! The first terminal fired the fuel pump I believe, and the second fired the metering valve. No doubt about it... thats the problem.
Tom, thanks so much for the help. I had really thought I was going to have to take the car to my buddy across town or to the local Ferrari dlr. Time and concern of stranding myself held me off. I am sure glad I found this site, and you, to help me with this diagnosis.
If I can ever return the favor, I deal in fun stuff like motorcycles, ATV's snowmobiles, etc...Just let me know.
Thanks, Tim Mooney |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 697
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:02 pm: | |
D'oh!! Ya thats your problem. You need to find a piece wire that you can use. and jump the terminals directly. Try to avoid the ground terminal(now that we know this is ground) |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:58 pm: | |
Tom, I was just thinking. Keep in mind I can hang a door plumb with just my eyes and a hammer, but when it comes to elec diag... best to keep me away. Nevertheless, I was USING the test light to "jump" these terminals... could this be the problem? when I jumped #1 to ground#2 the light lit up. |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 696
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:51 pm: | |
Hummmm...Very interesting. Do you have a good ground to the relay connector? To test push a small cotter pin in the hot wire terminal. Clip the test light to it. Now probe the ground wire. If it is goo then the test light should light up. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:41 pm: | |
Tom, No luck. Jumped #1 to all w/Ign on = nothing |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 695
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:36 pm: | |
Yup your doing it right. I would try this then. Very carefully just touch #2 with the hot wire. Just a real quick jab and see what happends. I have a good relay that I use for testing. it's been a while since I've had to jump these. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:32 pm: | |
Tom,
#1 terminal is constant power with single brown wire.
#2 two black wires (ground?)
#3 two brown (one w/blk)
#4 one brown
I've jumped #1 to #3 = no buzzing
and also #1 to #4 = no buzzing
you said not to jump power (#1) to #2 ground.
Did I do it right?
Tim
|
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 694
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:22 pm: | |
Well try the 3rd terminal...maybe i have the colors incorrect in my head LOL(wouldn't be the first time) |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:15 pm: | |
Tom, I just tried it. No buzzing. Ign was on, engine off, test light in hot terminal, touched to the other two terminals (not at same time)nothing.. any further suggestions |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 693
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:59 pm: | |
Do you have a test light? If so go to the connector in the car. (leave the relay on the kitchen table). With the ignition on, probe each wire with the test light and note which one has the power. Then find the ground(black) I beleive the brown wires that are tied toeghter on the same terminal are the power wires. Do not jump the power to ground!! You can if you like take a seperate wire and push it into the terminal with the brown wires. You can now lightly and carfully just touch each other terminal in the connector. The valve will start buzzing as soon as you touch the correct terminal. Then you can start the car And see the difference it makes. Just be careful it's not difficult al all to do. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:45 pm: | |
Ok Tom, how about more info for the slow guy.. How can I do that? there are 4 terminals on the relay I've got in my hand... |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 692
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:38 pm: | |
You can bypass the relay to get the valve to work. Then you will beable to see the instant differance it makes. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:35 pm: | |
Tom, I found it. Thanks for your expertise. I will replace it ASAP and post the results.
Thanks, Tim |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:20 pm: | |
Tom, Can I send you a case of beer online? I'm heading out to the garage right now to check it out!
Thanks, Tim |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 691
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:15 pm: | |
Tim..It's under the carpet!! You have to remove the carpet and the foam underpad. You will see 3 10mm bolts. Rmove the bolts and then lift the panel out. Under the panel you will see a motronic box and 4 relays. The largest relay of the bunch with the 10amp fuse in the top is the protection relay!! |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:02 pm: | |
Ok, the plot thickens... I just now took my first look at the car since my original post. I started with the easiest first, checking for arcing from the wires, thinking to progress further if necessary. When I started the car I immediatly knew something was different. It now idles terribly and will not take throttle at all. No arcing from the wires that I could see.
I could not feel or hear any buzzing from the metering valve as Tom had said to look for...= Injection Protection Relay?? Both cylinder banks threw off heat from the time the car was idling... = Both Coils firing?
I cannot locate the relay in the vicinty of the power antenna as Tom has mentioned. Does anyone know exactly where to find this, and how about a part # if someone has recently replaced it. My cell# 248-640-2662, the patient is waiting.
Thanks, Tim Mooney
|
John A (Jarends)
Member
Username: Jarends
Post Number: 304
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:33 am: | |
Tim, my wife's 328 started acting up this summer. starting it up, it would sit and run as if only two cylinders were working, giving it gas would stall the engine. Usually it cleared out, but now the engine runs rough even when warm.
I will be delivering it to our mechanic this Wednesday. It sounds as though you have a similar problem, ie: backfire, sputtering and no power. I thought as Tom does that the coil is going bad. Someone at a car show last year said he carried spare coils around because the 328 was known to have that problem. I believe there are two coils for the 328.
I'll post the results of the repair, maybe if you haven't found it by then it will help.
John |
Jim Lo (Jim_lo)
New member
Username: Jim_lo
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 9:59 pm: | |
Thanks guys I'll give it a try and post the results. |
Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member
Username: Snj5
Post Number: 556
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 5:00 pm: | |
When my injection protection relay went bad the car would barely run at all with no throttle control.
Will put a coke on wires/extenders.
Hope it's easy whatever.
best
rt |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 684
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 4:21 pm: | |
Jim..also if your car idles o.k then I doubt that the protection relay is your problem. You're problem could be ignition related..like a bad plug,wires or coil starting to head south. I would start there. Check all connections at the fuse panel as well. Unplug them if you have to and check to make sure all the connectors are makeing good soild contact with the terminals on the board itself. |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 683
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 4:17 pm: | |
Jim your protection relay is also located under a panel in the trunk on in the right hand side of the trunk. near/ under the power anntena |
Jim Lo (Jim_lo)
New member
Username: Jim_lo
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 1:41 pm: | |
Tom, I have the same problem for my 86 Mondial but only at 3500-4000 RPM, where is the injection protection relay on this car? I've checked the manual and it only states fuel injection and fuel pump relay at the fuse box. |
Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
Junior Member
Username: Kurtk328
Post Number: 232
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 2:14 am: | |
Run the engine in a very dark place and check ignition leads for arcing - especially the HT leads from the coils to the distributor.
Had the same symptoms on my '86 328 - changed all wires - runs perfectly. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 8:19 pm: | |
Dave and Tom,
Thanks to both of you for your help. I'll run down these leads you have both given me. I will post the results when I get the time to work on the car.
Thanks again!!
Tim |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1969
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 8:14 pm: | |
Tim,
I will admit I am not a mechanic, but the popping and what you describe as "dropped a cylinder", certainly sounds like a miss. I had similar problems of a miss, that were caused by water entering the spark plug hole (from washing the car). Others have had the same symptom from a bad wire or spark plug extender....What matched most was the fact that at higher rpms, it would similarly "tend to clear out" just as you are experiencing. So with that, I was figuring to follow the same track; but there are many very technically savy individuals here, so I will defer to them. |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 681
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 8:14 pm: | |
Oh ya this can be very intermitant sometimes they act up only once or twice in a summer...then all of a sudden it just fails completly. This is usually the first thing I check when a 328 comes in for running rough. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:59 pm: | |
Tom, Thanks for the insight. One more question...could this be intermittant with a bad relay? (Can relays fail intermittantly, or do they typicaly fail permanantly) |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 680
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:53 pm: | |
The relay operates the injection computer. The injection computer reads the o2 sensor voltage and throttle postition,and then modulates the pluse width of the metering valve. This valve is what allows the computer to adjust the air fuel ratio. If the valve is not operating then you will get the symptoms you have described. I have replaced 3 of these relays this summer alone. The valve should be buzzing at all times with the engine running. The relay itself has a amp fuse on the top of it. These do blow occationaly,but most of the time the relay just goes. The relay itself is a Porshe part. This valve only adjust fuel. If it is not working your car will be running to rich. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:53 pm: | |
Jeff, I had the same thought... Techron for perhaps a fouled injector. But its intermittant, and the behavior just doesn't make me feel that would do it. I keep waivering between fuel delivery(hampered electronicly, or an ignition problem.
I just wish this was as simple as the 2-stroke stuff I'm familiar with!!!
Thanks, Tim |
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 515
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:43 pm: | |
If it only happens when the car is warm, it sounds like a fuel problem.
Cold Start injecteor may be leaking, your airflow sensor may be binding sticking, your warm control pressure may be too high or you may have unequal or poor injector flow
You might start by putting in some Techron fuel cleaner |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:41 pm: | |
Tom, help me understand what functions the "injection protection relay / metering valve perform. No, I havent checked that yet.
Thanks, Tim |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 679
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:39 pm: | |
Tim..did you check the metering valve? |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:30 pm: | |
Dave, what leads you to believe its ignition rather than fuel?? |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 678
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Check to see if the metering vavle on the side of the fuel distributor is buzzing when the car is running. You can either put your hand on it,or use a long metal screwdriver and place the tip of the screw driver against the valve and put the handle end to your ear. You will know it is buzzing right away. If it is not then the injection protection relay is not working. The relay is under a panel in the trunk in the right hand side. In your owners manuel it should show you were both components are located. |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1968
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
I would start with checking your plug extenders and wires. Definitely sounds like you have an ignition miss somewhere. |
Tim Mooney (Tim_mooney)
New member
Username: Tim_mooney
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 7:22 pm: | |
My '86 328 has an intermittant problem. While the engine is idling, say at a stoplight, the tone of the engine will suddenly change, with a drop in RPM from approx. 1050 down to approx. 900 RPM. (the problem has also appeared while driving at speed too).It sounds as if its dropped a cylinder. The exhast pops slightly at times. When this happens the car will accelerate poorly, with some hesatation especially thru 3700-4000 RPM, then tend to clear out. Just as quickly, the symptoms are gone, it will run perfectly. Its hit and miss, but frequently occuring. I ran the car today for a 15 minute drive and the problem was present the entire drive. No other symptoms to give me advance notice of when it will happen. About the only fairly consistant observation is that it happens only after the car is warmed up to temp. I changed the spark plugs in the hopes it was a plug on the edge of fouling (the plugs looked great), this was no help. Any Suggestions or reference to previous discussions relating to a similar problem would be appreciated. |