| Author | Message | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 781 Registered: 6-2002 |
Fred - your physician example is a good one. Be alert to the oxymoron "electivc surgery." I agree that if there is only one local mechanic that the market is artificially constrained, and in that case the only recourse is to speak with the owner. If sufficient number of customers are dissatisfied, then someone should investigate an alternative (competition) business. I am not criticizing your emotion. I only cite business logic and laws of physics. Jim S. | ||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
Junior Member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2003 |
Some great posts here, thank you all. Recently I looked into new struts for the engine cover on my 328. The dealer said about $100 apiece. Then I spoke to a Ferrari chat member who said he bought a pair from Ferrari UK. $18 Each. somethings not right, and yes, it is important for me to shop around. I'm a Ferrari owner on a budget. I have a 6 Y.O. and a 8 Y.O. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 577 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, I personally am referring to dealerships performing shoddy work. Often times, there aren't many other dealers to bring the car to. Additionally, if it's under warranty, you ususally need to bring it to a dealer!!!! Another issue with not going back to the same shop and having another shop work on the car is that when something goes wrong from the shoddy workmanship at both places, they each point the finger at the other!!! It's little things. For example, they replaced the A/C evaporator (which is behind the glovebox) and when putting it back together, they didn't put the rubber grommet back in the firewall, so now I can see daylight. It's a $0.03 part, but it will cost me another day without my car to deal with it!!! The list of little things goes on and on. Yes, they usually take care of it, BUT....that's only IF you notice (so now you have to inspect work that should have been done correctly in the first place) and you have to deal with the inconvenience of bringing it back and praying they don't screw anything else up while re-fixing. Rushing through any job, no matter what the field, can lead to poor results. Let me put it into perspective....Do you want a Dr operating on you who doesn't care and rushes through the job? (probably a bad analogy since most do too, but you get my point...) | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1706 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well, the extent of my mechanical work on the car has been to remove the actuators and futz with them a bit. I mean, in concept, nothing should be tricky. In practice, however, I fear the potential to do something stupid is high. Plus, there are about a kajillion wires in there. A good service rep guide, I think, would help. That and the right tools. But yes, there's LOTS of overly-helpful advice here. No two ways about it. --Dan | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 862 Registered: 11-2001 |
Nice work Tom. I don't have a scanner at my house so I will have to go over to my friends place and scan them in. Hopefully I can get them posted tomorrow. Dan, I was apprehensive at first. Shoot, I procrastinated about it for about three months before I finally jumped in. All it takes is patience, tools, and some guidance. One of my favorites sayings is, "If we can put a man on the moon and bring him back, I can do this". You'll never learn how to swim if you don't get in the water. Don't be scared the fellas here are really helpful. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1693 Registered: 9-2002 |
Rich: thanks for the pictures and info. Always appreciated. to the guys (Ernie, et alia) who pull their engines: I am in awe. What I don't know about cars, you could fill the hollywood bowl with (sorry Doody  ). I just wouldn't trust myself to do it right, as much as I'd *like* to do it. --Dan | ||
| Tom Francis (Tfrancis)
New member Username: Tfrancis Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rosso.. Great post! It's good to hear your opinions. Especial since you have hands on experience. Erine.. Congrats!! You've got guts doing your own work. I know because I'm doing mine for the first time too! I'm learning a ton about these cars. If I was to do this again I'd pull the engine like you did. You can see pictures of my service at www.mcicars.com under "Garages". I'd like to see pics of your work. Also, I have to agree with your position. Owners are being ripped off. Lastly, it's good to see members who can debate without mud slinging. Tom | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 778 Registered: 6-2002 |
Fred - "I agree that dealer's need to make a profit, however, I HATE paying full price for shoddy workmanship!! " Then don't go back. Free markets work that way. Don't berate the system because some fail to perform. Work the system and advise others of your experience. They then can choose to risk the same experience or seek another source. If we suffer from the poor service offered by a facility, then we are to blame if they stay in business. Jim S. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2117 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fred, I agree with you on many of those points. I have friends who are mechanics, and I have nothing against them making a fair wage for their speed and experience. I think if something does go wrong, that the "redo" is billed back against them...(at least I would hope). I had a major service done about a year ago on my former Honda(Honda Auto Center of Bellevue, WA), and the mechanic definitely rushed the job out the door. They forgot to replace the fuel filter (noticed the original one did not look "new", forgot to re-attach a ground wire back to the cam cover (which I hope meant they did adjust the valves...) and did not give me my complinentary wash. I took it back a week later, they fixed all the stuff (at no charge) but skipped the complimentary car wash, again. What was funny, was how they ask me specifically if I wanted the complimentary car wash each time, then made me sign a liability waiver that they were not responsible if their wash guys damaged the car (hand wash). Seattle BMW never forgets the wash (they vacuum too) and no waiver... go figure. Alfa of Tacoma, where I take my Ferrari seems to charge very close to what their actual time is, as I find the labor charges very reasonable (as is the rate, only $75!) They always wash and vacuum the car upon return. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 575 Registered: 8-2002 |
I agree that dealer's need to make a profit, however, I HATE paying full price for shoddy workmanship!! The labor system is bogus! Most dealers charge you a 'book' rate for the number of hours it takes to do a job. If the mechanic can do it in 1/2 the time he/she still gets paid the full rate. Yes, to be fair, if it takes 2x the time, he/she only gets the book rate. However, this system leads to mechanics rushing to get done with each job so they can bill 16 hours of work in an 8 hour day. This leads to shoddy workmanship and sloppy work. When the public picks up the car, 99% of them don't know what they're looking at so they drive on their merry way. Until something goes wrong, then the dealer inevitibly insists it's the public's fault. And that's when they do a job you need......how many times do I need to hear 'you need new brakes' when I get the tires rotated, only to insist to look at them myself and see that there's over 3/4 of the pad left!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr......... | ||
| Rosso (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 544 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ernie- Agree and respect everything you said. As this thread started, I actualy thought this may come up. And I am glad it did. I now have post to point back to. I for one stoped working on cars due to the fact that my hands got dirty. Ok, really not the reason, but...damn dirt under finger nails. Anyways, thanks for the great debate, and James, thanks for your post as well. I am glad some of the old F-chat is here. Enjoy motoring. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 772 Registered: 6-2002 |
Gentlemen - It's not personal. It's not evil. It cannot be otherwise. The prices we pay for cars and parts follow the laws of economics and of good business. Nothing more. Nothing less. Respecting concision, the price is what the market will bear. Those that invest at substantial risk deserve to make a profit. Those that have invested to open Ferrari dealerships, or own FNA, deserve to profit from their investment. What's reasonable? You define that by what you are willing to pay (what the market will bear). Don't belittle someone for making a profit. What is the alternative? That they should lose money? Then where would you buy cars and parts. Yes, the market is artificially constrained by FNA not allowing new car parts to be purchased from U.K., but that protects a local dealership community for most who do not desire hunting the world for a carbon fiber shift paddle. I prefer to pay less for parts. I understand why I pay more. I don't get emotional about it. I choose to do so. I am not forced to do so. I get good service from my local dealer (F of Orange County). I would not like to see them go out of business. It's not personal nor evil. It simply cannot be otherwise. Jim S. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 852 Registered: 11-2001 |
Rosso I must tip my hat to you, in that you have pulled more engines than I. There are no hard feelings at all. Yes this has been a good debate, actually kinda fun. I just put that out there because, I have had parts managers act so big headed with me before, when they have never worked on the cars that they sell parts for. I understand also were you are coming from. There are plenty of owners that complain about what they pay, yet really don't know what is truely behind the work. So I can see how you get sick and tired of hearing about it. Thanks for the compliment about the 30K. What was really funny was the looks on people faces when they saw the motor out of the car. LOL. They just don't know what to make of it. Not only do I have a Ferrari sitting in my garage, but as some have told me, I was crazy to pull the engine. Now that I know what to do, I look at it the other way. It would have been more crazy for me not to do my own work. In the past, people on this site have made claims to things that they cannot prove. Not that you are doubting what I say, but others may. So if anyone needs proof I have plenty of it. As the old saying goes, the camera never lies. Good debating with you. | ||
| Rosso (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 543 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ernie- First and foremost. I have pulled 3 F355 engines and 1 TR. I have been a parts guy since day one, but used to help out over a Veloce speedesign and worked on the cars for over two years at night. (moonlighting) Anyways, does that really matter. I understand and respect your post 100%. 100%. that is awesome that you took that challenge on by yourself! It really is a not that hard. As far as labor rates. It should be done by area. to be fair. Like I said, we are 135. BMW and MB less then 10 miles away are the same. Why? Rent is high in the S-Valley. My car is going into Ford tommorow...and I need to correct my other post. They are at 110. So, 25 cheaper Anyways, what are we getting for this kind of money? rent tools wages insurance More tools training support personal more tools This is my .02 cents, and I hope there is no hard feelings, as I think this has been a good debate. I am still impressed that you did your own 30k!! | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 851 Registered: 11-2001 |
Yes the true villan is FNA, which is why I mentioned them first. I said I wasn't gonna get into the labor, but now I will. The dealers set the hourly fee. I just don't see how they can justify $120/hr laybor. I will tell you why. Because after having spent in the neighborhood of $9000.00 (+/- $100) having someone else work on my car, I decided to start working on it myself. Well guess what. I found out that the car isn't hard to work on, and that alot of the things you are told are just to charge you more money. Like for example the 30K engine out. You get quoted on average around $6,000, most of which is labor. I know for a fact exactly what it takes, and at most I can only see being charged $2,800, for labor and parts. Why do I know this, because I did the ENGINE OUT service myself. There is no way that I will ever see them justifying well over $4,000.00 in labor, and actually closer to $5,000. Now at best it should take an experianced "Ferrari Certified" mechanic 20 hours to do the service, at the most 25 hours. That is over three 8 hour days. It only took me four hours to remove the engine, being very careful and taking my time, without the use of a shop lift or the "special" engine mount, and I have NEVER worked on a Ferrari before. Nor do I have any special "factory" training. Normal mechanics charge $65/hr labor. So if you take $65 multiplied by 25 hours, you get $1625 for the laybor, leaving $1,175 for parts, which is what I paid for mine. But just because the mechanic is working on a Ferrari does not justify charging close to double the hourly rate. Also the amount of time they say it takes to do the work is padded. Again I know how long it takes because I have gotten in the engine, busted nuckles, and worked on my car. How many Ferrari engines have you pulled all by yourself Rosso? I suspect non. Yeah you may sell plenty of parts, but I have laid hands on my car and fixxed it. So this is why I say that FNA and the dealers rip you off. Both FNA and the Ferrari dealers have to stop price gouging the owners. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2079 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have to agree with Redhead here...the true villian is FNA, not your local dealer. He even has credibility on the pay issue, I know the head mechanic at my local FNA dealership left three years ago (after 10+ years of service) to work for the local city municipality managing their fleet service dept (more money working on police cars!). | ||
| ������ (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 539 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ernie. Heres one thing that most F car owners never take into account. How many Fcar parts are imported? NOt that many compared to the other car companies that you said. Lets compare apples to apples here. Ford for one has at least 3 depots in Cali alone. How many for Ferrari???? That would be one. One. Not 3 in one state. One in the NATION. How many parts are going to be stocked at those depots? As much as FNA stocks in one location. So, take 3 in Cali alone x's 3 and then add in another 50 states and most have one depot. Figure out how many parts they import.My avg per month as a F car dealer was 28-32% profit. Most Ford or Chevy dealers are in the 36-43%. The thing that no one takes into account, is how bad it sucks for us. Most of the people that work in these dealerships are not doing it for the money. Same postition as mine at a Ford dealership is 40k-60k higher a year. Most of us are in it for the passion. As an ex-dealer, I am sorry that the prices are what they are. BUT, what can a dealer do about it???? NOTHING. Any other importer is NOT allowed to sell to a dealer in any other region. So, dealers are not allowed to buy from F-UK. Now that I am not a dealer, I buy monthly from them, and pay the same cost after paying the duties and freight on the parts. I do agree that many Ferrari parts are not Ferrari specific. And that many can be bought at other places. And I am not going to argue that. But, can you tell me that part numbers? I can tell you what they are, and do many times to many customers. Why? Customer's respect that. And I never had an issue with it. BTW. Labor...In my area, the BMW, and MB dealers are the SAME labor rate. Ford is $15 less. Yet, Ford will send techs to many schools, and teach them all all the new stuff. F car dealers, one tech per dealer. Then they have to teach all the other techs. Make that make sense!!! Bottom line. I am sick and tired of hearing customers complaining about how DEALERS are ripping customers off. WE DO NOT SET THE PRICES. We are trying our best to keep the door open. Thats it.And our pay proves that we are not in it for the money. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 847 Registered: 11-2001 |
Rosso I did think about the fees. Why is it that Mercedes, BMW, VW, Porsche, Audi, Honda (Acura), Toyota (Lexus), Nissan (Infinity), Subaru, can all import their parts, pay the same fees, and still sell them cheaper than what the Ferrari dealers do? As for your cost of the part compaired to the value of the car example. I don't buy it one bit. Why? Because many of the parts Ferrari uses aren't "Ferrari" parts, yet they still charge more for them just because they are going into a "Ferrari". Lets take my 348 for example. The alternator they first used, the Delco, is a General Motors part. Then they went to the Nippodenso, a Japanese part. Now how about the electrical system and engine managment, Bosche, which is German. Yet we can find these same parts in other cars for less money, often hundreds less, than what the Ferrari dealer sells them for. That is how I figure that FNA and the dealers rip us off. But lets just stay with "factory" parts. For example the drain plug for the bottom of the 348 engine. The dealer was charging $65.00 for the plug, and $20.00 for the washer. $85.00 for a plug and washer. That is plain wrong. Now I found the exact same parts in Europe for $32 total. These came in genuine Ferrari packing, and the Euro dealer still made money off the deal. That is a difference of $53.00 for the EXACT SAME PARTS. Which means I could have bought two of each and still had change. This is just one of several examples. I also said that you really are burning people for what you charge for labor. But I'm not even gonna get started on that. Yes the dealers are a business. Yes they deserve to make a reasonable profit. But from my experiance the Ferrari owners in the United State, myself included, are being price gauged. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
Junior Member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-2001 |
I've had to repaint and repair my 512TR spoiler at least 4 times. Maybe someday I'll learn... | ||
| ������ (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 538 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sorry Greg, I know what your looking for, and no, I do not stock them. I bought some from Ferrari UK last. Might check with Jeff. Regards | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 234 Registered: 2-2002 |
Red-Do you happen have a 512TR front spoiler (the black part that gets hit by the curb) in that 170k of inventory? Blow out special? | ||
| Rosso (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 534 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ernie--Laughing even harder now. I remember Los Gatos, cause thats where I work. That is off a Los Gatos sales car. HOw funny is that. BTW--Do some research on why we closed down. It was not cause of FNA shutting us down, our owner approached FNA. Today, I am boxing up 170k of my inventory and sending it back to FNA. (Which is more the 4 parts BTW) Regarding FNA pricing. Have you ever looked at custom fees to import automotive parts into the US? Maybe its time the owners start doing reasearch before complaning. I for one, not being a dealer anymore, now order from Ferrari UK all the time myself. Yes they are cheaper. I am not going to deny that. So, you order from where you want, but remember that the dealer network is here to provide service to new cars. I am here in my parts department with parts managers from Chevy, Ford, and Nissan today. I have asked them what the genral profit margin per month is. MOst are 7-10% higher then me. And, once again, we are ripping you off how??? Ratio the cost of your car to the cost of the part, and have a good day. So, regarding the belt. F355's have a couple of places that debris can get in. Its not a major issues, as this is the 4th I have ever seen. So, it should not cause to much alarm, but wanted to SHARE with some that it is possible not only to have wear, but to have debris issues. back to parts...... | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 844 Registered: 11-2001 |
LOL Rosso, are you sure that isn't the belt that you put on the car? This way when the guys engine grenades you can tell him "see you should have changed your belt every 5K". Or hey, hey I know. When it was being put on the first time, at the dealers, the screw driver that the mechanic was using to get it on slipped and stabbed the belt. Hahahaaaa. Yeah I do talk trash about dealers. Why you ask? Because the U.S. dealers rip off people all the time for parts, and even worse for laybor. Why is it that I can call all the way over to Europe, order a part, pay for shipping, and still get the part cheaper than what the dealers are selling them for here? Cause the U.S. owners get ripped of relentlesly by FNA and the dealers. Now this doesn't mean that there are some dealers that are respectable. But we all know that they don't last. Remember the guys in Los Gatos? If I was to say I'm sorry for hurting your fealings and not do it anymore, would you say your sorry for ripping us off and not do it any more? | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 609 Registered: 2-2003 |
Steven, Excellent info for all of us. Enjoying the belt change, Russ | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 852 Registered: 4-2002 |
Russ, The 1985 Euro 308GTS QV here has BASIC cam belt covers, the 328 have closer to the belt covers. During the recent 60k major here my mechanic said i have the screw holes in the engine for the closer covers and may get them installed during the next service. Enjoy the Drive, Steven R. Rochlin | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 231 Registered: 2-2002 |
Red-Thanks for the post. Its great to get some facts when we wonder if we really need to change the belts. The "old f-chat" is still here, just covered up sometimes. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 608 Registered: 2-2003 |
Wow - wonder what the chances of that happening are? I had thought that the belts were shielded as to prevent this. Was there a reason that this rock had gotten in there or do we need to do something to better shield the belts? | ||
| Rosso (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 533 Registered: 12-2001 |
Wow--Ernie..Just think..as a Dealer, I am here showing you guys what we have seen many times, and you throw a slam. Welcome to the new Fchat i guess. Norm-There is no rock in there. There is a complete hole. I tried my best to get a shot of it, but considering every time i leaned forward, more rocks fell out of my head, i just shot this one. So much for sharing. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 843 Registered: 11-2001 |
Naw, what that actually is, is, one of the rocks in the dealers head fell out and got stuck in the belt. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
Junior Member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have heard that the Ferrari factory has begun using timing rocks to indicate Top Dead Center to save money on yellow markers. That looks like a factory rock to me... | ||
| Norm (32storm)
Junior Member Username: 32storm Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2003 |
Appears to be wedged in there. How far in is it wedged? Did it cut any structural cords? | ||
| Rosso (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 530 Registered: 12-2001 |
96 F355 12k and one rock that didn't belong.  |