| Author | Message | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1221 Registered: 9-2002 |
Andy, Very well put. As for 86 - I'm not sure Max is smart enough to get the job done! Even with Control and 99 at his disposal!  --Dan | ||
| Andy mathieson (Andy)
New member Username: Andy Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2003 |
This is an "aliens" contribution to what is clearly a very emotional, patriotic American thread. The "war" on terrorism is not a war at all in any conventional sense. There can be no declaration of victory. It has been going on for many years all over the world and will continue. America has recently been brutally dragged into the front line and that is terrible for Americans but will be helpful to the rest of the free western world. Firstly you are fighting beliefs, ideals, resentments, hatred and envy. It's a war of hearts and minds. You can kill as many enemies/people as you can but you will not kill the hatred; you will build on it. As for nuking anyone, apart from being morally abhorrent, it would have a disastrously negative effect. It's not like bombing a country to make it's government surrender. Ask yourself, if terrorists set off a nuke in Washington or London (or assassinated whole swathes of our leaders) would we give up, say "Wow that's enough for me. I think I'll change my beliefs." No. You'd redouble your determination to beat the bastards. Intelligence is key. western intelligence agencies relaxed after the cold war and started relying on US technology (satellites, listening to phone traffic; tapping e-mails etc) rather than field work. It is time to go back to old fashioned spies; speaking the language; knowing the culture; infiltrating the organisations etc. One of the first rules of war is know your enemy. Next we need to work on the hearts and minds. Why do they hate us? Forget general statements like "they're crazy fundamentalists". People all over the world want what you have got (ie wealth) but don't want your/my values to govern their lives. The best way to unite a people is a common enemy. Why is it so easy to make us that common enemy? A won't try to give all the reasons here ...... I don't have a deep enough insight anyway. It's very complex. Forget "don't get mad, get even". Try "get smart" Agent 86 where are you when we need you? (some may be too young to get the reference, or maybe it's on cable very day. I'm not there to tell.) ........ Why do I get drawn into this? I don't do this "meaning of life stuff" anymore. Plus it's 9.45 am here and I should be working. I know. It's not concern for my fellow man. It's just raining so I can't take the car out. | ||
| ray (Co11ins)
New member Username: Co11ins Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2003 |
Ralph: Nope. To bury your head in the hot Texas sand and ignore history cannot change the course of natural progression. To spread resources thin to create resentment in a worldwide level will screw this great country of ours. How about England's diminutive state these days after a worldwide slapdown? All we need is some Ghandi peacenick ambassador type speaking for the Iraqis and pack it up and leave. War is good when there is a visible enemy. My father airmailed hate into the south pacific in WW2 and was a fine countryman. I'm no hippie Ralph, I wish no harm to my fellow Americans, period. It is important to fight an effective war, not just an oil war. Kill with purpose, not abandon. WOW these little Italian coffees pack a punch. I've been awake all day! | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
Junior Member Username: Aventino Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dave, agree with your post that the CIA should infiltrate these terrorist networks, in the very least to gain a better understanding of what makes them tick. The thing I don't understand after the inquiries post 9/11 is how useless the CIA appeared at doing this over the past 20 years. Going off topic a little, for obvious reasons plenty here feel their country, the US, has a degree of vulnerability. My question is, if we were back in say '63, how many of you would perceive Communism sweeping through Asia in much the same light and how many would enlist? | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 700 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ray: Do you have wishful thinking ? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1205 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ray, Welcome to the party. I agree with your sentiments. --Dan | ||
| ray (Co11ins)
New member Username: Co11ins Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2003 |
Fantastic, a bunch of people with too much time on their hands debating in the safety of their own homes through a high-speed internet connection about how "America" should nuke the muslims of the face of the earth. Use this opportunity (the high-speed internet) to do some research before you post. America pays more than any other country into supporting 3rd world countries? Yeah right, is that per capita? "THE muslims" - who's they? How about "the americans" should stop being so self-righteous in thinking that they're the super power that can do whatever they please. Remember your history class; the Ming dynasty, Byzantine, Roman Empire and all those others thinking that their demand for expansion, power and cheap supplies was justifiable... The higher you go, the deeper you fall. | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 549 Registered: 11-2002 |
Only cowords use Nukes. | ||
| ray (Co11ins)
New member Username: Co11ins Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2003 |
Hey Kds, I worked at the WTC for six months in the first rebuild side by side with the police and NYFD as they pulled "chicken bones" from the ground. Except there were no chickens working at the WTC on 9/11. I'm a structual ironworker and I work with people that have nationalistic values and a strong sense of self. Needless to say, I was in the ••••. Who has the right to be angry? I do. Who has the lust for hate and revenge? I do not sir. To say that an entire race religion or creed should be exterminated for the actions of the few bastardizes the American value system. Your extermist view makes you no better than Osama and to continue with this train of thought will isolate you so when I come your way to put my footwear in your rear end, no one will hear you scream, or moan. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2886 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Brits installed the current Saudi Royals so the Brits & the US can uninstall them Makes me pine for the days of the Shah of Iran who was of course installed by the CIA. AT least he appreciated Ferraris | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 682 Registered: 3-2002 |
I agree. No need to go after 22 year old kids that are brainwashed into becoming operatives after they have been introduced to fundamentalism. Go after the finacier and political leadership. Make them pay severly. Go after their entire family. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 749 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'm with Jon. Rather than invading a nation and attempting to install an entire new Govt and then after having spent $100 Billion hoping the new Govt is not worse than the prior.... Instead if the current Govt. in a nation like Saudi is not putting the boot down on any and all fundamentalist islamic terrorism and its organizations (and currently they are not).... just remove that leadership. With a bullit. I believe if senior members of the Saudi Royal family were to begin dying off in violent means, perhaps they would change their tune. Dont sweat the "next Govt.", we wont have enough control over that regardless. Just apply exactly the same tactic to them. This is proven counter-terrorism tactics. Massive invasion, bombing, destruction of infrastructure and killing of the lowest level soldiers will get us nowhere. Killing the leadership, sponsors and supporters is the only path to any real victory. In Vietnam these types of tactics worked well against the Viet-Cong. Special forces teams and intelligence operatives tried to focus on identifying and killing the leadership and supporters. It worked extremely well. However, these tactics were not extended to the north.... so while the removal of local leadership had the desired tactical impact, without the removal of the senior leadership there was no strategic impact. A very valuable lesson is in there, but the current strategy is ignoring it. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 926 Registered: 8-2001 |
Will, As for the terrorists, How about installing a new Govt in Saudi that doesnt support them and spending more $ on education in the US & in the poor middle eastern countries That's precisely the thing that infuriates the fundamentalists. Why should we be installing another government in a muslim society. We need to quit meddling in the affairs of other Middle Eastern countries. Any military presence in Saudi Arabia should be limited to attacking those bastards not defending them. As for spending more money on educating poor Middle Eastern countries, hell we spend $2 billion a year on education in this country how much more do we need to spend here. I don't think we need to spend a dime in the Middle East on anything other than oil. Regards, Jon | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2878 Registered: 2-2001 |
I would start putting Mega $ into a Nuclear Fusion research & a serious space program in order to place huge solar panels several acres wide into orbit & beam that energy down to Earth, Its not a pipe dream its very doable and you dont have to go to war or kill anybody or screw up the environment. As for the terrorists, How about installing a new Govt in Saudi that doesnt support them and spending more $ on education in the US & in the poor middle eastern countries | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 277 Registered: 4-2001 |
Not Bad. Combined with Terry Springers down and dirty approach (which I assume/hope is at least partially in place) we may have a chance at killing the roaches before they kill us.. The patriot Act may not be perfect but all the folks against it offer absolutely nothing better to protect us against terrorists already here. Also get rid of Mineta (sp?)who thinks takeing booties off of 18 month babies is part of the fight against terrorism. We are not in a war time mentality. Look at all the towns who refused to interview mid easterners when asked and latter found terrorist cells in their midst (Portland OR). | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 920 Registered: 8-2001 |
Lou B, I wouldn't have done everything different. I think up until a few months ago Bush was doing a fairly decent job though some things I would not have done quite the way he did. How he handled the 9/11 crises in its first few months was in fact positive in my view. I commended him on this site for going to Afghanistan and getting rid of the Taliban. With Al Gore as president we would still be negotiating the kitchen sink with the Taliban on the turn over of Bin Laden whom the Taliban would never turn over. I have some big problems with the Patriot Act but nothing there that couldn't be done a bit differently to still save the bill. Here are a few things I would have done differently: 1) Put extreme pressure on the Saudis to turn over any and all evidence on Bin Laden and his family (yes I am aware that supposedly they have disowned him). Do you all have any idea how much Saudi money sits in US banks?? Freeze it! Plain and simple. I think that would produce some results pretty quickly. 2) Start helping Russia develop its oil pipeline on a much larger scale than we currently are including more direct foreign investment in their oil operations. Let the Saudis know we aim to replace them as one of our biggest oil sellers. 3) We should have been much firmer with Musharif and Pakistan. We should not be deferring to them on matters of Bin Laden and letting their military and intelligence be in charge of getting Bin Laden. We should have sent a few thousand US military forces into the disputed border region with Afghanistan and find him. We know he is there, but Musharif is scarred to go in for fear of starting an uprisising in his country. Tough ••••. Why are we working hand in hand with a military dictator who overthrew his countries government? 4) Instead of focusing on Iraq we should have been focusing on Iran. They have several of Bin Laden's top advisors in custody including one of his son's who runs some of Al Qeada's Asian operations. Do we really think that Iran has these people under harsh confinement or is this just a ploy to win concessions from us? How do we know these Al Qeada folks are not sitting in some Iranian luxury hotel hooked up with laptops and orchestrating bombings like the one in Singapore? 5) Stop getting involved in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Some of you call Saddam a terrorist because he supports the families of the Palestinian terrorists with $25,000 each. Ever consider that he would have to make such payments to nearly 80,000 such families before he would equal the $2 billion we give to the other side. What's the difference here? That one side is killing innocent people and the other is not? How many Israeli tanks have run over innocent Palestinians? How many of the thousands of so-called Palestinian militants rounded up are actually terrorists. I am not here to take sides in the conflict but we need to stay out of it. 6) Create a BILL that would foster more data and intelligence sharing between our agencies not an ENTIRE BILLION $$ AGENCY. The same result could have been achieved at less cost and with the same positive result. We don't need Tom Ridge telling us to duct tape the windows. 7) Allow all pilots to carry weapons on airlines. Put two armed military people on every flight. And don't tell me we don't have the personnel to do it. Axe about half of all these stupid peace keeping missions in banana republics and put them to use defending our country and it's citizens NOT Liberia�s. In addition institute the same security measure that El Al the Israeli airline uses. 9/11 would never have occurred in their country. 8) While nuking everything that moves as some have advocated isn't the best way, park plenty of nuclear subs in the gulf and other places in the Middle East and have periodic tests in the ocean so they get the point. 9) Pull our forces out of harms way in SA. We don't belong there to defend a country that hates us and sponsors terrorism. If Saddam wants to take over Saudi Arabia let him try. We'll sit back and wait and then go in when he is done. I can support going to war with him and deposing him once he has all the Saudi oil fields under his control (which is doubtful given the extent of his military vs. the Saudis). How's that for a start! Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 264 Registered: 5-2003 |
Step one: Define "Terrorism". Objectively. Today, "terrorist" is a label used to mean "someone we don't like". Israel call Palestinians "terrorists". Iran calls Israel "terrorists". And right about now, the Islamic press is probably calling the US "terrorists", after the Iraq invasion. Humans are rationalizing creatures, not rational ones. If "we" do it, it's "tactics"; if "they" do it, it's "terrorism". You can't fight fog. You have to have an objective definition to know what you're fighting. Otherwise you're fighting a "war" against people disagreeing with you. The world needs an objective definition of acts which the global community will accept as constituting "terrorism". Such a definition must be accepted, going in, to be non-comprehensive: There will be activities which many don't like which can't be included, because it would lack global agreement. There are no end of "gray areas". Some of the activities of the French Resistance during WWII (such as mutilating a woman for dating a German) fall into the "ends justify the means" category. Israeli "defense operations" also fall in the gray band. Even China is questioning US "human rights" conformance regarding those Taliban prisoners at GitMo. But intentionally crashing a loaded civilian airliner into a civilian building is one the world should be able to agree on. Step two: Illegalize terrorism. Globally. There aren't any (coherent) international laws against things you can't define. Once you assemble a definition of terrorist activities, you can then specify that any groups engaged in such activities will have no place to hide anywhere in the civilized world. Any nation that protects such groups becomes a rogue state and forfeits the support and commerce of the civilized world. Or, in short, Drop the Whole World on them. After 9/11 the world missed a unique opportunity. The global response to those attacks created a brief period of shock when a serious proposal to create a globally accepted definition to unite the world against terrorism might have had a chance. Today, we're back to the usual situation where you can't get the world to agree on anything. And after the Afghan and Iraq invasions, the Arab world isn't inclined to agree with the US on anything. So the US is back to doing the kind of unilateral action that much of the world resents. | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 284 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hmmm.... This could give a whole new meaning to "sleeper cells"  | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 680 Registered: 3-2002 |
They have the patience and resolve to wage low level warfare (terrorism). Releasing ALCM's and launching a carrier air wing that is 120 miles out to sea is not the answer. You need light patrols of Special Forces / Rangers that will remain in the host terrorist country for YEARS. The host terrorist country must pay a very hi price for supporting terrorism beyond their borders. We want it to be ALL completed in time before we sit down for the football game on television. | ||
| DL (Darth550)
Junior Member Username: Darth550 Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2003 |
The fundamental problem: By the time you have to think about how to deal with them, they have already done their damage. If they are caught and killed, they are martyr'd. What do you think John Wayne would have done to Osama? DL | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1733 Registered: 7-2002 |
c | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2642 Registered: 1-2002 |
Terry, we agree again. No political will to do what is REALLY needed. Actually, there is a little bit of this selective "whacking" going on right now...but VERY little. Besides, what would France say? (smirk....snicker...chortle) Patrick, when you get out of high school, maybe you will find a cure for this affliction:  | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 443 Registered: 5-2003 |
BAd news Pat.. America owns the world. We paid more than ANY other country to protect it and also keep 3rd world countries afloat. So.. If any towel heads have a problem with our way of life.. they need to bring it on. | ||
| Patrick Denonville (Arizonaguy)
Member Username: Arizonaguy Post Number: 540 Registered: 4-2003 |
Nebula, American's made themselves hated by actions of the pass, and you wonder why other countries hate the U.S... Because you never keep your nose in your own business... Whatever happened to keeping your hands to yourself? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 746 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dave, The proper action in the event any Dem released such information would be: 1. Have them arrested for disclosing top secret national security data. Prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Yes, the Commander in Chief could indeed order such an arrest. 2. Refuse to comment on claims or allegations other than to say "The US will prosecute the war in any way it, and in any location it deems appropriate". Period. 3. Focus open efforts in Washington on improving the economy and everyones daily lives. Do everything to take the public focus off the war on terrorism.... while quietly prosecuting it in the most ruthless covert way possible. Another example of how to prosecute the war: I watched a PBS documentary on Islamic Fundamentalism. The filmers toured many Islamic schools and Mosques in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. It was amazing. 8 year old children were forced to read the Koran for 6 hours a day and were being openly and heavily indoctrinated in "hatred for the infidel". These teachers and clerics were devoting their entire life to raising a new generation of brainwashed youths ready to die for Allah. Our journalist and TV crews can find these people, interview them and film their activities. Surely the CIA can find them, infiltrate them, locate their financial backers and then, quietly, KILL THEM ALL. These teachers and clerics and contributors are the enemy. The brainwashed 19 year old Al-Quada "soldier" is in some senses as much a victim as the 9/11 victims (dont misinterpret this to mean I mourn for the dead terrorist in ANY way). We are focusing on killing these soldiers while we ignore those who created and back him. BIG MISTAKE. Fueling the military industrial complex in order to guaranty big campaign contributions and thus the holy grail of re-election is NOT the key to victory. Our political leadership is not stupid. They know that to really fight this war in the way that could lead to victory would cause too many problems. It would anger many foreign nations. It would put the UN into even more turmoil. Perhaps biggest of all, it would not yield the political bonanza associated the rampant nationalism and patriotism the current strategy provides in the short term. Osama knows this too.... He is one VERY smart raghead. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2637 Registered: 1-2002 |
Terry, I don't want to...but I have to agree with your post, in its entirety, 100%. The one problem is this: some Dems on the Intelligence & Appropriations committees would leak this all over the media in a day to make Bush look bad...and the administration is required by law to inform them of these sorts of operations (law was created after the abuses of Watergate). To not do so might actually mean indictment/imprisonment of gov't officials including the president. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2002 |
Has everyone forgotten the "peace-loving" arabs who were celebrating in the streets directly after the plane hit tower one? Those f*ckers hate us, plain and simple. And if they condemed the actions so f*cking much, why haven't they turned anyone in? Where's Osama and Saddam? They're sitting on some Akbar's couch, suttfing their faces with Akbar's food, while Akbar pretends to be looking for them. F*ck those medieval bastards. All of them. After watching that dot-head b*tch scream with pleasure in the streets and burn the American flag as Innocent New Yokers were plummeting to their deaths killed any and all hope I had for those oily sh!t heads. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 678 Registered: 3-2002 |
Take the war to the terrorists village at night. Yes "all" members of the village. Sorry but we did not start this. Really I am not sorry. They are not sorry either. We will see how enthusiastic the survivors are to "join the cause" after the terrorists show up to try and recruit new members. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 745 Registered: 4-2002 |
First, to G Green: Give me a freaking break. What a total crock, thats the stupidest arguement I have ever heard. Yea, its all US Imperialism over the past 200 years.( <-- sarcasm mode) Do you even know what Imperialism means? If the US was motivated by Imperialism all of the following nations would be US colonies today: France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Mexico, Canada, all of central and south america, Japan, and most of southeast Asia. Also, there would be no Russia or eastern europe because it would be a nuclear wasteland from WWIII fought in 1950 or so. Instead, the US has a long history of aiding other nations and doing everything we can to act in a charitable manner. We have saved more foreign unfortunates from death by starvation or disease than all other nations in history combined. We paid to rebuild Europe after WWII... from the ground up and when we were done did we stay and rule the place as part of an Empire? NO. What a moron.... That you would put forth the idea that the US deserves what happened on 9/11 and that we brought it on ourselves is not only downright stupid but indefensible. Now to address the original question, how SHOULD we be fighting the war on Terrorism. I beleive firmly that our current conduct of the "War" is and will be a failure. I think that currently we are in fact losing the war. Here is why: Osama and his whackos are beating us with our own proven cold war tactics. They are getting us to spend ourselves into oblivion. Just like Reagan pushed the arms race to the point of bankrupting the USSR.... Osama is employing the same strategy. GWB is playing into it perfectly. Al-Queda has plenty of supporters. They have no problems recruiting lots of rapid and brainwashed young arabs who are eager to die for Allah. Al-Queda also is very well funded relative to their needs. All they need to do is keep up random terrorist attacks that require minimal coordination and expense and only really cost them in lives of their "troops" which they value very little anyway and can replace quickly. The US response is MASSIVE. Particularly in dollars spent. To make what could be a huge evaluation very simple: Al-Quada can put in place a simple strategy whereby they trade every dead terrorist for $10,000,000 in US defense spending. They have an endless supply of eager young terrorist, we do not have an endless supply of money. Using $2,000,000 cruise missiles to take out $2,000 trucks or to hit cave mouths is NOT the answer! The US will run a $450 BILLION deficit this year, and well over $500 Billion next. Thats IF we hit the CBO projected 4% GDP growth rate next year. If we dont and it slumps to 2% or so.... the deficit could top $700 Billion. All this massive new supply of Govt. debt is already helping push interest rates up. Higher rates raise the deficit even more. A viscious circle is created. Osama knows this.... He is sitting in a cave somewhere reading US deficit spending numbers in last weeks Wall Street Journal and laughing his butt off. So, what should be be doing to EFFECTIVELY fight this war? We should employ hardcore, proven counter-terrorism tactics. 1. Create a new, top secret military intelligence organization. Charge them with infiltrating Arab, Islamic organizations throughout the world. Buy spies. Buy information. This new organization will recruit members from the military, CIA, NSA, FBI and abroad. No restrictions in methods of prosecuting the war. This group is quiet, secret and encouraged to do whatever they can to prosecute a counter-terrorism campaign. 2. Identify the leadership in all of the following types of organizations: - Islamic Fundamentalist religious sects. In ANY nation. - Terrorist organizations. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Quada. Any supporter (on any level) we can identify... do so. - Terrorist friendly Govts. Yep... that means Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia. All allow religious sects that support terrorism to operate within their borders. 3. Kill them. By that I mean KILL all of the following: Political leaders within nations that harbor in any manner terrorist. Religious teachers and leaders that preach hatred and support terrorism. Terrorist spokespeople. Anyone who funds terrorism on any level. Anyone connected to terrorist activities. I dont mean launch a cruise missile or put an armored division on the ground in Saudi Arabia. I mean the Saudi prince comes out of his house one day and catches a long range sniper bullit in the head. I mean the religious teacher just vanishes one day. The Egyptian journalist who openly supports Al-Quada is killed in an auto accident. The Syrian prime minister who allows santuary to Hamas is assassinated. Iranian anti-fundamentalist groups are provided covert funding and military aid. Assets of Govts and individuals who are found to support, on any level, terrorism are siezed. Beating these guys will require nasty, dirty and bloody tactics. It will take getting mean and fighting them on their level. It will require the kind of fighting that the President does not announce in a press conference and that does not make good copy in the newspaper. Instead, in typical Washington fashion, we just throw money at the problem. GWB and the Dems basically will treat this war just like their last big "war", the war on drugs. It will never end. It will be the ongoing pork barrell blank check that can be milked for re-election campaigns for the next 20 years....... or until Osama finally wins and the US Govt. is bankrupt or the US economy trashed due to massive federal debt. Ahhhhhh Can never happen I hear you saying. Tell it to the Soviet Army. | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 282 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dave I wasn't so much advocating the idea as asking a hypothetic question. You do raise an interesting point about N Ireland. If the Brits had just nuked the Vatican it would have cleared up that whole mess right quick.  Art IIRC Clarke didn't invent RADAR, he wrote a story that described such a device and was in the British army as a tech during it's development. He is a very interesting guy. Have you read any of Richard Dawkins books? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 442 Registered: 5-2003 |
Rich.. believe me given the chance I would start burning mosques tomorrow. Sending Mexicans back across the borders to poverty would not cost me a moments sleep. Watching the scenes of wounded and dead in Iraq made me feel only some sense of closure. Give me the button or a gun and assure me that the police woulnd not be chasing me and I would gladly squeeze the trigger. Save your "I'm a tough guy" crap until YOU do something other than spout off from behind your keyboard. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 533 Registered: 10-2001 |
Any of you wishing death to members of some other tribe ought to get off your ass and go do it yourself. And while you're at it please shut up and leave the rest of us the hell out of it. In other words, less of this "we ought to..." crap and more of "i'm hopping a plane right now and am going to show you I'm not just talking out of my ass". You guys are absolutely insane. I'm certainly not a dove on the personal scale - if someone throws a punch I'm not going to turn the other cheek. But it's a long stretch from that to what you guys are claiming you'd like to do (or more accurately would like others to do for you while you stay safely in your office). | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2002 |
Themonuclear war is a definite attitude adjuster. Maybe they'll get the hint, then . | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2427 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mark: I agree that religion should be outlawed, however most people pretend they believe and would resist this. Arthur Clarke, the author, and I believe the inventor of radar, says that anyone who truly believes in religion is insane (an example Clarke uses is that if people truly believed there was an afterlife, they wouldn't hold onto their lives as hard). As to how this should be stopped: Bottom line here: we should attempt to get along with a larger portion of the world, stop dictating what they should and shouldn't do, stop invading other countries, etc. Crazy ideas like wiping out large segements of the world because they don't think like us will breed more and more violence against us, and sooner rather than later one of those people we don't like is going to light off a nuke in one of our cities. It seems the more we follow this path, the more death and destruction we seem to incur. Art | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1589 Registered: 12-2001 |
Faisal: On a personal level, i apologize. I have nothing against Muslims,generally. However, we are at war with a bunch of wacko fundamentalists who still think its the 7th Century. I could care less whether i am regarded as infidel by these characters, or they pray to Bozo the Clown. To each his own. But, those crazy fuckers crossed the line on Sept. 11. After that, its us or them. And as to the vast majority of peace loving Muslims who condemn this tragic turn of events, i say step out of the way since lip service is about all we've gotten and honestly, it wasn't that good. As to Saudi Arabia, its run by a bunch of two faced scum who are first on my list. I'm sorry their "people" haven't had the balls to revolt but its my impression that they were all pretty happy with the dole, even the Wahhabis. So, honestly, without any disrespect to you, personally, or your family, or your friends, i would say bye bye to that country as an ally in less time than it took me to write these words. And yes, if you want to feel some real religion, get to know what happens when we take the gloves off. Unfortunately, we •••• up every time we try to make a nice war. But, if we smoke enough of these folks, i think they'll reconsider before they pull another one of these stunts. Particularly if the body count is high enough. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 540 Registered: 9-2002 |
if the prez had nuked Mecca, then I can garantee that there would be ZERO problems with terrorisem for the rest of the time that people inhabit this planet. They would be fools to try anything,because they would know that the counrty or religon that they are terrorizing for, would no longer exsist afterwords. So what would be the point? Have your religens but keep them to yourself and the others that also beleive. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 437 Registered: 5-2003 |
ROFL.. my error. thanks for the correction. Perhaps if they did attend Mass they would have a better understanding of God's plan. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 896 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jeffrey, it's en masse, not in mass. Unless you meant "in Catholic Mass." But I don't think any Muslims have surrendered during Mass. They don't attend Mass, you see. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 435 Registered: 5-2003 |
Let's see.. any faith that calls refers to other faiths as "white devils" and calls for their extinction deserves what they get. And Fiasal... so far your "brothers" have proven to be not "peace loving" but COWARDS that fight only against innocents. The min they see Soliders they surrender in mass. I can only hope that this time they really try to attack us.... Wiping them off of one of GODS greatest gifts would be like getting rid of ants at a picinc. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2633 Registered: 1-2002 |
No. Not at all. They would have had Bush arrested in days. Mark, are you serious? Nuclear weapons vs. several airplanes? Hundreds of thousands of lives vs. 2,800? Attacking the seat of a religion just because of the sadistic, cowardly acts of 15 of its most sacreligious? That would be like the Irish Protestants advocating nuking the Vatican. Come on, man. | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 280 Registered: 4-2003 |
Obviously passions have cooled a bit but if the Prez had nuked Mecca in the immediate aftermath of September 11 do you think the American public would have supported the decision? I seem to recall quite a few public commentators advocating quick and bloody vengeance. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2632 Registered: 1-2002 |
I've gotta agree with you, Faisal, on that one. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 894 Registered: 3-2003 |
Kds, Whether you are an atheist or not, respect and decency mean something. Do you like your mother? What if someone insulted her in the worst possible way? Do you like your country? What if someone insulted that? If nothing gets your pulse going, great. More power to you. I happen to feel extremely angered by what whart said. I wouldn't go to war over it, but it did make me lose a lot of respect for him. It is beyond absurd to suggest wiping out or outlawing Islam for the sake of a few Islamic fundamentalists. It is not even a religious conflict, but one small band of nutcases (Al Qa'eda) against the western world. True, they claim a religious right to do what they are doing, but to actually extrapolate from this that Islam is to blame is pretty retarded. Thankfully, idiots like you are not in power. No need to be sorry. Why apologize for being what you truly are? I am not scared of your "threats" against Muslims. Slightly saddened perhaps, but that's it. You called me your friend--I am sure that was a mistake. Personally, I have higher standards. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2630 Registered: 1-2002 |
Perhaps because, in these despotic countries, the terrorists have nearly all the guns & bombs, and will use them against their own at the drop of a hat. Also, nearly every faith in the world is, in the aggregate, less thasn tolerant of other faiths. Thsi is certainly not the sole province of Islam---just of a few sacreligious zealots who just want to use religion to murder (again, a side-effect of multiple religions; remember the Crusades & teh Spanish Inquisition?). | ||
| G. Green (Mr_green)
Junior Member Username: Mr_green Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2003 |
I know I am going to get hell for what I'm about to say. The United Stated has been pushing around country's since the revolutionary war. It's all part of Imperalism. We must seek out raw materials and cheap labor so we can live our comfortable lifestyle here in the states. In doing so we have stepped on a lot of toes. It's all about karma, what goes around comes around. | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 279 Registered: 4-2003 |
Maybe my impression is wrong but I don't think Muslim countries are particularly tolerant of other faiths. If Islam is a religion of peace and the true believers are embarassed/outraged/shocked at the bastardization of their faith then why havn't they driven the terrorists out of their midst? That was certainly a nice trick a bunch of peace loving folk played with a bus today. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 121 Registered: 5-2003 |
Faisal.... Just to put his point and my seconding it into perspective......if the powers that be really believed and were prepared to act as thought it was a war on Islam....that's all it would take. 30 minutes.....max. Your feelings are hurt......well I'm not sorry....... As an athiest I can proudly say I will never go to war over religious beliefs. But to those who want war with us you had better ask yourselves if you are so sure. If we have to remove the entire Arab/Muslim world from the face of this planet to accomplish an end to their madness...then so be it...I have absolutely no problem in making that statement and backing it up with a desire to see it happen if necessary. You had better hope that a terrorist screaming Allah Akhbar doesn't set of a nuke in NY harbor....... Please direct your anger at those who are doing this before it's too late for you to do so. I think the Iraqi's will be turning in a few people pretty soon as they are now dying as a result of homicide bombings directed at them. Your anger is misplaced my friend.....the US has been very restrained in it's military actions...too say the least. I don't know you......so don't be mad at many for what I have said.....be mad at those who have put you in this position. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2629 Registered: 1-2002 |
Bill Hart, I sure hope you are joking. Islam is a religion of peace. These bastards blaspheme it by murderimg thousands in the name of "Allah". True Muslims are embarassed/outraged/shocked at that bastardization of their religion crap. I hope you were joking. Now, if you really meant going after Saudi Arabia (and not the Islamic religion), well, that is probably long overdue. But nukes are a bit OTT, wouldn't you say? | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 892 Registered: 3-2003 |
Kds, I deleted it because it was a knee-jerk reaction to what whart posted. I honestly don't feel that way. I can't believe whart's post. As a non-Muslim, I don't think you are capable of understanding how incendiary that statement is. I am pretty livid about it. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5768 Registered: 8-2002 |
As long as you agree not to retort with any information from the equally opposing "loonies" - but then that would leave us in a stalemate, wouldn't it...? Trolling for rage...? Hmmmm... That's a new one... i have enough, why would i troll for more...? | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2003 |
If this is going to be a humorous thread, and who knows.......it's only just begun.......I would force all the Gitmo Bay inhabitants to read and then memorize Hillary Clinton's "Living History" for starters.......... | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 691 Registered: 10-2001 |
DES finally some humor�. Well before this gets all serious I read books Mad Magazine Terrorist Olympic Games Gold Medal - Crashing Planes Saudi Arabia disenfranchised young men. Gold Medal - Raping and torturing your own people- Iraq ruling party Gold Medal - Blowing your self up- Palestinians religious nuts. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2003 |
I second Mr. Hart's motion.......pass the two keys please and turn on the count of 3. Faisal...I see that you edited out your "put all the Jews back in the ashtray" comment rather hastily. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2627 Registered: 1-2002 |
DES, since you are just trolling for rage, I ain't gonna give it to ya. But I will ask you for ANY shred of proof that doesn't involve reading books published by loonies that proves that our president had any role in what you so outrageously allege. Any at all. I can't wait to see what you dredge up this time. Also waiting for you to join Alec "I'll leave the country if Bush becomes President" Baldwin whenever he gets his fat thumb out & finally leaves. The hypocrite. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 891 Registered: 3-2003 |
whart, I am ashamed at the depths you sink to, and almost cause me to sink to. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5767 Registered: 8-2002 |
PDX - ROTMFFLMMFFFARTFO...!!! | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 278 Registered: 4-2003 |
Whart That would certainly cause the Shiite to hit the fan. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 690 Registered: 10-2001 |
If we didn't have religion... we wouldn't have terrorism. I would make religion agasinst the law. But since we can't get to the real evil, we are going to have to do something. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5766 Registered: 8-2002 |
If i were in charge (President, let's say...?), i wouldn't have co-conspired to fly planes into the trade center and kill thousands of innocents just to fill my own agenda... That's probably the first thing i wouldn't have done to handle the "terrorists"... Hot damn, i can feel the fire already... | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1587 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sept. 12, 2001. Nuke Mecca. Next? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2625 Registered: 1-2002 |
This ought to be interesting... Great question, Lou! | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 276 Registered: 4-2001 |
Seems many on these threads are excellent and in some cases convincing at trashing Bush , Ashcroft, capitalism, the Iraq war, the Country in general, etc etc but if you were in charge, SERIOUSLY, what would you do to protect the country and end terrorism? Trashing is easy compared to doing. |