| Author | Message | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2480 Registered: 10-2002 |
For those who are interested here is a discussion of MKII tubs and 1012 in particular. http://www.gt40s.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=21859&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post21876 | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
New member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 45 Registered: 8-2002 |
Neither DMV or Davis even acknowledged that I sent them both telegrams. Since I never tried to register it in Calif it was a moot point. I've had SO MANY..I wish I had just 10% of them back. 5 orig 427 Cobras a Lola t-70 open car and on and on. I was way ahead of my time on vintage cars now they are so damn scarce and expensive that I don't have any! A CS and Spider waiter.. | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
New member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 44 Registered: 8-2002 |
drove from Alamo to oakland daily. Recd couple of loudness tickets when I was running straight pipes. Then I unbolted put the muffler ones back on and got a different CHP to sign-off on it. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1980 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wayne, That's awesome! Good choice going with the GT40. I live in the Bay Area right now and can't even begin to imagine a GT40 driving around there. What a sight that must have been! Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2403 Registered: 10-2002 |
That's funny about customs. Did Calif DMV issue you document's? Do you presently have any classics? Best | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
New member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2002 |
brian Wingdfield made replica "D" types when I was in England he showed me one. Factory people examined it and hasd A VERY difficult time determing if it was original or not.He was meticulous even using original screws etc. he wanted I think 20,000 for ity as I recall. I bought a GT40 road car from him instead at $23,000 that I used as a daily driver going to work in Oakland around 1980. Hot as hell but a blast for the street!!! | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
New member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2002 |
yes it was I remember US customs when we shipped it out had to examine it and couldn't believe I even sent it to England! I was only 33 but knew I had the original crashed burned out tub and made the most of it. I remember sending Don Davis a telegram and Calif DMV telling them that I had the original #1012. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2402 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne Hi. Is the original tub, the burned out one, the one you sent to Brian to rebuild? If so it would seem that that is the original esp. if it has parts of the original tub. Best | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
New member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2002 |
Small world isn't it? at the ripe age of 33 I bought the burned-out tub of #1012 in about 1978. Owner bought NEW tub from Holman-Moody.Guy who had the grey car Symbolic sold disposed of original tub to someone I knew. I sent orig tub to England for ground up re-build. Etheridge and the Brian Wingfield did the re-build. If you need more info just call me (think I paid about $9000 for tub and pieces) Wayne 909 383-9000 | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 899 Registered: 11-2002 |
Taek,
I absolutely agree with this comment. Many replicas are built and the owner cannot help themselves and they have to make them heaps more powerful ... thus they end up with something that does not drive anything like the original. Take the F40 replica that has been made in NZ, the engine would have completely different characteristics than a real F40 ... thus is it really a replica of an F40 or a LOOK-ALIKE. Even the C-type, D-type Jag reps use the bigger engine, and some even the XJ6 rear suspension, thus you are not obtaining the same driving experience at all. Personally the goal of creating a replica of an historic car is to replicate the driving experience, not to make a LOOK-ALIKE, thus you need to get the engine characteristics similar, weight similar, chassis balance similar, braking performance similar, etc. The best GT40 replicas I have seen are the ERD ones made in the US, they even have a monocoque chassis ... but even they have widened it for comfort and airconditioning ... but I bet they really drive like the original (if you can control yourself and get the engine built to the lowly original specs). Pete | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 327 Registered: 9-2002 |
Doody, Brian Wingfield, rings a bell when I was about 16 or so (1988..) I knew a wingfield (or rather his daughter!) who occasionaly drove a GT40, could this be the same bloody loud car! | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1973 Registered: 11-2002 |
Red, Any word from the factory on that order? If the item is stocked, how long is the shipping? Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1972 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks for the referral Jim. I left you a voicemail on your mobile phone a couple of days ago. Did you receive it? Dave, I just sent you a PM. Cheers | ||
| Red (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 314 Registered: 12-2001 |
James, Sorry I missed you at The Historics. I was busy in the Bentley Booth, and only had a chance to "explore" the paddock once. I do have information on the Speed 8 as well, so, feel free to contact me @ [email protected] | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1587 Registered: 11-2001 |
the account of 1012 in Ronnie Spain's book, as it relates to this issue, is as follows: .... On 21 March 1967 it was destroyed by Peter Revson in a 185 mph testing accident at Daytona, the recently installed roll-cage saving his life. In 1969 the wreck was sold to Don Davis near San Francisco who eventually realised it was beyond repair. On 2 August 1971 he bought an unused spare RHD chassis from JWA to build up as a replacement, completing it to all intents and purposes as a Mark II. ... Meanwhine the scrapped tub had been given as a souvenir to Lyle Digness for his help in building the new car. However, as the value of GT40s - even wrecked ones - soared, Digness sold the tub to Walter Cantrell in Napa, California. In 1976 he part-exchanged it with Wayne Skiles in Oakland, California, who shipped it to England in 1978, where a four-year reconstruction was begun under the supervision of Brian Wingfield. Around a third of the chassis proved salvageable, the tub basically being reroofed and refloored and having the rear bulkhead and fuel sponsons rebuilt. ... In 1981 it was sold to Andy Harmon of Mississippi during the rebuild. In early 1984 it was sold via Nick Soprano's Classic Motor Corp., in New York to Peter Livanos. i believe his book GT40 An Individual History and Race Record was written in 1986, so it's not 100% up-to-date. fwiw, doody | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2396 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek That's a good question. As far as MKII's go Lee Holman is the one to ask as he's driven both and his continuation MKII is a close to an original as you can get. (It's also not cheap). As, so far as I know the CAV's, GTD's, and ERA's are not spot on I suspect they'd be different. I've never driven a replica GT40 so I'm not sure. Nick Sapprano at Motor Classics has and has both for sale. I'd give him a call. He has a nice MKIII original that I think is in your range. Give him a call @ 914 997 9133. Mention my name. The MKII Bill has for sale "1012" is also interesting as if it's bill of sale certifies it as pre 68 it's street legal without smog. (At least in NY.) Pure replica's are tricky to register in some states but a pre 68 original so far as I know is legal. (If your looking for a track car this isn't an issue) | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6001 Registered: 12-2000 |
I'm not involved, just relaying the message. Bill is in the process of registering for the site right now. Interesting any way you put it. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1971 Registered: 11-2002 |
If someone builds a "replica" how are the driving dynamics different from the original? It seems that there are several tiers even within the replica hierarchy. You have the recreations, the replicas and the kit cars. Are the originals and recreations the only way to get the real driving experience? I figure replicas are built on a different chassis/tub/monocoque and kit cars are based on donor vehicles (so probably far from how the originals drove). Jim, Have you driven any of the GT40 replicas? ie. CAV that had a stand at the Historics or ERA. What about the recreations? How do they stack up? The 427 Cobras (non SC spec) are right within reach but the cars I really love (GT40s and Daytona Cobras) are way out of the question. So I've been trolling around some sites and popping in sporadic questions but never thought about handling dynamics since I was more interested in capturing the spirit of the car. Now that I think about it, the feel of the drive should really be top priority if its a fake. Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2395 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rob What part of this needs to set straight? According to Lee Holman several copies of "1012" exist. Before anyone buy's this one or ANY GT40. I'd give him a call... BTW if you go to the Symbolic site you'll find full disclosure of this. Unmolested race cars are VERY,VERY,RARE... Not a fake but it is what it is and as it is it is far from correct. Bill summed it up. This is by no means rare. "No Stories" Race Cars are very rare. I saw the other one when Nick owned it. It was yellow at that time. I believe that one made from pieces of the original tub was properely put together. There was a Jag D type like this as well as a Bugatti. In those cases someone bought both examples and put them back into one car. In the end for a price this would make a good track car and Lee could make it correct but it will never IMHO have any major value. I hope no one is implying that anything I said isn't true or that Lee Holman told me that the car in Monterey had several things that are not correct... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6000 Registered: 12-2000 |
Just got this email from Bill Noon at Symbolic... RE: GT40P/1012 Dear Mr. Glickenhaus and others concerned with this car; There are only two GT40s claiming to be 1012 and as of today I have sold both. I had a very long talk with L. Holman. He closely inspected the 1012 we had with us in Monterey. This was a two owner from new car that was bought directly from Shelby American International. It was rebuilt in 1969 with a factory replacement tub. The car retained its original rear bulkhead and according to Lee was one of the only MKIIs he has seen with its original chassis tag still in place. The other MKII claiming to be 1012, I sold in 1995 with a disclaimer noting that it was basically a replica. The price of that car clearly reflected that fact. At the time those who assembled it in the early 80s stated they used some of the scrapped tub pannels that Don Davis through away in 1971. A few years ago they stated to the FIA that they used the panels as templates. Today they say nothing was used. Ten years after the second replica 1012 was built it was badly crashed at Summit Point and was given a mostly new tub again. Lee helped them with panels but nothing fit as the tub in the car at the time of the accident was not an original anyway. The car I just sold is going to France to a friend of the man who has the other 1012. Just wanted to set the record straight. Anyone with further questions may contact me at my office in La Jolla, California 858 454 1800. Warmest Regards Bill Noon | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2391 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill Alas no as I will be at the SVRA Vintage Fest with J6 the following weekend I'll be avec family. Best | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 905 Registered: 2-2002 |
This is not unlike the 250 LM Symbolic had for sale a few years ago. It had been in a fire and the owners threw away the old body and built a new one because it was cheaper to do so. Not sure about the chassis, but I believe it was severely damaged in the fire and not salvageable. They originally priced it at $900,000. When I saw it in La Jolla it was down to $600,000. I'm sure it sold for much less than that. Mr. G: will you be at the Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg Festival over Labor Day weekend? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2390 Registered: 10-2002 |
#5 is what a very famous "no stories" real one looks like...  | ||
| Wolfgang Eistert (53345)
Member Username: 53345 Post Number: 571 Registered: 3-2003 |
James, thanks a lot. Now its understandable for me. Its so close to my business and rules: The Documents/History makes the Price! Wolfgang FORZA FERRARI | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1970 Registered: 11-2002 |
Anyone know how much they are asking for the car? It would be interesting to see what kind of cost is justified to a car with this sort of history. Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2389 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wolfgang Not a fake but it is what it is and as it is it is far from correct. Bill summed it up. This is by no means rare. "No Stories" Race Cars are very rare. I saw the other one when Nick owned it. It was yellow at that time. I believe that one made from pieces of the original tub was properely put together. There was a Jag D type like this as well as a Bugatti. In those cases someone bought both examples and put them back into one car. In the end for a price this would make a good track car and Lee could make it correct but it will never IMHO have any major value. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Advanced Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2699 Registered: 4-2002 |
SURE JIM..BUT MY WIFE WENT MALL SHOPPING WITH THE KIDS TODAY FOR BACK TO SCHOOL CRAP...DONT KNOW WHATS LEFT ON IT..BUT ILL LET YOU KNOW  | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 904 Registered: 2-2002 |
Interesting. it seems that the original owner made a major mistake by giving the original chassis away (and also not retaining the chassis plate). In the world of vintage racers this sort of thing isn't rare, but it is kind of sad. In some ways, neither car is 1012. Jim, since your budy Nick Soprano used to own the second car, how does he feel about it? | ||
| Wolfgang Eistert (53345)
Member Username: 53345 Post Number: 570 Registered: 3-2003 |
is this one http://www.symbolicmotors.com/frames/images/Classics/CurrentClassics/1965FordGT40_1012/1965FordGT40_1012.html realy a fake James???? With such a great history & dealer reputation? Wolfgang FORZA FERRARI | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2388 Registered: 10-2002 |
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| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 2410 Registered: 7-2001 |
Bruce, if I email you will you give ME your credit card too? | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Advanced Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2698 Registered: 4-2002 |
JIM ILL TAKE 1...EMAIL ME FOR MY CREDIT CARD # BRUCE | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2387 Registered: 10-2002 |
If anyone is looking for a MAJOR MKII I know of one for sale at 2.5 Million. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2676 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yeah, even on the Symbolic site, they acknowledge ownership histories of two 1012's. BTW, Lee Holman is a VERY nice guy. Brian Redman introduced me to him last October at Roebling, where he (Lee) spun his GT40 replica off the final turn on the warm up lap RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME (in an early McLaren Can-Am car) and skidded backwards across the grass into a tree. Lee was OK, the car was done for the weekend, sadly. But Lee was very chipper, and a very gracious man! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2386 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave According to Lee Holman several copies of "1012" exist. Before anyone buy's this one or ANY GT40. I'd give him a call... BTW if you go to the Symbolic site you'll find full disclosure of this. Unmolested race cars are VERY,VERY,RARE... | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2674 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jim, Did you see that one of the GT40 #1012 cars is for sale at Symbolic? |