| Author |
Message |
DL (Darth550)
Junior Member
Username: Darth550
Post Number: 143
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:32 pm: | |
......Heard a good one today:
This lawyer walks into his partner's office, closes the door and asks,
"Hey, have you fu*ked the receptionist yet?"
"No" he replies.
"Good! so then YOU fire her."
DL
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Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 1441
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 2:16 pm: | |
Hello from Little Rock. Interesting thread.
"Now, ask yourself: how many people with whom you were acquainted have died mysteriously or violently in the past 10 years."
Only two, and they were right here in Little Rock. Restaurant owner across the street was murdered by one of his own employees. I ate lunch there once or twice a week. They caught the killer within a week. He was sentenced to life in prison 2 weeks ago.
Next door neighbor killed herself with a 9mm to the head.
But statistics can be manipulated to serve ones needs. As I said in a previous thread, it's like lawyers in a courtroom. They only want to tell the side of the truth that helps THEIR side of the story. They have no interest in telling the WHOLE truth.
The biggest problem I had with Billy Boy was the way he sat behind closed doors with a giant blank pad of executive orders and filled them out any way that he saw fit. Like a king sitting on his throne spewing out orders without question and without seeking the will of the people. He especially delighted in doing anything possible to initiate more gun control. Like executive orders that prevent any U.S. manufactured firearms that were sold off as military surplus to foreign countries from re-entering the U.S. I believe he did alot of this in his last few weeks of office. Multiple presidential pardons and such.
If the president needs to keep certain executive orders secret in the interest of national security, so be it. But Billy Boy was having a field day doing as he pleased with his blank executive orders to fulfill his fading agenda. He was desperate for a legacy, but unlike his idol, "he's no Jack Kennedy". Duh, obviously. Just look at his women. Monica versus Marilyn Monroe?????
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Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2721
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 9:41 am: | |
Consider the source of all that bitter mean-spiritedness and truth-impaired blather. That indeed does say it all... |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2438
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 8:57 am: | |
This says it all:
http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/sorensen/
\art |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2718
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 7:53 am: | |
DL, actually, no, but these two are:
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J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 105
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 11:26 pm: | |
Sorry for jumping onto this thread late, but been Ferraring all weekend.
Dave,
I believe Clinton had something in the neighborhood of 40 friends or associates die within his 8 year term in office. Now before all you �prove it� gents chime in, I lived through it and heard most of them on the news, CBS,ABC,NBC.
Now my point, it would be unusual if say I had 1000 friends or associates and 40 of them died in an 8 year period. Four or five, maybe ten, but 40? Doesn�t seem plausible, even for a political figure. It just makes more sense that something else happened, given the information they possessed at their demise.
Arthur,
Every year the government spends more money than the prior year, Every President and Congress spends more than their predecessors. Seems odd, but the economy grows most every year, usually about 1.8%, and therefore the Gov collects more in tax revenues.
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DL (Darth550)
Junior Member
Username: Darth550
Post Number: 139
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 9:47 pm: | |
Hey Dave,
One question......one very, very serious question. Is the bullshit meter in your Maranello?
DL |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2710
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 4:45 pm: | |
Art, I am sorry that the SF area is having Texan weather! Yuck!
Good luck with your trial. And as Mark said, that Monster Maranello was stolen shamelessly from another thread, courtesy of our PhotoChop master, MarkPDX.
 |
MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member
Username: Markpdx
Post Number: 322
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 4:07 pm: | |
Art
That picture is from the Ferrari snobs thread. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2436
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 3:43 pm: | |
Dave:
I just noticed that horrible picture of the Ferraris being crushed. That goes beyond the pale!
Art |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2435
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 3:41 pm: | |
Dave:
I'm getting ready for a trial, and don't have the time to specifically research each of the points which you believe are false, but right off the bat the quip about the largest deficit seems to be directly in point: This years' deficit will be the largest we've ever had. As to the comments about the congress appropriating the money, you are dead on, however with one political party in power, it does appear that Mr. Bush has set the agenda, and his party has, for the most part, enacted legislation that he requested. By the way, its been over 100 here, made me think I was in Texas.
Regaqrds,
Art |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2705
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 3:04 pm: | |
Randall, my comments inserted:
"Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury" [Congress appropriates & spends money; the president doesn't; reread your Constitution; that said, Randall, 9/11 and its aftermath have cost tens of billions; additionally, that "surplus" was based on ASSUMPTIONS that the dot-com gold-rush of capital gains tax revenues would just keep on keeping on; as we know, the stock market began its huge downward spiral 10 full mnths before Mr. Bush became president]
"Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history." [if next year's projections actually happen, then this will be true; but as of now, this is a false statement]
"After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history." [first, my bitter, bitter little friend, no president EVER takes a whole month off, so get off your high horse & stop lying; Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagan, et al have all taken summer holidays interspersed with various official functions & trips; for you to imply otherwise is just a partisan LIE; second, until you can prove that Mr. Bush was asleep at the wheel, to suggest that he "presided" over 9/11 is ludicrous at best and disgusting at worst]
"Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period." [uh, Randall? the burden is on YOU to prove this crap; my recollection is that this honor falls on Herbert Hoover, although I may be wrong; but again, you made the claim, you prove it]
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Randall (Randall)
Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 635
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 2:31 pm: | |
"Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury"
"Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history."
"After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history."
"Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period."
You say Clinton did this? Could you explain how, or cite a link to Fox that could provide some information? Or are these some of them that don't fall into the "most" category you applied?
I figure if you're going to constantly bash on Clinton and bash on France, I might as well chime in and bash on that jackass in charge of our country. |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2701
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 2:22 pm: | |
Randall, you are shameless, and typical.
I never--NEVER--said anything was "Clinton's fault". Try reading before you post, OK?
What I did was point out the lies in your bitter, bitter, mean-spirited post, and also point out the FACT that many of these lies actually pertain to Mr. Clinton, and not Mr. Bush, as you allege. That is called "picking apart your bullschit", Randall.
David R, good point...although I am a Libertarian, and neither Demo nor Republican. Next theory?
Thomas I, GREAT post!! |
Randall (Randall)
Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 632
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
The reason I don't bash Clinton is he's out of office. Same reason I don't bash any of the prior presidents. All president have their bad sides.
Using the excuse "It's Clintons fault" for everything that goes wrong in Bush's presidency is pretty sad. I can't wait to hear who's to blame for the next terrorist attack. Will it still be Clintons fault? What about Bush having a 2nd term, will he still be blaming everything on Clinton? |
Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 147
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 1:32 pm: | |
Bill "The Rat" Clinton committed Treason by exchanging military secrets to China for donations. China has used those formerly secret technologies to transform their missile program from innacurate at close range to pinpoint accurate nuclear warheads at long range, thereby taking the US by the balls. His impeachment had nothing to do with a blow job.
Why don't Bush-bashers bash "The Rat"? Because Bush is a Republican and "The Rat" is a Democrat. Bush is doing a commendable job, and "The Rat" should be condemned. Not the other way around.
That's why I, a non-Republican, will post anti-Clinton every time somebody bashes Dubya. Clinton didn't mortgage our future, he sold it.
Read the updated version of "Year of The Rat: How Bill Clinton Compromised US Security for Chinese Cash" for an unappetizing crash-course on Clinton and the damage done, and you might get an idea of what battle is really being fought. |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 192
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 12:51 pm: | |
Dave - My only point is that everything degenerates into a Republican vs. a Democrat debate. The Clinton stuff you point out may in fact be true. However, what is interesting to me (and my point) is that as soon as someone brings up Bush it wont take long for someone to jump on the anti-Clinton bandwagon. My guy is better than your guy. My party is better than your party. Everything is black and white. I dont see it that way. Republicans / Republican presidents have some good points / points of view /stances. I like some of them and like parts of the Democrat ideals / Presidents/ Stances too. It is not black and white for me.
I, being an immigrant to this Country (and love it more than any other) maybe don't understand this. I look at these guys for who they are (vs. their party), what they stand for and how they get the job done. I think Bush Sr. was a far better President and it was a lot easier to have respect for him. Bush Jr. is a whole different story. Without his Daddy/Family etc., he would not have amnounted to much. I do not think he is doing a great job - we are starting to mortgage our future. I did however support Bush and going into Iraq and getting rid of Hussein (with or without WMD's). We could probably have been more honest about our intentions and built a better coalition without pissing off a lot of other countries. I could care less about the French and their opinion tho. |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2700
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 12:32 pm: | |
David R asks why "Even Dave (Maranelloman) who typically seems to be quite intelligent, responds by saying that most of the observations about Bush and his issues in Texas - actually apply to or were caused by Clinton!!"
Why? Because it is a fact! It might as well be Herbert Hoover and Clinton--doesn't matter: Randall posted many, many things about Mr. Bush that simply are NOT TRUE, and in fact apply to his predecessor instead. This is the only reason for my post. The ones that Randall posted that DO apply to Mr. Bush, I did not cite.
Thanks for the compliment, by the way. |
DL (Darth550)
Junior Member
Username: Darth550
Post Number: 137
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 11:32 am: | |
Art,
Funny thing. I, myself, realize that making a statement such as mine was inherently hypocritical. My stated opinion was to not opine! What a country!!
I agree that our opinions count to ourselves, and that we, as narcissists, would like for all to agree with us (in our own circles). However, the majority if opinion is driven by propaganda, not truth and most people are too easily manipulated. By the time the masses begin to get wise to a political play, another ensues.
Motto: Create confusion in order to divert attention from the underlying issue. 9/11 woke everyone up didn't it? Afghanistan was sold to us as viable. Iraq is rapidly losing it's luster. Whats next? Maybe the state of California will be looted. Oops, too late for that one. Maybe we should recall the governor and install another action hero?
It is easy to get revved up about the current state of affairs but it won't create any success for me Monday morning when I start my work week.
My point was that I simply prefer to tend to my own garden.
DL |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 190
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 11:32 am: | |
I think this is an interesting thread and somewhat typical of American politics.. Someone started this thread by saying that GWB had a shitty resume. Then people respond by saying Clinton had a worse resume and was linked to deaths of people that could potentially have harmed him. Why is it when someone in the US questions a political figure that it turns into a Republican vs. Democrat debate? Even Dave (Maranelloman) who typically seems to be quite intelligent, responds by saying that most of the observations about Bush and his issues in Texas - actually apply to or were caused by Clinton!!
Why is it that Clinton always comes up when someone says anything about Bush? That seems juvenile to me. |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2698
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 11:12 am: | |
Art, I am VERY glad that you actually think Mr. Bush has not been a disaster. What a surprise!
Below, I have posted the parts of Randall's propaganda that are NOT true, in my observation; in fact MOST OF THESE APPLY TO CLINTON, and not Bush:
Accomplishments: Made Texas the most polluted state in the Union; Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. [for one year only; LA has resumed its decades-long championship crown]
Bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money.
Became president with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.
Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.
Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.
Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.
Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.
First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.
First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.
After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.
Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.
Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.
Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.
Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.
Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history.
[learn an ounce of history BEFORE you lie, Randall; no President can amend the COnstitution]
Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have. [thank god on that last point!! Clinton & Gore were PANDERING MORONS for doing so]
Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind
Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.
Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history.
First president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt. [sorry, Randall, they aren't, you patholigal liar]
Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.
First president in US history to order a US attack and occupation of a sovereign nation.
Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.
Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.
First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission. [had no relation to Bush; he does NOT control the UN]
Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
Withdrew from the World Court of Law. [we were never part of it; Congress never ratified]
Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.
First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.
First president to run and hide when the US came under attack
(and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
First US president to establish a secret shadow government.
Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.
First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.
Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.
Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'. [still ongoing]
In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.
Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.
In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.
Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
(Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).
AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.
Refused to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
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Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 2329
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 10:41 am: | |
quote:Wayne.. I love ya but, Who Cares?
I never get involved in political threads but it's just that every time one of these email hoaxes makes the rounds, somebody takes it to be the truth and posts it here for all to see. My point is that, before you contribute to spreading BS, at least spend the two seconds it takes to check it out. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2434
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 10:25 am: | |
DL:
YOu're right, but you're wrong. Your suggestion about how to live your life is dead on. However: Opinions do count. If enough people beleive a certain way, it will effect the direction this country goes. A good many of us here have achieved a little success, and rightly or wrongly, people sometimes do listen to us. The ability of our leaders to listen to those whose economics are good is pretty clear: who attends those fund raising dinners? People whose economics are good and who have ideas about how this country should be run. I'm willing to bet there are more than a few of us here who've met senators, presidents, etc.
There is nothing wrong with an honest discourse about our governance, just as long as it doesn't get personal, and facts are used in the discussion.
Art |
DL (Darth550)
Junior Member
Username: Darth550
Post Number: 136
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 9:47 am: | |
Does anyone here actually think George 43 is on this message board (or any other) biting his nails while worrying about the opinions posted here?
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO IS IN OFFICE! Whichever party is in, we are destined to have half of what we make taken from us. Call it what you want. Income tax, sales tax, road improvement tax, property tax, tax on gasoline, tobacco, whatever...the money is gone. Hire a smart lawyer and an accountant with a blindfold.
Here's the/my solution. Outearn what they take/steal from you. Live in the safest area that you can. Love your family, your few true friends and travel when you get the chance. Only believe half of what you hear or read and don't sweat the small stuff. Let the rest go. To gnash, grind and grit your teeth, while snorting about Bush, Iraq, France or who/whatever will simply end with you needing expensive dental work! Your problem alone (hope your provider didn't change your coverage AGAIN yesterday)! Or be a crusader...hopefully not a martyr. (That simply depends upon how many people buy into the rhetoric and if the party/power broker du jour gets scared).
I believe that most (so called) individual opinions are analogous to radio ratings. So many people don't even have a clue what they believe....only spew the opinion of the last AM talkradio host they listened to on their way to work for the man.
Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you I have always said the the same thing.
OK, I'm off my soapbox and headed to the hills for a little run!
DL
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Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 455
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 8:56 am: | |
ROFL... many here seem to be obsessed with their own importance. Wayne.. I love ya but, Who Cares? Nothing posted by liberal, bitter, Ex- vets ( but never soliders) or other tree hugging, utopian seeking lost causes is going to change how the true believers feel about America or GW. Over 4 decades on this planet has taught me that any nitwit can arrange data to fit their needs. Lawyers and other educated mouth breathers can "spin" just about nothing into whatever they want ( shall we look at the Tabacco lawsuits, or perhaps all the times Ford has been sued over Nothing).
Thankfully, nothing posted here and none of the egotistic posters have much sway about how this country is run. Rant on.. I am going back out to the beach and enjoy the sun and a few drinks. Remember guys... you are just car owners.. And if Enzo had been able to ru the comapny like hs did in the early days.... NONE of us would be able to even buy a Ferrari. He hated rich american Diletanti |
KCCK (Kenneth)
Member
Username: Kenneth
Post Number: 628
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 5:59 am: | |
Wayne,
You typed out all that? |
Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 140
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 7:46 pm: | |
Wayne is absolutely correct about checking accuracy - I foolishly overlooked one of my own basic rules when seeing lists, claims and so forth, whether via email or found on net: check with snopes.com before posting. Doh!
Clearly, I didn't intend to waste anybody's time by posting the list I didn't double-check first - *BUT* were Clinton's "resume" to be compiled - his bag of dirty tricks would make the Bush "resume" pale in comparison. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2433
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 4:16 pm: | |
Here's an interesting web site that does lay open Bush's duplicity:
http://www.accuracy.org/
As to those that would discount the statements in the Web site: I suggest you do a Wayne Ausbrooks and document and proof your statements.
Art |
Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 2322
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 4:12 pm: | |
Okay, to be fair:
http://www.crossbearer.com/resume/The_Truth.pdf |
Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 2321
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
I'm by no means a fan of Bill Clinton, but, before you guys post all of this crap you receive by email, try doing a quick check at Snopes.com for potential hoaxes.
From: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm
Claim: Bill Clinton has been quietly doing away with those who oppose him.
Status: False.
Origins: A new version of a lengthy list of deaths associated with Bill Clinton began circulating on the the Internet in August 1998. According to it,
there have been close to fifty suspicious deaths of colleagues, advisors and citizens who were about to testify against the Clintons, with the unstated implication that Bill Clinton or his henchmen were behind each untimely demise.
We shouldn't have to tell anyone not to believe this claptrap, but we will anyway. In a frenzied media climate where the Chief Executive couldn't boff a White House intern without the whole world finding out every niggling detail of each encounter and demanding his removal from office, are we seriously to believe the same man had been having double handfuls of detractors and former friends murdered with impunity?
Don't be swayed by the number of names listed on screeds like this. Any public figure is bound to have a much wider circle of acquaintance than an ordinary citizen would. Moreover, the acquaintance is often one-sided -- though many of the people enumerated on this list might properly claim to have known Clinton, he wouldn't know or remember having met a great number of them.
"Body count" lists are not a new phenomenon. Lists documenting all the allegedly "suspicious" deaths of persons connected with the assassination of John F. Kennedy have been circulating for decades, and the same techniques used to create and spread the JFK lists have been employed in the Clinton version:
List every dead person with even the most tenuous of connections to your subject. It doesn't matter how these people died, or how tangential they were to your subject's life. The longer the list, the more impressive it looks and the less likely anyone is to challenge it. By the time readers get to the bottom of the list, they'll be too weary to wonder what could possibly be relevant about the death of Clinton's mother's chiropractor.
Play word games. Make sure every death is presented as "mysterious." All accidental deaths are to be labelled "suspicious," even though by definition accidents occur when something unexpected goes wrong. Every self-inflicted death discussed must include the phrase "ruled a suicide," to imply just the opposite. When an autopsy contradicts a "mysterious death" theory, dispute it; when none was performed because none was needed, claim that "no autopsy was allowed." Make liberal use of words such as 'allegedly' and 'supposedly' to dismiss facts you can't contradict with hard evidence.
Make sure every inconsistency or unexplained detail you can dredge up is offered as evidence of a conspiracy, no matter how insignificant or pointless it may be. If an obvious suicide is discovered wearing only one shoe, ignore the physical evidence of self-inflicted death and dwell on the missing shoe. You don't have to establish an alternate theory of the death; just keep harping that the missing shoe "can't be explained."
If the data doesn't fit your conclusion, ignore it. You don't have to explain why the people who claim to have the most damaging goods on Clinton -- Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, Linda Tripp, Monica Lewinsky, Kenneth Starr -- are still walking around unscathed while dozens of bit players have been bumped off. It's inconvenient for you, so don't mention it.
Most importantly, don't let facts and details stand in your way! If you can pass off a death by pneumonia as a "suicide," do it! If a cause of death contradicts your conspiracy theory, claim it was "never determined." If your chronology of events is impossible, who cares? It's not like anybody is going to check up on this stuff . . .
This Clinton "body count" list is not a new phenomenon -- multiple versions have been circulating for years. New victim names are routinely added and old ones taken off, forming an endless variety of permutations. At this point, there is no one "official" list.
But where did all this craziness start? In 1994, in a letter to congressional leaders, former Rep. William Dannemeyer listed 24 people with some connection to Clinton who had died "under other than natural circumstances" and called for hearings on the matter.
Dannemeyer's list of "suspicious deaths" was largely taken from one compiled by Linda Thompson, an Indianapolis lawyer who in 1993 quit her year-old general practice to run her American Justice Federation, a for-profit group that promotes pro-gun causes and various conspiracy theories through a shortwave radio program, a computer bulletin board and sales of its newsletter and videos.
Her list, called "The Clinton Body Count: Coincidence or the Kiss of Death?" then contained the names of 34 people she believed died suspiciously and who had ties to the Clinton family. Thompson admitted she had "no direct evidence" of Clinton killing anyone. Indeed, she said the deaths were probably caused by "people trying to control the President" but refused to say who they were. Thompson said her allegations of murder "seem groundless only because the mainstream media haven't done enough digging."
Ah, but they had. If not before she put her list together, at least afterwards. Anyone who continues to state the mainstream media has given these claims short shrift is being disingenuous.
Since 1994, various respected news outlets have been confronted with versions of the "Clinton Body Count" list, run their own investigations of a few of the claims, and found nothing to substantiate what they looked into. Those investigations would culminate in yet another story about an oddball conspiracy rumor.
But conspiracy theories don't die that easily. These "body count" lists and the many specious claims contained therein continue to circulate in cyberspace and beyond: yesterday's newspaper articles are forgotten with the next day's delivery, but e-mail lives forever.
Let's take this new version apart line by line. The sections which appear in a highlighted color are the "Clinton Body Count" e-mail, while the sections in ordinary text color are my comments.
Much of the evidence will never be known because many people who were witnesses or who possessed evidence of some kind suffered mysterious deaths prior to being able to come forward.
In other words, "We can't prove that all these people had information damaging to Bill Clinton, but since they're dead now we can simply assert that they did without fear of contradiction."
The list compiled here is not complete and is not detailed. It is presented to show how extensive the problem is and to illustrate that all these deaths could not be just a coincidence.
Translation: "If I included all the details, it would expose what a canard this list really is. And hinting that there's even more than I could list here makes it sound all the more ominous."
1. Mary Mohane - former White House intern gunned down in a coffee shop. Nothing was taken. It was suspected that she was about to testify about sexual harassment at the White House.
Former White House intern Mary Caitrin Mahoney, 25, manager of a Georgetown Starbucks, was killed along with two co-workers (Emory Allen Evans, 25 and Aaron David Goodrich, 18) on 6 July 1997 during a robbery of the shop. In March 1999 Carl Derek Havord Cooper (29) of Washington was arrested and charged with these murders.
Yes, it is unusual that three employees were killed in the course of a robbery during which nothing was taken. According to Cooper's 26 April 2000 guilty plea (he received life with no hope of parole), he went to the Starbucks to rob the place, figuring the receipts from the July 4 weekend would make for a fat take. He came in after closing, waved a .38, and ordered all three Starbucks employees into the back room. Once there, Mahoney made a run for it after Cooper fired a warning shot into the ceiling. She was ordered back to the room, but then went for the gun. Cooper shot her, then afterwards shot the other two employees. He left empty-handed, afraid the shots had attracted police attention. As regrettable as these three deaths were, this was nothing but a case of a robbery gone wrong.
And, right away, we have come to the first big lie of the "Clinton Body Count" list: Any unexplained death can automatically be attributed to President Clinton by inventing a connection between him and the victim. Mary Mahoney did once work as an intern at the White House, but so have hundreds of other people who are all still alive. There is no credible reason why, of all the interns who have served in the Clinton White House, Ms. Mahoney alone would be the target of a Clinton-directed killing. (Contrary to public perception, very few interns work in the West Wing of the White House or have any contact with the President. The closest most interns get to the chief executive is a brief handshake or a group photo.)
The putative reason offered for Mahoney's slaying -- that she was about to testify about sexual harrassment in the White House -- was a lie. This absurd justification apparently sprang from a hint dropped by Mike Isikoff of Newsweek just before the Monica Lewinsky scandal broke that a "former White House staffer" with the initial "M" was about to talk about her affair with Clinton. We all know now, of course, that the "staffer" referred to was Monica Lewinsky, not Mary Mahoney. The conspiracy buffs maintained that White House hit men rushed out, willy-nilly, and gunned down the first female ex-intern whose name began with "M" they could find.
2. Vincent Foster - former White House Counsel, found dead of a gunshot wound to the head and ruled a suicide. He had significant knowledge of the Clintons' financial affairs and was a business partner with Hillary. If the Clintons are guilty of the crimes they are accused of by Larry, Vincent Foster would have detailed knowledge of those crimes.
This laundry list of deaths always refers to someone taking his life as "ruled a suicide," thus implying another conclusion of equal likelihood was capriciously dismissed by someone who had the power to do so. From here on, read "ruled a suicide" as "an investigation was carried out, arriving at this as the only reasonable conclusion."
White House deputy counsel Vince Foster committed suicide on the night of 20 July 1993 by shooting himself once in the head, a day after he contacted his doctor about his depression. A note in the form of a draft resignation letter was found in the bottom of his briefcase a week after his death. (Note that this letter was not, as is often claimed, a "suicide note." It was Foster's outline for a letter of resignation.) Foster cited negative Wall Street Journal editorials about him. He was also upset about the much-criticized role of the counsel's office in the controversial firing of seven White House travel office workers.
On 10 October 1997, special prosecutor Kenneth Starr released his report on the investigation into Foster's death, the third such investigation (after ones conducted by the coroner and Starr's predecessor, Robert B. Fiske) of the matter. The 114-page summary of a three-year investigation concluded that Foster shot himself with the pistol discovered in his right hand. There was no sign of a struggle, nor any evidence he'd been drugged or intoxicated or that his body had been moved.
If Foster had been murdered or if unanswered questions about his death remained, Starr would have been the last person to want to conclude the investigation prematurely. Or are we to believe Starr is part of the cover up, too? And if we buy into the conspiracy theory, what are we expected to believe? That a group of professional killers capable of carrying out dozens of murders all over the world shot Vince Foster, then clumsily dumped him in a park (after he had bled out), planted a gun he didn't own in his hand (without bothering to press his fingerprints onto it), amateurishly forged a suicide note (in several different handwritings), and then seriously expected the nation would believe it was suicide? Claims too crazy to believe are never discounted when they're needed to help establish a conspiracy, of course.
3. C. Victor Raiser, II - former National Finance Co-Chairman of Clinton for President, and Montgomery Raiser, his son. Both died in a suspicious private plane crash in Alaska. No cause determined. Raiser was considered to be a major player on the Clinton team.
All plane crashes are "suspicious," because airplanes are supposed to stay in the air, and when they don't it's because something went terribly wrong. Pilot error and mechanical failure are by far the most common causes underlying any crash. The National Transportation Safety Board investigates every downed plane in the U.S., and though they might not always pin down the exact cause of a crash, they're generally pretty good about ruling out the use of explosives or mechanical tampering. If the NTSB doesn't find evidence of tampering or explosives, that's not what downed the plane, and we're left with pilot error and mechanical failure as our choices.
Raiser, his son, and three others died in a plane crash in Alaska on 30 July 1992 during a fishing trip. The pilot and another passenger survived and were hospitalized with severe burns. While the "body count" list claims "no cause determined," the NTSB says otherwise: pilot error in a small plane flying in mountainous terrain during low visibility conditions led to the crash.
Now, consider how ridiculous it is to include this accident on a list of allegedly deliberate deaths. The airplane did not crash due to mechanical failure. The airplane did not crash because it was damaged by fire or explosion. The airplane crashed because its pilot made a mistake. So how could C. Victor Raiser's death possibly have been deliberate? Do you know any pilots willing to intentionally crash their planes? Is there a registry of kamikaze flyers one can hire when one needs a few passengers to be "accidentally" bumped off? Isn't it astounding that the pilot managed to crash his plane and kill the targeted victim, yet ensure his own survival?
See what the NTSB had to say about this accident.
Note that the conspiracy buffs can't even come up with a plausible reason for Raiser's killing other than noting that he was "a major player on the Clinton team," as if that were reason enough. (What about all the other "major players" who aren't dead? How does Clinton ever get anything done if he keeps bumping off anybody with any responsibility in his organization? And isn't it a little foolish to kill off one of your chief financial chairmen three months before a major election? "Yup, I've got all the money I'll ever need for this presidential election; guess I can kill off my finance chairman now.")
4. Paul Tully - DNC Political Director, was found dead in a Little Rock hotel room. No cause was ever determined and no autopsy was allowed. Tully was a key member of the damage control squad and came up with some of the Clinton strategies.
Paul Tully died on 24 September 1992. Problem is, there wasn't anything the least bit unusual about his death, so whoever cooked up this list had to lie and claim that "no cause was ever determined" and "no autopsy was allowed." Au contraire! An autopsy was performed, and Tully's cause of death was determined: a massive heart attack. (Not a surprising demise, since Tully was extremely overweight, a heavy drinker, and a chain smoker.) According to Steve Nawojczyk, the Pulaski County coroner, "An autopsy by the Arkansas medical examiner's office discovered advanced coronary artery disease." He added that investigators found no evidence of external trauma to the body.
Note again that the conspiracy buffs offer no putative reason for Tully's "killing," yet would have us believe that Clinton ordered his chief strategist rubbed out while the most important election of his career was still over a month away.
5. Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser. Found in the woods in Virginia with a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide.
Ed Willey was a former Virginia state senator and a lawyer; his wife Kathleen was active in Democratic state politics, worked as a volunteer (including some fund-raising efforts) on behalf of the Clinton campaign in Virginia in 1992, and later worked as a volunteer in the White House Social Office. Ed Willey's death was as clear cut a case of suicide as one is likely to find. Willey was a desperate, unstable man who (along with his wife) spent money lavishly, stole $275,000 of a client's money, and was about half a million dollars in debt to the IRS. He took his own life on 29 November 1993, leaving behind a suicide note found by his wife: "Saying I'm sorry doesn't begin to explain. I hope one day you will forgive me."
At the same time as Willey was killing himself, his wife was allegedly being groped by Clinton. She'd gone to the Chief Executive looking for a job to help her family out of its financial crisis and found herself fending off Clinton's advances. Clinton admits to the meeting but denies her version of what went on during it. Kathleen Willey testified in Paula Jones' harrassment suit against Clinton, but she's never claimed that Clinton had her husband killed.
Yet again, no reason is offered as to why Clinton would supposedly want to see Willey dead.
6. Hershell Friday - Clinton fund-raiser. His plane exploded.
Herschel Friday, an Arkansas lawyer who had been on the Clinton campaign finance committee, died in a airplane accident on 1 March 1994. His plane did not "explode"; the elderly (73-year-old) Friday, at the controls, crashed it during an attempted landing on a poorly-lighted private airfield at dusk on a dark and drizzly day. Nothing suspicious about this one, hence the need to claim that the plane "exploded." That always sounds suspicious.
See what the NTSB had to say about this accident.
Again, no reason is offered why Clinton would have wanted to dispose of Friday.
7. Jerry Parks - former security team member for Governor Clinton. Prior to his death he had compiled an extensive file on Clinton's activities. His family had reported being followed and his home broken into just before being gunned down at a deserted intersection.
On 26 September 1993, Luther (Jerry) Parks was hit with ten bullets from a 9-mm semiautomatic handgun as he left a Mexican restaurant at the edge of Little Rock. His murder remains unsolved.
Parks' security company guarded Clinton's campaign headquarters in 1992. Parks' son, Gary, asserts in Circle of Power and The Clinton Chronicles (both video products of Linda Thompson's American Justice Federation) that his father collected a secret file of Clinton's indiscretions, and that his father was using the file to try to blackmail the Clinton campaign. (He also claims that Vince Foster knew of the file's existence.) Despite these allegations, the younger Parks has failed to produce the mysterious file, and Clyde Steelman, the homicide sergeant with the Little Rock police force, dismissed Gary Parks' theories of his father's death as "unsubstantiated, nothing to grasp." A far more likely suspect in the murder is Jerry Parks' former partner, with whom Parks had quarreled bitterly.
8. John Wilson - former Washington D.C. council member. Had ties to Whitewater. Died of a very suspicious hanging suicide.
John Wilson was the chairman of the District of Columbia Council, and his suicide was far from "very suspicious": Wilson had a long history of depression, was wrestling with marital problems, and had tried to kill himself on at least four other occasions. He finally succeeded on 19 May 1993. Upon his death, Wilson's wife said, "[His] depression was an inherited problem; that he was able to contribute so much over the years in the face of his disability was a miracle." Police said that he did not leave a note and that there were no signs of foul play.
Wilson had absolutely nothing in common with Clinton other than that they worked in the same city (i.e., Washington, D.C.). The claim that Wilson had anything to do with Whitewater is laughable (and rathert pathetic).
9. Kathy Ferguson - former wife of Arkansas State Trooper Danny Ferguson, the co-defendant with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Found dead in her living room of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Interestingly, her packed suitcases seemed to indicate she was about to go somewhere.
Kathy Ferguson killed herself with a gunshot to the right temple on 11 May 1993 at the home of her boyfriend, Bill Shelton. Their relationship had fallen on hard times, with each accusing the other of having been unfaithful. Ferguson left behind a suicide note that read: "I can't stay here any longer. Things will never be the same for us. I can't take that." Close by was another note from Shelton questioning her relationship with another man, which Ferguson's daughter said her mother had been upset over.
There was no mention of packed suitcases in any of the reports about Ferguson's death examined so far, but even if there were, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising -- is it so unusual that a woman might be thinking of moving out of the house of a boyfriend who quarreled with her and challenged her fidelity?
Note how tenuous the imagined connections between Clinton and the "victims" are becoming at this point in the list. The ex-wife of an Arkansas state trooper? That's quite a stretch. Moreover, why would anyone kill Kathy Ferguson but not Danny Ferguson?
10. Bill Shelton - Arkansas state trooper and fiance of Kathy Ferguson. Allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself at her grave.
Shelton killed himself over Kathy Ferguson's grave on 12 June 1993. A suicide note was found beside his body. Just a month earlier he had quarreled with his girlfriend, accused her of cheating on him, and driven her to suicide. There's nothing mysterious about his death or his reasons for taking his life. And if the idea that the ex-wife of an Arkansas state trooper was a Clinton "connection" weren't absurd enough, we're now offered the boyfriend of an ex-wife of an Arkansas state trooper.
11. Gandy Baugh - attorney for Dan Lasater in a financial misconduct case. Supposedly jumped out the window of a tall building to commit suicide.
Gandy Baugh died on 8 January 1994 at home. Although causes weren't specified, it's safe to assume people who jump out of tall buildings either die on the spot or in the hospital, not at home.
12. Dr. Donald Rogers - dentist. Killed in a suspicious plane crash on his way to an interview with reporter Ambrose Evans-Pritchard to reveal information about Clinton.
On 3 March 1994 the Cessna carrying a pilot, Donald Rogers, and two other passengers crashed. The pilot had earlier radioed in that he was experiencing electrical trouble and then lost radio contact. The NTSB investigation after the crash revealed that the plane's left generator severely overheated and shut down, leaving the plane without electrical systems. The plane went down far off its planned route, and the pilot was good and lost at the time of the crash.
See what the NTSB had to say about this accident.
13. Stanley Huggins - lawyer investigating Madison Guaranty. Suicide. His extensive report has never been released.
How anyone can confuse dying of pneumonia with suicide is beyond me. Huggins died on 23 June 1994. According Dr. Richard Callery, Delaware's top medical examiner, viral myocarditis and bronchial pneumonia killed Huggins. Lt. Joel Ivory of the University of Delaware police said his exhaustive investigation of Huggins's death turned up "no sign at all of foul play."
14. Florence Martin - Accountant for the CIA and had information on the Barry Seal case. Three gunshot wounds to the head.
On 23 October 1994 69-year-old Florence Martin of Mabelle, Texas (40 miles from Wichita Falls) was murdered in her home by three gunshots to the head through a pillow. She wasn't an accountant for the CIA, though: She worked the graveyard shift at a convenience store in nearby Seymour and had lived in that area for decades. The murder is still unsolved.
15. Suzane Coleman - reportedly had an affair with Clinton. Was seven months pregnant at the time she was found dead of a gun shot wound to the back of the head, ruled suicide.
At the time of Susan Coleman's suicide, Bill Clinton was her law professor. In 1992 an overzealous supporter of George Bush hired investigators to probe this girl's 1977 suicide. They found no evidence that the two had even had an affair. It was an old rumor and a baseless one, and even a determined attempt at muckraking turned up nothing to substantiate it.
16. Paula Grober - Clinton's interpreter for the deaf. Traveled with Clinton from 1978 until her death in 1992 in a one-car accident. There were no witnesses.
The accident took place during the afternoon of 7 December 1992. Paula Gober's car overturned at a curve in the highway, throwing her 33 feet from the vehicle. No one witnessed the accident.
17. Paul Wilcher - attorney investigating corruption. He had investigated federal elections, drug and gun smuggling through Mena, the Waco incident, and had just delivered a lengthy report to Janet Reno. He died in his home of unknown causes.
Wilcher's partially decomposed body was found seated on the toilet in his Washington D.C. home on 22 June 1993. His death was attributed to natural causes. According to The Washington Times, "[H]e was investigating the theory of an 'October Surprise' conspiracy during the 1980 federal election campaign. He had been interviewing an inmate who claimed to have piloted George Bush to Paris so he could secretly seek to delay the release of 52 American hostages in Iran." President Clinton, just a year into his first time, would hardly be likely to give up a key political advantage by bumping off someone who was supposedly about to dig up some major dirt on the Republican party
18. Jon Parnell Walker - RTC investigator who mysteriously fell to his death from an apartment balcony.
I can find nothing about this man, not a report of his death or of his being an Resolution Trust Corporation investigator. Various lists state this tragedy happened on 15 August 1993 at the Lincoln Towers in Arlington, Virginia, but nothing shows up in the newspapers about it.
19. Ron Brown - former DNS Chairman, Commerce Secretary. Reported to have died in a plane crash, but new evidence reveals he may have been shot in the head. He was being investigated by a special investigator and was about to be indicted with 54 others. He spoke publicly of his willingness to "make a deal" with the prosecutors to save himself a few days before the fatal trip. He was not supposed to be on the flight but was asked to go at the last minute. (This count does not include the other business leaders and other passengers who died on this government-sponsored trade mission.)
What "new evidence"? Ron Brown and 34 others were killed in a plane crash in Croatia on 3 April 1996. The plane slammed into a mountain while on landing approach. There were no survivors.
A lot has been made of an x-ray of Brown's skull in which what looks like a round entry wound appears. Closer examination of Brown's skull by military officials revealed no bullet, no bone fragments, no metal fragments and, even more telling, no exit wound.
Simply imagining a scenario under which Ron Brown could have been shot takes one into the realm of the absurd. Was he shot in the head during the flight, in full view of thirty-four other witnesses? (If so, how did they get off the plane?) Did the killers shoot him before the flight, then bundle his body into a seat (just like "Weekend at Bernie's") and hope nobody noticed the gaping hole in his head? Or did Croatian commandos fortuitously appear on the scene to scale a mountain and pump a bullet into the head of an already-dead plane crash victim?
See what the Air Force had to say about this crash.
20. Barbara Wise - Commerce Department secretary. Worked with Ron Brown and John Huang and had extensive knowledge of their activities. Found dead in her locked office the day after Thanksgiving. It was ruled a suicide. Interestingly, she was found partially clothed, bruised, and in a pool of blood.
There was no pool of blood, and Barbara Wise's death was never ruled a suicide by anyone. She was discovered in her Commerce Department office on 29 November 1996 after last being seen alive on 27 November 1996, the day before Thanksgiving. A thorough investigation uncovered no evidence of foul play or suicide. Wise had a history of frequent and severe health problems, including liver ailments. Her death was attributed to natural causes.
21. Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce. John Huang was given a special security clearance by Meissner. Shortly thereafter, he died in the crash of a small plane.
Charles Meissner died in the same plane crash that took the life of Ron Brown, the one in Croatia on 3 April 1996. Fourteen Commerce Department staffers died in that crash, Meissner and Brown among them.
We're now entering an long segment of the list wherein a number of deaths are tied to those of Henry and Ives, who are supposedly linked to Clinton. All of this linkage is one big canard. Henry and Ives had nothing to do with Clinton -- they were two young men who foolishly ripped off drugs from a dealer and were beaten to death in revenge. With no link between Clinton and Henry or Ives, the following eight entries collapse like a house of cards.
22 & 23. Kevin Ives and Don Henry - seventeen-year-old boys who apparently saw something related to drugs in Mena by accident late at night. Officially ruled an accidental death on the train tracks, but evidence shows they died before being placed on the tracks - one of a crushed skull and the other of a knife wound in the back.
Henry and Ives were run over by a train on 23 Aug 1987. Dr. Fahmy Malak, Arkansas' former state medical examiner, ruling the deaths accidental, said the teens fell asleep on the tracks after smoking marijuana. A 1988 Saline County grand jury determined the boys were murdered and their bodies afterwards laid on the tracks, but no other conclusions were reached and no indictments were returned. The FBI is still investigating the deaths.
A number of Malak's determinations had been challenged and overturned during his career. He certainly wasn't always a conscientious medical examiner, and his Ives and Henry rulings were only two of many such botchings.
Getting back to the real meat of who killed the boys, nothing ties Ives and Henry to Clinton. Though various of these lists will claim the boys accidentally stumbled onto a "protected" drug drop and were killed for it, there's no reason to believe even that. In a 25 May 1990 hearing before U.S. Magistrate Henry Jones Jr., Katherine Brightop said her ex-boyfriend Paul William Criswell told her he and three other men were involved in the teenagers' deaths. Brightop said Criswell told her the boys tried to steal cocaine from Callaway's home and they were caught and beaten to death before their bodies were placed on the tracks.
Ripping off a drug dealer will get you killed, whether you know a governor or not.
24. Keith Koney - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Died in a motorcycle accident with reports of a high-speed car chased involved.
19-year-old Keith Coney died on 17 May 1988 when the motorcycle he was driving struck the back of a tractor-trailer. He was riding a motorcycle he'd stolen the day before. There were no reports of a high-speed car chase.
25. Keith McKaskle - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Stabbed to death.
In August 1989, Ronald Shane Smith was sentenced to ten years for the 10 November 1988 murder of Keith McKaskle. McKaskle had earlier expressed fears for his life, linking them to his knowing something about "the railroad track thing". Smith may have been paid to kill McKaskle, as a prison inmate said he had been approached and offered $4,000 to kill McKaskle himself.
26. Gregory Collins - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Gunshot wound to the head.
Greg Collins (25) of Bryant, Arkansas, was found shot in woods near Rosston on 2 December 1989. If he truly knew something about drug-related murders, that's reason enough for him to have been killed.
27. Jeff Rhodes - had information on the Ives and Henry and McKaskle deaths. Tortured, mutilated, shot, body burned in a dumpster.
In July 1989 Frank Pilcher was arrested for the April 1989 murder of Jeffrey Rhodes. Rhodes had earlier told his father he feared for his life because he'd witnessed a narcotics transaction.
Rhodes was last seen alive on April 3. His body was discovered in a dumpster on April 19. He'd been shot twice in the head and his body was badly burned. The body was likely burned in an effort to destroy forensic evidence that would led investigators to the murderer.
28. James Milam - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The coroner ruled death due to natural causes.
This is my favorite entry. Remember that Arkansas medical examiner, the one I said wasn't always the most conscientious investigator on God's green earth? Yep, we're about to see him again. Fahmy Malak listed James Milam's cause of death as a perforated ulcer, adding that Milam's small dog afterwards ate the dead man's head, accounting for Milam's headless condition.
Milam's daughter-in-law insists Milam was murdered. She claims Malak showed her photographs of the headless corpse, and the neck was cut clean. The Milam family has not attempted to legally challenge the ruling because of the expense, so we'll never know which way the cat jumps, ulcer or murder.
Whatever killed him, Milam died three months before the Ives and Henry murders. What are we supposed to believe here, that Clinton conspirators knocked off someone who "had information on the Ives and Henry deaths" three months Ives and Henry actually died? Wow, talk about a preemptive strike!
29. Jordan Kettleson - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Found shot in the front seat of his pick up truck.
21-year-old Jordan Ketelsen died on 25 June 1990.
30. Dr. Stanley Heard - Chair, National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee. He personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather, and brother. His personal small plane developed problems so he rented another. Fire broke out in flight and he crashed.
Ooh, Clinton's mother's chiropractor died in plane crash. How mysterious. What's next, Clinton's brother's dentist's dog?
Stanley Heard and Stephen Dickson died on 10 September 1993, when their Piper Turbo Lance II caught fire shortly after takeoff from Dulles airport and crashed. They'd attended a briefing that morning on the Clinton administration's health care plan. Dickson's plane had developed mechanical problems on the way to Washington the week before, so Dickson and Heard rented the Cherokee in St. Louis to make the trip. They rented a badly maintained plane, and it cost them their lives.
Here is what the NTSB had to say about this crash.
I've found nothing on the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory that Heard supposedly chaired.
31. Steve Dickson - attorney for Heard. Died in same plane crash.
Dickson attended the same briefing Heard did. I do not know if he was there as Heard's lawyer or for independent reasons.
32. John Hillier - video journalist and investigator. He helped to produce the documentaries "Circle of Power," and "The Clinton Chronicles." He mysteriously died in a dentist's chair for no apparent reason.
Again, I can find no record of this man's death or of his work. There have been a few dental chair deaths, but I find nothing on his.
33. Maj. Gen. William Robertson
34. Col. William Densberger
35. Col. Robert Kelly
36. Spec. Gary Rhodes
37. Steve Willis
38. Robert Williams
39. Conway LeBleu
40. Todd McKeehan
41. Sgt. Brian Haney
42. Sgt. Tim Sabel
43. Maj.William Barkley
44. Capt. Scott Reynolds
* all former Clinton bodyguards who are dead.
Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeehan and Conway LeBleu were Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents killed during the Waco confrontation on 28 February 1993.
Brian Haney, Timothy Sabel, William Barkley and Scott Reynolds died in a helicopter crash on 19 May 1993. These four were members of Marine Helicopter Squadron One, the unit responsible for transporting the President. They died when the Blackhawk helicopter they had taken out for a maintenance-evaluation flight crashed. There was no evidence of sabotage. Clinton had set foot in the aircraft on only one occasion, two months earlier, when he traveled from the White House to the USS Theodore Roosevelt.
Jarrett Robertson, William Densberger, Robert Kelly and Gary Rhodes died in a helicopter crash in Weisbaden, Germany on 23 February 1993.
45. Gary Johnson - former attorney for Larry Nichols, severely beaten and left for dead.
Again, I can find nothing on this incident or even this man's life.
46. Dennis Patrick - had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lasater & Co. without his knowledge. There have been several attempts on his life, all unsuccessful.
It's hard to know what to say about this one. Though I find credible reference to Patrick's life having been in danger a few times, I'm unable to trace back to news reports on the original incidents. Without seeing them, I'm not confident in stating an opinion on whether or not those attempts took place.
Patrick was a client of Lasater, albeit a reluctant one. He was asked to open an account there, he refused, one was opened for him anyway, and he was handed "profits" from one transaction for his part in allowing whatever was going on to take place. Again, someone who got involved with drug dealers ended up in trouble. In this case, an otherwise upstanding man took money he knew to be dirty to keep quiet about what his account was being used for. If he's now being chased by drug dealers who don't want the details of the transactions to come to light, is that all that surprising?
47. L.J. Davis - reporter. While investigating the Clinton scandals he was attacked in his hotel room and his notes were taken. He survived.
Davis said he had awakened in his hotel room with a big bump on his head. He soon admitted having drunk at least four martinis that night. No pages were missing from his notebook, and he had no idea how he ended up on the floor. "I certainly wasn't about to conclude that somebody cracked me on the head," Davis said at the time.
48. Larry Nichols - former marketing director of ADFA. Responsible for bringing forth more evidence and witnesses on Clinton corruption than any other source. Very public about his claims against Clinton. He has suffered six beatings, arrest on trumped up charges, and a near arrest.
In 1988 Larry Nichols, then a marketing director for the Arkansas Development Finance Authority, was fired from his job for making hundreds of calls to the Nicaraguan contras from his office. In 1990 he filed a lawsuit against Clinton claiming the then-Governor of Arkansas and others made him the scapegoat in a misappropriation-of-funds charge that cost him his job. In that suit he also tossed in claims of extramarital affairs, naming five women Clinton was supposed to have chased across the sheets. Nichols withdrew his lawsuit in 1992 and issued a round of apologies to everyone involved. He admitted what he'd said had been an attempt to destroy the Governor by innuendo.
Nichols has since changed his tune yet again, and has returned to making allegations against Clinton, always being careful to stop just short of asserting Clinton is involved in various murders and other crimes Nichols points to as "suspicious."
Since his dismissal from the AFDA, Nichols has made a career of peddling anti-Clinton books and tapes to the lunatic fringe. Take anything claimed about or by this man with a huge grain of salt.
Now, ask yourself: how many people with whom you were acquainted have died mysteriously or violently in the past 10 years.
The bottom line on this piece of e-lore? It's a badly worked laundry list dressed up to appear significant. The promised damning connections to the Chief Executive are missing, with innuendo misinformation offered up in their place. Nothing ties Clinton to any of these deaths, something this list (and others of its ilk) conveniently glosses over. What evidence is offered that would compel a rational person to believe there was Clinton involvement in any of these deaths?
Clinton was acquainted with some people who died -- that's about all one can make of this list. Indeed, that's far more than can be made of a number of the entries, specifically, that of Ives and Henry and all those supposedly tied to theirs.
Though it's clear from digging through numerous newspaper articles there is a thriving and dangerous drug culture in Little Rock, how or why this should be connected to Bill Clinton is left unanswered. Regrettably, Little Rock is akin to numerous other large cities: it has its share of drug dealers, murders, and violence. It also has one very famous citizen. And that's about as much of a connection as anyone can make.
"Oh, but I've never known anyone who committed suicide or died 'mysteriously,'" you think. "A list with this many entries must be suspicious." Well, let's set the proper framework. Among your circle of "acquaintences," we will include:
Anyone whom you have ever considered a friend, any you have ever dated, and anyone with whom you have attended any type of social or recreational event.
Anyone who ever attended the same school you did, whether you knew or had any contact with that person or not.
Anyone who ever worked for the same employer you did, whether you knew or had any contact with that person or not (and even if you worked in completely different geographical locations).
Anyone with whom you or any of your family members has ever conducted business (e.g., plumbers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, building contractors, car salesmen).
With a circle that large, would we find at least a few accidental deaths, homicides, and suicides among your "body count" list? Probably. See how easy it was to create a similar list for George Bush, for example.
A number of suicides are enumerated in this list. Suicide is far from an unusual mode of demise. It claims 32,000 lives in the U.S. every year, and it's the 9th leading cause of death. It is indeed a rare person who does not know someone who died by his own hand.
Deaths by airplane crash account for a number of entries on the list. Again, this is not all that surprising. Every year many small planes crash in the United States, and some of those crashes result in fatalities. As mentioned above, the National Transportation Safety Board investigates every one of them, to determine both the cause of the accident as well as to gather data that will help prevent future tragedies. The agency does a thorough job of looking into the circumstances surrounding each downed plane. To describe any of the plane crash deaths on this list as "suspicious" is to suggest the NTSB was part of a coverup.
There have been a couple of unsolved murders (Jerry Parks, Kevin Ives, and Don Henry), but there have also been deaths by natural causes that have been tossed into the mix willy-nilly simply to boost the body count. (Like I said earlier, how can anyone claim a death by pneumonia was a suicide?) All the best lies make sure to mix a bit of truth in with them, and the few genuinely unsolved murders work to cloak the many less credible claims in an aura of plausibility. Don't be overly bemused by them -- study each entry on its own merits.
One final question to ask yourself before falling for any Clinton Body Count list: If the Chief Executive was having people bumped off left, right, and centre, why aren't Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp on this list? At the time of Mary Mahoney's death -- a death this list hints was ordered by Clinton -- neither Tripp nor Lewinsky were the high-profile household names they now are; they were complete unknowns. It would be another six months before information about them would explode into the news. If the President were in the habit of having those dangerous to his presidency put in the ground, why didn't he order these deaths?
Barbara "let's get back to Clinton's bawdy count, okay?" Mikkelson
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todd (Flat12)
New member
Username: Flat12
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 3:43 pm: | |
No more telemarketers
Of course, nobody has a job to buy anything with anyway |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2432
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 3:40 pm: | |
Dave:
What about the other 38%? What does Clinton's record have to do with Bush's own record? Get to the point: has he been a disaster or not? I vote for not, and even you have said that if it turns out no wmds (and you will take a year to see) and if there is evidence of fraud, you will have some misgivings on this presidency.
By the way, I'm not sure which items Randall mentioned you think aren't true: could you list them?
Regards,
Art |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2692
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
Thanks, Tfomas. I remember seeing that from several years ago. Nice to se it not forgotten among all of the acres of leftist blather. |
DL (Darth550)
Junior Member
Username: Darth550
Post Number: 132
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 9:30 am: | |
"The similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy"
.... I would not actually go that far down memory lane!
DL |
KCCK (Kenneth)
Member
Username: Kenneth
Post Number: 618
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 8:03 am: | |
Stunning. |
James (Admiral_thrawn)
New member
Username: Admiral_thrawn
Post Number: 43
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 5:14 am: | |
Well well well, that is one disturbing revelation, Thomas... :-\ |
Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 137
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 4:48 am: | |
The Clinton Dead Body Count
Much of the evidence will never be known because many people who were witnesses or who possessed evidence of some kind suffered mysterious deaths prior to being able to come forward. The list compiled here is not complete and is not detailed. It is presented to show how extensive it is and to illustrate that all these deaths could not be just a coincidence.
Mary Mohane � former White House intern gunned down in a coffee shop. Nothing was taken. It was suspected that she was about to testify about sexual harassment at the White House.
Vincent Foster � former White House Counsel, found dead of a gunshot wound to the head and ruled a suicide. He had significant knowledge of the Clintons� financial affairs and was a business partner (and alleged sex partner) with Hillary. If the Clintons are guilty of the crimes they are accused of by Larry, Vincent Foster would have detailed knowledge of those crimes.
C. Victor Raiser, II � former National Finance Co-Chairman of Clinton for President, and Montgomery Raiser, his son. Both died in a suspicious private plane crash in Alaska. No cause determined. Raiser was considered to be a major player on the Clinton team.
Paul Tully � DNC Political Director, was found dead in a Little Rock hotel room. No cause was ever determined and no autopsy was allowed. Tully was a key member of the damage control squad and came up with some of the Clinton strategies.
Ed Willey � Clinton fund raiser. Found in the woods in Virginia with a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide.
Hershell Friday � Clinton fund-raiser. His plane exploded.
Jerry Parks � former security team member for Governor Clinton. Prior to his death he had compiled and extensive file on Clinton�s activities. His family had reported being followed and his home broken into just before being gunned down at a deserted intersection.
John Wilson � former Washington D.C. council member. Had ties to Whitewater. Died of a very suspicious hanging suicide.
Kathy Ferguson � former wife of Arkansas State Trooper Danny Ferguson, the co-defendant with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Found dead in her living room of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Interestingly, her packed suitcases seemed to indicate she was about to go somewhere.
Bill Shelton � Arkansas state trooper and fianc� of Kathy Ferguson. Allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself at her grave.
Gandy Baugh � attorney for Dan Lasater in a financial misconduct case. Supposedly jumped out the window of a tall building to commit suicide.
Dr. Donald Rogers � dentist. Killed in a suspicious plane crash on his way to an interview with reporter Ambrose Evans-Pritchard to reveal information about Clinton.
Stanley Huggins � lawyer investigating Madison Guaranty. Suicide. His extensive report has never been released.
Florence Martin � Accountant for the CIA and had information on the Barry Seal case. Three gunshot wounds to the head.
Suzane Coleman � reportedly had an affair with Clinton. Was seven months pregnant at the time she was found dead of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled suicide.
Paula Grober � Clinton�s interpreter for the deaf. Traveled with Clinton from 1978 until her death in 1992 in a one-car accident. There were no witnesses.
Paul Wilcher � attorney investigating corruption. He had investigated federal elections, drug and gun smuggling through Mena, the Waco incident, and had just delivered a lengthy report to Janet Reno. He died in his home of unknown causes.
Jon Parnell Walker � RTC investigator who mysteriously fell to his death from an apartment balcony.
Ron Brown � former DNS Chairman, Commerce Secretary. Reported to have died in a plane crash, but new evidence reveals he may have been shot in the head. He was being investigated by a special investigator and was about to be indicted with 54 others. He spoke publicly of his willingness to �make a deal� with the prosecutors to save himself a few days before the fatal trip. He was not supposed to be on the flight but was asked to go at the last minute.
Barbara Wise � Commerce Department secretary. Worked with Ron Brown and John Huang and had extensive knowledge of their activities. Found dead in her locked office the day after Thanksgiving. It was ruled a suicide. Interestingly, she was found partially clothed, bruised, and in a pool of blood.
Charles Meissner � Assistant Secretary of Commerce. John Huang was given a special security clearance by Meissner. Shortly thereafter, he died in the crash of a small plane.
Kevin Ives and Don Henry � seventeen-year-old boys who apparently saw something related to drugs in Mena by accident late at night. Officially ruled an accidental death on the train tracks, but evidence shows they died before being placed on the tracks � one of a crushed skull and the other of a knife wound in the back.
Keith Koney � had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Died in a motorcycle accident with reports of a high-speed car chased involved.
Keith McKaskle � had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Stabbed to death.
Gregory Collins � had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Gunshot wound to the head.
Jeff Rhodes � had information on the Ives and Henry and McKaskle deaths. Tortured, mutilated, shot, body burned in a dumpster.
James Milam � had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The coroner ruled death due to natural causes.
Jordan Kettleson � had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Found shot in the front seat of his pick up truck.
Dr. Stanley Heard � Chair, National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee. He personally treated Clinton�s mother, stepfather, and brother. His personal small plane developed problems so he rented another. Fire broke out in flight and he crashed.
Steve Dickson � attorney for Heard. Died in same plane crash.
John Hillier � video journalist and investigator. He helped to produce the documentaries �Circle of Power,� and �The Clinton Chronicles.� He mysteriously died in a dentist�s chair for no apparent reason.
Maj. Gen. William Robertson, Col. William Densberger, Col. Robert Kelly, Spec. Gary Rhodes, Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Sgt. Brian Haney, Sgt. Tim Sabel, Maj. William Barkley, Capt. Scott Reynolds � all former Clinton bodyguards who are dead.
Gary Johnson � former attorney for Larry Nichols, severely beaten and left for dead.
Dennis Patrick � had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lasater & Co. without his knowledge. There have been several attempts on his life, all unsuccessful.
L.J. Davis � reporter. While investigating the Clinton scandals he was attacked in his hotel room and his notes were taken. He survived.
Larry Nichols � former marketing director of ADFA. Responsible for bringing forth more evidence and witnesses on Clinton corruption than any other source. Very public about his claims against Clinton. He has suffered six beatings, arrest on trumped up charges, and a near arrest.
- Credit Larry Nichols -
Don't even get me started on how Clinton and Gore sold out the U.S. to China |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2689
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 9:10 pm: | |
62% bullschit...about par for your political posts, Randall.
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Randall (Randall)
Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 631
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 7:40 pm: | |
George W. Bush Resume
Past work experience:
Ran for congress and lost.
Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.
Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.
Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.
With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.
Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.
Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.
Accomplishments as president:
Attacked and took over two countries.
Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.
Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.
Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.
Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.
First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.
First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.
After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.
Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.
In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.
Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.
Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.
Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.
Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history.
Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)
Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.
Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleeza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).
First president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.
First president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation.
Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.
Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.
First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.
First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.
Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
Withdrew from the World Court of Law.
Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).
All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.
First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.
First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
First US president to establish a secret shadow government.
Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.
First US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.
First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.
Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.
Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.
Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.
In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.
Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.
In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.
Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
Records and References:
At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).
AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.
Refused to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review.
For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (They can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.) |
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