| Author | Message | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 562 Registered: 10-2001 |
Andy, I think we mostly agree. On paper, there is very little difference in the liberties afford citizens of Ireland and the UK. Therefore, on paper, it's not really all that important what you call each piece of land and who collects the taxes. However, there is much entrenched discrimination against Irish (and thus Catholic) residents of the north by the decendants of the colonists (who happen to be protestants: in modern times religion isn't really the biggest issue, it is just a convenient way to lable the parties involved). This discrimination is a direct result of who took the land, who was allowed to develop industry, who had access to education, and so on. If we could do more to remedy that situation, the fighting would be much easier to stop. ---- As for the history question, this seems to be the generally accepted version: The earliest inhabitants in Ireland lived approximately 4000 years ago, and built massive tombs to their kings, some of which still exist today. The Celtic peoples arrived from France and Scotland around 400 B.C., bringing with them the Gaelic language. They organised the people into four consolidated kingdoms (Leinster, Connaught, Ulster, and Munster). St. Patrick arrived in 432 A.D. and preached openly to the people about the Gospel, leading men to Christ alone for salvation, and never claiming to baptize a single baby. The Vikings arrived around 795 A.D., and modernised the country, building Ireland's first towns including it capital, Dublin in 988 A.D. In 1152, Pope Adrian (the only English Pope ever) granted Ireland as a gift to King Henry II of England. The king promptly sent in thousands of Scottish and English colonists in order to colonise it and create a copy of England there. Ireland's people rejected English rule. The Reformation in Europe saw England free itself from Catholicism, but Ireland's people remained solidly Roman Catholic, and resented Protestantism to the point of killing some 30,000 Protestants in Ulster in 1641. Cromwell came to Ireland and killed all in his path and kicked all catholic land owners off their land or out to Connacht. The worst disaster occurred in 1845-1847, when the potato crop (Ireland's primary crop) failed due to disease, and famine set in for the next two decades. (meanwhile, other food grew fine but it was all taken by the English landlords back to England). Hundreds of thousands died or fled. In 1921, Ireland gained independence with only Northern Ireland (Ulster) wishing to remain under the United Kingdom. Since then, the South (Catholic) has been fighting in the North (controlled by the Protestants) over the fact that it should not be part of the United Kingdom, but part of the Republic as a unified country." or something like that... | ||
| Andy mathieson (Andy)
New member Username: Andy Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2003 |
I run a business based in Belfast. I am English with a lot of Irish friends from north and south of the border. I can safely say that I don't know anyone who supports what either of the terrorist groups have been and are still doing. Try telling the victims of the Omagh bombing that it was all in a good cause. The violence in Ulster has nothing to do with "freedom" anymore. It's largely about organised crime and sectarian hatred (tribalism). It's Christian killing Christian with the religious significance long lost. As for what the English have done to the Irish for a thousand years I think you need to re-read your history. Ireland hasn't existed as a country for a thousand years and neither has England. As you no doubt know and I learned at school, Ireland was populated by the Picts who came from Scotland and the Scots who came from Ireland went to Scotland. They must have passed in the fog, I guess, and missed each other. various others including the Danes spent a couple of hundred years crossing the sea and pillaging and plundering in Ireland. Not to much raping because they were tired after all the pillaging. We, the English, who are mixed bunch from Germany, Scandinavia, France and who knows where, were only really at it for a about three hundred and fifty years. Yes the Englsih are a nasty lot but I blame the French who invaded and murdered us in 1066. There ...... I got back to the ones we were all bitching about a while ago. How many years before the offences are wiped from your (ancestral) record? Should I plan to pass on my speeding offences to my great grandchildren. Now to be fair I think we should all agree to start a campaign to give America back to the native Americans, after all what was done to them was far worse than the Irish situation. Maybe they should just have New England, parts of Arizona and Seattle. We cold start collecting in those Irish bars in Boston. Of course it wouldn't be to fund terrorism, it would just be for the wives and families and not our fault if the unscrupluous ones hive off the funds for arms. I guess the French blood in the English and the German blood in America plus the Spanish of course should all take the blame. Oh and the Dutch and Portuguese had empires too. The Chinese and the Japanese weren't very nice, nor the Italians. We'll stay off slavery because that's just to tough to deal with. Then we must not forget that the CIA suppoorted all those terrorists/freedom fighters for all those years so the Yanks are pretty nasty too. Maybe the Inuits are OK........... but not if you support seals. Really you should forget all the history and work like the true story of Androcles and the Lion. That's the one where Androcles is in the jungle and is frightened by a lion who is in pain. He removes the thorn from the Lions paw who runs off. Years later when Androcles has become a Christian in Rome he is thrown in the arena with a lion and guess what .... it's the same lion who remembers and spares his life. That's just a fable of course. In the true life version, when they get in the arena, the lion bites a chunk out his leg and Androcles shouts "don't you remember me and how I helped you all those years ago?". The lion says "sure, but what have you done for me lately?". I guess that's how we all think about each other. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 553 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dave, I'm not sure we agree on the Irish issue. I'm not so harsh on the IRA. Sure, they have done things I wouldn't support but on the whole throughout the 20th century I think you'll find they have mostly targeted soldiers. I certainly support their goals and I would not dismiss them as terrorist thugs. They did not strike out of nowhere like the Al Qaida did on 9/11. The IRA is acting under a long standing (1000 years!) war against the English colonists. The English knew what they were getting in to centuries ago and apparently they still feel it is worth the price. Statistics on the "troubles" are kept quite well. In fact, you can download the names and details on every person killed. The IRA have killed 1,757 people since 1969. 1108 were British Forces (and their contractees). They have killed 33 loyalists soldiers. 142 civilians were "accidently" killed in bombings on commercial property (i.e. when warning calls were placed). 130 died in premature explosions (i.e. ira members killed when making/transporting bombs). 14 british politicians, and 34 british civilians (32 of these were in one two year period in the mid-70s). 133 protestant civilians were deliberately killed. 73 deaths were unable to be classified. By contrast, it is the loyalists and british forces who target civilians. The loyalists have killed 911 people: 28 ira members, 45 of their own loyalist members in feuds, 32 irish politicians, 43 irish civilians, 12 british forces, 24 in premature explosions, 56 unclassified deaths and...670 northern ireland irish civilians. The british forces have killed 357: 194 were civilians, only one of which was armed, 15 in robberies, 16 in stolen cars, and 3 were elected politicians. They have killed 121 IRA members and 20 other republican members, and 13 loyalist soldiers and 4 of their own british soldiers by accident and 5 other british soldiers during covert activities. So it's not just the fact that I feel their goals are just that I don't feel the IRA is a terrorist organization. It is because their methods are largely military, against military targets. -Rich | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 692 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dave you mean Mrs. Arafat's remark about Israeli Soldiers using poison gas in front of Mrs. Clinton ? ~ Mrs Clinton had nothing to say in response while she visited the Gaza Strip. ~ She usually has "plenty" to say. All seems normal now. Apparently they discovered that no poison gas was used. Mrs. Arafat seems content to shop and have her hair done in Paris. Nice try though - Mrs. Arafat. Who would believe that B.S. ? and Mrs. Clinton ? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2759 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rich & James Lee, we agree partly on the Irish-English issue. However, remember that it was American liberals (led by the Kennedy a$$clowns) who pumped millions of dollars into the terroristic IRA and its thug offshoots. The same liberals who have supported the Palestinian terrorists against Israel for years (anyone remember Hillary on this very topic several years ago?. The same liberals who are agog that we would have the brazen temerity to go against the wishes of that world arbiter of right & wrong, France (snicker..chortle), and depose a brutally Stalinist dictator who had been murdering & torturing his people for 30 years in Iraq. See a pattern here? The rest of us do. And this is why these fools keep losing on election day.....which makes their rhetoric & hypocrisy all the more vituperative. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 548 Registered: 10-2001 |
The English can be appalled all they want. What they have done to the Irish over the last thousand years is much worse than anything Saddam has done to Iraqis. I don't support killing for any reason other than direct self-defense in the heat of the moment: but if I had grown up Irish in the six-counties still under British control, I might hold a more "by any means necessary" point of view. | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
Junior Member Username: Aventino Post Number: 68 Registered: 6-2003 |
"These things are complicated. Many British would say that Sinn Fein is a terrorist organization. Few Irish would agree." And many English are appalled at the amount of money the Americans have given to support them. Anyone here lived in London during the IRA bombing campaign a few years back? September 11th was one terrible day in the US, try weeks and weeks of it. Try avoiding getting within 50 feet of every rubbish bin on your way to work, try watching every suspiciously parked car. Rich I think you'll find having an alternate viewpoint here is like trying to get Barry White to sing at a Clan meeting. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 712 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dave- "Mark, I agree regarding the PP movies... under the impression that they were made & produced by British filmmakers. Am I wrong?" No, but that makes it even more funnier. The French made me laugh so hard. Thank the Brits for being so good at making fun of the French. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2747 Registered: 1-2002 |
"terroristic topics" should read "terroristic TACTICS"..... | ||
| DL (Darth550)
Junior Member Username: Darth550 Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2003 |
Lou, LOL, thanks. That one is going into the everyday repertoire! DL | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member Username: Wax Post Number: 155 Registered: 7-2003 |
France has long maintained a distinction between the "political" wing of Hamas and it's "military" wing, flatly refusing to accept the fact that these 2 wings, like those of a bird, are useless if only one wing is flapping. However, were there no "political" wing, Hamas wouldn't be able to fly, even in France. As for Islamic Jihad - does Jihad translate into something good when French-fried? A Must-see - Palestinian Media - Teaching children to "Ask for death" - whether you watch the long video, see some scenes or read the text, you'll see how f*cked up Palestinian "Liberators" are when it comes to brainwashing: http://www.pmw.org.il/new/ASK%20FOR%20DEATH.htm | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2742 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hamas' entire "military" mission is to kill Israeli CIVILIANS. That's it!! To use the word "military" to describe this is to demean honorable military folks worldwide. As for the Contras, well, they were trying to overthroww a Communist govt. in Nicaragua...but they employed terroristic topics. I would say that you & Reagan were both right. Lou, LOL!! | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dave, I'm not making any excuses for France. Though it is my personal belief that the French have given the world many positive things. My point is that there is more than one way to look at anything. To you, Hamas is only a terrorist organization. To me it is clear they are both a humanitarian cultural organization and a military organization killing people. To Reagan and Bush Sr., the contras were "freedom fighters", to me they were terrorists. In the end I guess I just can't see any point in placing different labels on different groups of people who are doing the same damn thing: killing each other, including innocent civilians. All armies do it, all resistance movements do it, all agressors do it. You can change the name for each group but it doesn't mean one behaves any more justly than the other. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 281 Registered: 4-2001 |
No country is completely worthless. They can always be used as a bad example. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 688 Registered: 3-2002 |
French are full of episodes throughout history where they dropped the ball. Was it just the period of 2003 over Iraq ? Of course not. Remember 1986 and Libya ? We had to fly our F-111's around their shitty little country from the UK to bomb Col Gaddafi. They are always selling their mothers to the highest bidder. Some things never change. We all have quite a few other examples to post. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2738 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rich..........how on Earth can Hamas NOT be a terrorist organization? France just continues to make itself more & more of a laughingstock every time they open their pie holes on this sort of topic. It would be like saying that the Nazis weren't ruthless occupiers of France in WW2---it just isn't so! And I really don't get your attempt to put lipstick on this pig by making feeble excuses for the idiots in Paris. Mark, I agree regarding the PP movies...they prove that you can make hilarious witty comedy without profanity or blood. However, I was unde rthe impression that they were made & produced by British filmmakers. Am I wrong? | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 546 Registered: 10-2001 |
These things are complicated. Many British would say that Sinn Fein is a terrorist organization. Few Irish would agree. -Rich | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 710 Registered: 10-2001 |
I still have to say, I have never laughed as hard in my life... as I did from watching the Pink Panther Movies. At least the French are worth something. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 709 Registered: 10-2001 |
Everytime you do something really stupid, you get your name in the world press. France has found its one and only way to get mentioned and feel important anymore. They learned their world stratigy from watching the O.J. Simpson trials. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2733 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ralph, you're right. Thomas, great graphic!!! | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member Username: Wax Post Number: 154 Registered: 7-2003 |
 | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 687 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dave: The word "jealousy" comes to mind. Losing is contageous. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2731 Registered: 1-2002 |
The subject of this thread answers itself. The French government is run by cocknozzles. Every day, when they get up, they look in the Wash. Post to see what the US position is on whatever, and then they start self-righteously proclaiming the exact opposite. 'Nuff said. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 686 Registered: 3-2002 |
Frogs ~ Pigs yesterday Pigs today Pigs tommorrow Pigs forever Viva La France !!!! | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1751 Registered: 7-2002 |
seriously, why do they do this? are they hoping they won't become targets if they remain neutral? I mean Hamas and Islamic Jihad admit when they attack. Are the French saying these aren't terrorist acts because they are in retaliation for some previous act? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2729 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jacques "Iraq" Chirac (convenient that it all rhymes, eh?) wins the World's Biggest A$$wipe/A$$clown award. I think France looks at whatever the US' position is on ANYTHING, and starts babbling the opposite.     | ||
| Mark Moon (Enzomoon)
Junior Member Username: Enzomoon Post Number: 242 Registered: 4-2002 |
F*#k the French!!! They never were our "friends" and never will be. | ||
| J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member Username: Jh355 Post Number: 106 Registered: 6-2003 |
Why we should not allow the French to make any world decisions!!! http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=257044&lang=e&dir=news |