| Author |
Message |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 921
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:34 pm: | |
J Haller, thats great to hear, I hope we did find a common ground, and if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 111
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 8:52 am: | |
Omar,
�So does that mean we can be friends? (In theroy, as we probably will never meet aside from a Ferrari convention and unless I prove disrespectful, which if I did I would love to know how)�
Your spirited conversation did not offend me. And of course, we can be friends, are we not citizens of the world? Friends who exchange ideas and trade together usually don�t kill one another, but instead try to find common ground (A word of advice for the world today).
JH
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Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 917
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:57 pm: | |
J Haller, here you go:
1.) I think that is out of scope with this argument, we are discussing the stated surahs.
2.) Again these passages are meant to target non-believers. Last time I discussed this in a religious meeting, Christians and Jews were considered believers, as they believe in the One God. Other radical schools don�t think that way (al-Queda)
3.) I am right now I think. I wish more did, all the ones I know personally do, but the threat of reprisal prevents some and others are just ignorant, do you know of people in your faith who are "weak" and just go along with someone who claims to be doing right? Well that happens here. And of course, many are indoctrinated to hate Israel and the US, which is something I personally try to reverse in discussions with such people.
4.) How many people for that matter of any faith? Last I checked it was not that good. I would encourage more people to do so, a good and devote friend of mine is in the Army. Also, there's more Muslims in the army as a percentage of the army than in the general population (simply because there's more African Americans in the army as a percentage)
5.) Northern Ireland, if you want names, I can google it.
"6.") The Koran should not be taken literally as its a style of writing is poetry. Poetry is ment to be discussed and reasoned as we are doing. I would sure you don�t take poetry as literal word.
quote:First of all, I have nothing personally against any specific religion, including your faith. And respect is due all people until they prove not to be respectable.
So does that mean we can be friends? (In theroy, as we probably will never meet aside from a Ferrari convention and unless I prove disrespectful, which if I did I would love to know how)
Also for the record, I have nothing against Christianity or Judaism. In fact I studied in a Catholic school for 6 years and went to Church often during that time. |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 110
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:35 pm: | |
Omar,
First of all, I have nothing personally against any specific religion, including your faith. And respect is due all people until they prove not to be respectable.
1.) No one has yet respond to the challenge to find Bible scripture that specifically stated to kill burn or slay the competition. No Old Testament verses please, I�m talking about how Christians are to live today, not an historical account.
2.) Please help me understand how your faith ignores or reasons through these scriptures in the Koran? (It is forbidden in mine...but try telling that to some of the maniacs/fanatics. Now despite them not following such a basic rule, you still label them as Good Muslims? But for some reason I take it you think its fine to do to the innocents on the "other side"?)
3.) Can you point out any good Muslims who specifically have stood up and renounced the bad Muslims and their actions in the world today? With the labels just trying to separate what you have stated as two different beliefs in the Muslim faith.
4.) �Fair question. If you can look in your heart feel shame for the behaviors of your fellow muslims then you are an "us" in my book. If , on the other hand, you feel any understanding of the actions and beliefs taken against the U.S. by muslims you are most certainly a "you".�
Feeling shame is one thing doing something constructive about your belief is quite another. How many Muslims have you seen at the Army recruiter�s office lately?
5.) How many �Christians� (not a Christian nation going to war) can you name that kill in the name of God today? I�m looking for individual names.
Omar, if you take the Koran literally, then you are one of us because of your association with us. The Koran specifically prohibits this behavior, and �Allah does not guide these unjust people.� meaning you. Am I missing something?
JH
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Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 915
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:07 pm: | |
Jeff, thats great to hear as well. What my long replys in a nutshell were ment for was to say that yes, read it (the Surahs), it looks bad, but its not targeted against Christains and Jews (with the acception of the last, which I explained below), but really pagens and such. BUT as you can see, its really easy for someone who is nieve in there Islamic faith to be led astray by people like Osma. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 469
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:02 pm: | |
I am pleased that we could find middle ground. Thank you for defining your stance and that of the others using faith as a weapon |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 914
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:56 pm: | |
quote:Fair question. If you can look in your heart feel shame for the behaviors of your fellow muslims then you are an "us" in my book. If , on the other hand, you feel any understanding of the actions and beliefs taken against the U.S. by muslims you are most certainly a "you".
Thank you, with the correction that committers of such acts are not, nor ever should be considered real Muslims. They take, bastardize, and use my faith against my friends and countrymen. |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 913
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:54 pm: | |
quote:Omar.. you make several commets that do not take into consideration the Christian view vs the muslim view. You say "what does an Idolater mean? It doesn't mean what you re-stated again as your assumption. Also, (I�m a Muslim's view point) its not the teachings of Mohammad (pbuh) its the teachings of the One true God...which incidentally include, as I stated before, the Torah, the book of Psalms, etc. " Yet both your faith and ours says that each, God and mohammad, are the ONE true god. They are not the same person under a different name. This alone makes your point moot. If you are saying that they are the same but just different understandings then you are WRONG. The bible is the word of GOD and the Koran is the writing of a man seeking power
No. Mohammad(pbuh) is not God, or could ever be, sorry if I some how made that connection appear. What I was saying is that in a Muslim view, who would be the people reading the Koran for incite and guidance I would imagine, that "our communications" would include the other great books, and thus make that Surah not applicable to people who do study some, if not all the works. I know the Christian POW as well, but that is irreverent here as we are discussing an Islamic text that is read by Muslims. It would be like me trying to make judgmental calls on the latter books of the Bible, sure I have thoughts that differ from Catholics, which differ from Protestants, etc, but I have no reason to say them as, I would be commenting on someone else's text. On a point we can both agree on, its the same as if we tried to review and discuss the Raymana(sp?) from our monotheistic point of view.
quote:
You also added"2.) So we can�t be friends, ok I can live with that.
And why not? What did I do exactly? I don�t have anything personally against you, or your beliefs. If its just because of my religion, you really need to look inward." Who are you to pass such judgement? Why do any of us need to "look inward" just to suit the desires of an enemy? I am not utopian in my beliefs. Should the father of the female soldier that was raped and beaten "look inward when he meets a Muslim? I think not. He has the right to burn the first Mosque. The choice to forgive is personal as is the right to hate.
So since my uncle died at the hands of Hindus, I have a right to go and blow up a temple with incident Hindus in it that had nothing to do with his death?
quote:
And you add "Where exactly in your faith does it say its ok to go after women and children/innocents? (unless they are obviously trying to kill you that is) It is forbidden in mine.." What a load... let's call the families of the passengers on the planes or in the towers working and see if they were combatants. They were the most innocent of all. Did women and childern get killed in Iraq..? YEPPERS>. but they ahd plenty of warring to leave.. the one thing no one had on 911. Spare me your "peace, love and understanding" lines. We have heard and watched as muslims attacked and despised America for decades. As a final note I will ask..... Where were the Thousands of notes and letters from the "good" muslims saying how sorry they were for what happened?
The point I was trying to convey is not the one you responded to, it was that in fact those who attacked, though in their own minds were just and right, were NOT TRUE MUSLIMS.
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Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 468
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:54 pm: | |
Fair question. If you can look in your heart feel shame for the behaviors of your fellow muslims then you are an "us" in my book. If , on the other hand, you feel any understanding of the actions and beliefs taken against the U.S. by muslims you are most certainly a "you".
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Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 911
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:47 pm: | |
Jeff, am I a you or us in your mind? |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 467
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:43 pm: | |
Omar.. you make several commets that do not take into consideration the Christian view vs the muslim view. You say "what does an Idolater mean? It doesn't mean what you re-stated again as your assumption. Also, (I�m a Muslim's view point) its not the teachings of Mohammad (pbuh) its the teachings of the One true God...which incidentally include, as I stated before, the Torah, the book of Psalms, etc. " Yet both your faith and ours says that each, God and mohammad, are the ONE true god. They are not the same person under a different name. This alone makes your point moot. If you are saying that they are the same but just different understandings then you are WRONG. The bible is the word of GOD and the Koran is the writing of a man seeking power
You also added"2.) So we can�t be friends, ok I can live with that.
And why not? What did I do exactly? I don�t have anything personally against you, or your beliefs. If its just because of my religion, you really need to look inward." Who are you to pass such judgement? Why do any of us need to "look inward" just to suit the desires of an enemy? I am not utopian in my beliefs. Should the father of the female soldier that was raped and beaten "look inward when he meets a Muslim? I think not. He has the right to burn the first Mosque. The choice to forgive is personal as is the right to hate.
And you add "Where exactly in your faith does it say its ok to go after women and children/innocents? (unless they are obviously trying to kill you that is) It is forbidden in mine.." What a load... let's call the families of the passengers on the planes or in the towers working and see if they were combatants. They were the most innocent of all. Did women and childern get killed in Iraq..? YEPPERS>. but they ahd plenty of warring to leave.. the one thing no one had on 911. Spare me your "peace, love and understanding" lines. We have heard and watched as muslims attacked and despised America for decades. As a final note I will ask..... Where were the Thousands of notes and letters from the "good" muslims saying how sorry they were for what happened? |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 466
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
And David, Who gives a S**t what you think? |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 204
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:21 pm: | |
Jeffrey who gives a •••• where you were after the hits you racist a%^hole |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 910
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:02 pm: | |
quote:1.) When did the sacred months pass?
A while back, they are almost back actually.
quote:I believe we are already in these times. The idolaters are anyone who doesn�t acknowledge Mohammad as the highest deity, and follow only his book (the Koran) again am I wrong? This translates into the hatred and total destruction of Christians and Jews, by any means possible, read �lie in wait for them in every kind of ambush�. Does this mean they are going to jump us as we walk down the road and beat us up? I don�t think so. As long as we follow the teachings of Mohammad, we are all safe, whew what a relief. Moses didn�t come down the mountain and say �slay the idolaters�.
Again, what does an Idolater mean? It doesn't mean what you re-stated again as your assumption. Also, (I�m a Muslim's view point) its not the teachings of Mohammad (pbuh) its the teachings of the One true God...which incidentally include, as I stated before, the Torah, the book of Psalms, etc.
quote:2.) So we can�t be friends, ok I can live with that.
And why not? What did I do exactly? I don�t have anything personally against you, or your beliefs. If its just because of my religion, you really need to look inward. I have Indian friends despite actually loosing family members at the hands of Indians. I might not agree with their religion, or what they are doing in Kashmir, but that doesn�t mean I can never be friends with an Indian.
quote:Apparently there are plenty of good Muslims who believe just that, regardless of your explanation of the verse. Turn on the news, hundreds of Christians and Jews are being burned beyond belief every day, all over the world.
Interesting how you use the term "Good Muslims." I don�t think they are, and I am very, very conservative in my beliefs (and to some people's surprise in political leanings as well). In their own eyes they are right, and good. But then again, in the eyes of the KKK, they are also right and good.
quote:I�m not sure that Jeff is a racist. He holds the same belief most Americans do, if you kill us, we kill you, and we don�t care if it�s 1 for 1 or 1 for 3000.
I'm up for that, but who do you define as us and you? Am I a you, simply because I am a Muslim, or a us, since I am a born and raised American? Are the �you� all Muslims? If so, then there is something wrong with your beliefs. I would, as anyone I would hope, agree with killing a 1,000,000 or more of "them" for each "us." Provided that the them is defined as the terrorists/militants etc and not as a generic Muslim. Where exactly in your faith does it say its ok to go after women and children/innocents? (unless they are obviously trying to kill you that is) It is forbidden in mine...but try telling that to some of the maniacs/fanatics. Now despite them not following such a basic rule, you still label them as Good Muslims? But for some reason I take it you think its fine to do to the innocents on the "other side"?
Robin, the point of this topic is NOT to beat up on any religion, or show its odd-strange side. Lets try and remain on-topic.
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Robin Overcash (Robin)
Junior Member
Username: Robin
Post Number: 224
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 9:25 pm: | |
Ah man this is a thread I've been looking forward to. Unfortunately I don't have time to respond, and probably won't have time for a few weeks... ah well. In the meantime, check out http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ and look for all your favorite children's bible stories, like the time jesus tells paul how to beat his slaves, how women are seen in god's eyes, how god killed off millions of innocent people and tortured/abused many others, jesus' thoughts on treating your parents, etc. lots of neat stuff. If I find some time I'll dig up some of the juicier parts for you. Since Christianity seems to be a cafeteria plan, where you get to pick and choose which parts you believe, I expect a pretty good apologist routine... but whatever, just hope I can get 30 minutes to spare at work sometime this week.
-R |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 109
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 8:00 pm: | |
Thanks for a spirited discussion, no pun intended.
1.) When did the sacred months pass? I believe we are already in these times. The idolaters are anyone who doesn�t acknowledge Mohammad as the highest deity, and follow only his book (the Koran) again am I wrong? This translates into the hatred and total destruction of Christians and Jews, by any means possible, read �lie in wait for them in every kind of ambush�. Does this mean they are going to jump us as we walk down the road and beat us up? I don�t think so. As long as we follow the teachings of Mohammad, we are all safe, whew what a relief. Moses didn�t come down the mountain and say �slay the idolaters�.
2.) So we can�t be friends, ok I can live with that.
3.) Is it any wonder why the campaign of death choice for the homicide bombers is to strap C-4 to their body? Maybe �Those who disbelieve in our communications, we shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, we will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty and Wise.� (Surah 4:56)
Apparently there are plenty of good Muslims who believe just that, regardless of your explanation of the verse. Turn on the news, hundreds of Christians and Jews are being burned beyond belief every day, all over the world.
I�m not sure that Jeff is a racist. He holds the same belief most Americans do, if you kill us, we kill you, and we don�t care if it�s 1 for 1 or 1 for 3000.
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Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 461
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:39 pm: | |
And Omar... using the numbers from the war... it would seem that a American life is worth about 2500 Muslim lives if you count the dead. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 460
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
no Art... but I was at the trade centers after the hits. Where were you? Sitting on your arse in Liberal land? Perhaps overseeing some lawsuit for the downtrodden? Americans that were just going to work or taking a plane trip died because we did not destroy the enemy years before. And Omar... Yes.. If you were to speak against my counrty I would be okay with your suffering the results. Why would that shock you? Not all, and now it seems most are not, Americans are willing to tolerate the acts of any other country against us. |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 909
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:23 pm: | |
Arthur, thanks for the tip, I am just trying to set the record straight about the versus in question, seeing how I studied and had questions about them as well. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2446
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
Omar:
The reason I don't bother to reply to Jeffrey is that apparently he is prejudiced against everyone but himself.
Art |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 908
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:15 pm: | |
J Haller,
quote:�So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every kind of ambush �� (Surah 9:5)
In general, you can also look to the many versus that state that both Jews and Christians are also "people of the book". The Surahs you cite with the exception of the last, are to target idolers (see the bold), and unless I am really missing something, neither Jews or Christians are. Islam like Christianity and Judaism, doesn't like non-believers that are idolers...remember how Moses (pbuh) reacted when he came down and found the people praising an idol? Its idolatry that is spec. hated in Islam.
Specifly:
quote:�O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide these unjust people.� (Surah 5:51)
This line was made in reference to when a group of Jews betrayed the Prophet. It surely doesn�t condone the killing of either Jews or Christians. Just read it. It doesn't say (like the other 2) go out and kill.
quote:�Those who disbelieve in our communications [i.e. from the Koran], we shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, we will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty and Wise.� (Surah 4:56)
Its interesting how you imply with i.e. the reference point. In Islam, the communications are beleived to be numbering 4, with the last being the Koran. The other 3? The Torah, the book of Palsms and the Testiment according to Jesus (pbuh). Saddly the last was never found.
BTW, Jeff, wonderful it is to see racism alive and kicking today. I guess I should also die, along with other members of this site considering that we are Muslims and that�s it. A muslim life still is a human life.
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J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 108
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 5:59 pm: | |
Arthur,
I did not make generalized statements about "bibles" like you did; I gave very specific verses straight out of the Koran. If you believe other Bibles have examples of violence PLEASE STATE SPECIFIC VERSES no generalizations.
"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us worthy evidence of the fact."
George Eliot
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Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 457
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 5:48 pm: | |
ROFL.. Art.. Perhaps you should visit the middle east and wear signs of your heritage. Let's see how well you are recieved. It is totally irrelevant if a belief is correct or incorrect. All that matters is that a LARGE number of towel heads believe in the words of Allah and follow them. As for the spanish Jews killed... so what? Why would that even matter? What matters is exactly what was posted.. the Koran preaches death to Christians as a way into their Eden.
Thankfully both GOD and Mr. Eintein provided us with the tools to destroy our enemy. AS for Einsteins views on GOD and faith... What would you expect from his background? Thank god also for enough Americans willing to use these tools to protect our country no matter what the cost in muslim lives.
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arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2443
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 5:13 pm: | |
Every bible, Tora, Koran, etc. has examples of violence, and behavior that, when looked upon today appears to advocate violence against what they called non believes. Remember the inquisition? Burned more than a few Spanish jews.
If you want we could look at all religion as that of savages, and we'd probably be right. On one of the earlier threads, it was discussed that if Einstein was right, God as we know it, could not be. Einstein himself used to state that despite what other claimed, he never believed in a "personal god", ie, one that took an interest in humankind. Whether that made him an atheist or an agnositic is immaterial, what is important is that modern people who should know better, are rehashing believes that should have been discarded centuries ago. Lennin had it right: Religion is the opiate of the masses.
Art |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 107
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 4:42 pm: | |
For a Fundamentalist Muslim who literally follows the Koran and the example of Mohammad, the Koran teaches spreading Islam with the sword. They are commanded to kill the infidel because he does not believe the Prophet Mohammad and the Koran. It teaches Muslims to have zero tolerance for any other religion. It teaches �Holy War� or Jihad to spread Islam over other nations. Here are a few excerpts from the Koran:
�Those who disbelieve in our communications [i.e. from the Koran], we shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, we will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty and Wise.� (Surah 4:56)
�So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every kind of ambush �� (Surah 9:5)
�O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide these unjust people.� (Surah 5:51)
The more fundamental a Muslim becomes the more violent and intolerant they are.
Could this be the reason why Islamic Fundamentalism is almost synonymous with terrorism? Not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorist today are Muslim.
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