| Author |
Message |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 786
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 5:38 pm: | |
Art, If you think there is really any difference in the Republicans and Democrats other than basic rhetoric.... your delusional.
The Republican tax cut strategy aimed at helping the economy recover is a proven tactic. It was successfully pioneered by JFK in the early '60s. My problem with the Republican fiscal policy is its not relative to taxes, but spending.
The Republicans want to cut taxes, spend like there is no tomorrow and ignore the fact that someday the piper must be paid.
Democrats want to raise taxes, spend even more money but on social engineering rather than defense and also ignore the piper knocking at the door.
Libertarians do not propose dismanteling the entire Govt. and instituting anarchy. However, many Govt. agencies are pure waste. Many others could be dramatically reduced in size and scope AND do a better job accomplishing their goals. Huge departments in the Govt. should be privatized.
The simple reality of the Dems and Repubs is that neither has a track record of really effective leadership over the past 15 years. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2458
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 3:39 pm: | |
Terry:
Most people want to live their lives, have enough money to get along, make sure that they can survive after they retire. They want their streets safe, and they want to be able to enjoy their life. That Terry, means that most of them will expect the government to provide services which allow them to be able to live their lives.
There may be other Atlas shrugged types around, but their damn few and far between. The issue is how does society take care of those who aren't shooting for the stars. You've now seen the effects when those who are conservative get into control: they make decisions that help their friends, but effectively screw everyone else. Clinton had it right: if you want to live like a republican, vote democratic.
In the last 16 years, the parties have all but reversed themselves in their fiscal responsibility, regardless of what they say. The republicans are trying to tell everyone that you can get something for nothing, and the democrats are saying we need more taxes to pay for what we're getting. Interesting.
Art |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 554
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:27 pm: | |
Terry I think if you poll the country you will find their views are indeed WAY more left than yours. I think you'll find they are also WAY more libertarian on social issues than the republican and democratic parties (which are both authoritarian, the republicans being more so). So why do people vote republican at all? Because they like tax policy: even if it isn't in their best interests right now, people think they too will be billionaires someday and vote with that in mind. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 784
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:20 pm: | |
People are not "left". People in the US are smart enough to realise that the single best way to ensure that an important initiative or ideal is totally trashed, wasted, destroyed and corrupted is to put the Govt. in charge of it.
We need far less Govt. involvement in our lives. Im not calling for an end to all Govt. regulation and neither is the Libertarian party. But stupid stuff like not allowing any drilling in the Alaskan wilderness.... no matter what precautions are taken and no matter what the economic repurcusions and no matter how many jobs are lost or kids go hungry as a result...is moronic.
The thought of a Federally run national health cars system is downright depressing. If done, within 10 years your taxes would double and healthcare in general would go straight into the toilet.... but even more special interest groups would pump even more money into Washington giving all the politicians even more power.
The funny thing to me is that lefties actually think the Govt. works well and is capable of running massive social programs effectively and that the left wing politicians have your best interest at heart in these issues. Here is a shocker: THEY DONT.
What they are really focused on is 3 basic things.
1. Taking your money and putting it into the Federal Treasury.
2. Placing more control over your life into the hands of the Govt thereby increasing their power.
3. Keeping themselves in office.
#3 is the highest priority of coarse.
Oh, and the Republicans are different I hear you saying? Nope, not at all. The exact same thing just a different power base.
American politics in a nutshell: "As long as you promise to rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul". This is the prime mantra of the Dems and Repubs.... its just that Paul is someone different to each party.
Im with Jefferson: A little revolutions every now and then is a good thing. The US is long overdue, this system needs a basic "reset". |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 552
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 1:26 pm: | |
Recent polls showed something like 42% of people wanted Bush reelected vs. 49% that wanted him replaced. If the economy gets any worse and the Iraq situation doesn't improve massively, Bush is toast.
Howard Dean isn't all that great - he's a good public speaker though and it's just possible he will rise to the top of the weak democratic field. I wish the democrats would move left - I think they will find success. I'm nearly certain that the country as a whole is more left than the democratic party has been recently (whether these people realize it or not).
Some of you will find this statment unbelievable. But think about it. Nearly 3 million people voted for Nadar last time around. Furthermore, out of the non voting population, it's clear more are left than right. There may be some people that switch to republican if the democrats move left but I believe this is much fewer than they will gain if they picked up greens and all the leftist that currently don't vote because they don't have a viable candidate who even vaguely represents their views.
Unfortunately presidents aren't elected on a popular vote so candidates need to temper their position to win the states that aren't as liberal as the rest of the population. If the 2000 election is any indication, the close states were: AZ, AR, CO, IA, ME, MI, MN, MO, NV, NM, OH, OR, TN, WA, and WV. A lot of those are somewhat conservative states and the dems need those electoral votes.
Our electoral system sucks. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1618
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 1:18 pm: | |
the economy is not in good shape.
the only real spending is consumer spending. that was fueled by the refinace craze, which is over.
businesses just aren't investing/spending.
unemployment remains (relatively) crappy.
the fed keeps printing money. the dollar has seen notable devaluation over the past quarters.
the federal government is running record deficits.
do me a favor and show me the good news!
doody.
ps: there have also been record levels of trearury redemptions by foreign holders (esp. japanese). |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2455
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:54 pm: | |
Rob:
He's probably the demo nominee for 04. I agree with little of his positions, except his position on Iraq. I think he's too conservative on a fiscal basis, doesn't do enough for education. I would hope that if he gets to repeal the Bush tax cuts, that he makes his changes revenue neutral and provides cuts for the low income group.
I don't think that this economy is recovering. The housing market has stopped dead in its tracks in California. This hasn't shown on the charts yet, but wait until you see the numbers on the next quarter, their going to scare everyone. Literally 70 - 80% of home sales have been effected by the recent rise in interest rates. That is going to impact this economy drastically. While it may only be in California, remember we've about 15% of the USA both in population and a little more in our economics, and if we sneeze, the rest of the country gets a cold because of our size.
If the economy is good, Bush will get re-elected. If it remains the same, or gets worse, he's in big trouble.
Art |
Mark (Study)
Member
Username: Study
Post Number: 716
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:43 pm: | |
Our Economy is getting back on track for two reasons.
1.Housing Market doing great!
2.Bush with all his war. The Defense industry is hot and really making a difference in the strength of our economy. Aerospace, Electronics, Communications, Research & Development all hiring and spending because of the Military.
Howard Dean has two problems
1.Weak on Defense.
2.Strange breed from North East. I don't think middle America can get to excited about this guy.
|
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 6038
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:21 pm: | |
http://www.lp.org/issues/
I like them basically for promoting the smallest government possible. In more detail...
End drug prohibition and concentrate on real crimes.
Free market system to achieve the healthiest overall economy.
Free market education system.
Minimize foreign aid and welfare.
Right to bear arms.
Free market health care.
Defend the USA, not police the World. |
Lou B (Toby91)
Member
Username: Toby91
Post Number: 283
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:20 am: | |
A lot of people declare themselves Libertarians but I've always wondered exactly what does that means.
What are the top 5-10 Libertarian doctrines? |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 551
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:16 am: | |
Terry, the libertarians returning of the country "to the people" means simply to leave it in the hands of those that have money now and give them an even easier path to making more and more money and power at the expense of others. I don't necessarily like all the social programs the democrats support, but i certainly want some constraints on what industry can do to the environment and the workforce and competitors. So while I'm a libertarian as far as the authoritarian vs. libertarian scale, I'm farther left on the economic scale. I am interested in hearing the libertarian theories for what will keep my air and water and ocean clean if not the federal government though. |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 550
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:12 am: | |
Doody, depending on where Terry lives, he may or may not be throwing his vote away. Because of the electoral vote system, one's individual vote doesn't necessarily count. I.e. the 1.8 million extra californians who voted for gore over bush in california could have voted for gary coleman and it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the election. They wouldn't have been throwing their vote away: the system throws their vote away.
for those that live in states where the election will be close, you can start to think about whether you really prefer the democrat over the republican or vise versa. The rest of us can put our vote elsewhere if we choose and not upset that balance. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 782
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 10:03 am: | |
throwing the vote away or not..... I refuse to vote for something that is just flat WRONG. Voting Democrat or Republican is voting for the status quo. Voting Libertarian is fighting to return this country to the people! Do whats RIGHT. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 9:50 am: | |
I'll be part of the 1% and vote Libertarian
go ahead - throw your vote away!
- kang and kodos
doody. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 6036
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 9:16 am: | |
I never said he was Libertarian, just that I am and he may be a better choice than Bush. Jury is still out, just want to get everyone's opinion. I'll be part of the 1% and vote Libertarian like all other elections, unless Bush ticks me off enough and someone else has a chance to beat him. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 942
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 9:15 am: | |
Rob,
As Brucer would say GET OFF THE SAUCE BOY !!!!!
I am a Libertarian too but Dean could be the last person on earth running for President and I still wouldn't vote for him.
Listen to his speeches and it's clear he's cut from the same mold as any Democrat or Republican. Promise the people every imaginable social program, tell em' you are going to run it more efficiently, and then don't tell them that it's going to cost a couple trillion when you add it all up.
His health care ideas come straight from Hillary.
He has absolutely no economic plan and he has little experience in foreign matters or military matters.
I would vote for John Kerry long before I voted for Dean if I voted for a Democrat (which isn't likely at all).
regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
|
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1615
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 9:10 am: | |
if he's a libertarian, i'm ethel merman.
i am APPALLED that nobody can figure out how to put up a worthwhile candidate with-a-chance against george w. bush. the man is a buckethead, but he's going to be re-elected. and i'm a republican.
doody. |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2757
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 9:06 am: | |
He is also for a Hillary-esque massive health care nanny-state bureaucracy, Rob.
He is anything but a small government Libertarian. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 6033
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 8:56 am: | |
Well, I'm a Libertarian, don't like things about both major parties. However, this Howard Dean is interesting. So far I like his platform except for his support of Affirmative action and wanting to get rid of the Bush tax cuts. Affirmative action in my mind isn't equal opportunity and the key to our budget problems is less spending, not more revenue.
You can read his platforms under "On the Issues" at www.deanforamerica.com. |