| Author |
Message |
ray (Co11ins)
New member
Username: Co11ins
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 11:28 am: | |
My background is based on religious diversity that I had little control over yet gives me a perspective that encompasses many schools of thought. I�m a Jewish guy from a Jewish mother educated in the for mentioned school of thought (oi!), also, I had a Catholic high school and college education. A sidebar note is my best friend is a Muslim. I�ve been to the Middle East for the holiest holidays and attended religious festivals in homes and places of worship. Everybody there probably thought I was in the FBI, but was accepted none the less.
The Catholic priests and brothers accepted me as one of their own and told me that on an intrinsic level we study the same book and were to be treated as an equal. The Koran preaches forgiveness despite some circles utilizing the word of Allah as some license for revenge. The Jews and Catholics have been guilty of the same misinterpretation, this is human fault not a philosophical one. Hard line religion including terrorists, West Bank settlers and Jerry Falwell use religion like Hitler used the Arian uprising to cater to their own gain. Gain. Key word there, my holy crusaders.
With these statements in mind I am very wary of Christian fundamentalists absorbing the merits of our American founding forefathers claiming their achievements belong to them because these people are Christian. They are not Christian and even if the were they wrote the constitution to protect citizens against this type of religious zealot and to promote freedom. Many Christian hardliners actively ram their beliefs down the unsuspecting throats of others in the name of God. God in fact has many faces as does the face of humanity. There is no us and them, just a lot of us-es. And my Christian adversaries don�t forget Jesus was my homey. Mazaltov, not Molotov.
|
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 126
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 11:16 pm: | |
Rob L,
Since this is your first post on this thread, I have to assume you�re tired of posts that do not support your own personal beliefs and the beliefs of others here.
Out of respect for you and your forum, this will be my last post on this thread topic.
Our Italian friend Christopher Columbus found the world wasn�t flat contrary to the popular belief of his time.
JH
|
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 6106
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 10:01 pm: | |
We've been over this a thousand times. Read the previous 100 religious posts on FerrariChat.com.
BTW, most of the founding fathers of the USA were not Christian. |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 125
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 9:55 pm: | |
Robert,
You don�t get it, I don�t care if you�re Christian or Muslim, this isn�t about your faith. It�s about our Founding fathers.
News Flash
THEY WERE.
|
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 340
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 2:25 am: | |
J Haller, I just don't think you get it. I'm christian. I believe in Christ.
The founding fathers were not christian...so what! I am, christian so are you (apparently).
Bob |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 122
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 8:39 pm: | |
Robert,
I guess this has boiled down to a bunch of guys and a few web pages voting to deciding whether or not the Founding fathers were Christian or not. I�m afraid men�s words aren�t debatable when written down, unless you�re Teflon Clinton. The only way you will know for yourself is to study the men and their writings not rely on a voting pool, or someone�s historical account 100 years later, many authors leave valuable information out to prove their own political bent.
James your quote:
Roger Sherman-The only man to sign all four papers (Articles of association of 1774, Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.
"I believe that there is one only true and living God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and Glory. That the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorigy and enjoy him"
Roger Sherman �1788
You hit the nail on the head. THESE ARE QUOTES FROM THEIR OWN VOICES and written down for all intellectuals to read. NO INTERPRETATION NEEDED. No armchair lawyers needed to determine what the word �IS (or God) means.
Are you disputing what the Founding fathers wrote in our Country�s documents? If so maybe we can dispute what you say as well. Your arguments are baseless without evidence, ask any good attorney. After you have read many unabridged quotes from many of the original men, you still aren�t convinced with the evidence. I feel sorry for you. What has allowed you utter hatred for the Christian to blind you of the evidence of anything Christian, and attempt to change history, even if it means to change what someone wrote down 200 years ago?
Arthur,
Nothing Clinton today.
Since you didn�t reply on the stones, I threw them by myself today. You missed a good stoning.
|
Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 188
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 7:46 pm: | |
Public expressions of faith in God
are not equal to
Civil expressions of faith in God.
That is the crux of the argument. |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 339
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
Andy,
You're right. |
Andy mathieson (Andy)
New member
Username: Andy
Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 5:53 pm: | |
Robert
That's Jesus (THE JEW) gave ........... |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 338
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 4:59 pm: | |
Stick and Dice,
Jesus (the Christian) gave the church to Peter, Peter became the first Pope. All Catholics are Christian. Not all Christians are Catholics.
BTW, what kind of school was it anyway?
Bob |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 2023
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 4:13 pm: | |
I've taken theology classes (mandatory in the college I went to), and Catholic is not Christian. Definitely two different "schools of thought".
Cheers |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 337
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 3:24 pm: | |
Stick and Dice,
Catholic is Christian.
The "Founding Fathers" mostly believed in God, but not as the God most Christians believe in (a carring God that watches over you and cares how you are). |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 2020
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 1:05 pm: | |
Were the U.S founding fathers Christian, or Catholic, or Jesuits?
I thought they were Catholic, not Christian.
Honest question. Don't mean to fan the flames.
Cheers |
James Dunne (Audiguy)
Member
Username: Audiguy
Post Number: 261
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:58 pm: | |
If I may interject a few direct quotes here. You are free to base your own conclusions upon the actual words voiced by these men.
Roger Sherman-The only man to sign all four papers (Articles of association of 1774, Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.
"I believe that there is one only true and living God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and Glory. That the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorigy and enjoy him"
Roger Sherman --1788
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadeauate to the government of any other".
John Adams
"It must be felt that there is no national security but in the nations humble achknowledged dependance upon God and His overruling providence".
John Adams
"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it".
Daniel Webster
"I have lived sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs the affairs of men.....and if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an emerging empire can rise without His aid? I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business...
Benjamin Franklin
Requesting prayer be held before each session |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 336
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:33 pm: | |
J Haller:
http://www.postfun.com/worbois.
http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/founding_fathers_religion.HTM
http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7500.html
i could go on and on about this but do yourself and others a favor - do the research yourself. |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 573
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 10:26 am: | |
He did provide sources. See below. |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 121
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 10:22 am: | |
Robert,
I�m not Catholic, don�t watch Pat Robertson and wouldn�t have voted for him in the 80�s pres election. I haven�t classified our Founding fathers yet and won�t, but instead let their own words speak.
I own many history books the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica (spelling intended as it was in 1911) unabridged (if you know what that means) is just one of many sets. So for Shi-�s and Grins looked up Thomas Jefferson this morning. Funny, there on the pages were his own words untouched for nearly 100 years (Encyclopaedia Britannica eleventh edition Vol.15 ITA to KYS pg301-307), just as I have rewritten them here.
Still don�t understand where you�re coming from with the pick up a history book thing? If you have other information to the contrary, reference a source?
JH
|
Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 176
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 1:36 am: | |
Enzo Ferrari died for your sins!
Repent, Sinner! |
Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member
Username: Chevarri
Post Number: 141
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:51 pm: | |
Art,
"why are those christians insisting that the rest of us listen to their crap?"
A little background of me, I was raised Catholic(non practicing now).As a Catholic I was taught that as a Chrisitian/Catholic (remember Chistianity is a faith not a religion). That it is my duty as a Christian to help non-Christians become a Christian or a Catholic, so they can know God, and to love his only son Jesus. Christians believe they are a soldier for God(dont take it in the literal sense!), and the duty of this soldier is to spread the word of God. That doesnt apply to just Catholics, but to all Christians. The simple matter of the fact is that Christinas are just tifosis for God. Just like some you like sharing and telling ppl about the joys of Fcar onwership, by giving rides, and going on about how good the car is. "They" (Christians) like sharing the "word" with others.
After reading this thread, Ive found that many(if not majority) of you feel the same way Art does. Just my opinion, but reading some of your posts, it did in a way seem as though you were bashing Dans, and others beliefs. Let me put it this way. By visiting this site I have learned that your Ferraris require frequent services, every 10k or so belts, fluids and such must be changed, they are not drag cars, that parts are very expensive, and your a very devote tifosi, and passionate about your car. Now look at this I can spend say 20k in mods on a Corvette. I can laugh at you all day because with those 20k dollars I just destroyed your 180k 360M in a drag race, I get better mpg, I can start her up and not worry about weather or not my Vettes belts are going to bust, because I have to service like mad. I wont get bent over with parts when the time comes(which will be a long way). My car is more reliabe, faster, and cheaper to maintain then your Ferrari. Your defense? Oh its just a Corvette, just another car any "Johnny six pack" can afford. It cant touch my Ferraris elegance, presitige, and superior engineered Italian exotic car. I have the exotic Ferrari with soul and a prestine racing history, and you have the lowly Chevy! Now think about this real deeply, and try to understand this. You got your ass handed to you by a car with less engineering, with less soul, less "passione", with something that your average joe blow can afford. You just get destroyed by a car you yourslef deem INFERIOR. How does feel to be raped by a car that is vastly INFERIOR that anyone can afford? You can say, "Yeah, I got beat, but in the end I drive home in a Ferrari, while you drive home in a Chevy." But when it really comes down to, you got beat by what deem as a POS. Does that make you upset that one of Maranellos best got destroyed by an inferior car? Awnser: Yes it does, and you know it. All of this of what Im saying, and what Im conjuring up in your mind stirs up emotions. You might be thinking, "this Jaime guy makes me upset because hes bashing my Ferrari, which I love and hold dear. Hes bashing something Ive always cared for my entire life, and I dont like it one bit" The Same goes with Christians and their beliefs. Except they are in your position, and you are in mine, you are doing the bashing. Weather it be deliberatly, or subtle.
I dont want to come off as an arse. I just wanted to make a point here. Im sorry if I ruffled any feathers, but I had to share my views on the subject.
|
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 335
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:43 pm: | |
J haller,
Maybe you should read some US history books (any of them), instead of watching Pat Robertson and his ilk, then you would know what you claim to know.
Bob |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 334
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:36 pm: | |
J Haller,
I'm Catholic. Go to church every week. But Jefferson and Washington, and any of the other Founders, WERE NOT CHRISTIAN! At least not as you and I would clasify Christian.
|
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 120
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:43 pm: | |
Since I seem to be the only one left on this side, here goes.
Rich,
I believe my point was �Our Founding Fathers were Christian�. Don�t know where the 10 commandments organized religion and the pledge of allegiance is coming from?
Randall,
Thanks for the link and the condensed version. Will read complete later with comments, need to get ready for the new bambino coming next week.
Art,
I would hope your morals are superior to the large majority of the Christian population, and I�m not referring to politics the presidency and killing thousands, although I wonder about your position on abortion. I�m talking about your average go to church on Sunday Joe. The church today is at best a clubs of get together feel good folks, many whom bath in their own misery. And no one is casting any stones, unless you want to come over and help with the retaining wall, then I will let you throw all the stones, promise.
And Art, here is the grab bag saying for the day, he yo man.
�You can�t say you love your country and hate your government�
Bill Clinton
Oh what the hell, here�s another.
"There is no question that an admission of making false statements to government officials and interfering with the FBI and the CIA is an impeachable offense."
Bill Clinton, Arkansas Gazette, August 8, 1974
JH
|
arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2502
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:50 pm: | |
The bottom line is that with a government that has no affiliation with any religion, we are still all free to practice religion, if indeed we believe.
Given the above, why are those christians insisting that the rest of us listen to their crap? Could it be that they know they are full of it? got me. Let them believe whatever they wish, just don't foist it on me.
I have my own morals, and I suspect those are superior to most people who profess to be Christians. I certainly didn't agree to kill tens of thousands of innocents in the middle east. where do they get off telling me that I have to listen to their stuff? He who is without sin cast the first stone is a lesson those fanatics seem to have forgotten.
Art |
Randall (Randall)
Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 661
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:43 pm: | |
Here's a link stolen from Art:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6418/diests.html
"I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..."
What exactly does that mean? Does that mean he was a Christian in the sense that he had similar morals, but not the religious beliefs?
In case you don't want to click on that link, here's info from it regarding T.Jefferson:
Thomas Jefferson, who complements Washington in a trio of framed "Christian" portraits hanging in "700 Club" founder Pat Robertson�s office (the third being Robertson himself). Jefferson was accused publicly of being an atheist. More than any other founder, Jefferson was under the spell of European (and particularly French) intellectualism. His writings, and references to him by friends, certainly make him sound like a private skeptic. According to the National Park Service tourguides (meaning Federal employees, Mr. Ashcroft) at Monticello, Jefferson "belonged to no church, and explicitly denied the divinity of Jesus, viewing him merely as a great teacher of human values." Though he never actually referred to himself a deist, his private writings referred to God as "our god," complete with the lower-case "g." In a letter dated 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Jefferson�s masterwork, the Declaration of Independence, defined its purpose as to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. It affirms the principle that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of any sort of rule by divine authority. The Declaration deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and a list of grievances against the king �it never goes into the subject of religion at all. Furthermore, Jefferson�s references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration certainly do not endorse Christianity.
Of course we know that, despite these lofty ideals, Jefferson was, let�s face it, a bit of a hypocrite when it came to civil liberties �particularly slavery. Yet despite his free-thinking reputation, he formed alliances with groups like the Baptists (!), who deeply resented paying taxes to the established church in Virginia and won a long battle for a statute of religious liberty. This Statute, codified into law in 1786 and memorialized in Fredericksburg, Virginia (there�s that city again), is named by Jefferson among the three accomplishments of which he was most proud �the other two being the authorship of the Declaration of Independence and the founding of the University of Virginia.
(Another clue to Jefferson�s viewpoint might lie in his not-so-flattering description of devout Christian Patrick Henry: "an emotional volcano with little guiding intelligence." Then again, this might mean nothing more than one cranky opinionated Virginian�s view of another cranky opinionated Virginian�)
|
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 570
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:42 pm: | |
I think you are misinterpreting what Jefferson was saying. The context of those statements is that he was defending himself from Christians of his day who accused him of being an evil atheist. He was saying that he believes in a god (I think the capital letter was yours, not his) and in the teachings of Jesus but my no means abscribes to any sort of organized religion at all. For this reason, I am confident he would not want the 10 commandments displayed in a Federal Court or want the phrase "under god" to be in the pledge of allegiance. |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 119
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:13 pm: | |
Robert,
Common knowledge? BS. If you had evidence which you don�t, post it. I at least gave you that courtesy, which is more than can be said for you.
Your quote:
�It is not an opinion it IS fact. the Founding Fathers were not Christian.�
Answer:
Maybe I should go a little slower, here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson, common knowledge acknowledges him as �one of the founding fathers� unless your also disputing this fact as well.
�Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis � a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? � My views are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others ...
� Thomas Jefferson
Now even he acknowledges himself as a Christian �I am a Christian� he states. Are you disputing his own words?
�Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us worthy evidence of the fact�
George Eliot
|
PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 1400
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Ralph...Don't forget that Starbuck's was a one-store, mom & pop when it started. They had vision. Look at them now. I admire companies like this one that filled a need. Not many people dropping into Kowloon for their morning cup of coffee, hu! Nobody will go offshore for that one! |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 333
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 6:35 pm: | |
J Haller,
It is not an opinion it IS fact. the Founding Fathers were not Christian.
How many times do I or others have to back up "common knowledge"? Obviously you have a computer that is connected to the internet, look it up yourself if you do not what to believe a history buff.
Bob |
DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 5930
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
Dom, that's funny...
In fact, most of this thread is funny... Mark Study, i almost lost it after readind your cornbread comment... |
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 702
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 3:56 pm: | |
Pilots are always correct ART. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2485
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
James:
The constitution does more than just prevent the government from mandating a religion. It prevents the government from taking any such acts, including, but not limited to, presenting religion in any manner. Since the inception of this country, the courts have consistently held that to be the case. When some of us don't believe in a diety, the mention of same is the attempted sale of religion to us, and given the consittution it is prohibited.
More importantly, did you read Callahan's post? What a lot of people don't know, is that most of the constitution framers were diests (sp). In 1700 speak, that was either atheist or agnostic. The great joke on the religious right is that this place was founded by non-believers. Check it out, you'll find that Callahan and I are right.
Art |
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 701
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 3:47 pm: | |
Film Business:
I should be more specific.
~
Camera sales and film developing
Just one more little example of how
Mom and Pop can watch their business
being run more efficiently by Wal Mart. |
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 698
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 3:22 pm: | |
Dan:
I am not happy with the way globalism is taking
it to the small businessman. Appliance business,
tire business, film business, electronic business, supermarket business, clothing business, ALL GONE. You now have to own
hundreds of stores to have buying power.
Perhaps the government should give the small
businessman some more tax breaks ? It would
create "more" wealth. There has never been
one instance in history (worldwide) where a government created wealth by taxing its citizens heavily.
Nonetheless. Why don't you run the #'s on what
the people own OVER THERE ? You complained
about our Middle Class. Can you find "ANY" Middle
Class over there ? Of course anyone with even
a little bit of money over there, has how many
maids ?
|
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 117
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
Robert, Hubert,
Again your statements are opinions and not founded in documented fact. Quote sources instead of your opinion.
Your quote
�J Haller: Interesting semantics, but without substance. If anyone on this side of the debate is revisionist, it's yours;�
Answer:
My posts have been well documented quotes by men who founded this country, and not my opinion. I have done this to allow other to make their mind up to the meaning of their writing, and not my interpretation. Your posts on the other hand have been, quotes from men who lived 100 years after the founding documents were drafted, and mostly your and other men�s interpretation of these founding documents (opinions). If you wanted a debate on how our Country has evolved over the last 100 years that is quite a different matter, and your sources would have some relevance.
Your quote:
�you'd see that implicit attempts by christians to "prove" that church and state should not be seperate, and that the unilatterally accepted faith should be, chritianity are what catalyzed my participation�
Answer:
Please point to where I have made this argument? You can�t, it�s not in any writing I have posted on this board.
Instead of attacking me for your views on how this Republic should or shouldn�t have God in public or private places, Acknowledge the fact that our founding fathers either wrote these documents or didn�t.
It appears you have let your utter hatred for God interfere with a historical commentary, what a shame. God�s not going to bother you and you seem quite adept at defending yourself against Christians who may offend you, so why the hatred? What do you have to fear?
|
Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 1206
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 2:51 pm: | |
Ralph,
Less than 5% of the population controls more than 75% of the wealth in this country. Some middle class. If you want a middle class, go to the Netherlands.
--Dan |
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 697
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 2:49 pm: | |
It is not just seperation between Church and State. You also have a large social difference.
You have the elite class that owns all the assets
of the country. There is NO middle class in any of these countries.
This is also a very large factor in why there is a
big difference between the backwards way and the western way. |
Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 172
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
PeterS wrote:
Bottom line: Obey the laws of the land you live in. That is clearly in the bible.
The sermons I listened to ad nauseum (i.e. in which I didn't turn off my hearing aid and read Revelations or pass notes) which centered on obeying Government used these passages as their core:
http://bible.christiansunite.com/Naves_Topical_Bible/ntb4832.shtml
You'll note that the keyword I used was "tax" - obligatory miracle/psychic prediction is in "Jesus pays"...
The "fundamental" difference between many countries whose inhabitants are chiefly Islamic and those whose adherents practice "Western" religion is the separation of church and state.
Clearly, there is no separation of church and state by the decree of stoning as punishment. That's the law in their culture, not the Western culture which is abhorred by them. Westerners see their behavior as abhorrent, backwards behavior, they see ours as degenerate, and the wheel spins... |
Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member
Username: Rcallahan
Post Number: 332
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 2:20 pm: | |
J Haller said: "The original founders of this nation were not fleeing from religion. They were almost all Christian".
I hate to break it to you pal, but almost NONE of the "Founding Fathers" were Christian.
Bob |
Mark (Study)
Member
Username: Study
Post Number: 719
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 2:07 pm: | |
There are over 400 religions still practiced today.
Which goofy story you believe, depends mostly on where you were born.
Gambia
Nauru
Laos
Suriname
Tonga
Tuvalu
Djibouti
You folks from Alabama come on over and bring some corn-bread�.
and I'll tell you about my "GOD"
|
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 2:00 pm: | |
J Haller: Interesting semantics, but without substance. If anyone on this side of the debate is revisionist, it's yours; if you've read my previous comments, you'd see that implicit attempts by christians to "prove" that church and state should not be seperate, and that the unilatterally accepted faith should be, chritianity are what catalyzed my participation. This is, among many, of the infusions of faith (upon my soverign liberties) that I oppose! Further, my quotes were meant to purvey a general sentiment , throughout US history, to maintain the seperation; your focus on dates proves that your only rebuttals are, again, semantic. Essentially, you're attempting to discredit general sentiment by chronology; however, all history, I'll remind you, is relavent. Regarding the trancendentalism; it's what the founding father believed, personally. I didn't cite it to make a constitutionally relavent statement, but to purvey the fact that even the founding fathers sentiments were not that of the christian mainstream. Since trancendentalism was born of the German biblical critiques lead by martin luther, to revise , reappraise and analyse the assumptions surrounding the understandning of scripture. Historical revisionsists like yourself slyly try to cover over, by some spirtitual granfather clause. Point being, christianity, nor any faith, was never intended to be united to the government of this country (as even the founding father embraced a position of inquiry about so called "biblical truths")
" [I]t is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties....Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?"
� From the "Memorial and Remonstrance," 1785 James Madison
I could also remind you of the letter dated 1790 (1 yr before the ratification of the bill of rights) written by washington to the touro synagogue expressing a place for the jews.
In addition Madison �Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments� (quoted above) date 1785 still stands as one of the most potent seperatist documents, as does article 11 of the "treaty with tripoli" that denied the explicit definition of America as a "christian nation."
|
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 116
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
Hubert,
I wouldn�t call it rusty, your quotes are all from the 1800�s, and if I�m not mistaken we have been a country since 1776? And 20 years prior we were fighting for the right to be a sovereign nation? Therefore we are talking about a 30 to 100 year difference.
Your quote:
�the founding fathers you use to substantiate your argument were trancendentalists (you mean Transcendentalists?), and NOT christians (Christians?)�
Answer:
Where is the evidence to support your opinion? Can you show where in any of our Countries founding documents where the word �Transcendentalists� is mentioned? The answer is NO. The word transcendentalists come from Kant the philosopher and means the belief that knowledge of reality is derived from intuitive sources rather than from objective experience, created and written by mystics in the middle 1800�s, close to 100 years off.
Your quote:
�Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom of opinion have always proved themselves intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others? (Robert E. Lee, 1807-1870, Confederate general, letter to his wife, December 27, 1856. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 498.)�
Anwer:
1856? Again over 100 years from our Country�s inception. Civil War correspondence is hardly considered a founding document.
Your quote:
�Christianity is not established by law, and the genius of our institutions requires that the Church and the State should be kept separate....The state confesses its incompetency to judge spiritual matters between men or between man and his maker ... spiritual matters are exclusively in the hands of teachers of religion. (U. S. Supreme Court, Melvin v. Easley, 1860, as quoted by Samuel Rabinove, "Church and State Must Remain Separate," in Julie S. Bach, ed., Civil Liberties: Opposing Viewpoints, St. Paul: Greenhaven Press, 1988, p. 53.) 3�
Answer:
1860? Again 100 years off. Since when did the Supreme Court write our countries founding documents? At best the court is an oligopoly. Since 1962 they have been changing most of our original founding documents.
Your quote:
�Christianity is not established by law, and the genius of our institutions requires that the Church and the State should be kept separate....The state confesses its incompetency to judge spiritual matters between men or between man and his maker ... spiritual matters are exclusively in the hands of teachers of religion. (U. S. Supreme Court, Melvin v. Easley, 1860, as quoted by Samuel Rabinove, "Church and State Must Remain Separate," in Julie S. Bach, ed., Civil Liberties: Opposing Viewpoints, St. Paul: Greenhaven Press, 1988, p. 53.) 3�
Answer:
1860? Again 100 years off.
Your quote:
�In all ages, hypocrites, called priests, have put crowns upon the heads of thieves, called kings. (Robert G. Ingersoll, 1833-1899, Prose Poems and Selections, 1884. From Daniel B. Baker, ed., Political Quotations, Detroit: Gale Research, Inc., 1990, p. 190.)�
Answer:
1899? Can you explain how this document has any relevance to the foundation of our Republic?
What your quotes show is an even earlier attempt of the revisionists to rewrite our Countries history. There isn�t a debate on what our founding fathers wrote and meant, only whether you believe history or do not like what they wrote and try to re-vise it.
|
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 12:28 pm: | |
J Haller (Jh355): I think you're a little rusty on your history as well, as you failed to mention that the founding fathers you use to substantiate your argument were trancendentalists, and NOT christians. Further, the missive that lead to the escape from england was the desire of a freedom from religion. Essentially , those whom escaped wanted to escape the church of england , and they wanted to be free to practice, and be able to publicly express their devotion; furthermore, the freedom from religion, was essentially freedom from tyranny, as in england (and all monarchies) the kings ruled like despots under the veil of "divine right" hence, religion and the monarchy were one in the same. This is what the settlers were fleeing from, as Thomas Paine once said, "The adulterous connection of church and state." Moreover, imperative to sustaining this freedom was to levy against the creation any institutions intematly tied to any "sect" espousing a general morality or faith. Sadly, this has happened anyway with christianity. Also, to rebuff some of your quotes , here are some prudent exerpts (with sources):
Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom of opinion have always proved themselves intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others? (Robert E. Lee, 1807-1870, Confederate general, letter to his wife, December 27, 1856. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 498.)
When the Know-Nothings get control, it [the Declaration of Independence] will read: "All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer immigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty--to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy. (Abraham Lincoln, 16th U. S. President [1860-1865], letter to Joshua F. Speed, August 24, 1855, according to Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, pp. 59-60.)
Convinced that religious liberty must, most assuredly, be built into the structural frame of the new [state] government, Jefferson proposed this language [for the new Virginia constitution]: "All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution": freedom for religion, but also freedom from religion. (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 38. Jefferson proposed his language in 1776.)
Christianity is not established by law, and the genius of our institutions requires that the Church and the State should be kept separate....The state confesses its incompetency to judge spiritual matters between men or between man and his maker ... spiritual matters are exclusively in the hands of teachers of religion. (U. S. Supreme Court, Melvin v. Easley, 1860, as quoted by Samuel Rabinove, "Church and State Must Remain Separate," in Julie S. Bach, ed., Civil Liberties: Opposing Viewpoints, St. Paul: Greenhaven Press, 1988, p. 53.) 3
... the First Amendment of the Constitution ... was intended to allow everyone under the jurisdiction of the United States to entertain such notions respecting his relations to his maker, and the duties they impose, as may be approved by his conscience, and to exhibit his sentiments in such form of worship as he may think proper, not injurious to the rights of others, and to prohibit legislation for the support of any religious tenets, or the modes of worship of any sect. (U. S. Supreme Court, 1890, Darwin v. Beason, as quoted by Samuel Rabinove, "Religious Liberty and Church-State Separation: Why Should We Care?," speech on April 10, 1986, Vital Speeches of the Day, June 15, 1986, p. 528.
In all ages, hypocrites, called priests, have put crowns upon the heads of thieves, called kings. (Robert G. Ingersoll, 1833-1899, Prose Poems and Selections, 1884. From Daniel B. Baker, ed., Political Quotations, Detroit: Gale Research, Inc., 1990, p. 190.)
There's more, but there's no need to go on. It should also be noted that jackson, jefferson and franklin were all seperationists in this regard (jackson the most noted in his penning of the Virginia constitution). |
Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member
Username: Dom
Post Number: 420
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:12 am: | |
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
This reminds me of a (tasteless) joke:
As the crowd was about to stone the prostitute, jesus came and said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
Ashamed, the crowd began to disperse. All of a sudden a little old lady picked up a rock and nailed the prostitute right between the eyes.
Jesus looks over and says "Mom, sometimes you really piss me off"
|
Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Member
Username: Ralessi
Post Number: 284
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:10 am: | |
If you want, you can always click edit and delete all of the text of one of the posts.
|
James Dunne (Audiguy)
Member
Username: Audiguy
Post Number: 255
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:47 am: | |
Oops, sorry for the double post. I will try to do better next time. |
James Dunne (Audiguy)
Member
Username: Audiguy
Post Number: 254
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:46 am: | |
Art,
The clause in the Constitution you speak of does not say "separation of church and state". It says that the government will not have the right to force any religion on the citizens or "freedom from religion" if you so choose. Before coming to America, The Church of England was the government mandated church in England. To help make sure that this could not happen here, they wrote in that the government could not control which religion people had to practice here. They would be free to practice the one of their choice if they wanted or not practice at all if they so chose, with no government interference. It does not say that church and state should be separated completely. It simply guarantees to the citizens that the government cannot mandate a type of religion that you have to adhere to.
Randall,
The stonings you refer to were in Old Testament law. If you will remember the story in the New Testament of the prostitute who was about to be stoned for her "sin", you will see a different attitude. She was brought before Jesus by the accusers and Jesus was asked what they should do as law showed she should be stoned. He said to them "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The accusers reluctantly dropped their rocks and left. Jesus then asked her where her accusers were. She said they were gone. He then said to her, "neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more". This is showing true forgiveness and compassion. Jesus was even asked once by one of his disciples how many times they should forgive someone. He was asked, "should it be seven times"? His response was "not seven but seventy times seven". And Jesus also said that if "a brother strikes you on one cheek, you should turn the other cheek also".
I am not trying to win anyone over or force my beliefs on you but believe if you are going to question my beliefs, you need to have correct information on which you make your accusations.
Mine is not an organized religion with a set in stone, unfollowable set of man made rules. It is based on my personal relationship with Jesus Christ. No one else's, just my own. Choose for yourself. I am not a judge and will not assume that role. I cannot say you are going to hell. That is not my position either.
There are a good many supposed Christians out there who espouse a lot of "stuff" that may or may not be true. They get in your face and try to make your decisions for you. In fact, they try to force you to make a decision of their leading. This should not be done either. I choose to believe that God made us creatures of free choice and in doing so, we all make the decisions for the directions in our lives. I can choose mine and you can choose yours. I accept you as you are and hope you will accept me.
I was not influenced by my parents to accept a certain type of religion or required to go to church. As a matter of fact, for a good part of my life I did not go. I studied the different religions for enlightenment, not to choose one to follow. I learned of the Torah, The Koran, The Bible, The Book of Mormon and a few others I do not recall. Over a period of time while I was recuperating from motocross racing injury and laid up for several months, I began to feel the urge to read a little deeper into the Bible. The more I read, the more I found and began to understand. I do not know how it happened but I know that in 1976 I made the choice to believe in Jesus Christ and have done so to this day. It was not forced on me, I did not grow up attending church schools and I did not have a group shoving it down my throat. It was an individual thing I did alone and I hold on to it. This doesn't make me any worse or any better than anyone else. It just gives me a set of beliefs that I choose to follow.
That being said, can we still be FerrariChat buds??? My fingers are getting tired and I am sure I have said enough. |
James Dunne (Audiguy)
Member
Username: Audiguy
Post Number: 253
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:38 am: | |
Art,
The clause in the Constitution you speak of does not say "separation of church and state". It says that the government will not have the right to force any religion on the citizens or "freedom from religion" if you so choose. Before coming to America, The Church of England was the government mandated church in England. To help make sure that this could not happen here, they wrote in that the government could not control which religion people had to practice here. They would be free to practice the one of their choice if they wanted or not practice at all if they so chose, with no government interference. It does not say that church and state should be separated completely. It simply guarantees to the citizens that the government cannot mandate a type of religion that you have to adhere to.
Randall,
The stonings you refer to were in Old Testament law. If you will remember the story in the New Testament of the prostitute who was about to be stoned for her "sin", you will see a different attitude. She was brought before Jesus by the accusers and Jesus was asked what they should do as law showed she should be stoned. He said to them "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The accusers reluctantly dropped their rocks and left. Jesus then asked her where her accusers were. She said they were gone. He then said to her, "neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more". This is showing true forgiveness and compassion. Jesus was even asked once by one of his disciples how many times they should forgive someone. He was asked, "should it be seven times"? His response was "not seven but seventy times seven". And Jesus also said that if "a brother strikes you on one cheek, you should turn the other cheek also".
I am not trying to win anyone over or force my beliefs on you but believe if you are going to question my beliefs, you need to have correct information on which you make your accusations.
Mine is not an organized religion with a set in stone, unfollowable set of man made rules. It is based on my personal relationship with Jesus Christ. No one else's, just my own. Choose for yourself. I am not a judge and will not assume that role. I cannot say you are going to hell. That is not my position either.
There are a good many supposed Christians out there who espouse a lot of "stuff" that may or may not be true. They get in your face and try to make your decisions for you. In fact, they try to force you to make a decision of their leading. This should not be done either. I choose to believe that God made us creatures of free choice and in doing so, we all make the decisions for the directions in our lives. I can choose mine and you can choose yours. I accept you as you are and hope you will accept me.
I was not influenced by my parents to accept a certain type of religion or required to go to church. As a matter of fact, for a good part of my life I did not go. I studied the different religions for enlightenment, not to choose one to follow. I learned of the Torah, The Koran, The Bible, The Book of Mormon and a few others I do not recall. Over a period of time while I was recuperating from motocross racing injury and laid up for several months, I began to feel the urge to read a little deeper into the Bible. The more I read, the more I found and began to understand. I do not know how it happened but I know that in 1976 I made the choice to believe in Jesus Christ and have done so to this day. It was not forced on me, I did not grow up attending church schools and I did not have a group shoving it down my throat. It was an individual thing I did alone and I hold on to it. This doesn't make me any worse or any better than anyone else. It just gives me a set of beliefs that I choose to follow.
That being said, can we still be FerrariChat buds??? My fingers are getting tired and I am sure I have said enough. |
Randall (Randall)
Member
Username: Randall
Post Number: 652
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:30 am: | |
"The problem in this country is that the left wing lib's want to throw God out of our country."
Not at all true. People just want it thrown out of schools and workplaces. No taxpayer financed religion. I can't recall ever seeing non-religious people picketing churches and trying to get them out of town.
The highschool I went to didn't allow prayer in class, which I feel is appropriate. The kids that wanted to pray, showed up early for school and had prayer groups outside. That is okay. The classroom is for learning, the workplace is for working and the church is for religion. The outdoors is there for anything, as long as it's not lewd/disruptive behavior.
The religious right feels you should be able to pray where ever and whenever you want. That's as bad as the far left that feels you should be able to say whatever and dress how ever you want no matter way you are. There is a time and place for everything. |
Anka (Mechanka)
Junior Member
Username: Mechanka
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:20 am: | |
Randall, Randall, Randall�if you knew anything about Christianity than you certainly wouldn�t have had pulled a �law� from the book of Leviticus form the Old Testament to prove your point. Please realize that Christians predominately follow the New Testament;
��What changed at the time Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead is that we who follow Christ are no longer required to obey the Old Testament laws in order to obtain a saved relationship with God...�
Aside:
Please note that unlike the Americas and most European countries, which pride themselves in keeping church and sate separate, since Israel was a theocracy the laws regulated both religion and the nation as one.
As well, a lot of you keep bringing up little snippets of information extracted from the bible or wherever else, to prove your point. Every religion has its drawbacks or shortcomings, after all the church in many ways is represent by people, therefore it can not be perfect in every aspect. I suggest, look at the bigger picture and what each religion stands for.
The bible is a tricky thing to comprehend or translate. Only the well educated on the subject can begin to extrapolate the meaning or message of a lot of the passages in the text. We must realize that 2000 even 4000 thousand years ago civilization was on a different level than today. What had a clear meaning then does not necessary have one now. The culture and the way of life permeates though the whole bible. Therefore it is better to view the bible, in some instances, as a metaphor for life and not take it quite so literally. Like I mentioned, it takes a very educated individual to translate a lot of the messages from the text for us to understand the intended meaning behind it.
�People who live in glass houses shouln�t throw stones�
Translation; People who have faults should not criticize others
|
PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:16 am: | |
Art..In the last 20 years, God is out, MTV is in. The pledge is getting kicked out of our schools. A high percentage of every poor immigrant (with no work skills or the drive to make it on their own) that comes to the country is protected by the ACLU and their liberal lawyers, and on, and on and on and gets worse every day. Affirmative Action is ruining our country. Art, with great respect, I ask you when in the hell is all of this going to stop? This is your country too! I would give anything to have your talent and education to be in a better position to rally for more of a moral society!
I am not one for pushing anything down anybody's throat, BUT the moral fabric of America is going down the toilet pretty fast. All I would like to see is some sort of a happy medium before we all become part of a cesspool of a country.
|
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 219
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:59 am: | |
Art - I agree with your points, I just wouldn't refer to it as BS. Some people may take offense - kinda belittling (if thats a word). |
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 115
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:59 am: | |
It appears that our current generations have forgotten their history lessons. It would be difficult for us to understand the conditions that drove our country's founders to take such terrible risks in order to flee the tyrannical governments of Europe. Nor can we understand the passions that drove them to sacrifice everything to establish a new kind of nation "America", a nation founded on the proposition that only God can grant life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not government.
The original founders of this nation were not fleeing from religion. They were almost all Christian. And even those who were not were God-fearing people with a respect for the Bible as God's Word.
What they were fleeing was a state mandated denomination of Christianity. This was at the core of why the First Amendment was written, which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
When they wrote, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," they meant that the Congress should not establish the Catholics, the Baptists, the Presbyterians or the Episcopalians, etc., as the official State religion.
They had all seen the tyranny of state-mandated religion in Europe, and wanted to worship God as their consciences dictated. But they never meant to exclude public expressions of faith in God. That was a completely abnormal thought to them.
It is rightly impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible � Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.
� First U.S. president, George Washington
If we will not be governed by God, we must be governed by tyrants.
� William Penn, a contributor to the Constitution
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.
� John Adams, 1798
These statements clearly reveal the convictions of the authors of the Declaration of Independence, which begins:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Men who participated in the founding of this country made the following observations:
We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.
� Benjamin Franklin
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis � a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? � My views are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others ...
� Thomas Jefferson
One of the greatest patriots among the U.S. founders was Patrick Henry. He made it clear which religion the U.S. founders believed: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians ... Our country was founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.
� Samuel Adams
You can't have national morality apart from religious principle.
� George Washington
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.
� John Adams
Do you wonder why we can't build prisons fast enough to contain the lawless.
God intends you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God ... If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupt.
� Daniel Webster
"No power over the freedom of religion is delegated to the United States by the Constitution."
� James Madison
In the last 30 years our nation�s history has been completely revised and rewritten.
Abraham Lincoln warned of the consequences of this: "The philosophy of the schoolroom in one generation will be the philosophy of the government of the next."
So did Benjamin Rush: "Let the children ... be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools.
P.S. Arthur,
Our country came into existence because of a bunch of right wing religious guys; You have these right wing religious guys to thank for the freedom to spew any crap you want from your mouth, just like me.
|
J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member
Username: Jh355
Post Number: 114
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:58 am: | |
It appears that our current generations have forgotten their history lessons. It would be difficult for us to understand the conditions that drove our country's founders to take such terrible risks in order to flee the tyrannical governments of Europe. Nor can we understand the passions that drove them to sacrifice everything to establish a new kind of nation "America", a nation founded on the proposition that only God can grant life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not government.
The original founders of this nation were not fleeing from religion. They were almost all Christian. And even those who were not were God-fearing people with a respect for the Bible as God's Word.
What they were fleeing was a state mandated denomination of Christianity. This was at the core of why the First Amendment was written, which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
When they wrote, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," they meant that the Congress should not establish the Catholics, the Baptists, the Presbyterians or the Episcopalians, etc., as the official State religion.
They had all seen the tyranny of state-mandated religion in Europe, and wanted to worship God as their consciences dictated. But they never meant to exclude public expressions of faith in God. That was a completely abnormal thought to them.
It is rightly impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible � Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.
� First U.S. president, George Washington
If we will not be governed by God, we must be governed by tyrants.
� William Penn, a contributor to the Constitution
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.
� John Adams, 1798
These statements clearly reveal the convictions of the authors of the Declaration of Independence, which begins:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Men who participated in the founding of this country made the following observations:
We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.
� Benjamin Franklin
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis � a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? � My views are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others ...
� Thomas Jefferson
One of the greatest patriots among the U.S. founders was Patrick Henry. He made it clear which religion the U.S. founders believed: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians ... Our country was founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.
� Samuel Adams
You can't have national morality apart from religious principle.
� George Washington
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.
� John Adams
Do you wonder why we can't build prisons fast enough to contain the lawless.
God intends you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God ... If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupt.
� Daniel Webster
"No power over the freedom of religion is delegated to the United States by the Constitution."
� James Madison
In the last 30 years our nation�s history has been completely revised and rewritten.
Abraham Lincoln warned of the consequences of this: "The philosophy of the schoolroom in one generation will be the philosophy of the government of the next."
So did Benjamin Rush: "Let the children ... be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools.
P.S. Arthur,
Our country came into existence because of a bunch of right wing religious guys; You have these right wing religious guys to thank for the freedom to spew any crap you want from your mouth.
|
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2482
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:24 am: | |
PeterS:
We don't want to throw "god" out. Everybody is more than willing to allow you to hold, practice and believe as you wish. What we don't want is someone else pushing those beliefs into our face when we don't believe them to be true. By all means hold the beliefs you want, act as you want, vote as you want. But don't push that B/S in my face, in my kids face or in buildings that my taxes have paid for. You're absolutely free to do what you wish, unless you are prompting a religion, which our founders realized was not a good idea, and put a little clause in our consitution about it: Seperation of Church and State.
In my hunble opinion, all of this grief has been caused by right wing religious groups attempting to use the power of government to push their ideas. That's wrong, and they should leave well enough alone.
Regards,
Art |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 564
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 9:15 am: | |
Peter, being left or right wing in this country is mainly an economic policy distinction. You'll find agnostics on both sides of that fence. |
PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 1397
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 8:58 am: | |
David..Good points. The problem in this country is that the left wing lib's want to throw God out of our country. |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 217
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 8:13 am: | |
Peter - Of course you have to obey the laws of the land you live in - no arguments there. In discussing new laws or changing existing laws e.g. changing abortion rights, prayer in school etc., I dont believe one particular religion or religious beliefs should play into the law. We should not force people to pray or refer to a higher power they may not believe in. Nor should we take away personal rights that dont impact others.
Most laws should simply be based on common sense / common decency. |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page