| Author |
Message |
Amir (Amir)
Junior Member
Username: Amir
Post Number: 99
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 10:54 pm: | |
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Mark Lambert (Mlambert890)
Junior Member
Username: Mlambert890
Post Number: 109
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 10:45 pm: | |
The problem with the endlessly increasing legitimization of illegals is that there is a dominoe effect. For example, the latest piece of legislation under consideration in California is to make community college free for illegals only. There reaches a point where the designation "illegal" has no meaning. Personally, I believe that's a dangerous line for the US to cross.
Complicating the matter is that any discussion of this issue tends to get highly personal. Case in point; just as, perhaps, Jeff's opinion has been colored by particularly bad experiences with illegal labor, I think Rich's has been colored by particularly good experiences with illegals.
It's all specious though since there *is* an established *legal* immigration system.
I think Art hit the core of the issue, but I believe the reasoning that the "economy needs illegals" is BS and is a smokescreen pushed by the rich and their pet politicians. Wealthy US vineyard owners "need" the illegals and the politicians are pandering to them. The middle class ultimately suffers, but enough of the left wing in CA is tricked into jumping on board since it's a "minority issue" that the legislation goes through. Meanwhile, ironically, only the wealthy truly benefit.
If you want cheap strawberries, you don't have to sell out the value of US citizenship to get them. Oppose the farm subsidies and the concessions to wealthy commercial farmers so the third world can actually participate in the world economy in a REAL way and you will get cheap (albeit *imported*) strawberries.
The problem is that globalism has been completely geared towards enriching the already rich and the nations of the 3rd world and the middle class of the 1st world are paying the price.
Look at the great wave of Indian outsourcing. American corporations are finding the new "white color" illegal - the overseas worker who works for 1/10th an American wage since the local economy is hopelessly dysfunctional.
The US evolving into a skeleton of corporations staffed 100% by foreign labor (when possible) and illegal labor when you need hands on is not a model that can be considered "healthy capitalism".
The average working American needs to make their voices heard before this country is completely sold down the river by it's top 1% who are perfectly happy as long as they can still sell to foreign markets (the State Dept will ensure that), are interested only in maximizing profit and already pay 90% of the tax burden. Scary when you think about it. |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 606
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 3:36 pm: | |
Mexifornia? No need for that since California is already a Spanish name and our heritage is clearly Spanish. |
Jim E (Jimpo1)
Advanced Member
Username: Jimpo1
Post Number: 2550
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 2:22 pm: | |
Damn, should've scrolled first. Sorry Sunny! |
Jim E (Jimpo1)
Advanced Member
Username: Jimpo1
Post Number: 2549
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | |
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rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 603
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:46 am: | |
Thanks Ken. I could have responded better myself, too.
Being out of the public school system isn't all that bad. I'm not a huge fan of the structure of public schools and how they go about "educating" our kids. We had a great school when we lived in Pacifica, but it succeeded by being very un-school-like. But all other schools I've experienced (regardless of their test scores or funding level or student body) are not the kind of place I want my kids to be. Homeschooling seems to be the thing that suits us - especially with the resources provided by the center and they even run classes there so he can attend a few times a week and still experience the classroom environment (though in a mixed age way like the old country school houses of the past) and they organize a lot of field trips and whatnot as well. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2585
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
Dr. Lee:
I am pleased that you were man enough to review the posts and make an accurate statement. It (the apology) disproves what I said about you.
Art |
Dr. Ken Lee (Kenster888)
Member
Username: Kenster888
Post Number: 293
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 11:23 pm: | |
rich, I read the posts again. While I 100% disagree with your views, I do admit that the words I used in my original post toward you where I said
��But after reading what you have to say, I came to the conclusion that you really don't know what you're talking about and what the issues are.��
were a bit strong and would likely provoke an undesirable response. Therefore, I do apologize for the above quoted statement. I'm beginning to feel sorry for you as you have to pull your kids out of regular school. This isn't right.
Art, regardless of my apology to rich, your statements toward me were uncalled for. |
PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 1496
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 6:00 pm: | |
Please excuse my type-o in spelling the word BORDER |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 602
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 5:28 pm: | |
Peter, that's a good plan and one I would welcome. It's much more reasonable than simple blanket desires to keep out everyone not born in this country.
It sounds like Jeff has had some bad experiences with the illegal labor force and I don't mean to say that that sort of thing doesn't happen. I just wonder how much of that is due to their current status and could be addressed through a more thought out system. I refuse to believe it has anything to do with them being racially latino or inherant (sp?) in their "culture". I also happen to have lived in areas with large illegal populations, worked for years with non-citizens in the tech industry, have had girlfriends who were here illegally when I was in university (au pairs who overstayed their 90 day tourist visas to work for a whole year), and neither my wife nor two kids were born in this country. Yes, my wife has a green card and yes my kids are citizens but that's just a quirk of the particular laws we have. Anyway, all of this has given me a broader view of concepts of citizenship and entitlement than I might otherwise have had and keeps me from wanting to draw any hard and fast lines in the sand to keep foreigners out.
The current situation is terrible and I have felt its effects first hand. We live in the country side and the nearest public school, and thus the one we are stuck with the way our district runs things, is full of immigrant kids. I can't help but think this impacts how terrible the school is. But my solution was not to wish that those kids didn't have a place to go to school or that the school ignored their needs and taught at a higher level. My solution was to simply pull my kid out of the school and do home school. Yes, I'm paying taxes for a school system I'm not using but I just add that to the list of other things I'm paying for that I don't really want. Such is life in the USA. (actually, we do receive free books and access to educational counselors and whatnot via our homeschool association which is itself technically a public school so I guess I'm getting my money's worth).
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PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 1495
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 5:08 pm: | |
G.Peters: You wrote: "As for getting a license, do you really think someone in this country illegally will go to a government office to apply, since border patrol officials can secure this information . "
Yes! It happens EVERY day! Wake up, please.
Art: Your views are in-line. In parallel, I believe that 'some' group needs to establish a game plan of 'do's and don'ts ' for the people south of the border that want to work here. I welcome their work. I do not welcome them staying. I feel that the land owners that need the labor should be accountable for the workers' whereabouts and see that they go back over the boarder when the work is done (or to another farm, etc.). A few here would post that this may be 'slave trading', but do you have any better ideas than to let them stay? |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2582
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 4:43 pm: | |
Jeff:
You're wrong: here's the article, and 19th in business taxes also:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/31/MN101774.DTL
What happened in California is that these idiots forgot that what goes up must come down, and they spent the surplus, without regard to an economic downturn.
Regards,
Art |
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 451
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
The biggest issue I have with the illegals other than the expenses of them and crime is they come over and impose their values and standard of living to us, they are guests here but you would not know it, they try and take over and dominate wherever they are if their are enough of them.
As far as being good workers a few maybe but as a whole they will try and take advantage of you anyway they can,they will be nice to your face but they have a deep contempt for everyone but themselves, this was my experience as I had a lot of them employed at my car wash in California, where I did check to make sure they gave me proof of being legal but I am sure many had false documentation, a license will make it that much easier for them to appear legit.
For everyday workers the cost of living may be 19th in the Country but for Business owners forget it, you are taxed on taxes there, I would say its the most expensive State in the US by far to operate a business which is why many are leaving and part of the reasons Cali is almost bankrupt.
California is the poster child for how to mess up a State. |
rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 601
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
Dale mentioned NAFTA. I'm not sure that's such a great long term solution. I stil think it is better to import a worker, than export a job (i.e. u.s. factories or agriculture moving to mexico where labor is cheaper).
But I guess the reason I'm able to accept the status quo in regards to illegal workers is that I have no fear of Mexicans. I live in an agricultural area and am surrounded by them and they work hard and are for the most part good people. And the kids born here into citizenship? I see no reason to doubt that they can become as productive members of our society as children born to legal mothers. If we educate these children, keep them healthy, and provide to them the same opportunities we provide children born to legal white mothers, then why would we doubt they can be just as valuable of an addition to our state as any other child? (of course we fail miserably in trying to provide equal education and opportunity but our failure to do that should not be reason to exclude these future members of our society). |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2581
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
Dr; Lee:
Go back through the posts: you threw the first insult. You then got all huffy because people took umbrage about that. If I'm wrong about that, please point it out. If I'm right, an apology to Rich is probably in order.
Dave & Dale:
Lastly, of course enforcement of our immigration laws on both ends are in order. However, since the people with the most to lose are those who control if the demand is in place, doesn't it make sense to start there? Of course it does, and the refusal of the Feds to do just that indicates that they don't want to cut these people out.
Art |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2580
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 3:31 pm: | |
Dave:
I'm starting trial tomorrow (I'm in the office preparing, and as you can tell, taking time to do this). However, 2 weeks ago, in the Chronicle they did a study about taxes (big issue now) we aren't the highest tax rate, and I think we rank 19th in the US when all of the factors are put in. We do have the highest cost of living, but that is a factor of our high real estate costs, which relate directly to the desirability of living here. At any rate, if it settles monday, I'll up date with the study link, if not, I won't.
Hope the driving course was good for you.
Art |
Dr. Ken Lee (Kenster888)
Member
Username: Kenster888
Post Number: 292
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 2:53 pm: | |
artie, you insulted my "academic integrity" by saying:
"I suspect you are not used to people challenging your opinions, given that you have the power to pass or fail them"
You want to attack my views...go right ahead. But be careful what you say.
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Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member
Username: Drtax
Post Number: 382
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 2:20 pm: | |
>>Two reasons: 1. they'd cost more, and two it would encourage more illegal immigration. Believe it or not, the system is working well just the way it is. If we truly wanted to change the way things are done, they'd just enforce the criminal penalties against the employers.<<
Art, I'd venture to say that the dozen or so people who recently suffocated in the back of a tractor trailer would disagree with you, if they could.
Because you are a lawyer by training, it is logical for you to think that passing or enforcing a law is the cure to an underlying economic problem. Problem is that we can pass all the laws we want... we can line up the Army all along the Mexican border... and it still will not stop illegal workers. Economists call this "Voting with your feet." So long as we remain the world's richest country and Mexico one of the poorest, we will have people voting with their feet.
NAFTA is the start to the long-term solution. By increasing economic wealth in Mexico, we will decrease illegal workers. But in the long run, we are all dead. We need a way to bridge the gap.
Remember, most of these folks don't really want to come. They come because they have no choice.
Dale |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2803
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | |
Art, I am genuinely sorry to see your cop-out on actually clamping down on illegal immigration. I agree--penalize those who employ them--but also penalize & deport those who cross our borders illegally. Just as Mexico would if you entered their country illegally.
As for this comment: "We have a higher standard of living than any other state in the union, and we're probably the best place in the world to live."
Higher standard of living? BS, Art. You are among the 3 most highly taxed states, you have the biggest gap between rich & poor, and the highest costs of living in the Lower 48 (Hawaii is a different story). While I respect your obvious pride in your home state, what you say is merely an opinion, and is not at all substantiated with any facts---rather the opposite, actually.
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Dr. Ken Lee (Kenster888)
Member
Username: Kenster888
Post Number: 291
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 2:15 pm: | |
DL, I could only remember participating in one other thread that was a little heated. I voice my opinions the way I see it. Don��t expect everybody to like it or agree with it. If you have an opinion, express it.
If anybody thinks I'm an idiot, so be it. I don't give a ratt's ass. If I think someone is an idiot, I'll say it. Believe it or not I actually consider what the others have to say and sometimes change my view based on valid arguments (on certain threads I'm not participating in). |
DL (Darth550)
Member
Username: Darth550
Post Number: 280
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 1:51 pm: | |
Dr. Lee,
As an observer, who will not enter an opinion on this topic, all I can say is that ALL of the threads I have seen you participate in become pissing contests. So there you are....with the most piss on your leg.
Just wondering, what do you hope to gain?
DL |
Dr. Ken Lee (Kenster888)
Member
Username: Kenster888
Post Number: 290
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 1:26 pm: | |
Master artie, thanks for pointing me to the light as I can see you're a man with great wisdom. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2578
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 1:09 pm: | |
Dale;
Two reasons: 1. they'd cost more, and two it would encourage more illegal immigration. Believe it or not, the system is working well just the way it is. If we truly wanted to change the way things are done, they'd just enforce the criminal penalties against the employers.
As to Dr. Lee: impinge your intregrity: I didn't, your objectionable language did that for you. Calling people names got you busted for bad behavior, if you can't take the heat, perhaps you might wish to use what little reasoning power you have before you open your mouth. If I were you, I'd shut up, before you truly prove yourself an idiot.
Art |
Dr. Ken Lee (Kenster888)
Member
Username: Kenster888
Post Number: 289
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 12:08 pm: | |
artie, nice try. How dare you and rich attack my academic integrity and professionalism. Perhaps you don't understand these terms being a lawyer. Never thought you guys would go so low just to get a cheap shot.
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Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member
Username: Drtax
Post Number: 379
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 11:20 am: | |
Art, (before this whole thread goes down in flames)I'd like to ask you again... what's so wrong with making illegals, legal?
Curious in Tejas
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