| Author | Message | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
New member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2003 |
Dave- I'm not sure who brought that car up- if they brought one up, it probably is the same one. You don't see one of those everyday- ha! | ||
| Panditha Sarathchandra (Suprakid1982)
New member Username: Suprakid1982 Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2003 |
Porsches are hand built last I heard/checked so is the Acura NSX. | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2003 |
Andrew, I didnt for one moment take your comments the wrong way! I agree totally that technology has comprised the 'art' of Ferrari, only that compromise hasnt necessarily been a bad thing. The Ferrari "art" was integrating the process in such a way that they turned it into a plus in my humble opinion. I wish my financial position would enable me to have a collection of cars both newer and older than mine! At the end of the day any car that carries the F badge is a masterpiece. | ||
| Dave White (Dwhite)
Junior Member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2003 |
Andrew that was'nt the 250 California Spyder brought up by Autosport Design by any chance, was it? | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
New member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2003 |
Gordo- I didn't post that picture meaning to imply I don't like the "more current" cars- your 348 is a beautiful piece of art- as is the 355, another favorite of mine. And a clear cover displaying the mid-engine and alumimum support structure of a 360? A masterpiece! That pic of the California Spyder was from the 360 challenge race in Limerock CT this past summer (which is really like a car show with the Ferrari's that show up!) I took almost 100 digital pictures that day with one car nicer than the next- hardly watched the race! | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 915 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hugh- I would love the chance to read it! [email protected] if you get a chance. Perhaps others here would enjoy a link or such? Best! Ben. | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2003 |
Without a doubt Andrew that is a masterpiece, I raise three points: 1. Could I find a Ferrari let alone afford to own one if it was 100% handbuilt? Not a chance. Maybe it would be argued that that isnt a bad thing but I selfishly am thankful! 2. Has technology taken away something from art? Probably yes, but in return it has hopefully helped deliver cars Ferrari's that are more reliable, safer, more aerodynamic and still uniquely beautiful. 3. Are they still by definition Art? I don't think any of us would own them if we didnt believe they were the most beautiful cars in the world and that they were in whatever way 'Art' To me art is more about the creativity that conceives the idea, not so much the materials. I dont necessary believe hand made is always better, done properly it is clearly desireable, but it is also generally considerably more expensive. A few of my friends own TVRs, a truly beautiful handbuilt car, but none of them rave about tremendous build quality. To me its about striking the balance of using modern technology to augment the artist, not stifle or sanitize their creativity. To me Ferrari does that better than anyone, and although I may have a robotically created 348 she's art to me! | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 911 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hubba, hubba... nice pic, Andrew! | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
New member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2003 |
I prefer this....  | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 910 Registered: 2-2003 |
To put another spin on this thread, the original is the true work of art. The rest are replicas. For example, in the Jag XK120, there is a plate mounted into the dash stating that this car is a replica of the record breaking car that achieved 120mph+ blah blah blah. Its put there by the manufacturer. Why? rep�li�ca n. 1. A copy or reproduction of a work of art, especially one made by the original artist. re�pro�duc�tion n. 1. The act of reproducing or the condition or process of being reproduced. The question: Does a "modern" replica become less authentic or have less artistic value than the original for being manufactured/assembled by a machine? In my opinion, most certainly yes. forgery n. 1: a copy that is presented as the original | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2003 |
Robots or not I think they are stunning.  | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1406 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hey, Ben, a long time ago , I wrote a brief dissertation on your very question; namely, the meaning of art in the age of mechanical reproduction. I won't be as assuming (or pretentious) as to post it here (unless requested), but I could email it to you. Regards, Hubert. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 902 Registered: 6-2002 |
Peter- exactly! Infact, I was thinking of the 3x8 series, which is pretty much universally regarded as one of the most beautiful cars ever built. I think it's no question (to me at least) that Ferraris are rolling art. Heck, I doubt it even gets debated all that much  Best! Ben. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 192 Registered: 2-2003 |
I have heard and seen Italians go crazy over ferrari. If Italians have anything its passion. I bet its hard to get a job at a legendary car manufacture like ferrari. Therefore I think its safe to say the advarage ferrari employee has passion for there art. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3384 Registered: 6-2001 |
but dan, does the guy who hand assembles the ferraris have passion? probably not, he is just doing his job and colecting a pay check. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 3098 Registered: 12-2000 |
Ben: "What about a car who's body pannels are formed in a press, but assembled by hand?" Just like the 308/328/348/etc... In fact, the 348's structure was largely built by robots (jig'ed up and spot welded). | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 191 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ben, You raise an important point. It doesn't seem that anyone cares to much about weather Ferraris are art. I have been at this site for about a year now and cant rember more than three threads that are even remotely about Ferraris as art. I just don't know of a more important reason to go head over heels about Ferrari. There cars have been about passion and art. I now think thats changing somewhat with tecnology. Can a robot have passion? I think not. Can the guy who builds the robot have passion? I think thats a stretch. We don't want watered down Ferraris. I believe and will always believe that exotic cars should be ranked by how artistic they are not how fast they are. (You can buy a faster car for less) | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 887 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dan- you raise an important philosophical question. And before we get into this any furthur, realize that this is just a subjective blather, and that I think your opinion is just as valid as mine (besides, I doubt any body else really cares Is Art intrinsic to what is directly touched and manipulated by the artist? Or can it extend beyond man and machine? What about, say, the Statue of Liberty. Is it not art because a bunch of workers labored to create one man's design/vision? What if they were robots? What about large sculpture? What about some buildings? What if I build a gas tank for a motorcycle, but don't cut the pannel myself but program a laser-cutter to do it? Isn't that still just my tool that I used? (albit a more advanced tool.) What about a car who's body pannels are formed in a press, but assembled by hand? Is only a car who's pannels were hand-beaten truely art? What if the creator used an English Hammer machine, instead of a wooden mallet? I guess the question in all of this is, where do, or can, you draw the line? Best! Ben. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ben, I respectfully disagree. When you let robots do the work its like prints of art work. You can make 1,000,000 prints made by machine but the original hand built item is the real art. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 884 Registered: 6-2002 |
Maybe I'm in the minority, but it dosen't much matter to me wether the Art was done one-by-one on the assembley line, or once in CATIA (CAD/CAM/FEA software.) It is STILL ART! Robot welders don't ruin a car, far from it. They WILL NOT MOVE withought the direction of human beings, and they just render the curve in the artist's head more close to his vision, and more repeatably. It's like saying CGI (Computer Generated Imagrey) is not art, that the only real art is painting. All that said, it is still kind of cool to think that *someone* watched each bolt get tightened, and filled each body gap, etc in a 308. But the car is neither more nor less art for that sake. | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 436 Registered: 4-2003 |
I don't have any more pics of the Edonis. Click on the pic to go to the B.Engineering site, they should have some pictures. Try supercars.net, they should have some pics. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 314 Registered: 2-2003 |
Mark, any more pics of the Edonis? Damn, that car is the shiznit! | ||
| Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member Username: Chevarri Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2003 |
FYI,(If I remember correctly that is) that according to my walking encyclopedia of Porsche knowledge. RUF buys the chassis from Porsche and than assembles the car by hand(and any other custom/add on parts from RUF) in house. I myself find that hand built products by a skilled craftsman is something special. The fact that some one spent numerous hours BULDING not MAKING a final product, or contributing to it in a particular way is really unique in a way. Especically if it stands the test of time. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 185 Registered: 2-2003 |
"Regardless of how they are put together, Ferraris will always be an art to me. :-)" IMHO art has to be created by person not a robot.......but since even new Ferraris are still partly made by hand I would say new Ferraris are art.......Yet older Ferraris are definintly more deserving of that word. | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 652 Registered: 12-2002 |
Regardless of how they are put together, Ferraris will always be an art to me. :-) Research, applied technology, history, etc. are all incorporated into every car whether they're put together by hand or by machine. ...IMHO. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 183 Registered: 2-2003 |
yes, better quality, faster but not art. There is no reson to spend so much on a Ferrari if you don't think its art. You can spend less money for more performance, better reliability, etc. But when you buy a Ferrari you buy a masterpiece.......or it used to be that way. | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 649 Registered: 12-2002 |
It's simply technology and innovation being put to good use. If it can produce a better quality car, faster than before, then I'm all for it. "Money follows ideas." | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 180 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sunny, I share your disapointment. I believe Lambo and Ferrari should stick with there hand built cars made by skilled craftsmen. If they want to stay competitive they need more of a market nich. That nich should be there heritage HAND BUILT unique cars. They are going to lose that nich and people are going to wonder why they are paying so much for an assembly line cookie cutter car. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 879 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yes, I'm disappointed, but there are many if we look hard enough. On the bright side, it keeps costs down and allows more potential owners to experience what each marque is about. Hand assembled and some parts hand made are qualities I certainly look for in a car. Sunny | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 425 Registered: 4-2003 |
Not sure if you could call the Ariel Atom a car but I think it's street legal in the UK.  The Noble M12 GTO is a quick ride  B.Engineering is building a total of 21 Edonis  | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 424 Registered: 4-2003 |
How about these for exotics.... Skilled craftsmen built them by hand; large of ear and proboscis they are the very picture of impractical. These are not cold, calculated and technological; they exude the warmth and happiness inherent in the pink porcine form. Ask yourself, would a truly rational person drive these cars?   | ||
| Edgar Repko (Sonicmedia)
New member Username: Sonicmedia Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2003 |
isn't the Aston Martin v12 Vanquish hand built? | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 422 Registered: 4-2003 |
This thing isn't exactly a Mustang with body kit.  | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 421 Registered: 4-2003 |
Heck, I almost forgot about TVR.  Arash Farboud is certainly ambitious  | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 420 Registered: 4-2003 |
I know Lotus is a little mass market but the 340R is stripped down and impractical.  | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 419 Registered: 4-2003 |
There is no dearth of small manufacturers making extreme, impractical and stripped down cars if you do a little research. Heck some people even race these things. If you read Doug Hayashi's stories from the 2003 Open Track Challenge these cars do have some quirks. Click pic for mfg's site Mosler Photon - Street legal in US, ran in OTC  Radical - Street legal in UK, ran in OTC  This looks pretty practical but hey it's got 525 bhp, does 0-60 in under 4 and a top speed of 210+. It's British so you can always hope for "nuances that no rational person would put up with". Bristol Fighter  | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 3084 Registered: 12-2000 |
Damn right Patrick! | ||
| Patrick Denonville (Arizonaguy)
Member Username: Arizonaguy Post Number: 619 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ultima GTR, now theres a mean machine! | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 3082 Registered: 12-2000 |
Like I mentioned, your opinion might change when you see an assortment of the different kits available from England: Caterham Cars Specialist Sports Cars Ultima Sports Cars Ginetta Cars Hawk Cars (perfect recreations of the Cobra and the Lancia Stratos) | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 172 Registered: 2-2003 |
Patrick, I completly agree with you. Some robots do the work better than any man can. I just have this irational belief that older hand built cars have more personality. I just love driving a car that I would consider a work of art. How much went into it just amazes me. I lose that and more when a robot builds the car. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2003 |
Interesting point Peter. Never thought of that. But I hate kit cars they look and are so fake. I am really talking about the good old days with real hand buit cars. But none the less interesting point. | ||
| Patrick Denonville (Arizonaguy)
Member Username: Arizonaguy Post Number: 618 Registered: 4-2003 |
It doesn't bother me, it's the amount of effort that makes the quality shine through, and some robot made cars look like they were put together better than handbuilt cars. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 170 Registered: 2-2003 |
vipers are mabey 50% hand bulit (that figure is very generous). BUT THAT IS NOT MY QUESTION. I do not wish to get into an arguement about what cars are hand built and what cars are not.MY POINT: I think that there are very few (if any) hand built cars out there today. MY QUESTION: How do YOU feel about there being very few (if any) hand built cars being made today. Don't want any flames or to affend anyone. Just a little frustrated that my thread went the other way. Sorry if I am being to forword. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 3080 Registered: 12-2000 |
Dan, if you consider them "cars", kit cars would qualify... And I'm not talking about your assembly portion, but the actual parts of the kit are, I'd quess, 90% hand-built (fiberglass bodies are laid-up by hand, tubular chassis are assembled and welded by hand, etc...). Total it up and you have essentially, an all hand-built car. Don't be quick to put these cars down, there are many fine kits out there, especially from England. | ||
| Patrick Denonville (Arizonaguy)
Member Username: Arizonaguy Post Number: 617 Registered: 4-2003 |
Viper is hand built. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 169 Registered: 2-2003 |
Pagani has a mercades engine. Dodge viper no. panoz ford eng. Koenigsegg mabey I don't know. Still not my question. | ||
| Patrick Denonville (Arizonaguy)
Member Username: Arizonaguy Post Number: 615 Registered: 4-2003 |
Panoz, Dodge Viper, Pagani, Koenigsegg,etc... | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 416 Registered: 4-2003 |
Isn't the Pagani Zonda pretty close to handbuilt? The engine is a Merc V12 and IIRC at least a few magazines have called AMG engines handbuilt. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 168 Registered: 2-2003 |
What I consider hand built is something that is at least 80% hand built. Like a countach or a Ferrari Daytona. I don't think many car makers make hand built cars anymore. The ones that do seem to be in business one day and not the other. There are NOT REALLY any more hand built cars out there. I just wondered how people felt about that. THAT IS MY QUESTION | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 647 Registered: 12-2002 |
RUF is to Porsche what Saleen is to Ford. Koenig spent ~5 years just developing his car. I'm pretty sure it's hand built. What do you consider hand built? Body, engine, tranny, everything, what? | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 167 Registered: 2-2003 |
Koenigsegg does make there own cars. Not much history in them though. Ruf is a tunner. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 323 Registered: 5-2002 |
Doesn't Koenig just take other cars and make them faster? Ruf wouldn't be considered a handmade automaker woudl they? | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 166 Registered: 2-2003 |
Lotus uses tecnology as much as the next sports car manufacture. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 165 Registered: 2-2003 |
Panoz uses Ford engines(the heart needs to be hand built as well) Don't know much about Koenigsegg. The point was I think were at the end of an erra. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 323 Registered: 4-2002 |
Lotus...? | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 646 Registered: 12-2002 |
Aren't Panoz and Koenigsegg still hand built? | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 163 Registered: 2-2003 |
Do you think it is sad that there are virtually no hand built car manufactures out there? That even with companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini they are not using skilled craftsmen but rather use robots. Just think about it there are never going to be cars made that are incredibly impractical. All of them will be cold, calculated, technology filled cars. They won't be experiences any more just cars. We have lost the ability for cars to have nuances that no rational person would put up with. We have lost the exotic individuality in exotic cars. |