| Author | Message | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2597 Registered: 6-2001 |
If you truly believe that the right tells the truth, read this: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=6&u=/ap/20030917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/blix_iraq Art | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2594 Registered: 6-2001 |
With all of the commentary, we seem to be avoid the facts. Read the SF Chronicle article which sets forth the factual basis for the challenge. Despite the guarantees, California was going to have an election where 40 - 50k votes (proven by an unchallenged statistical analysist by compentent people) would not be counted. As we found in Florida, this isn't a good idea, and if it entails a slight delay so what? I think the issue is that the conservatives realize that there will be more voters in the general election, and therefore their potential is lower, and they are couching their complaints because this affects their scheme. There is no deal about waiting a month or two. The big deal is that more people will vote in the March election and the count will be more accurate, and that causes those who are attempting to slip this through some agony. Some people call this spin, I call it male bovine excrement. Art | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 615 Registered: 10-2001 |
Thomas, the claim isn't that minorites can't operate the machines. The claim is that the machines, even when operated properly from the user side, malfunction at a higher rate than other kinds of machines. Therefore more votes have to be tossed out and since many minorities have to use these machines while rich orange county residents use machines with lower problem rates, more minority votes are being lost. | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 401 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>As to the Rico statute useage, there was a vote to determine whether or not t take a position on that issue, and unfortunately it was inconclusive, i.e., the membership was widely divided.<< Art, this RICO issue really drives home the point that the ACLU is living in the past. (Forget the liberal bias issue. That is a given and ain't never gonna change.) Clarence Darrow died a long time ago. The biggest threat to our personal freedoms is not the 10 commandments. No, our current biggest threat is ambitious government lawyers who want to make a name for themselves. These are very bright, typically young, attorneys who either don't care or don't understand what they are doing to our personal freedoms. My first personal experience with this was when I was a young lad working for the IRS. It is a long story that doesn't bear repeating, but I was working on a tax case where the taxpayer stepped out of bounds. The US Attorney's office was ecstatic. They wired me up and told me to go back out and tell the taxpayer whatever lies he wanted to hear. When I protested that this seemed like dirty pool, the attorneys laughed and said that they loved entrapment cases because to pled entrapment, you must admit that you did the crime. Point being is the ACLU has trivialized itself into a corner. By aligning themseleves with the Democratic Party, they have lost all creditability. Too bad. Dale | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2003 |
Following the contested presidential election of 2000, the ACLU of Southern California filed a lawsuit against California officials on similar grounds and won. The state then entered into a consent decree, whereby election officials agreed to replace all �punch card� voting machines in use by the March 2004 primary election. Note that according to the consent decree, there were no *if, and, or, but* provisions for any emergency elections held before March, 2004 to have the new machines ready. That's the aclu's fault for not dotting the i's and crossing the t's before they sealed the deal. Therefore, the suit is without merit. But nevermind me, I don't have a law degree - I have common sense instead. From numerous aclu sites: ("" are mine) The continued use of the �punch card� machines will needlessly and unlawfully disenfranchise "African-American, Latino, and Asian-American voters" in counties where such machines are still in use, the ACLU said in legal papers. But if a recall election takes place in October 2003, as many as 8 million voters could be "at the mercy" of the "defective" �VotoMatic� or �Pollstar� machines which use �punch card� technology, the ACLU warned. At least six counties in the state (Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Diego, Santa Clara, Solano, and Mendocino) are certain to use �punch card� voting machines if the recall election takes place as scheduled on October 7, 2003. - My household is curious as to why the ACLU is under the assumption that Minorities can't get the concept of punching holes. I'm white, my fiancee and her 20-year-old son whom I share my life and air with are both black. As the 20-year-old put it - "Why is the aclu so condescending towards those who they claim they're defending?" Bonus: October 15, 1997 artcle from America's Finest News Source | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 613 Registered: 10-2001 |
Mitch and Nebula, your premise is wrong. The ACLU sued in 2001 to have the punch card machines replaced in California. http://www.freep.com/news/metro/dicker17_20030917.htm | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1052 Registered: 4-2002 |
1. ACLU never complained about punch-card ballots in California during the 5 generations it has been used. Correct 2. The ACLU had no problem with punch-card ballots in 98 and 02 when Davis won the elections. Correct 3. The ACLU had no problem with the fact that California was going to use punch-card ballots in the 2006 election. Correct 4. The ACLU is now whining like a .02 cent Road-Whore about punch-card ballots, because Davis is likely to loose. No, because after the Florida fiasco the Supreme Court rulling changed the status quo with respect to punch cards. | ||
| John Do'h (Combover)
Junior Member Username: Combover Post Number: 95 Registered: 8-2003 |
CROSSPOST, don't you love that  It was in California I know that, but forgot which city. They had just changed the physical requirements for firefighters and were criticizing the "fireman's carry" as unnecessary and outdated based on macho ideas about firefighters. They then demonstrated the "new" method wherein they drag people by their ankles, that allowed smaller, weaker persons to be firemen. I was like WTF! | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1517 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh my God! The visual of that kills me! The 90 pound firefighter holding the ankles of a big guy, dragging him down a flight of stairs while his head is banging on each step! Minor smoke inhalation will turn into massive head injuries! What spin would the wimp firefighter put on that report? ( ! ) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6421 Registered: 8-2002 |
Um... that's a huge problem... | ||
| John Do'h (Combover)
Junior Member Username: Combover Post Number: 94 Registered: 8-2003 |
PeterS: No, I think you missed mine. I do NOT want to be pulled from a building, especially because I have a large flight of stairs. This is a case where the procedures of firefighting are being compromised to fit an agenda. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1516 Registered: 1-2003 |
John..I re-read your post. You ARE on the same page with me on that issue...Sorry. I have met a few firefighters that work in San Francisco. They have extremely grave concerns regarding the ability of a few people that have been added to their staff to carry out the job. One of them told me 'its like being in a war zone with someone that does not know how to fire a gun to cover you'. Pretty sad if you ask me. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1515 Registered: 1-2003 |
John..Can the 90 pound firefighter 'drag' a 325 pound man out of that burning building? I trust you did not miss my point. | ||
| John Do'h (Combover)
Junior Member Username: Combover Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2003 |
"making sure that your local fire department gives preferential treatment to a 90 pound Filipino female firefighter that could not carry you out of a burning building, and on and on and on." What is more absurd is that one of the bases for changing the standard is the idea that people don't need to be carried out of a burning building. Silly us, that just puts your head higher and closer/within the smoke. The NEW preferred way is to have the victim lay down, grab them by the ankles and pull them out of the building. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6414 Registered: 8-2002 |
LOL, PeterS, that little tid bit has been circulating this board more than a DES post-rant...! | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1514 Registered: 1-2003 |
Nebula..To augment Ben C's post where you slam Art Chambers, think about this: Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Fcuknig amzanig huh? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6387 Registered: 8-2002 |
LOL, Bob... | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2002 |
Forgive Mark Father, for he knows not what he has done. JC | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1512 Registered: 1-2003 |
WM Hart..You are dead on. When the ACLU started, they really were out to do some good. This non-elected group has really gotten out of control though. You are correct about their support of NAMBLA. In addition, they like kicking God out of our schools, supporting illegals, making sure that your local fire department gives preferential treatment to a 90 pound Filipino female firefighter that could not carry you out of a burning building, and on and on and on. This group has been in the forefront to see that the values and morals of this great country can go straight down the toilet in a swift manner. I'm not even going to touch on the Boyscout issue! In parallel to their support of people who rip crosses off of the graves of our fallen soldiers, I feel this group is starting to wake up the left by making them aware of what the ACLU has actually done to their country. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 6358 Registered: 8-2002 |
That's a quality photo right there... | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1637 Registered: 12-2001 |
Actually, the ACLU is a strong supporter of knob-gobblin'. They represented NAMBLA. But, of course, everybody has rights, and who knows, if they don't stand up for the right to molest young boys, you may be next. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2591 Registered: 6-2001 |
MarkPDX: I'll get you for that photo. LMAF You made Marty look like a good Christ, wonder what he has to say about that? As to the ACLU's position: no one challenged the 2002 race. In this race there were people who challenged the race. Read the case: the analysis of the problem with the punch card voting machines is that they tend to drop a percentage of the votes (in excess of other means). 46% of California's population uses them. Of the counties which use them, they have a larger proportion of lower income voters, i.e., minorities, etc. those likely to vote democratic. The net effect of these machines, which was documented in this election is that their is a certain bias in the location and useage of these machines.. A far better analysis of the effect of these machines was done by Gerald Ulman, a law professor in Santa Clara in the Chronicle today. The link is: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/09/16/ED287503.DTL As to the Rico statute useage, there was a vote to determine whether or not t take a position on that issue, and unfortunately it was inconclusive, i.e., the membership was widely divided. Art | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 393 Registered: 4-2003 |
Art, I think that Nebulaclass et al do have a point. It seems like the ACLU does have a problem with selective hearing in this case. Nebulaclass et at, Remember that Art is a trial attorney. Words are his weapons of mass destruction. If you have ever been on the witness stand (I used to do expert witness work), you will understand what I mean. So try and be more precise in your questions to him and remember that he will and does say things that are designed to provoke you. That is all... Dale | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2003 |
Mark - LOL, Did you doctor up that photo or is that really a veggie burger Art is eating? | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 901 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hey Mike, tried turning off the random thought generator once in the 2nd grade, but it nearly killed me. Seems we've formed some sort of simbiotic relationship. It's way too late to turn back now! I'm pretty bad with the spelling actually, it gets worse if or when I get passionate about something... (so on FERRARI chat, I'm pretty much screwed I try for at least competent grammar, but admit I often fail there too. Nebula- Oh boy, let me see, I'm not sure where I stand on abortion, but I am probally for it. I'm anti-death penalty in it's flawed innocent-killing current state, but pro execution in principle if the system was not corrupt. I'm against gun-control. Infact I would like to see more responsible and TRAINED citizens own AR-15s. I'm pro big buisness, and pro small buisness. I'm for TRUE racial equality (which means people are people, not blacks have as many jobs as mexicans, or whatever. That we really look at each other as a human being, and that's it.) I am NOT for forcing any of this with 'affirmative action' laws, that I see as still raceism, with the polarity flipped. I'm for minimal government that's nessicary to get the job done, and buts out otherwise. I'm for legalization of maraiujana growth for consumption ONLY (not for sale, kills the drug trade now), and making Tobaco illegal (for HAZMAT reasons! ;) for keeping all the hienous stuff (heroin, coke, etc) illegal. I'm pro environment, but not to the point where it becomes zealotry. I'm for as little taxation as absolutely possible, gov't wastes money, cappitolist economy is simply more efficent. I'm for serious healthcare reform, but not government subsidization of it. Wonder where I stand? | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 480 Registered: 4-2003 |
I can see it now...  | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 100 Registered: 8-2003 |
Last thought - and it is getting late. Ben you are probably right. We all probably would get along in person. We have the love of Ferraris' in common. Sometimes it is easy to lose context in a chat and a person's real traits are often obfuscated by the written word. Ferrari to all! | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 99 Registered: 8-2003 |
Ben it is an interesting thought. Under Davis CA did not have funding to update the voting system in 6 counties and now this lack of updating is being used to prevent the recall vote. | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 98 Registered: 8-2003 |
Ben - that was one discursive post. Don't be afraid to turn off the random thought generator and be a bit more cohesive buddy. And speaking of spelling and grammer thank goodness Amir, the spelling and grammer monitor of this chat board, didn't see your post. I think you set a single post record. Sunny - nice post (LOL) | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 478 Registered: 11-2002 |
It's funny Ben, because I have no idea where to classify myself, either! I'm pretty anti-religion (not that I don't respect anyone's beleifs, just anti for me and for governance), pro-abortion, pro-small government, undecided on drug legalization, pro-big business, and otherwise completely confused! Another funny thing is that if Art and I did meet, I'm sure we'd get along fine, because aside from some basic political differences, I agree with a lot of what he says about religion and other issues. Go figure. Perhaps Art and I can sit down for a glass of Macallan 18, with you as a mediator. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 895 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mike- that's intresting. You have to wonder just how "inefficent" he was being... When does it become "intentionally and selectively inefficent" ? When does it become purposely keeping your opposers down? | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 894 Registered: 6-2002 |
Nebula- quick tip (if I can make one withought sounding condescending here.) I don't think Art has any issues with you, perhaps with some of your words though. Seperate the two, don't take it personally. Hell, he's probally goading you a bit to provoke some intresting dialouge. Instead of going off, stand up to the challenge, tell him, articulitely, why you know what freedom is, and why you think this ACLU thing is hogwash, and why he should perhaps re-examine his stance on the issue. Beat him at his own game. Art is not above growing and changing his views, or practices. I don't honestly think any of us are. I bet you two would, well, maybe not like each other, but come to a mutual respect of each other, if you were to meet in person. Back on topic, I agree, the whole thing does stink, pretty clear they're selectively bringing up issues. I guess it's just not new news. PPS: with all this talk of liberal vs conservitive, etc. I always wondered where I stand. Hell, I've forgotten what either 'side' actually stands for now, everyone I ask gives me a different story. | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 97 Registered: 8-2003 |
Rich --- In this case, the ACLU is active because they want to make sure all democrats who vote will be counted. ---- Wouldn't such an action assume that only the democrats couldn't figure out how punch cards work? Not quite Rich - the real reason is that the ACLU and the rest of the liberals do not want a vote at all. This is a horrible attempt to derail this vote by liberals that do not like the thought of turning over the Governorship to a Republican. This is obvious to everyone (except Art). The whole reason the 6 counties in question do not have electronic ballots is the fact the Davis squandered so much money and blew the budget in the first place. Under his leadership there was insufficient funding and leadership to get this done. He is now hoping his inefficiency and poor leadership may actually save him. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 892 Registered: 6-2002 |
Nebula- another thing, if you were attempting to make some sort of point with your slam on Art for his spelling, you made it poorly. You then proceeded to slam Rich for making the same observations about your spelling... All I got out of it was petty personal attacks, though that may not be what you intended, it is what I saw (for your reference.) | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 476 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ben - I agree. The ACLU has done good, and it, like many other political organizations, do serve a purpose. While I may not agree with a lot of what quite a few orgs do, I do realize that without pushing the 90% that only a few agree with, the 10% that just about everyone agrees with would not pass. I just don't agree with the stance they are taking on this issue. I feel that if they really wanted to push for civil rights on this issue, they should have stepped in a year ago. If the ACLU came out and said "We don't like the recall, so we are doing this action," I wouldn't like it any more, but I would at least *respect* them for being honest about their intentions. The same goes for Art. And I would LOVE to like Art. Really, I would. I almost want to look up to him, seeing as he's a successful lawyer, and that's what I aspire to. I just find that often, he's unwilling to change any point of view, or to admit when he or an ideal he beleives in might not be right all of the time. That, and the fact that he doesn't seem to like me at all makes any civil relationship with him kinda hard. Oh well, you can't please all the the people all the time.... | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 890 Registered: 6-2002 |
And surprise, surprise, nothing is as simple as it seems. Welcome to the real world. The ACLU is not made up of sin-free nuns, who want nothing more than to protect each and every little guy. And surprise, they're not a wacked-out conspiricy group ploting to overthrow the free world either. Like any competent lawyer, I might add, they are using whatever points they can logically and soundly make, to furthur their cause. Which is protecting civil liberties when they can, and when it will insure their survival to do so. (can't well protect people if you're disbanded now, can you?) Granted, I don't agree with many of their stances, and this one is pretty obviously only coming up because of the sides of the conflict that is occuring. But grow up man! (this from a 22 year old now.) They've done some good, they've done some things that should be looked at. Personally, I don't trust ANY political activist group!!! Surprise! Dig deep enough, and they are ALL working some sort of adjenda or power-play. That's what a political activist group DOES for christ's sake! PS: 2 cent road-whore, and gobble my knob, funny, heh. PPS: watch the slams on Art, you could learn a lot just by sitting near him in a resturant (some of his talent would probally waft over.) | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 473 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter - I generally tend to do a good job of separating my chat room life from my professional life. But thanks for the vote of confidence! | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1511 Registered: 1-2003 |
Neb...With your temper, I can only hope that when and if you become a lawyer, you pack for many overnight jail stays for contempt! I'm not sure I would want your mouth to represent me! | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 893 Registered: 2-2003 |
Corvus brachyrhynchos, the American Crow  Description Distinguishing Features - Completely black with greenish or violet reflections, most pronounced on back wings and tail. Male and female indistinguishable but female is slightly smaller. Uneditible by F-Chat liberals and sometimes found served in heated arguments to one's opponent. Size - 43 - 53 cm (17.25 - 21.25 in). Habitat Widespread; prefers open spaces for foraging and woodlots for nesting. Mythological bird found in nearly all states except California. Must be imported. Rural areas with fields bordered by woods is their favourite habitat, as are garbage dumps, oil fields, and mobile bio-weapons labs. Notes The American Crow is often mistaken for the Common Raven but is much smaller. It is omniverous and will eat practically anything and be consumed by most political affiliations. The Crow is not held in high regard by liberals as it has a tendency to cause acceptance of another view point if digested. The call of the crow is a simple, scratchy "re-Caw". | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 472 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rich - I don't mind that the ACLU is biased. I just want them, and the likes of Art, to stop f*ckin' around and admit that it ain't civil liberties they are after, but a LIBERAL AGENDA. If the ACLU, and Art, were out for civil liberties, they would have cried just as loud about punch-card ballots with as small a margin as was seen in Davis v. Simon. You hit the nail on the head - the ACLU didn't defend Simon because he LOST, and they liked that outcome. Admit it Art! ADMIT IT! | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 607 Registered: 10-2001 |
No, of course the ACLU wouldn't fight for the republicans after something like the simon v. davis election being close. Because despite being the party of wealth and industry, and despite the possibly faulty machines being in poor and traditionally democratic areas, simon lost. In this case, the ACLU is active because they want to make sure all democrats who vote will be counted. Oh my god, they're biased! Yep. Who cares. The right is certainly welcome to form their own organization and make their own arguments in front of the court. I'd take "liberal liberties" over whatever is left after the patriot act 1 & 2 anyday... | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 96 Registered: 8-2003 |
Nebula Class - your points are right on target. The candy a$$ liberals are grasping at straws now - anything to stop the recall. Do you think the liberals (including those on this board) would be chiming in if there was a Republican Governor in the process of being recalled? If the situation were reversed and Republicans were trying to stop a recall of a Republican Governor the protest bus would be full and halfway to Sacramento right now. Although most of the passengers would not know a thing about the facts (it would just give them something to do)yet they would be claiming this punch card issue is an "attack against freedom" and a "right wing conspiracy." P.S. Dean - I think you have it backwards. Conservative is the dirty word not liberal. Nebula has it right, the classic defense mechanism of the modern liberal is to turn any questioning of liberal beliefs, actions and thougths into an attack on freedom. For my Republican friends - a recommended read: Robert Bork's "Slouching Towards Gomorrah - Modern Liberalism and the American Decline." | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 471 Registered: 11-2002 |
"In this case, Palintiffs allege that the fundamental right to have votes counted in this special recall election is infringed because the pre-scored punchcard voting systems used in some California counties are intractably afflicted with technologic dyscalculia." Art - why the hell wasn't this argument used in Nov 2002? Why? ANSWER THAT FUGGIN QUESTION PLEASE. "Thus, the effect of using punchcard voting systems in some, but not all, counties, is to discriminate based on the basis of geographic residence." Bull$hit. Pure bull$hit. The ACLU is claiming that the state is "purposefully" discriminating against people who live in poor areas. Why would a LIBERAL STATE GOV do this? Straws, Art. Straws. This is a crock of stinky poop. Art, the only reason this wasn't filed in Nov 2002 is because the ACLU liked the outcome of the election. | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 390 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>gooble my knob<< ROTFLMSAO Haven't heard that one in a long time. Glad to see that certain, uh, traditions are continuing from one generation to the next. While I agree with Nebulaclass, I have grown very apathetic about the ACLU over the years. This is just same old, same old, knee jerk ACLU position. They are very predictable, just all the rest of the so called avocacy groups on the left and right. Yawn. Art, you probably follow this closer than I do. But what position did the ACLU take when the feds tried to convict the Pro-Lifers under the RICO statutes? Don't get me wrong. The extreme Pro-Life folks are too wacky for me. But RICO! Where's the same concern for freedom here? Gooble my knob... cracks me up Dale | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2589 Registered: 6-2001 |
The actual decision: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0356498p.pdf Take a look at it. Art | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 468 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rich - The state had no plans on replacing every polling station in california with non-punch-card booths/ballots by the 2006 gubernatorial election. This was stated by state officials months (if not years) ago. When this was stated, the ACLU did not have any complaints, as the state gave proper explanations as to why the system would not be completely overhauled by 06. What gets my goat is that, if the ACLU was ok with punch-cards in '06, why the complaints now? Also, if the ACLU is out for the "little man" without a political agenda, why didn't they file any lawsuits after the 02 election? If I recall, the difference between Simon and Davis was less than 5% statewide. Why wasn't the margin of error of punch-cards fought against then? | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 467 Registered: 11-2002 |
Craig - The ACLU manipulated this case from square one in order to get it to the 9th Circuit Court, where the ACLU knew it had a chance of winning the case. This "court" is notorious in regards to pushing as liberal an agenda as possible. The ACLU wanted it to get as far as it did. Little does the ACLU know that the 9th Circuit Court has ZERO jurisdiction over state elections, and while the three-ring-panel of judges may think it has the power to practice judicial review, unfortunately only the Supreme Court is able to. Bottom line - the Supreme Court will overthrow the decision, the ACLU and Art will scream right-wing conspiracy, Davis will be recalled, and life will go on. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 605 Registered: 10-2001 |
I don't think anyone will deny that the ACLU has a liberal slant. And I don't think anyone will deny that the Republicans, in as much as they can be said to believe in civil liberties at all, certainly have a much different slant on them. So what. The ACLU made an argument, a court agreed, and another court has a chance to disagree should they choose. Long live the republic. Isn't one of the points in delaying the recall that the punch-card machines are scheduled to be replaced prior to the March primaries? If so, I guess I don't see what Nebula is talking about in regards to '06. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 466 Registered: 11-2002 |
To Art and Dave - My slam on his typing skills wasn't a serious slam. I was just trying to point out that attempting to decide one's usefulness as a lawyer based on a political stance is as inappropriate as deciding one's usefulness as a lawer based on typing skills. Lord knows I'm just as guilty at commiting typos as anyone else. Just to clear the water... | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 202 Registered: 9-2002 |
does anybody on this planet believe that the ACLU would be sponsoring lawsuit after lawsuit if it was a republican that was being recalled the ACLU filed suit after suit untill they found a liberal activist judge that would play along with them what we need to do is figure out how to get these activist judges out of there lifetime appointments Art, maybe you could help, how do we get rid of judges that no longer care about the law but are just interested in furthering a political agenda | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2814 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have to agree with Nebula's posts 100% here (except for the needless slams on Art's typing skills). The ACLU's late entry into this is anything but altruistic, but Art's extreme partisan slant prevents him from seeing this. Art, good luck in your trial. Racing school was EXCELLENT!!!!! | ||
| Dean (Deanger)
Junior Member Username: Deanger Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2003 |
Correct me if I am wrong, but the ACLU was not aware of the punch card problem PRIOR to the infamous presidential election of '02. Moreover, Davis DOES NOT WANT a delay in the election. He feels hs has momentum and could defeat the recall as scheduled. Also, Since when did Liberal become such a dirty word in this country? Seems like for a while now people throw it around without any actual understanding of what a Liberal is. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ok come on, Art! You are telling me that the ACLU is protecting civil liberties by halting the recall because polling places are different? How in the heck is that defending civil liberties? I got my recall notice last week, giving me FIVE WEEKS to find my polling place and to get transportation to and from squared away. FIVE WEEKS in advance, Art. Are you telling me that the ACLU needs to step in and hamper a process in favor of saving people too lazy to plan a vote FIVE WEEKS IN ADVANCE? Gimme a break. If this was a republican governor being recalled, you'd be up in arms. The claim that the 9th Circuit Court has made in defense of it's decisioon has nothing to do with civil liberties, but is rather a statement of foreign policy and an attempt to practice judicial review. Plain and simple. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2002 |
Art - do you truly think the ACLU is doing this in favor of keeping liberties unencumbered? Like I predicted, you have yet to answer my question, so again I'll ask it. If the ACLU is doing this to uphold freedom, why did they do nothing in 98, 02, and why were they ok with punch-card ballots in 2006? WHY? WHY? It's typical for a liberal to attack a conservative by saying conservatives are against freedom. The truth is, this argument has nothingto do with freedom, and you know it. Regardless, either answer my question or back off and continue to insult me. Your choice here will speak volumes. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2588 Registered: 6-2001 |
As to the election being held up: Remember that only about 1/3 of the normally open polling places will be open this time because of budget constraints. This makes the entire process different, with people voting in places where they are not used to voting, etc. The effect of the lowered polling places has changed the complection of this election. I'd suggest that those didn't like the decision, that they read the reasoning behind it. Interestingly the basis for the decision was Gore's decision from the US Supreme Court over the Florida mess. Art Art | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2587 Registered: 6-2001 |
PeterS: I'm currently awaiting a trial court, and I saw what Nebula wrote, and frankly it upset me, that someone who would attempt to join my profession would title something like this, and would write as he did. It indicated to me that he had a clear misunderstanding of what civil liberties are, and who needs their liberties protected. Do I make gramatical errors, and spelling errors here? You bet. Computers have screwed up my ability to spell and proper word selection. I've gotten lazy, beccause the word processing that I use does it for me. I guess I would draft these on Wordperfect, and then put them into the post, as Rob Lay does. I confess, I'm too lazy to do that. Having said that, my errors are relatively simple, they're mechanical. Nebula's errors appear to be those of character. That's a shame. Art | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 463 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter - Perhaps you missed the part where Art called into questions my qualifications as a future lawyer. I have no idea how good of a lawyer Art is, and Art has no idea whether or not I know what freedom is. I simply made as stupid an assertion as he did, in order to make a point. And FREEDOM is not in question here. Blatant manipulation of the recall by using the 9th Circuit Court does NOT constitute freedom. Had the ACLU made the same arguments before this recall about the punch card ballots, I would be OK with the decision. It's the fact that the ACLU opted to argue the punch-cards when a democratic governor was in danger of a recall that shows that this is about PARTISAN POLITICS, not civil liberties. And keep in mind that Davis only beat Simon by 5% or so....which SHOULD have alerted the ACLU to the fact that the margin of error for the punch-card ballots might have incorrectly scewed the election. Of course, they did not step in then. Because a Dem won, plain and simple. This is FAR from about FREEDOM. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1509 Registered: 1-2003 |
Nebula...First off, everybody makes grammatical errors. I am probably as busy as Art is and I make them all the time. Why have you not busted me for my type-O�s on posts you have read? Typing on forums such as FChat is not a spelling contest. Art made a prudent observation regarding how you presented your general knowledge base. Your comment stating that Art is a 'piss-poor lawyer' is a blatant attack on a respected member. You have only shown your ignorance to all. In my opinion, that was extremely uncalled for on this forum and you owe Art an apology. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 461 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks for pointing out a grammatical error, Rich. That strengthens your argument SO much more than any points you could have made against the recall, which you opted not to make. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 460 Registered: 11-2002 |
Funny, Art *IS* a lawyer and consistantly confuses "there", "their", and "they're." Oops. Look Art - I'm all for freedom. If you had read my post WITHOUT some liberal slant, you would have noticed that the ACLU is NOT LOOKING FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES. They did not complain that the punch-card ballots would be used in 2006, nor did they complain about they punch-card ballots in 2002 OR 1998. If it didn't bother them in 98 or 2002, and if they didn't mind that it was to be used in 2006, why ••••• now? Because they are scared that the liberal left might lose their power base in Cal. Of course, you won't answer the questions I've asked. You'll just choose to ignore the facts that I've pointed out. And in the future, I'll ensure that all reasons why you are a piss-poor lawyer are pointed out to the fellow chatters here. Things like blantantly stupid grammatical errors. Ok? Thanks. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1508 Registered: 1-2003 |
Art..Would the ACLU scenario be just like the Sierra Club, i.e.: The Sierra Club started out as a very protective and respected group. It has transformed into a group that has done more to ruin our timberlands than to help them? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2586 Registered: 6-2001 |
It's too bad that those who probably need the liberties the most, critize those who protect those right the most. Remember who fought for the Nazi's right to demonstrate, who fought for the rights of the unpopular to speak, to avoid being discriminated against? Of course the unpopular causes are those which the ACLU fights. If its popular, there'd be no need. Amazing: Nebula wants to be a lawyer, and apparently doesn't understand the concept of freedom. Art | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 604 Registered: 10-2001 |
I wouldn't say "davis is likely to loose[sic]". The polls right now show the recall almost 50-50. This whole thing is ridiculous to me. Now the courts are heavily involved and its only going to get more ridiculous. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1507 Registered: 1-2003 |
Its funny that nobody ever elected the ACLU to such a powerful position! | ||
| John Do'h (Combover)
Junior Member Username: Combover Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2003 |
This just in from the most the court of appeals that is overturned the most: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97360,00.html | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 459 Registered: 11-2002 |
1. ACLU never complained about punch-card ballots in California during the 5 generations it has been used. 2. The ACLU had no problem with punch-card ballots in 98 and 02 when Davis won the elections. 3. The ACLU had no problem with the fact that California was going to use punch-card ballots in the 2006 election. 4. The ACLU is now whining like a .02 cent Road-Whore about punch-card ballots, because Davis is likely to loose. What a bunch of pu$$ies. Civil liberties, my a$$. Liberal Liberties is more like it. |