| Author | Message | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1599 Registered: 1-2003 |
The union issues mentioned are a bit mute. If the B3 listened to what the public wanted, they would have done better sooner and price would not have been a key issue. People will drive what they want to at any price they can tolorate as a monthly paytment. In parallel, though the first Japanese cars were BUTT UGLY, they displayed extremely good engineering. They caught up with good looks in time to kick Detroits butt. Read Delorian's 'On a clear day, you can see General Motors'. He had vision from the begining on what GM should have done. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 970 Registered: 2-2002 |
Here's a link to an article on a new book, "The End Of Detroit: How The Big Three Lost Their Grip On The American Car Market", that claims to answer all of your questions: http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0310/12/d01-294968.htm | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 683 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey William, In 1998, I think 98 anyways, Ford made the "Super Stallion" concept Mustang. It had a blown 5.4l DOHC V8 that ran on E-85 and produced 540hp at the wheels. It also had some sensors that could detect whether or not E-85 or pump-gas was being used, and if it was pump-gas, the timing was dropped and the car only (ONLY) produced 360 or something like that. Too bad it never went into production, or else you'd have your alternative fuel 500hp monster! | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 967 Registered: 2-2002 |
I've seen a few C6 caravans driving the country roads here in Michigan. They look like a C5 with exposed headlights. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3312 Registered: 2-2001 |
Now that Bob Lutz is at GM I think their products should improve dramatically. The new Pontiac Solstice is very nice and I have heard that Lutz totally revamped the new Corvette C6. He basically told the engineers & designers to start all over again & to drop weight. so it will be a rebodied, lighter & more powerful C5. Sounds good, I DO hope its more attractive than the C5. Ford has the new GT coming out & the new Mustang both of which are cool. Chrysler which is really a german Co now has the new Viper which is way cool but not as attractive as the outgoing model Now if the US Cos would just build me a 500 hp hybrid sports car with sexy swoopy looks I would be Sooo happy  | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 297 Registered: 5-2003 |
3 words......and oh so true in the case of GM...... "Badge Engineering" and unions. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3309 Registered: 2-2001 |
The 40s Bentley Continental was nice, I believe Figoni did at least 1 or 2 Bentleys which were nice too. I'd take a 30s Supercharged Duesy coupe, an Auburn Boat tail roadster, & a Delahaye by Figoni & Falaschi | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 965 Registered: 2-2002 |
Yeah, coachbuilding was prevalent in the luxury car market back then, but I'm not so sure about Bentley. I've never seen a Bentley from W.O.'s era that didn't look like a freight train with pneumatic tires, have you? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3304 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bill, back in the 20s everybody had bodies from outside manufacturers, Bugatti, RR, Bentley, Delahaye. Delage Figoni Falaschi was my fave of the old school designers When you ordered your Duesy you could go to the factory and order just about any body style you wanted. & Ferrari owners think they are cool cus they can get custom seats LOL | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2966 Registered: 1-2002 |
SRT Mike, I agree with you. That is why I gave 2 reasons for the decline. The other was the companies themselves turning out cheesy crap. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 960 Registered: 2-2002 |
William: I love Auburns, Cord and Duesenbergs (as well as Packards, which were top notch cars during that period). It was truly an era of style and performance when American cars stood head and shoulders with the rest of the world. An interesting thing about that period, though, is that many of those cars were in fact kit cars of sorts. Auburns and Cords used Lycoming engines, which were available to any auto manufacturer who wanted to buy them. Sure, E. L. Cord eventually bought Lycoming, but he didn't fold them into A-C-D, he continued business as usual. During the past ten years or so the American car companies have been promoting a return to those days. Ford spun off Visteon, GM did the same, and as a result they have lost some control over their content. I'm not sure that's a good idea in the long run. During that golden age styling was king. Custom coach builders created virtual one-offs for the rich and famous. Auburns and Cords, which weren't coachbuilt, emphasised style over substance, to a degree, and had world class designers like Alan Leamy and Gordon Buehrig who created dream cars that are loved and revered to this day. As you point out, the fifties and sixties were the Billy Mitchell era when the annual model change created something new, different and exciting for people to clamor for. Today it's all about brand identity. I say get daring and bring back regular styling changes, spice up the market and let it rip. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3299 Registered: 2-2001 |
I think the illness started during the great depression of 1927. Thats what killed off our greatest Cos, Duesenburg, Cord, Auburn. of course they were the F40, F50, & Enzo of their day and the prices reflected that. All the biggest movie stars & Captains of Inudusty had Duesies & an RR was second best Those were the days. Then came the 50s when US cars were great once again but great for being ostentatious & far out in design, not really for technical merit, In the 60s American Muscle cars ruled although quality was starting to slip because the Cos started caring more about proifts than quality. The oil crisis of the 70s was almost like 1927 all over again & as we all know in the 70s US cars really suckked. Now the thing about the Jaoanese is that while the US was trying to cope with the oil crisis the Japanese began DUMPING cars in the US and taking substantial Losses in exchange for winning a lot of market share. I studied this when I did my MBA. The US is a capitalist economy but the Japanese are mercantilists so they saw no problem with dumping, taking losses & winning huge market share quickly. The US wised up to this strategy far too late. In the 80s US cars slowly started to get better & the Japanese who had won huge market share started to raise their prices to make huge profits instead of taking more losses. In the 90s US cars once again started to reach for the days of the 70s. We got the Corvette ZR1, the Viper, and more cool cars. Now we have the Saleen S7 which is probably a serious contender against Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, or whoever you want to put them against. I havent driven an S7 but i'd love to. I would hope that Saleen has brought US cars back to the standard of a Dusie that can go toe to toe with the best in the world with no excuses | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 956 Registered: 2-2002 |
I agree that Japanese cars have an aura of quality that sets them apart, but what is the reality? Hondas have MAJOR transmission problems; so bad that Honda has retroactively warranteed its transmissions for 100,000 miles. My Odyssey has had two transmissions in 60k, and my Acura TL-S just had a transmission replaced at 35K. It's happening to thousands of cars, and the frustrating thing is that the replacement units fail just as easily as the originals. If this were GM there would be front page stories in the New York Times and WSJ, but Honda seems to be able to sweep it under the rug. I also find it interesting how people react differently to cars from different countries. Import owners seem to follow manufacturer recommended services gladly, whereas American car owners seem to neglect their cars; and I've seen people happily spend two-to-three hundred dollars on regularly scheduled maintenance for their import and then the same people drive their American car 15,000 miles between oil changes and neglect even the most basic service. Go figure. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 375 Registered: 12-2002 |
Dave, I would agree that quality on Japanese cars is by far the highest and that they don't suffer from union 'issues'. However I still disagree with you that unions are causing the US car makers to fall from grace. I can't think of many American cars I would even want to own. I like the new Crossfire, but I just don't think the car would hold up well over even 3 years, so I wouldn't buy it. I know most Japanese cars would hold up, but they don't (to me) seem exciting, save for a few. German and Italian cars seem to be the exception. And both of these countries seriously suffer from union BS, some worse than the US BS. Unions are a contributing factor, but not maybe so much as folks think simply because other places with worse union conditions don't suffer as badly as the US makers do. I guess what I am really getting at is that the unions affect price and quality negatively, but the US cars are also *severely* lacking in design and engineering. That isn't a factor of the unions in my experience. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 955 Registered: 2-2002 |
I could write for hours on this subject. Unions are a problem. Do you realize that the auto union contracts require that a company pay a laid off union member 80% of his regular pay? Imagine that. You lay people off to cut costs and only save 20%, but worse yet, your workers have very little incentive to stay on the job. I disagree with Mark. I realize he only moved to Florida in the past year, so his Michigan experience is rather recent, but I think what he says about Michigan is pretty out of date. People in Michigan haven't ostracized or vandalized drivers of foreign vehicles for twenty years. I'm the son of a Ford engineer and I worked in the auto industry but I have owned BMWs, Acuras and Hondas. Some of what he says is true but its not as pervasive as he makes it out to be. It's true that we get great deals on American cars, so we buy more of them, but do we love them? Hardly. I think the various employee plans have more effect on the Detroit dealers because they don't have to work to sell a car. Eighty to ninety percent of their sales come from employees, their relatives or friends, so they don't have to work to sell cars. High level execs get special treatment from their companies and dealers. Because they have heavily subsidized lease plans and they don't have to put up with the normal service worries either because the company takes care of it or the dealer gives them special treatment. They don't understand what a consumer goes through when he owns their products. American auto execs are NOT enthusiasts. Certainly there are a few, expecially designers and some engineers, but the average car exec could care less if he is selling refrigerators or sports cars. That said, those who are car guys really want to produce great stuff but the bean counters destroy everthing. In Detroit the suppliers are looked down upon. The basic philosophy is "Give it to me free this year and drop your price 5% next year." If your suppliers aren't making money they can't provide you with quality parts. They have to cut somewhere to comply with the outrageous pricing demands and the consumer pays. The process for designing and building cars is flawed and rife with inefficiencies. The business culture rewards short term fixes and cost savings rather than engineering excellence or product excellence. I've often said that at Ford they build careers, not cars. The Whiz Kids who took the company over after WWII instituted a culture that fast tracked promising people. As a result, it's rare for some (especially marketing and sales people) to stay in one position more than 18 months. If they don't move within that time their career is in the dumper. Just when they are finally learning their jobs they are moving to a new area. That attitude doesn't help make better products, it does just the opposite. And on, and on, and on... | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 671 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sorry Omar - I misinterpreted your post. No hard feelings! | ||
| Ryan Alexander (Ryalex)
Junior Member Username: Ryalex Post Number: 134 Registered: 8-2003 |
I think it's being too into the business and $$ and not making cars people wanted! Mercedes is being run down by the same MBA cost-cutting culture right now. When I was in undergrad with a few extra bucks and looked for a good reliable car, I ended up with a late 80's MB 190E 2.3... it ran hard every single day and with some care only depreciated $200 over two years! I just handed my family hand-me-down 1990 325i to my brother, and it's running strong with 240,000 miles. Aside from a Z06 or Ford GT, I'd NEVER buy an American car (admittedly doing okay with trucks). Unfortunately, in Canada American cars are all people can afford - but I had the opposite scenario as Mark: growing up with all US cars around and then moving to Hawaii and Seattle - where Japan and Germany rule. | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Intermediate Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 1073 Registered: 9-2002 |
I was talking about 30 year old cars. If I can still add correctly, 2003-30=1973 not mid 80s. I love BMW, but admit that the 20 year old cars were nothing amazing, aside for the E24 6 series and the oddities likethe Z1 and the ///M1. They weren't ment to be. They were ment to be normal cars.
And chill out. Did I say that? If you knew about these cars you would of known that there were no five series. I was talking about 70s era cars. a completely different generation. If you knew somthing about these cars then you would not have come back talking about 20 year old BMWs instead. I didnt say or imply you dont know anything, but that you, im sorry to tell you if you never heard this before, dont know everyting either, just like me, just like everyone else. | ||
| Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member Username: Chevarri Post Number: 202 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well heres my view on it. Like Dave and others have said the JP have continued to improve their quality and their product. What I just said is the whole basis of manufacturing. "The goal of manufacturing is on going improvement." The JP contunally make a better car, while the American CEOs are figuring out how to stuff their pockets. The beancounters have helped lead to the demise of the American automobile. American companies continually package a car with poor engineering, low quality, ugly looks, give it some flashy name, and throw some money at some crappy ads, and sell it hoping to earn millions. When that doesnt work they use old name sakes that stir up images of the old glory days, and market that hoping to live off of reputation GTO, T-Bird, Malibu, Impala. I have two Classic Impalas at the house, and if anyone knows any thing about Chevy fom the 60s they know that the Impala was the bread and butter of the company. The Impala was essentially their money maker. Every year they would come out with a new, better, and more appealing car than its predessesor(sp?) Eventually the Impala came to a demise when they kept trying to stuff the same old "S" down the publics throat. Now the Impala is back and its now an econo-box import fighter, with ugly looks to boot. If anyone else who doesnt know, GM dominated the market, sent dozens of car manufacturs out of biz, and almost made Ford go down with everyone else. They did this by providing the American public with what they wanted, and not what they think wanted like Ford did for so long. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 668 Registered: 11-2002 |
Faisal - getting rid of the unions would be TOUGH. Lawsuits, strikes, bad press, etc etc. But the union house is a house of cards, and when one big American company is willing to fight against them, the house will hopefully fall. And that surpises me that the RX8 is boring! I would have thought that Mazda would have done their best to make it a 1st Class car. I guess I'm not all that surpised, though, as Mazda is owned (primarily) by Ford. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 667 Registered: 11-2002 |
Omar - ok. Try an 85 BMW 5 series. If they made them then. About two years ago, I had to buy a car, had virtually no money, and wanted something with some spice. Looked at probably 10 different mid - late 80's model BMWs, and they were pretty weak. Some were in great condition with good maintenance, but they did nothing to inspire me. Of course, I didn't drive any M cars. Sorry. Don't mean to offend your baby brand, but to insinuate that I don't know anything about cars because I find 80's models BMWs bland is kind of stupid. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 936 Registered: 3-2003 |
Oops, sorry, I misread your post. You are right. But I don't know that you can just get rid of unions, or institute such drastic reform. Before you can sell a car warranteed for 10 years, you have to make sure that 90% will last 10 years, or the company is going to go under. Also, the RX8 is a very boring ride. Have done an autocross in it. It was painted a very vibrant yellow, but it was singularly insipid to drive. | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Intermediate Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 1072 Registered: 9-2002 |
And Neb, no such thing as a 30 yr old 5 series, that was the 2002, 3.0CSi, Bavaria era...and yes they are very fun to drive, as any true BMW enthusiast...or for that matter, anyone knows anything about cars. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 666 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh, I agree Faisal. My point was that the car doesn't have to be exciting to sell well. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 935 Registered: 3-2003 |
Nubula, some valid points...but the target market for the Camry probably does not have excitement as one of its requirements. Quality, looks (crisp, but not too cutting edge), trunk capacity, comfort, quiet ride, comfort, convenience, simplicity, etc., whatever the target market's requirements are, the Camry delivers in spades. Same for the Accord, Civic, Corolla, etc. That's why they sell. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 665 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dale - I disagree. While US companies do build pretty boring econoboxes, keep in mind that their biggest competitors, build such bland and excite-less cars as the Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla, etc etc. These are great cars, but let's not ignore the fact that they have as much panache' as a week old hamburger. The cars that DO excite, like the 30 year-old Porsche you mentioned, are built by companies that have tradionally built low-volume, expensive enthusiast vehicles. Yes, there are exciting 30 year-old Porsches and F-cars, but a 30 year old Mercedes 300D? A 30 year-old BMW 5 series? Most of these are sitting, in block form, next to the Lincoln Town Cars and Chrysler K-cars you speak of. The fact is, the unions are sucking the money out of these companies, resulting in the NEED for bean-counters as CEOs. All the money that could go towards developing fantastic cars is funneled into over-paying Billy-Bob for doing crappy work. Bean counters are needed when the unions rule, because the companies need to micro-manage every dollar if they want to survive. Get rid of the unions, enforce some SERIOUS quality protocols (10 year warranty), and refocus development on the next decade's Accords and Camrys. And just to enforce my argument, the only exiciting foreign mass-marketed cars I can think of are maybe the S2000, the Toyota Celica (just barely squeaking by on the excito-meter), the Toyota Spider, the Miata, the RX8, and maybe a few others. But probably 80% of mass-marketed foreign cars are just as boring as your Taurus or Impala. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2962 Registered: 1-2002 |
SRT Mike, the Japanese auto industry--the standard of the world--is not in the thrall of unions, IIRC. Whereas the mainstream Germans (Benz & BMW & VW), formerly the standard, are falling farther & farther behind in quality. Some VW's & Audis are exceptions (as are some Cadillacs), but generally BMW & Benzes & VWs are crap compared to when they began to dominate the market...as their unions have successfully cut their work weeks down to 34 hours, at absurd pay rates, etc. Same as the US industry. And yet, Japanest quality gets better & better & better each year. Without unions. Sorry, but I am right on this one. Dale, good point...but Ford has had several car enthusiast CEO's--Petersen, Nasser, etc.--but they're still in the crapper. GM? Well, with Lutz, it looks like they may come out of the hole for the first time on 30 years...but if he dies or retires, I predict that GM will go back to the same ol' same ol'. And, frankly, 90% of GM's products are mediocre (at best) POS's that even Ray Charles finds ugly. All IMO, of course. | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 450 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>2) the unions<< Dave, as hard as it is for me to say this, I disagree with you on this point. While the unions have played a big role in the decrease of American productivity, the real problem is management. When has the last time a car person ran any of the Big 3? Geeze Louise, all these companines are run by boring accountants who make boring cars aimed at boring people. Americans want to feel good about themselves and their cars. They just wanta have some fun. But when these boring beancounters design ulgy cars that are a POS the day they drive off the line, there is not much the union guys and gals can do about it. To prove my point, go find a 30-year old Porsche. Chances are, just about everything still works and the car is a hoot to drive. Now, go find a 30-year old Detroit POS. Your first problem will be finding one that hasn't been crushed into a block. If you find one, good luck on getting it to run. Traditionally, German labor has been as high or higher than in the US. True, German workers are traditionally more productive than US workers, but whose fault is that? Once again, you should point the finger at management. As someone who turned 16 in 1968, it really pains me to see how bad the US car companies have become. Talk about the days! Hemis with 4-barrel hollys, straight pipes, slicks. You could watch the gas gauge go down as you drove down the highway (kinda like my Maranello). GREAT GAWD ALMIGHTY! Looking back, 68/69/70 was probably the high water mark for the US companies. From there, like crappola, it has all flowed downhill... Dale | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 371 Registered: 12-2002 |
I hate unions as much as anyone, but I don't think that it factors in here too much, simply because many of the other companies that are considered "better" are even more under opressive union contracts. Initial quality may be good on US cars nowadays, but continuing quality and longevity just sucks. My Viper had all sorts of stupid problems. The sidesills started to yellow, the door hinges sagged and the doors would catch when you tried to close them. The interior started to squeak and rattle and overall the car did just not wear well. The same on any American car. My father has a 300M that suffers the same problems. My mother had a Honda Accord that looked, felt, and drove the same on the day she sold it after 3 years and 30k miles as it did when brand new. My BMW 3-series is going on 2 years old and it too feels brand new. When you close the doors, they feel solid. It's comfortable, handles well and feels substantial and well made. My fathers 300M feels plasticy and glued together by comparison. People are just sick of paying $30k for cars that don't hold up well. Around where I live, there are tons of imports. When I travel to the midwest, EVERYONE is buying American. I think the US companies would be MUCH worse off if they didnt have the loyal American-only buyers. As the population renews itself and the economy goes more global, the US manufacturers are in for some serious trouble. Not to mention US cars are just boring, for the most part. Nobody wants to take a chance - the few rare ones like the GT, the Viper, are the exception rather than the rule. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1531 Registered: 5-2002 |
Maybe it's not about the automobiles at all. Maybe it's about MANUFACTURING itself. Practically every other manufacturing industry has left America as our society becomes a digital data revolution economy just as we became an industrial revolution economy in years past. Everything from pots and pans, tennis shoes, clothes, tools, toys, cameras, electronic equipment, and a zillion other products are now made overseas as American companies switch to other areas. Perhaps automobiles are next and that's just the price of progress. (I hope not, but it's getting to be a challenge to find ANYTHING that is made in America anymore. Sad.) | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 926 Registered: 10-2001 |
I spent 4 years as a Headhunter for The Big 3 and their Tier 1 suppliers. When I went into this business, I thought it would be cool to know a lot of the engineers at the top 250 companies in the Auto industry. Two years ago, I saw the writing on the wall for Detroit and switched my Business to finding engineers for the medical, electronics, and wireless industry. 3 things happened 1) When I moved from Florida to Michigan I had a car culture shock! In Florida everyone I knew had a BMW, Lexus, or a Porsche. In Michigan...those same professionals drove AMERICAN CARS, their family drove AMERICAN cars,,, the whole Freakin STATE drove AMERICAN CARS! See what happens is this, If you work for the car companies and many do in Michigan you get a great discount on an America car. If you are family of a worker... you get a great discount on an AMERICAN car. If you are in sales and want to sell to any of the 1,000 companies in Detroit that are related to the car industry... you better not drive a BMW. My friend worked for IBM as a computer consultant and he had to drive an AMERICAN car.. to land his big contracts. Now if your dad was a worker or engineer in the big three.. his sons probably did the same thing... went into the car business. Michigan is a brain-washed fish bowl were everyone drive an American car and the American car is the standard that other American cars are judged against. The failure of the BIG 3 and the American car industry is because all three are located in the same town. If Ford was in CA, and GM was in Texas... .these companies would see the European and Japanese cars everyday and understand there is a competition and see that Detroit only chose American cars because every person in that town is on the family discount program some how. Also... They hire each others engineers. No new blood. I pull a guy out of FORD to stick into GM and then they take a guy from GM to fill the FORD empty position. No fresh or new ideas get into the system. Honda won't even hire engineers from the BIG 3. Honda wants its engineers to do their own CAD design, and have experience with each phase of the engineering process all the way up the ladder. The BIG 3 train Engineers to do only one job, each guy is a specialist. You need a CAD drawing...go talk to the CAD guy. 2) All the American suppliers... Company that makes ABS brakes, Windshield wipers, Instrument Panels, lights, designers.... all being bought and owned by European or Japanese companies. The Tier 1 suppliers are even more important then the BIG 3 because they actually make the wire harness and part and pieces... BIG 3 just slap everything together. Once the car industry had 5 companies makeing ABS brakes. All competeting against each other. Then there were just two ABS comanes as they mergered in the 90's and then just one ABS company as Japanese boutght both and now there are no American Brake companies. This has happened right down the line with the Tier 1 suppliers. 3) Europe and Japan built a lot of new factories in the Sunbelt South-Eastern US. Busting the grip of The UAW and Labor in the North East. I'm glad I got out of the American car business. Its not a happy place to be right now. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1556 Registered: 9-2002 |
W/o knowing how true it is from insiders, a good book (written by Bryan Burroughs of the WSJ, also wrote Barbarians at the gate) about Daimler/Chrysler is called 'Taken for a Ride'. --Dan | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 931 Registered: 3-2003 |
I read in some magazine that Daimler/Chrysler is a mismatch, one being too upmarket for the other. The new products don't fit the expected niches and the consumers aren't going for whatever the hell they are selling. Chrysler customers are dismayed at the higher prices for the new Chrysler models, and the Benz brands are all over the place. The prestige customers are shocked at the new cheap, low-quality cars with the Mercedes badge. In the next issue, several people wrote in that they agreed with the article, and had gone through the exact same decision process and ended up buying other brands even though they had initially started off shopping for a Mercedes or Chrysler. But I don't know, I see plenty on the road. Are the other two top spots still unchanged? Who occupies those? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1554 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dave: your second reason will require a LOT of bandwidth! But I agree with you completely that it's a major factor. --Dan | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 449 Registered: 4-2003 |
In the short run, the Big 3 can stop building boring cars... The new GT is an example of what they can do. The Saturn is an example of what they shouldn't do. Put another way, why couldn't Ford have produced the new Mini, which is the hottest selling car in America today? In the long run, GM, of all companies, is looking to make a huge break through because GM is placing its bets on hydrogen fuel cells. The base car looks like a skate board. Because the car doesn't have a "motor," the body can be any configuration you can dream of. Plus, you can snap a new body in less than an hour. Least you think that this idea belongs in the "tinfoil hat" file, GM has already invested over $1 billion in this technology. Moreover, GM has abandoned all other alternative fuel sources. Currently, fuel cells are too expensive because they use platinum. (Believe me, I know. These charges all keep showing up on my platinum card!) But, think about it. No engine, no gasoline, no oil, no noise. And most importantly, we will be able to tell our Arab and Russian friends what they can do with all that oil... Dale | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2961 Registered: 1-2002 |
What has caused the downfall of the US auto industry? 2 things: 1) the U.S auto industry itself, arrogantly producing crap products that customers ignore violantly, because said automakers "know best", not the customers. 2) the unions | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 661 Registered: 11-2002 |
The big three is no longer what the big three was. It used to be that Ford, GM, and Chrysler ruled over the lands of the auto. Recently, however, Toyota has slipped into third place, kicking Daimler/Chrysler off the coveted list. In the 80's, the US auto manufacturers lost a ton of business due to shoddy crafstmanship, and because they did not perceive the Japanese makers to be a threat. In the 90's, they began to change their philosophies, but they are still losing ground, and quite a bit of it. What is this attributed to? It could be bad craftsmanship, as everyone here knows that just about every Japanese or German automaker creates a superior product in terms of fit and finish. But I think it goes beyond that. I tend to think it is US auto workers, and the mentality behind their work. Ford could easily fix it's quality problems if it began to purchase better parts and if it re-thought it's production lines. This, of course, would end up costing billions and billions of dollars, which Ford does not have. And why doesn't it have this money? Spiraling labor costs, including salaries/benefits, and most costly, their retirement packages. The fact is, Ford and GM cannot afford to use higher quality materials OR re-design their production facilities because all of their excess money is tied up in paying for their workforce, both current and retired. So what does Ford need to do? 1. Completely renegotiate their labor contracts. Stop paying a thrity-year veteran of FMC $60/hour to monitor a paint booth. If that means that the UAW strikes, fine. Let Ford bring in an entirely new work force comprised of currently jobless folks who would be willing to make what blue-collar jobs are worth. 2. Put a 10 year/100,000 miles warranty on all of it's products, save for their limited production vehicles. What this does is it FORCES Ford to build a quality vehicle, such as Kia/Hyundai has been forced to do. It is unnatural selection, so to speak. Ford would be commiting suicide if it put in a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty without restructuring it's production philosophies. 3. Stop all research and future plans for SUVs, and refocus on fuel efficient/hybrid/tech advanced cars. The SUV market, while still strong, is growing long in the tooth. I'd bet that in a few years, the trends will have wandered way past the SUV, and if Ford were to agressively enter into what will be the big market now, they will be years ahead of GM and Chrysler in five years, and MAYBE at the same level as Toyota/Honda. Tough love? Sure, but continuing on the same track for Ford means nothing but a dwindling of power and success. If Ford wants to be marketable in 10 or 15 years, they're going to have to swallow a pretty bitter pill now. Any thoughts? |