| Author | Message | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3394 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Chinese have taken Mongolia, Invaded Tibet, ousted the Dalai Lama and killed over 2 million Tibetans, invaded the N of India and took a small piece. Invaded N Korea at what should have been the end of the US Korean war and pushed the Americans halfway back down into S Korea and are presentlyarguing with tiny Bhutan about borders. Gievn half a chance they will invade any country they can find, same will go for space exploration. Perhaps the US should file a claim on its landing spots on the Moon before the Chinese claim the whole thing | ||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
Junior Member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2003 |
William H, I'm with you. If the product says made in China I usually try to avoid it. There are so many people in need of work here its a shame so many of the products we buy everyday are made there. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 981 Registered: 3-2002 |
William H C/T is correct. It is ashame that the middle class workers are really feeling it. It has been that way for awhile. What heavy industry jobs are their besides computers, Boeing, and automobile ? The US is a large country. It needs more productive industries. Who wants to aid the oligarchal, oppresive, and anti-free Chinese government when they want to become a 1st rate superpower with expansionists views while presently aiming Hydrogen bombs at us ? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3392 Registered: 2-2001 |
Most of the manufacturing jobs have been leaving the US since the 80s due to the high $ & high wages in US. If I see the same product & 1 is made in China & the other is made in Nepal, Taiwan, Brazil, or just about anywhere else I'll buy the 2nd product just cus I dont particularly like the Chinese govt | ||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
Junior Member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2003 |
Have you looked around lately. Seems every item I pick up in the stores now says "MADE IN CHINA" Isn't anything made in this country anymore? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3382 Registered: 2-2001 |
exactly Robin, except if the Chinese push ahead & the US does nothing then the US will play the role of the American Indians & the Chinese will play the role of the US Army of the 1800s. I know which side is less attractive. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 965 Registered: 3-2002 |
Forget Star Wars and Star Trek for a few hundred years. Just a few things on the table for future conflicts: communications or lack of. reconnaissance / intelligence defense from missile attack attacking your opponents space platforms computers - many different approaches here. precise attack on command structures decoys - I am obviously missing a few items here. Yes Jeffery the US must take the hi ground here. The Chinese have sensed an opportunity to close the gap in what is coming up on the horizon. Why bother about having a state of the art tank (O/T) - (tanks will be obsolete in a few years / dormant inexpensive smart muntions will bring this about) when you can work on what is on the way in the future. The best advantages of Space lies in strategic applications. O/T - The best way to deal with terrorism is to attack it at the source. Small teams must have the patience and time to take care of the financiers and planners. There is no finish line when it comes to fighting terrorism. Terrorism will "always" present a problem for the West when you have societies and cultures that "refuse" to modernize and advance. The way to stop terrorism in the near future; is to make the host nation pay severely. The Chinese are never going to make an offensive move in Asia without having the ability to meet the U.S. on better terms. We will be in a very bad position; if they have the ability to put offensive options on the table in Asia. The Russians and other countries in Europe, and the (USA knowingly or unknowingly) are more than happy to sell the Chinese equipment to help them modernize. They have many land claims with their neighbors. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 422 Registered: 5-2002 |
Space takes away the concept of "defense" as we know it. Given an infinite number of planes of attack, it is virtually impossible to protect any sort of fortification. This means that if you are in danger of being attacked, the only possible way to defend yourself is to get rid of the other person first and end the conflict. Either that, or taking out the enemy's fleet first. Although without good detection ability/the ability to split these fleets up and basically just, for lack of a better term, fly around you, this approach is not a very promising one. Definitely brings an interesting dimension to the new evolution, as you put it, of military combat! | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 499 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ralph... for once we agree. Actually I usually agree with your military views. When the first Soviet sat went up we knew that the future was in space. China knows that global control is possible from space. Can you imagine cutting your defense time down to mins? No country could react fast enough. Scary stuff. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 963 Registered: 3-2002 |
The Chinese are correct in assuming the next big evolution in military warfare will be in space. Airpower was the last big evolution in military warfare. Space provides many potential applications to attack your opponent from. It will only provide more possibilities in the future. | ||
| Robin Overcash (Robin)
Member Username: Robin Post Number: 284 Registered: 1-2003 |
You mean like the US Army did to the native Americans in the 1800's??? Ooo did I say that??  -R | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3374 Registered: 2-2001 |
If you remember your history lessons you will remember that before Columbus Spain was a european backwater. After Columbus sailed and discovered the Americas & claimed ALL of the Americas for Spain, Spain became a superpower for almost 300 years. Now thats quite a nice return on investment. Exploration pays BIG dividends, look at how the US went from a group of colonists & peasants, once we had spread to CA and the Louisiana purchase and Alaska the US became a superpower. The world is now at a point in time simialar to the late 15th C. We have a great opportunity to explore and the country that truly takes up that challenge will win huge dividends. The US gained a lot in technology from the Apollo program. The Chinese now have the same type of motivator as JFK was for the US. They have a very ambitious space program and if they do indeed create Moon bases that will put the US & the rest of the world in the back seat economically & technologically There is a very good chance that the Moon has gold, platinum, titanium, Hydrogen 3, even water in ice form | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3373 Registered: 2-2001 |
another reason theChinese space program will be much cheaper than the US is that they stole most of the tech from the US & Russia. We had to design & invent that stuff, they can just " pull it off the shelf " | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3367 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jason, its not about the Chinese govt being foreigners or non US. Its the fact that the Chinese govt is a tyrranical, genocidal dictatorship. Does that sound like the kind of world where you would want to live. Suppose they start a Moon base & become fabulously wealthy through selling some rare material or building something on the Moon. Suppose that allows them to overtake the US economically. Then suppose they decide that the Chinese people should be the only people on Earth and they take their new $ and use it to wipe out whole races of people. Theyve done it before in Mongolia & Tibet, I dont see anything preventing them from doing it again if the opportunity arises | ||
| Jason (Arnaget)
Junior Member Username: Arnaget Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2003 |
not to play down the 'threat' of China becoming an international superpower, but how does their foray into space exploration--even remotely--constitute a threat or "nightmare" of sorts? sure, every country wants to be successful, and who can blame them for it?. the focus on this ethnocentrism is pretty ironic, considering what us, as Americans, did to originally take this country from its natives and become a superpower. why can't countries other than the "US & Europe" strive to succeed? America has been a great place to grow up and live in; however, let's not forget that civilization is composed of more than just what we're used to. fyi, the Ferrari you have grown to love was not built or designed in the US. similarly, the TV or radio you might be listening to was likely not built in the US either. why not start a rant on how 'if we're not careful, Italy will become the superpower of exotic automobiles forever.' i don't hear anyone complaining about that. it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense how narrow-minded our thinking can be these days. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3366 Registered: 2-2001 |
knowing the Chinese & what they did to Tibet, Mongolia, & Hong Kong I will bet they if they land astronauts on the Moon they will claim the whole thing for the Chinese Empire. I think its about time NASA & DC wake up before we have to fight the Chinese on the Moon for a piece of it. They are already stating that they are interested in Moon bases, after that come Moon factories, then come interplanetary ships built on the Moon. After the the US becomes an unimportant backwater & Chine rules the solar sytem. Now THAT would truly be a nightmare Tim & Others, the Earth may have billions of tons of ore etc but the solar sytem has a supply of everything billions of times larger than the Earth and enough raw material to last longer than the human species. By the way there is also water on asteroids which would be more valuable than platinum aboard a space ship or a lunar base | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 416 Registered: 5-2003 |
"Well we've been putting shuttles up pretty consistently for the last couple of decades.. I think they've been doing some pretty good stuff, most notably the space telescopes that are up and that will be going up soon." The Shuttle was designed to be part of a complete system including a permanent space station and a heavy lift launch system. Running the Shuttle by itself is just launching for show. NASA manages to get some use out of the table scraps their budget gets tossed, but it's not really a "program" -- just scrambling around the edges. The ISS is another "political" program -- endlessly redesigned and debated. What we really need is what they missed in "Armegeddon". Take a "near miss" asteroid, and boost it into LEO (low earth orbit) ... and mine it. Raw materials in LEO are worth their weight in unobtanium. Silicon for micrograv semiconductors, O2 for consumables, materials for building in orbit, rock as reaction mass for orbit-to-orbit propulsion, etc. And you live in pressurized tunnels -- with several feet of rock between you and that 30 year old telecom satellite or loose bolt that's gone astray in orbit. Of course, the "back to 'nature'" types on Earth would probably riot if people (other than them) were going to make money tossing rocks around the sky -- with the kind of power sources you'd need to use vaporized rock as a reaction mass. But then, Mars already _has_ a couple of asteroids in orbit. And a third the gravity well. So ... how do we convert a Ferrari to run on Mars?  | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 530 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yes, you're right. You can buy a piece of moon, since one company claimed it. After the buy, you can call yourself Duke of "Whateveryoucalledyourlandonthemoon". You can use that title on earth, although it holds absolutly no falue at all. Bart | ||
| Robin Overcash (Robin)
Member Username: Robin Post Number: 278 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think some company started selling land deeds to property on the moon a long time ago. A few acres only cost a few bucks if I recall correctly. I doubt they're legally binding, but someone's been working that angle... -R | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 528 Registered: 9-2002 |
William is right, mining outside the earth will be hot in the near future (ok, not within 5 years, but it could be close enough to live it). After the first private spacetrip, enough "mining" companies will step-up eventually. Once the money from private investors gets rolling... Also moonbases are very valueable (sp?) for launching shuttles to other planets (10G vs. 1.6G). Since there are no rules, by my knowing, for claiming pieces of moon, we'd better watch them. Bart | ||
| Robin Overcash (Robin)
Member Username: Robin Post Number: 277 Registered: 1-2003 |
DGS: Well we've been putting shuttles up pretty consistently for the last couple of decades.. I think they've been doing some pretty good stuff, most notably the space telescopes that are up and that will be going up soon. The international space station was no minor feat either. MarkPDX: Agree that non-gov't spaceflight will be the next big step for us. I did the press release graphics and animations for Vela Technology Development/Zegrahm Space Voyages (one of the X-Prize contenders) about 6 or 7 years ago. They've sinced changed ship designs, personnel, expectations, etc, but as far as I know, they're still on track for developing a reuseable civilian space vehicle. With the competition involved, I'm sure that some new technologies will evolve to make civilian space travel much more attainable. Hope I'm around long enough to see the results of these efforts... -R | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Intermediate Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 1007 Registered: 11-2001 |
I think that the human race has to get off this planet and diversify. I don't care which nation takes the lead. If the Chinese can set up a moonbase, more power to them. Of course, it will give them a great advantage to be sitting at the top of the gravity well, both from an economic and military perspective | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3364 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Chinese space progaram is going to be a lot cheaper than the US space program cus they pay their people so little, if at all. Right now, this could be like the 60s in the US with JFK for the Chinese space program Tim, as for mining asteroids, You can mine gold, platinum titanium and other things from asteroids that would make them worth the trip As for the Moon, it has water in ice form, you can easily make cement from the lunar regolith and it has something very valuable to us, Hydrogen 3 which will be used in Nuclear Fusion reactors. H3 is very rare on Earth but its everywhere on the Moon | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Intermediate Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 1093 Registered: 4-2003 |
DGS I have no doubt that Burt Rutan's company Scaled Composites will succeed with Space Ship One. And then there are all those other X Prize teams.   | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Intermediate Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 1109 Registered: 6-2002 |
You know, the day of the shuttle accident, a friend of mine said something to the effect of "you'll never get ME up in one of those things!" I looked him square in the eye and said "If you offered it to me, I'd go now. Right now, with the clothes I'm wearing, and I'd never look back." I meant it too. He thought about it for about half a second, and said "Aww, hell, I would too, truth be told." Best! Ben. | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 414 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jason; That "lowest bidder" line was paraphrased from an interview with one of the original Mercury Astronauts (Sheppard, I think.) (When we were still behind the Russian program.) Robin; We haven't really had a space "program" since '72. Once in a while we let someone step out on the porch, but we haven't left Earth since back then. Jim; I think we need a new non-government program. The problem with the moon race is that it sold everyone on the idea that only the government can fly in space -- an idea that didn't exist before the '60s. Just what does the government do so well that we think they should have a monopoly on transportation? | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2011 Registered: 7-2002 |
what constitutes a super power? military and economic might? and by economic might is it from a manufacturing or consuming standpoint? Is the US the largest consumer of the worlds goods? Does China have the disposable income to become the largest consumer? If so...watch out. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Intermediate Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 1107 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yeah, it is a little scary. Jim, is right don't underestimate the will of the Chinese people. There is the real threat that China will become THE superpower in the next few dacades. I'd love to see us get back in the full swing of the space race again. It would be good for everyone! | ||
| Jim Muise (Writerguy)
Junior Member Username: Writerguy Post Number: 173 Registered: 9-2003 |
you are probably not old enough to remember Barney Miller Fish was holding a bullet proof vest in his hands and said "You know I can't help but think that this was supplied by the lowest bidder..." | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 764 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jim, I see what you mean. In regards to risk, I always get a kick out of this line from Armageddon: "You know we're sitting on four million pounds of fuel...and a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder. Makes you feel good, doesn't it?" | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 562 Registered: 8-2002 |
They won't be able to stay in space for long. They'll run out of food........you know, after you eat chineese food you're hungry in 1/2 hour. (of course, I can't forget the necessary F-chat disclaimer....this is merely a joke...not meaning to insult, harass, start a flame war, stereotype, put-down, be insensitive, instigate, be politically incorrect, etc, etc, etc...... | ||
| Augustine J. Staino (Azzuro328)
Member Username: Azzuro328 Post Number: 595 Registered: 4-2003 |
Chinese food, bad for my stomach. Okay, I'll go back to the silly "flame" threads now. | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 405 Registered: 2-2003 |
With or without the space program, China will be a super power. Their are over 1-billion people in China, and if Democracy, or something similar ever takes hold, they will be off and running. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 586 Registered: 7-2003 |
I wonder if Bill Clinton got a Thank You note from China. | ||
| Jim Muise (Writerguy)
Junior Member Username: Writerguy Post Number: 169 Registered: 9-2003 |
Jason I can apreaciate your positon having such a personal interest in all of this. But like Jim said the US wants 100% risk free trial offers. I know from people who I have interviewed after the first shuttle explosion that signing up for the job is still something that carries a level of risk. I also understand that part of the job is to eliminate as much risk as possable and that is great, the only thing i was really going for is not to Slag NASA for making sure the things make it back ok it was more of a point that the Chinese will not hesitate to strap more people in when the risk factors are 200X what we would accept. It is not a good thing for anyone involved but you will see them make some considerable progress in no time. Also i had a front row seat to the Texas brakeup, I was shooting theVolvo XC 90 outside Dallas that morning and had just put the camera away when I looked up and thought Humm I wonder what that is. Didn't get a single picture of it. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2007 Registered: 7-2002 |
well the US citizen wants a 100% guarantee with 0% risk. Impossible situation. maybe we need another gov't organization to make sure we get these desired results.... | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 762 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jim, I'm kind of pleased with the responce NASA has shown with the shuttle accident. Just because there aren't any missions going up right now doesn't mean the astronauts aren't training for when the time does come again. My father just got back from Russia not 4 weeks ago and he's going back in another week to train for a month. Ok, I'm done. Jason- | ||
| Jim Muise (Writerguy)
Junior Member Username: Writerguy Post Number: 167 Registered: 9-2003 |
Its easy to look at what they did with a Old Tech aproach to space flight and dismiss the thing as "Quaint" and "Primitive" Right now it is but I have a long enough memory to recall when Japan was starting to export Quaint and primitive cars to the US and no one really gave them a hope in hell of Kicking the BIG THREE out of the market. (My Wife is asian so the next coment is from personal experience) Never underestimate the determination to be respected and the ability to do what ever it takes to get there. Remember China's neighbour to the south (North Korea) subsists on international handouts to feed their people while spending millions to aquire Nukes and Missles. Be aware that they have designs on space and ultimatly it could end up being the "Star Trek Unifier" that we all need. but it could also be a very touchy thing for a long time. The main thing that we will see over the next while is that sooner or later the Chinese will loose a couple of astronauts in a firey accident and within days have another couple ready to be strapped to a rocket. None of this protracted navel gazing that NASA is going through right now after the Shuttle. Life is cheap when you got over a billion to go. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 960 Registered: 3-2002 |
China is a competitor to the U.S. China is an aggressor in Asia. It has land claims with Taiwan, Malaysia, Spratly Islands area, Japan, and Vietnam. There was also a recent bold remark from a General about Los Angeles. I am sure they want to utilize their space program for the military applications of space. Jim and Ben are correct. I am sure this will help Nasa with funding. The U.S. had better wake up. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Intermediate Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 1088 Registered: 6-2002 |
I think it's going to be great! Hell, if I were NASA, I'd have covertly sponsored the whole thing, just to kick up intrest in our space program! Best! Ben. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1993 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think it is just a wake up call. You know how when kids don't want a toy until some other kid picks it up. China just picked up our toy. | ||
| Robin Overcash (Robin)
Member Username: Robin Post Number: 274 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm with Tim on this one.. we've had men and women in space for 40 years now. The Chinese have a lot of catching up to do. By the time we have anything to worry about from them, we'll be on Mars and mining the moons of Jupiter.. Besides, I'm not sure what we'd really have to worry about anyway. They'll put a few spy satellies overhead, just like we've been doing to everyone else on the planet? Maybe I'm just a Star Trek geek, but I think space travel could be the ultimate unifier. Scientific progress is generally a good thing. -R | ||
| djmonk (Davem)
Member Username: Davem Post Number: 452 Registered: 1-2002 |
Well Tim. They were at least able to put to rest the myth that you can't see the great wall of China from space! Thats got to be worth a few dollars! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3491 Registered: 6-2001 |
What is there for them to do on the moon? Didnt we stop going there beacuse there was nothing more we could learn from moon missions? Frankly i am not impressed that they will be landing on the moon in 2010. By 2010, it would have been over 50 years since the a US astronaut landed on the moon. Mars is the place that is still worthwhile to go to, and this is what NASA is currently focusing on doing. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3490 Registered: 6-2001 |
This could leave the door open for what? The door to letting chinese people float around in a small floating lab in earth's orbit? China doesnt have the $$$ to "go full throttle" on space exploration. Do you know how much it costs? A quick search gave me a few interesting numbers. the mars global surveyor mission costed 154 million 1996 dollars. the mars pathfinder mission cost "under $250 million" according to a nasa pres release. If it costs $250 million to land a small unmanned rover on mars, is would cost many times more to get people there. people need to bring food and other heavy stuff. I could be wrong, but i dont think we have to worry about china. I also dont think wehave to worry about anyone mininng an asteroid for a while. wouldnt it be too expensive to mine an asteroid for, say, iron or nickel, when there are billions of tons of it on earth? Mining asteroids is a pipe dream, at least for now. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1788 Registered: 2-2001 |
China is definitely our biggest long term threat. They are even discussing landing on the moon before 2010 and Mars soon after. Their first space flight was also a military intelligence gathering mission. The US will soon be behind if we dont step up. Ernesto | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3363 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Chinese have launched their first astronaut, the Chinese version of John Glen. Now that the US & NASA have scrapped the shuttle replacement and are dragging their feet on flying the shuttle this could leave the door open for the chinese. They have stolen a lot of tech from the west. If the Chinese decide to go full throttle on space exploration instead of just using it as a PR stunt then this could be VERY bad for the US & Europe. If the Chinese embark on a serious exploration program, for instance if they decide to take on the challenge of capturing & mining an asteroid & the US does nothing, Well the Chinese could become the superpower of the 21st C if we arent careful |