| Author | Message | ||
| luciano favero (Ontogenetic1007)
Junior Member Username: Ontogenetic1007 Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffrey Wolfe >Luciano... you posted "And remember God did not create man. Man created god.". >I can only hope you get to tell our creator that in person sometime very soon. One must stand outside a whole to note the whole (hence you). As evidenced, I only speak to super powers. god is a second hand writer, unlike someone (possibly you). KDS >History is crystal clear on one point, and that is that power....the exercise of raw military and political force >....is the only effective cure for dictators, fascists and terrorists, whatever flag they fly. Erroneous conclusion. History has revealed that wars have been a superlative conduit for cultural exchange and assimilation. However, the success of a society is highly dependent on the balance between its repulsers + attractors, its elements of competition and cooperation. No evidence of wars being effective cures for dictators, fascists and terrorists exists. Au contraire -- wars aren't answers, they are questions. >I just wish that I could be the one to push the button when the time comes..........and it will.......it will..... Gently wipe the foam from your mouth. ... You may begin your deep breathing now. Telson >US power There is more to power than 1000 Viper bhps. In a less than sarcastic tone, with the interest of survival, corporate North America is several years into the arduous process of redefining the term "power" ... something to do with the interaction between the parts and that ever meaningful space between them (and us). in conclusion Jeffrey Wolfe >"Being a patriot means having a devotion to your country... Translation: Love is more important than freedom. | ||
| David Mcguire (Matkat)
Junior Member Username: Matkat Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2003 |
I have read all the posts and I must say they make intresting reading,I really do not know why you all take Jeffrey so seriously as I think the majority of you have forgotten/do not know that he is not really American,since he was born in Scotland he can never be a true American does not matter how much he says that he is.He is and always will be Scottish.Ah ra best Pal Best regards Dave McGuire | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thank you. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 505 Registered: 5-2003 |
Happy to | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 172 Registered: 8-2003 |
Jeffrey, Forget it. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 504 Registered: 5-2003 |
Joe.. I never indicated that YOu said canada deserved parity. My comments were of a general nature based upon the posts from people that are NOT Americans and seem to think they have the right to make a judgement about how we behave on a global scale. Why would we give a F**k what a person from Hong Kong or Alberta thinks. IF you recall the American reaction to Germany and France going against us and how that is impacting their relationship with us you might get a clue. Even the all powerful UN was put in it's place finally. Read my lips... we don't need input from almost third world countries. Should we start posting all of the French, German and anti UN jokes that were made? Even on this board their was a backlash of anti French sentiment. Thank God for America.. and, with the help of GW, any that disagree should watch their backs... we are not the wimps that Clinton almost made us. | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 169 Registered: 8-2003 |
sorry for the inadvertant thread hijacking. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1049 Registered: 2-2003 |
Should the Lt. Col. be punished for what he did or be allowed to make a false political statement on behalf of the soldiers in his command and the rest of the Armed Forces serving over there? Be objective since the military strictly prohibits his actions. A simple yes or no answer will do. I really would like to know especially from those who have prior service. | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 168 Registered: 8-2003 |
Art - Jeffrey Wolfe is not representative of the average, thinking conservative. Jeffrey just uses conservatism as the smoke screen for his hate mongering. I wanted to call him on it, and somewhere between me typing the words and Jeffrey reading them, my post became a demand that Canada (amongst other uppity nations) be given parity with the USA. The mind of Jeffrey is a wacky place. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2751 Registered: 6-2001 |
With all the bashing going on, just take a look at those who are on each side. The conservates have Mr. Wolfe. I guess I don't need to say any more. Art | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 167 Registered: 8-2003 |
Jeffrey, Where in my post did you see anything at all about Canada deserving parity with America? What on earth are you talking about? What are you referring to? Either you can't read or you are actually crazier than I initially thought you were. For your benefit, I guess I'll say it again: I said that you were a low rent racist and anti-Semite that is using patriotism, conservatism and Christianity as cover to spew your hateful mumbo jumbo. Furthermore it is truly shameful how you constantly use the tragedy of 9/11 as justification for your rantings. A lot of Canadians (as well as people from countless other countries) also died in those towers. You�re a coward. You�re also bonkers. You paint yourself as Mr. Moral Majority but you readily admit to doing illegal drugs with your wife and friends in order to have interesting conversations � I guess when you�re high you feel like an intellectual? I knew people like that in high school � they grew out if it. You also regularly go to Hedo for a good, wholesome vacation. My goodness you are a hypocrite Jeffrey! Do you have multiple personalities or do you just not see all the contradictions in your life? No wonder you�re coming unglued. It's people like you that give conservatives a bad name. By the way Jeffrey, in your quest to portray yourself as Captain America, it must drive you nuts to hear your immigrant parents speak with a Scottish or British accent right? Finally,
What? | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 643 Registered: 7-2003 |
Don't have a cow, man.  | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 501 Registered: 5-2003 |
Joe.. I , along with many Americans, could care less what a canadian thinks.Just be happy that your country has nothing to offer or by this time you would be owned by America. GOD..I am so tired of posters from other countries that think they deserve parity with America. Thank god that the liberals and Dems screwed up so badly. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1037 Registered: 2-2003 |
"This is another thing I dont understand about the US. No other country is allowed to have nukes? Why, because they have them now and nobody else is allowed to?" You need to brush up on your international politics. Its called the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Tready (NPT) signed by 64 nations in 1968 and now currently has 187 nations signed in 2000. http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/ "And since when have the US stuck to any agreements concerning nukes? And lets not forget two factors. The US military have probably killed more people than any other army in modern time. Plus the only country to have ever used the bomb is the US. Both of those things worry me more than what China may or may not be up to." Besides the National Ballistic Missile defense system due to the threats from rogue nations or groups, how about the Start treaty? How about interferring to prevent Pakistan and India from turning Southeast Asia into a nuclear fallout zone? I would like to see statistics, however, if your trying to prove we're the biggest aggressor, don't bother. Its already widely believed. Don't use the fact of the US being the only country to use a nuclear weapon agenda when at the time it was widely accepted and still is today as a case of MILITARY TACTICS. Hence, why we have the NPT in the first place. | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 164 Registered: 8-2003 |
Kds - fair enough, and I appreciate the clarification. I agree that it is close to impossible to indicate sarcasm when it's just words on a page. I suppose I was just trying to state what I think is obvious: that all "right thinking" people worldwide, despite religion, or political affiliation, were (and are) sickened by 9/11 and any and all terrorism (and the mindless fundamentalism that supports it). As a fellow conservative Canadian that is living under the boot of federal Liberal oppression, we have a lot of work to do. Uniting the right is the first step. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 326 Registered: 5-2003 |
Joe.... I missed your sarcasm I guess. That's part of the problem with the internet, voice inflection, facial expressions and body language do not translate at all. No offence intended....inquiring minds wanted to know and you answered. | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 163 Registered: 8-2003 |
Kds - what are you talking about? Are you being sarcastic or did you not see the sarcasm in my original post? Why are you connecting me with famous lefties and even a Marxist? One would be hard-pressed to insult me more. Jeffrey - You are nothing more than a low-rent, run-of-the-mill racist and flaming anti-Semite. In a very cowardly fashion, you use patriotism, conservatism and Christianity as a cloak to hide behind. I am not the only person on this board that sees right through your facade. A cursory search through your posts exposes you for what you really are. Why don't you just admit it? I am a card-carrying Conservative and a Christian (not that it should matter). Despite that, you and I have nothing in common (trust me, I'm glad too Jeffrey). I'll take my brand of (true) conservatism over your cross-burning version any day of the week. | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 114 Registered: 8-2003 |
US power is definitely relative. As an essentially bankrupt nation without national private savings worth mentioning and without China, who at least until now are buying up an enormous part of the US debt we are pretty good at producing, the lights would go off in Washington, etc. Or take our military machine, no offense against Iraqis here, but one little superfluous war against an impoverished and weakened nation - and I obviously was totally opposed against this war- and our allegedly so powerful military machine is already totally over extended. Heck, even if Dubya would want to attack some more countries to win the next elections he couldn't, just witness his pussyfooting around North Korea these days, lol. Even though we are Goliath, we don't stand a chance in a million if we delude ourselves into thinking we can go it alone against the rest of the world. | ||
| Adnaan Rasool (Adnaan)
Junior Member Username: Adnaan Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2003 |
This is another thing I dont understand about the US. No other country is allowed to have nukes? Why, because they have them now and nobody else is allowed to? And since when have the US stuck to any agreements concerning nukes? And lets not forget two factors. The US military have probably killed more people than any other army in modern time. Plus the only country to have ever used the bomb is the US. Both of those things worry me more than what China may or may not be up to. As for China having missiles pointed at Taiwan. Dont America have missiles pointed at Russia? Dont be naive in thinking all the missiles have been re-directed... In a position of power you can do what you want. That doesnt mean you have to... | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 113 Registered: 8-2003 |
"The issues prior have been addressed to deal with our fellow man in a respectful manner - thus receiving said treatment in return. Life is too short - one must be aware not only of the dangers others present to us, but what dangers we are to ourselves." Yup. It's not only a law in physics, it applies equally to every other part of life as well: Action = Reaction Over time one will always reap what one sows, both good and bad. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 631 Registered: 7-2003 |
Despite China's non-proliferation agreements, they've shot a few missiles to mindfuck their neighbors, and still keep 300-350 missiles pointed at Taiwan and a few other outposts. For example, a few nuclear warheads have been pointed at the US since just days prior to 9-11-01, coincidentally, of course wink-wink, nudge-nudge. The treasonists - not just to the US, but the world at large - Clinton and Gore - are responsible for that. Year of the Rat sums up the damage done by Clinton and Gore in exchange for Donations China is believed to have over 400 nuclear weapons, and military stockpiles of 4 tons of plutonium and 20 tons of HEU. China now has a civilian nuclear industry as well, but does not yet have substantial quantities of civilian separated plutonium. Public information about the specifics of China's approaches to security and accounting for its nuclear weapons and materials is sparse. In general, China is believed to have a system for security and accounting for its nuclear warheads and materials that is similar to the old Soviet system � heavily dependent on "guards, guns, and gates," with relatively little application of modern safeguards technologies that may be needed if insider theft becomes a serious concern (as it may, with China's increasingly market-oriented and increasingly corrupt society). Outside terrorist attack may someday also be an issue: China does have a continuing problem with terrorist groups, including groups based in China's Islamic minority, which the Chinese government believes are linked to al Qaeda. The United States and China initiated a lab-to-lab cooperation program on technologies for securing and accounting for nuclear materials in the late 1990s, which ultimately included the installation of a demonstration facility for modern safeguards and security technology at the China Institute of Atomic Energy in Beijing, which U.S. participants hoped would create a new standard for securing and accounting for nuclear materials in China. This cooperation was cut off after the scandal over allegations of Chinese nuclear espionage in the United States, (Chinagate) and has not yet been resumed � though U.S. physical protection experts have traveled to China to give lectures and have discussions on approaches to securing nuclear material under IAEA auspices since then. To further underline the juncture at which the bulk of the citizenry of the World - not just the US - unwittingly stands at this moment, the Yuan is pegged on, and now controls - the dollar. Despite the best efforts of senior administration officials trying to loosen the chokehold which has had a large impact on the US economy, yet retains the unlofty air of "media silence", the chokehold remains. It's a complex issue - the US has been the good guy, and is perceived (Damned if the US does, Damned if it doesn't) as the bad guy by some populaces and their agendas foisted upon them by hard-leftists posing as gentle lambs these days. That's not the issue I've addressed in previous posts. The issues prior have been addressed to deal with our fellow man in a respectful manner - thus receiving said treatment in return. Life is too short - one must be aware not only of the dangers others present to us, but what dangers we are to ourselves. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 500 Registered: 5-2003 |
Luciano... you posted "And remember God did not create man. Man created god.". I can only hope you get to tell our creator that in person sometime very soon. And Thomas... as we, Americans, have proven many times over it does not matter the number of the enemy. Of course the rest of the world "outnumbers" us. Funny that we still always win. Thats the best part of being the only world superpower, the yokels can ••••• but who cares? Gee... we pissed France and Germany off....we will see how our lapdogs act when the UN is rendered moot. Any bets.? I am reminded of a quote from a german right after the war... " the British walk the earth as if they owned it... the Americans walk the earth as if they don't care who owns it". | ||
| Adnaan Rasool (Adnaan)
Junior Member Username: Adnaan Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2003 |
True they are a superpower. But their foreign policy is significantly different. Plus unlike the US they have 20% of the world's population. Im sure they would become very unpopular if they started bombing every country they opposed too. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 629 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hence the term "The Ugly American" Too bad they finished casting for it @ 1 month ago. I could have personally recommended a few local yokels to the Casting Director. Don't know if it was a remake of the '63 movie based on the '58 book of the same title, or if it was an Episode Name for a TV show, as this particular Casting Director is the busiest in L.A. - but the title speaks for itself. I'll ask next time I talk to her. China is a Superpower - soon to be a SuperDuperPower. Just don't hear too much about it on the Nightly News. | ||
| Adnaan Rasool (Adnaan)
Junior Member Username: Adnaan Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2003 |
What worries me is the attitude of some people. The US is now the only superpower, but some people see that as a god given right to do what they want, when they want, to whoever they want. You have power so use it, dont abuse it. Every superpower that has come in the past has fallen. Be it the Roman, British, Ottoman. You name it. Just because the US is the most technologically advance and economically strong nation, does not guarantee immortality. US foreign policy has won very few friends around the world, and in the last decade the US its popularity has declined further. Dont let that be the catalyst to a downfall in power. The one thing missing from some people on this chat site is compassion. They really dont care about anything other that their oil supply, dollars, and world control. Well this has been the reason why the US is so unpopular, and then you are surprised when they are hated? If you are going to have that kind of attitude then you will not win any friends, but make plenty more enemies. | ||
| luciano favero (Ontogenetic1007)
Junior Member Username: Ontogenetic1007 Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffrey Wolfe has said >Adnaan.. I have never debated that there are other intent for the UK and USA involvement. >As the primary world power we have the right, the need, and the ability to promote our own agenda. Perplexed by your comment "primary world power". Kindly explicate. As for agenda - naturally other 'we' do exist. Their reach extends beyond national and cultural borders, beyond artificial borders. It is a modular, fludic and mobile "we". The rigid "we" you speak of is an outmoded and antiquated paradigm. >Thank god for It is the absence of god which reassures Man. [H�elderlin] >leaders like the Bush's and Regan And remember God did not create man. Man created god. >Sorry if my choice of title for members of the arab world offends some.... >I was greatly offended by all of the deaths of Americans. Why? Do you not support the death penalty? Likewise, http://www.unicef.org/crc/ "Only two countries have not ratified: the United States and Somalia" >As the primary world power we have the right, the need, and the ability to promote our own agenda. >Hurting the feelings of someone >named Amir or Fiasal does not register too deeply with me. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1032 Registered: 2-2003 |
Telson, Faisal, good points. That Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo is not going to be disciplined is shocking. "Far from honorable," I couldn't agree more. That goes for whomever turns a blind eye to what he did. As for Gen. Clark, the comments don't surprise me any. To understand Gen. Clark, you must understand that he is neither a Democrat or a Republican, but both. Regardless of his political affiliation, I like his ideas, and he has my vote. How he voted and the praise he said must not be taken out of context. He voted for what he believed would work, he praised the policies that he supported, and if he wished to keep his job, he wasn't going to openly challenge those policies. Thats traditional military politics. Now things are different.  | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 623 Registered: 7-2003 |
"Being a patriot means having a devotion to your country...not pandering to the wants of a few others." Can't the same be said of non-Americans? You should get rid of your Lotus Europa, then. And your Mondial, and your Maserait Merak, and your Lotus Esprit. Can't be driving no damn foreign cars - Yeehaw. The membership of this forum is not limited to Americans. There are even - heaven forbid - Italians! Ewwwwwwww - can't they stick to making Ferraris? For example, there are 4332 posts in FerrariChat.com Europe. Aside from the European section, our fellow F-Chatters from Europe post in the General Discussion Section, Vintage(Stunning expertise) and Off-Topic, amongst others. Even though your "opposition" posts in "American" sections, 4332 posts is slightly over 2/3 of what's in the General Discussion Section - which is 6341 posts as of this writing. The World population is 6,375,209,200. The US population is 292,378,677. Guess what - you're badly outnumbered, and out of touch. What you're advocating is that the World should "pander to the wants of a few others," that is, that it should be an honor to be insulted by you. FYI, I argue with the Liberals here. Just ask Art. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 497 Registered: 5-2003 |
The only thing I would add is that this board may be international in membership but is American based. Sadly... like many things these days, it seems that means little to the operators. Being a patriot means having a devotion to your country...not pandering to the wants of a few others. I am an American and could care less what Amir or Achmed or Adolph think. Our policy is not up for world debate. Why should France be treated as an equal? Or Greece, Turkey or Spain? Prior to the fall of the USSR central europe was thought of as a chess set for the two superpowers and NATO was just them begging for the US's protection. For some here to say that an imperial view is wrong only shows them to be what they are.... liberals that have sold out their country. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 325 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ditto on what Jeffrey just said. History is crystal clear on one point, and that is that power....the exercise of raw military and political force....is the only effective cure for dictators, fascists and terrorists, whatever flag they fly. It is not only morally justified to confront such evil; it is immoral not to do so. I just wish that I could be the one to push the button when the time comes..........and it will.......it will..... Joe.... I am an athiest and I was offended by 9/11...where did you get such an idea anyways ? Chomsky ? Michael Moore ? Babwa Stweisand ? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 496 Registered: 5-2003 |
Adnaan.. I have never debated that there are other intent for the UK and USA involvement. As the primary world power we have the right, the need, and the ability to promote our own agenda. AS for this being the World Wide Web.. I know and could care less. Not being a Liberal that thinks we need to interact with the world as equals I accept that weaker nations would love to see us crawl. Thank god for leaders like the Bush's and Regan... they knew that killing a few of the enemy usually stops the BS. As a final note... Why would I care that we dropped bombs that killed Arabs...? Last I checked a large portion of their leaders wanted Americans dead.... Hell.. even the Liberals like to say that the Saudi's hate us. | ||
| Adnaan Rasool (Adnaan)
Junior Member Username: Adnaan Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeffrey Your comments. Well what can be said about them. If it needs explaining then you are a lost cause already. As for other parts of the discussion from some of the others. My opinion on the whole matter is the USA and UK should never have gone into Iraq. They got control of the nation but have no control on the country. The country is in an even bigger mess than before they took it over. All Iraqis who I have spoken to do not support the war, despite their dislike for Saddam. I have not met any big fans of his, they tell me more Iraqis have been killed by the bombing than was probably killed by Saddam. The only difference is we can do it from 60000 feet and not see the damage once we press the button. Remember this is not a film or a computer game. Real people do die. Dont think the majority Iraqis supported the war, because thats the media spin. How many Iraqis have you asked? The Iraq war was extremely unpopular in the UK. Before the war we had the biggest demostrations in history opposing the war. Since then the governments unpopular status has grown. I know this will be seen as controvertial, but I will say this. The US and UK went into Iraq on their own agenda. They tried to gain UN approval but they could not get it. So they went ahead anyway. The war was never going to be a problem, but now they have hit a problem. They cannot control the country, are having trouble in putting a government in place, and security is a major issue. So now that the real battle has started they want to hand things over to the UN? This current problem in Iraq was created by us. We should not expect other nations to contribute financially or with unfortuantely with lives. Its typical of what we do all the time. Create a mess and then leave everyone else to clean it up. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 617 Registered: 7-2003 |
"Hurting the feelings of someone named Amir or Fiasal (sic) does not register too deeply with me." I think I speak for the vast majority of non-Arabs on this board when I say "It registers with me, though." The 2 gentlemen, and with the broad-stroke of your flailing, dripping-with-hatred-commentary whom you disrespect have already earned much more respect from the Ferrarichat community than you could ever hope to gain. This is the WorldWideWeb. It's not the WhiteAngloSaxonProtestantGoUSAWeb. Regardless of the mindset of a movement which I must emphasize - does not encompass the whole of the Arab bloodline and/or Muslim faith, the odds of someone with *my first name which is Hebrew in origin, though most people don't know that* doing great bodily harm to an Anglo-Saxon are statistically greater than that of someone with any particular name which is Arabic, or to distinguish that which is indistinguishable to an attacking WASP, Hindu in it's origin. *Thomas: twin, one of the twelve (Matt. 10:3; Mark 3:18, etc.). He was also called Didymus (John 11:16; 20:24), which is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew name. "Fiasal" is spelled F-a-i-s-a-l. | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 160 Registered: 8-2003 |
That probably makes sense to you, right Jeffrey? Seem like a reasonable position? Only white Christians were hurt and offended by Sept.11. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 495 Registered: 5-2003 |
Sorry if my choice of title for members of the arab world offends some.... I was greatly offended by all of the deaths of Americans. Hurting the feelings of someone named Amir or Fiasal does not register too deeply with me. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 992 Registered: 3-2003 |
Amir, I have found the Ignore feature already exists. Hope you do too. | ||
| Joe (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 158 Registered: 8-2003 |
Jeffrey - is it possible for you to express a conservative viewpoint without resorting to racist name calling? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 494 Registered: 5-2003 |
And lastly... to address the "it's about Oil" crowd.. Let's assume that is part of the issue. SO WHAT? Gee.. As the world's leader, the US takes action to control the direction of which way the OPEC oil flows. HUmmm.... read history.. since OIl became a standard for wealth and power we have been doing that. So... the liberals believe that America should allow the Euro to become the drivng standard for Opec's oil? We should allow America to slip further towards being on the same level as France and Turkey..? Not in this lifetime. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 493 Registered: 5-2003 |
As for the "horrible" losses.... Grow up. 400 SOLDIERS.. I repeat.. SOLDIERS. They are paid to do a job and die if necessary. It is an honorable job and they will recieve an honorable burial. To achieve what they did and only lose 400 lives is amazing. Wonder what the count is for the enemy...? hehehe.. Hell of a lot more than 400. All of the libeal losers here need to be forced to spend time with families from the crew of the COLE and the Trade towers. Then you might understand. As G.W. said... It is not about one group of people... it is about the mindset and risks posed by the entire region. If any nation in the middle east poses a threat to us we will go in and address that threat. And why not..? Who are the Arabs to dictate the safety of the world? Just oil rich towel heads that believe they deserve parity. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 492 Registered: 5-2003 |
AMIR.... Who are you to talk about american lives..? And as for the threats of terrorist action being higher... Where are these attacks... ? During the Clinton years we were hit almost every 6 months in one form or another... since GW... ONCE...Hummm... kill a few towel heads and shake up the middle east and things sure do seem to settle down. Are the arabs happy..? Nope..but who cares. They can pray to allah and shut the F up. | ||
| luciano favero (Ontogenetic1007)
Junior Member Username: Ontogenetic1007 Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2002 |
>Make no mistake it really isn't abotu terrorism I dont think. It isn't about Oil. It is about money and power. may find it interesting - http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html | ||
| luciano favero (Ontogenetic1007)
New member Username: Ontogenetic1007 Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2002 |
>A war that hasn't lessened terror but INCREASED it?? There sure as hell wasn't much organized terror >in Iraq pre-war, there sure is now, lol. Schhh, don't give them any ideas (they already had) >That has alienated us from the world, >this is about an administration as evil >and incompetent as the USA has ever had. Evil implies consciousness. >I could live with Bush senior as could every other Democrat, but, thing is, Bush 43 just ain't no democratic president. > >The guy is a Psycho with power, the most dangerous combination around. \one flew over the cuckoo's nest\ http://www.commondreams.org/ | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 319 Registered: 5-2003 |
Amir... I am responding to Telson's claim about supporting Clark in his last reply. Just merely showing that hypocrites and liars all sleep in the same bed. As for the letters, I think in my first reply to this thread expressed what I thought very simply. If the people who signed the form letters did so voluntarily (AS THOSE WHO WERE CONTACTED AND INTERVIEWED STATED THAT THEY DID) then I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. The "left" merely does not want opposing views to their dogma to be represented to the public at all costs and will do anything to discredit things like this were ever they can. That is "thought control" one of their 5 pillars of politics. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 285 Registered: 2-2003 |
Kds, this thread is about the fake letters that were sent...one individual seems to be the "fall guy" -- supposedly he researched all the names to sign, and he sent them all out all by himself, to over 500 newspapers, while carrying on with his war-time duties. What are your thoughts on that? | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 318 Registered: 5-2003 |
How about that Wesley Clark.....the consumate politician....er political opportunist.....sounds like a die hard right wing Republican to me....so, tell me who lied Telson ??? Did Clark lie too ??? This just too easy....... XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU SEPT 25, 2003 16:05:37 ET XXXXX GENERAL CLARK PRAISED CONDI, POWELL, RUMSFELD AND BUSH: 'WE NEED THEM THERE' **World Exclusive** Democratic presidential hopeful General Wesley Clark offered lavish praise for the Bush Administration and its key players in a speech to Republicans -- just two years ago, the DRUDGE REPORT can reveal! MORE During extended remarks delivered at the Pulaski County GOP Lincoln Day Dinner in Little Rock, Arkansas on May 11, 2001, General Clark declared: "And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, •••• Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there." MORE Clark praised Reagan for improving the military: "We were really helped when President Ronald Reagan came in. I remember non-commissioned officers who were going to retire and they re-enlisted because they believed in President Reagan." Clark continued: "That's the kind of President Ronald Reagan was. He helped our country win the Cold War. He put it behind us in a way no one ever believed would be possible. He was truly a great American leader. And those of us in the Armed Forces loved him, respected him, and tremendously admired him for his great leadership." Clark on President George Bush: "President George Bush had the courage and the vision... and we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship." Clark on American military involvement overseas: "Do you ever ask why it is that these people in these other countries can't solve their own problems without the United States sending its troops over there? And do you ever ask why it is the Europeans, the people that make the Mercedes and the BMW's that got so much money can't put some of that money in their own defense programs and they need us to do their defense for them?" "And I'll tell you what I've learned from Europe is that are a lot of people out in the world who really, really love and admire the United States. Don't you ever believe it when you hear foreign leaders making nasty comments about us. That's them playing to their domestic politics as they misread it. Because when you talk to the people out there, they love us. They love our values. They love what we stand for in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights." -------------- Saturday, Oct. 18, 2003 "About Face" Another videotape has emerged in the Wesley K. Clark collection of kind words for the Bush administration. By MICHAEL WEISSKOPF From Day One as a Democratic presidential candidate, Wesley K. Clark, the retired general, has had to defend his past praise of the president's national security advisers�some of those compliments coming in a speech Clark gave at a GOP fundraising dinner in Little Rock in May, 2001. At that event, he singled out top officials from Vice President Cheney to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, calling them a "great team" and saying that "we need them there." Those remarks raised the hackles of Clark's rivals for the party's nomination, veteran Democrats who questioned whether Clark�who says he voted for Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan�is a closet Republican who changed political stripes out of opportunism. Clark says at the time of that speech he had quiet doubts about Bush's team, but wanted it to succeed. "I still could have hope in early 2001 that this administration would learn its lessons," he said at a recent Democratic candidate debate in Phoenix, Arizona. But another Clark speech recorded by videotape suggests that his hope wasn't snuffed out too quickly. Eight months later, even as some administration officials were making the case for war against Iraq, Clark still applauded the U.S. mission in Afghanistan as he addressed a large audience at Harding University, in Searcy, Arkansas. "I tremendously admire, and I think we all should, the great work done by our commander-in-chief, our president, George Bush," he said in the January 22, 2002 speech. The university provided TIME a videotape of his remarks. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2749 Registered: 6-2001 |
Just put in a new home computer. Testing. Art | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 986 Registered: 3-2003 |
That Caraccilo is one loose cannon. All this and he refused to apologise? And he's not getting disciplined? No one's curious as to who, if anyone, is pulling the strings behind this? Come on! | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2003 |
Good posts, Art, Amir and Jim. Looks like we're getting somewhere, I totally agree that heads need to roll, we need a Regime change at home pronto, lol, 2004 at the latest. How's about Wesley Clark, somebody who, unlike the current incumbent gangsters, is not a personal coward, actually has a clue about national security and how to achieve it, knows how to build and maintain international alliances without which a fight against terror is not feasible, would not start totally unfounded and extremely counter-productive wars of aggression and wouldn't send soldiers to their death for nothing, and would actually have respect for the Constitution and civil rights, judicial due process and freedom at home, and is eminently "electable". Add in ex Wallstreet, ex Clinton Treasury Secretary Rubin for Fed Chairman, and Senator Jon Corzine, ex Goldman Sachs CEO, as Treasury Secretary. Now, that sounds not only like a winning team, but is also, at least in the form of Clark, who I'm supporting. Just a bit more RE the "Fake Letters": While we're still astonished at the audacity displayed by the Bush regime and its spam propaganda scandal, ie those fake "good news" letters from Iraq sent out to 500 newspapers, signed by different soldiers, the whole fabric of this odd little episode is beginning to come apart, revealing a whole other layer underneath. The Pentagon, the local commanders, everyone disclaimed any knowledge of this "good news" factory, and it was only a coincidence that Bush had just launched a major public relations blitzkrieg designed to shore up support for the war. The official story, up until recently, was that a single individual soldier had taken it upon himself to write and circulate the letter, but, as it turned out, this wasn't just any grunt: it was Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo, who is, by any measure, far from ordinary. Caraccilo stepped forward and claimed credit, or blame � the latter occurring in a normal world, and the former in the post-9/11 Bizarro World we live in, where up is down and moral inversion rules. Caraccilo refused to apologize. The letter, he declared, "perfectly reflects what each of these brave soldiers has and continues to accomplish on the ground. With the current and ongoing media focus on casualties and terrorist attacks, we thought it equally important to share with the American public, and especially the folks from our soldier's hometowns, the good news associated with our work in Kirkuk." Military officials, while distancing themselves from Caraccilo's effort, and assuring the media that he had been instructed not to do it again, "said his intentions were honorable," according to USA Today. There are currently no plans to discipline Caraccilo. But there should be, and not just for sending out fake letters. The idea of using the troops in the field as pawns in a propaganda war on the home front is utterly antithetical to our republican form of government: when it comes to the political arena, the military must be strictly neutral in the battle between the contending parties. Caraccilo's crime, directly traceable to our foreign policy of global intervention, is one of the chief corruptions of empire. Far from "honorable," Caraccilo's deception was execrable. What is interesting is that the military high command � an organization not known for cutting slack � would so readily acknowledge, at least implicitly, that Caraccilo's actions were wrong. As Lt. Col. Bill MacDonald, a military spokesman, put it: "It sounded like a good idea at their level [but] it's just not the way to do business. They're not going to do that again. You don't want anybody out there saying I never saw that letter."http://www.suntimes.com/output/news /cst-nws-letter15.html Yet Caraccilo's superiors refuse to punish him in any way, thus inviting a repeat. It's as if the whole dubious operation had been unofficially sanctioned at a higher level, or initiated by some other as yet unnamed agency. This whole incident is highly unusual, but, then again, Caraccilo is himself highly unusual.http://www.fair.org/press-releases /osi-followup.html He is not only a published author and editor, but is also, perhaps, the single most cited soldier in press accounts of the war. Wherever there is a question to be answered, a rationale to articulate, a "good news" perspective to be given on some unfolding disaster, Lt. Col. Caraccilo is at the media's service. Early in the war, before the myth of Iraqi WMD had been discredited, Caraccilo was touting one of the first of many false alarms: several barrels of a mysterious substance (that turned out not to be biological or chemical weapons): "'The weapons inspectors never would have found this stuff,' said Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo, the battalion commander who led the team to the sites. 'It would have taken 40 years.'" http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/Primetime/iraq _barrels030428.html Gee, imagine if we hadn't invaded, hadn't so far taken nearly 400 casualties and thousands wounded, and hadn't run up a bill for $87 billion and rising � we would never have found all that liquified camel dung, or whatever it was, and that woulda been a cryin' shame. http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:t _IjFiHHXdcJ:www.jsonline.com/news/gen /apr03/133542.asp+%22dominic+caraccilo%22 Caraccilo showed up again at the scene of another attempt to somehow rationalize the invasion, touting the capture of "Al Qaeda suspects" in Kirkuk. A Washington Post story places Caraccilo at the center of its narrative, the purpose of which is to convince the reader of the Iraqi-Al Qaeda connection: "The word came at 11:15 a.m. Sunday: al-Qaida suspect in the southeast segment of the city. At the Kirkuk air base, headquarters for the 2nd Battalion of the 503rd Airborne Infantry, U.S. Army Col. Dominic Caraccilo weighed his options. As it turns out, the group in question was Ansar-al-Islam, a shadowy outfit that is only vaguely "linked to Al Qaeda." Citing an anonymous Army officer who questions "how seriously to take reports of Al Qaeda activity," the Post reports "Caraccilo decided the new information seemed solid and potentially important." Yeah, just in time for the reporters � and the photographers. This guy is forever schmoozing with the media, so much so that it almost seems as if that's his primary job. Here he is again, this time handling the squabbling Kurdish factions with admirable aplomb. And yet again, this time in the midst of adoring Iraqis: http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:aJajgDhJ5 FoJ:www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special _packages/iraq/dispatches/5570514.htm+%22Dominic +Caraccilo%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 "The reconnaissance mission, led by Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo, rolled out from Bashur Airfield at dawn yesterday in a convoy of humvees. The paratroopers drew smiles, waves and cheers as they drove through villages in this semiautonomous Kurdish enclave. "'I love you,' one young girl yelled in English at the soldiers. "'Where are you going? Please stay,' another man said in Kurdish as the procession left one area." Wherever there's good news, there is Caraccilo, a one-man harbinger of hope. If the story of the Iraqi invasion is a narrative of liberation and steady success, then he is its central hero, the character through whose eyes we see this war as not only necessary but also kinda fun: "'Nobody wants war,' said Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo, commander of the Second Battalion, 503d Airborne Infantry, one of the brigade's two infantry battalions. 'But this is a paratrooper's dream.'" Even when things look bad, as in this story headlined "Chaos Reigns in Baghdad, Mosul, and Kirkuk," there's Caraccilo, ready with a positive spin: http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news /world/5614374.htm "In Kirkuk, another major northern city, the 173rd Airborne Brigade and special forces planned to begin patrols and set up checkpoints Saturday to stop the looting, said Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo, commander of the 2nd Battalion, 503rd Airborne Infantry. "We will guard key installations and re-establish the rule of law." Not even the lack of food for his troops deters Lt. Colonel Pangloss from seeing the sunny side of near-starvation: "'Should that have happened? No,' said Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo of Seneca Falls, N.Y., commander of the 2nd Battalion, 503rd Infantry. 'It tears my heart out. But sometimes you have to go with what you've got, to the detriment of the individual troops. No one died, and no one got scurvy.'" http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special _packages/iraq/dispatches/6276000.htm Caraccilo is a major journalistic prop of this administration's Iraqi Potemkin Village, with the work his unit is doing in Kirkuk held up as exemplary by the military-media complex, as in this Knight-Ridder piece headlined "In Kirkuk, troops see less violence, fewer attacks": "Soldiers of the 173rd regularly eat and shop in local establishments and interact with residents. By contrast, for example, the 82nd Airborne battalion based in Mahmudiya, south of Baghdad, doesn't allow its troops to buy so much as a can of soda outside their walled and heavily guarded compound off a major highway. "The 173rd's approach is riskier. The houses have been attacked occasionally with rocket-propelled grenades, and one soldier lost his legs in such an attack. But the risk brings rewards, said Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo, who commands the 2nd Battalion, 503rd Infantry, which lives in the city. Soldiers know their neighborhoods intimately and regularly get good tips about potential problems. On Monday, one such tip led to the arrest of some weapons dealers. "'I just don't understand how you could hold yourself out as doing nation-building and not live among the people,' Caraccilo said.'" Instructing us in the glories of "nation-building," while schooling the Kurds in the intricacies of democracy, Caraccilo is a shepherd tending two flocks. In sending those letters out � at taxpayers' expense � Caraccilo was merely playing, on the home front, the same role he has so consistently played abroad as a propagandist for the U.S. war effort. The quick disavowal by the Pentagon to the contrary notwithstanding, it is hard to believe that he plays this role free-lance. In tracing the story of how the Bush regime came to sponsor fake � and in some instances outright forged � "evidence" compiled to justify the invasion, what has come out is a portrait of an intelligence community bitterly divided against itself. That's what the Plame affair is all about, and that could well be what this Spam Scam is all about, too. On the road to war, one faction � the CIA � was telling Bush one thing, while another faction � the neocons, and their own "Office of Special Plans" set up especially for the occasion � fed him information altogether different, but what he wanted to hear. The neocons have been running a lot of rogue operations lately. So it may be that the Pentagon is telling the truth about how they knew nothing of Caraccilo's effort � but somebody did. The question is: who? The same liars who piped lies to Congress have now redirected their efforts at the American people. Whether Caraccilo is part of that operation remains to be seen, but certainly, in the context of the larger unfolding scandal of how we got into this war in the first place, it sure seems highly likely. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2743 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jim: If we were lied to, which I believe happened, Bush, Cheney, et al need a little punishment. Many people died, and a public investigation (yeh, I know it will hurt our ability to collect facts in secret, but this is too important to let that interfer) and if we discover lies, then impeachment, and a criminal trial are in order. We still have to pay for this. That is the most important thing right now. If we don't then our kids, their kids, and a lot of people will live at a lower standard because we refused to pay for our behavior. Art | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2008 Registered: 7-2002 |
wow Art you didn't bash Bush..well til that very last word. Anyway you said nothing I consider way left like you usually do! Do you think we would turn over "control" to the UN though since we are paying for the war and instigated it? I imagine we won't. We just want help so we can offset our costs. As for the leadership I think they wanted exiles as they seem to be more western in their thinking and aren't involved in the current regime. I think they have been trying to avoid letting another power hungry person take over if we elect locals. I think we need to keep some troops there until things are organized or else all was for nothing. Not sure we need 200K over there, but if we pulled out now would everything just revert? They are not established enough to live on their own yet. Lining the pockets for $40MM for AK47's? Hadn't heard that one. Only rationale I can think of is you disarm everyone then give weapons to the good guys. Still seems backwards though. As for the world anger problem that is a real issue. Not sure it will ever go away until we do. We can't pull out of everywhere and cease to influence the region. Seems everything is coming to a head between western judeochristian and islam beliefs. It is being turned in to a war on religion which it wasn't meant to be. They are spin doctoring their own version of the truth on the other side as well. If the people buy into the religious aspect then that is their cause/motto I would imagine. I do agree that if we were flat out lied to then heads need to roll. There is no accountability in gov't anymore. I realize that in some cases ya gotta do what ya gotta do because it is necessary, but spending several hundred billion and invading countries should not be a decision made over a game of golf. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2742 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jim: I agree that we have to get something done with Iraq. While I agree with Telson & Amir about the lies told to us to start the war, bottom line is that we did it, now we have to find a solution on the way out. My first issue is: why haven't we gotten sure that we've established a government there, who are popular with the residents. We've been there for 4 months, and it appears that the council we appointed were all exiles, very few were living there. We haven't appointed Sunnis in proportion to their numbers, and long term that is going to cause us problems. My solution is this: give up control to the UN or NATO. Stop trying to enrich our friends, and get the balance of the world involved. An example of enriching our friends is the sale, for 40 million, of AK 47 to the Iraqi military. Duh, on the one side we're destroying these weapons found in civilian hands, on the other one of our little rich friends is selling the weapons to the Iraqi government. Stupid or criminial, I'll let you decide. The next thing we need to do, is to get our boys out of Iraq, soon. Fix what we broke in the war, let them fix the rest. After that has occurred, we need to fix the anger the balance of the world has directed as us. That, I suspect will take some time. The way to do that, is to act responsibly, not go off on our own, unless it is directly in our interest to do so (not when we frabricate our own little war, or threat to justify same). We have a major problem with our support for Israel. While I absolutely believe that Israel should exist, I have strong disagreements with its current government, and its policies. I think that the Saudi plan would have worked, if Israel had elected to make a few small changes in it. As long as Israel is continuing to place settlements in the occupied terrorities, that area will never be peaceful. We need to do something about that. Lastly, as to those responsible for getting us into this war, we need an independant investigation, in public, of the issues which got us there. Lastly, we need to pay for what we've done. That means higher taxes. The 80s were screwed up because Lyndon Johnson & Richard Nixon thought we could have guns and butter. They were wrong, and inflation, recession, etc. followed a few years after the Viet Nam war was over. Same thing here. Wanna play, gotta pay. Get a look at Joe Bidden's web page and his stance. It's a real shame that he isn't running for President, because I think he makes the most sense of anyone (including Bush). Art | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 282 Registered: 2-2003 |
Too true. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2005 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think they are the same organization or closely related. Anyway my point in bringing all that up is not to promote conspiracy theories but rather that we live in a very complex world economy with huge powers at the controls with enormous influence and who can cause catastrophic consequences to actions so stability is a key factor. also it makes it very difficult to implement simple feel good plans which I think we all agree woudl be nice. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2004 Registered: 7-2002 |
But Amir you are asking the people who stand to lose the most to preach the benefits of abandoning the existing system and pay for it. The public doesn't care. They just want a good paying job whether it be oil or whatever. it is like the tobacco companies having to pay billions to people for having a bad habit and then they have to pay to advertise not to use our product because it is harmful. Do they make auto mfg or beer companies promote that "hey you might die if you use our product" | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 281 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jim, you talking about Baer's books? I have read them all. The second one was a lot of fact, with very little pulling it all together. Some compelling stuff, but all in all, much weaker than the first book, where he provides compelling evidence about who bombed the US Marines barracks in Beirut. Agree with you that the Muslim Brotherhood is the real problem. And that was definitely proved in Robert Baer's latest book, Sleeping With The Devil. I think Jemaat Islamiya is another name for the Muslim Brotherhood, but I could be wrong. If they are separate movements, they are very closely intertwined. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2003 Registered: 7-2002 |
I didn't mean to draw that direct line. The real problem is not Afghanistan or Iraq it is an underground group called The Muslim Brotherhood. Read the Saudi Crude book I mention. Very intersting by a long term CIA guy who did all his tours in MidEast. I think Osama is a targeted figure head and the Taliban were harboring him. Not sure how they led to Iraq other than unfinished biz over there and Saddam openly willing to aid in those who want to overthrow us. I think it was an oportunistic approach to the whole deal. Don't forget Iraq is oil rich and there were and are talks to build a pipeline across afghanistan by Unocal. Hard to do when you have unstable gov'ts in power. Make no mistake it really isn't abotu terrorism I dont think. It isn't about Oil. It is about money and power. Always has been always will be. man has an insatiable appetite to conquer. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 280 Registered: 2-2003 |
Don't sacrifice American lives for the sake of oil. I agree, but when billions of $$ are at stake it is the cost of doing business and ensuring our standard of living and way of life. The simple answer is ween us off of saudi crude, but do you think Texaco, Exxon, Shell, Mobil, Citgo, Chevron, RaceTrac, QuikTrip, CircleK, 7-Eleven and all the refineries, trucking companies, pipelines, brokerage firms and banks adn the millions of employees want that to happen? Whoever instigates that plan will be publicy crucified by both sides or they will be assasinated or mysteriously end up in a fatal car crash. True. It's an entrenched problem/system. That is the real war we should be fighting. Openly. Anyone who stands to lose their income will always protest when they feel threatened. Look at auto unions. An action plan to defeat that would be paid training, and job placement assistance in new industries for oil-industry workers. Plus a massive PR campaign to educate the public on why it is necessary and why it is good. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 279 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jim, I can't believe you connect 9/11 with Iraq. THERE IS NO CONNECTION. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2002 Registered: 7-2002 |
Don't start a war for no reason. Then don't crash 4 jets full of our citizens into our buildings. Don't declare jihad against all americans and vow to wipe them from the face of the earth. Don't try to feed the public BS. I agree but I doubt it will ever happen. The commom citizen is not capable of the truth just like Colonel Nathan R. Jesup "you can't handle the truth" Most people want to live in the clouds and assume everything will be fine. THey have no concept of foreign policy or world economics or even local economics. Don't sacrifice American lives for the sake of oil. I agree, but when billions of $$ are at stake it is the cost of doing business and ensuring our standard of living and way of life. The simple answer is ween us off of saudi crude, but do you think Texaco, Exxon, Shell, Mobil, Citgo, Chevron, RaceTrac, QuikTrip, CircleK, 7-Eleven and all the refineries, trucking companies, pipelines, brokerage firms and banks adn the millions of employees want that to happen? Whoever instigates that plan will be publicy crucified by both sides or they will be assasinated or mysteriously end up in a fatal car crash. Don't try to spin away your mistakes. I agree. I think sometimes the best defense is to just say we were wrong. If that is so easy though then why couldn't clinton just say "hey, my private affairs are my business. My wife and I are working on our problems" I would have respected that more than what happened. It isn't just Repubs that dodge the truth. Is this alternate action plan specific enough? All great ideas now how do you implement them and retain power and keep everyone happy at the same time? You should mail your suggestions to the Democratic party as elections are coming up. Seriously I bet if they used that as their platform they would get elected despite that they would not implement a single line item you mention. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1026 Registered: 2-2003 |
Telson - "unprecedented war of aggression based on ZILCH but lies" Totally true. Saddam really cared for his people. It was his country to do what he wanted with and we had no right to interfere because of past human rights violations and threats. After all, we manipulated him into being our enemy. If there was so much support from the international community, why doesn't Saddam approach them, form an alliance of nations and get put back into power again? Oh, thats right. Saddam didn't have any friends. Do I need to get his one friend a tissue? Spare us the rhetoric. Telson - "A war that hasn't lessened terror but INCREASED it??" You seem pretty sure. Do you want a job at the dept. of Homeland Security? We need people with that attitude. Telson - "That has alienated us from the world" When have we haven't been? Telson - "is costing us BILLIONS we didn't have in the first place" Uhh, if you understand anything about economics and government spending, when have we ever not operated under debt? Our national "credit" rating is the strength of our currency. Telson - "Thsi ain't about partisan politics any more" Telson - "I could live with Bush senior as could every other Democrat, but, thing is, Bush 43 just ain't no democratic president." After reading both of those statements back to back, I just had to laugh!! Classic. Telson - "The guy is a Psycho with power, the most dangerous combination around." I agree. One of the most lackluster Presidents we had. How does the line from Gladiator go, "He will bring them death, and they will love him for it." Time for a change. But I give him a thank you for instilling fear in our enemies and lowering taxes, aside from being a source of comic relief. I'm surprised he succeeded in doing that! So, Telson, whats your take on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? LOL Sunny | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 277 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ok, here's the "left-winger" solution. Don't start a war for no reason. Don't try to feed the public BS. Don't sacrifice American lives for the sake of oil. Don't try to spin away your mistakes. Is this alternate action plan specific enough? | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2001 Registered: 7-2002 |
If you read some books you will find that all wars are based on lies fed to the public with hidden agendas. The civil war was not about slavery it was about trade between North/South and Europe. Lincoln only wanted to save the union at whatever cost. He sold it to the public based on "freedom" as they didn't care about taxes and tarriffs. Why is Bush a pyscho? I think there are several things going on. Some lies, some stretched truths, some based on fears and some based on no options but to move forward. Hindsight is 20/20. What would you have done after 9/11? I think we got cornered with no good solutions. Do nothing and appear weak and vulnerable or do something. Also, it was a window of opportunity to try to prove a point and wipe out terrorism which is hard. At the beginning they said this will take years not weeks or months. Also, by liberating Iraq, taking it over whatever you want to call it we are establishing a democracy right in the middle of the arab world. I agree it does seem to be going off the deep end, but what do you do? If the answer is so simple then please tell us what you think it is. There is alot more going on that any of us are privy to, but the powers that be have their agendas and countries and people are just pawns in the game. Doesn't matter if it is Bush or Clinton or whoever. It is bigger than them. Here are some recent books I have read. Maybe you all should read them too then see how simple it all is and how difficult it would be to implement your simple answer. Sleeping With the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude The Immaculate Deception: The Bush Crime Family Exposed Who's Who of the Elite : Members of the Bilderbergs, Council on Foreign Relations. Bloodlines of the Illuminati. The Creature from Jekyll Island: The Federal Reserve. and a couple others I can't think of now on the march towards global socialism. | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 109 Registered: 8-2003 |
Jim, wowza, what's there to be said about an unprecedented war of aggression based on ZILCH but lies that has signalled to the world at large that it's high time to stockpile up their arsenals with some REAL WMD's and that it's perfectly OK to go start some crazy wars of their own??? A war that hasn't lessened terror but INCREASED it?? There sure as hell wasn't much organized terror in Iraq pre-war, there sure is now, lol. That has alienated us from the world, is costing us BILLIONS we didn't have in the first place, and where Al Qaeda was largely left to it's own devices, if you'll ignore the massive recruiting drive we financed for Al Qaeda, as Bush chose to go on a private vendetta, much easier to accomplish after all than really tackling terrorism ?? Thsi ain't about partisan politics any more, this is about an administration as evil and incompetent as the USA has ever had. I could live with Bush senior as could every other Democrat, but, thing is, Bush 43 just ain't no democratic president. The guy is a Psycho with power, the most dangerous combination around. ""There is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks. Indeed Saddam's goals have little in common with the terrorists who threaten us, and there is little incentive for him to make common cause with them. Don't attack Saddam. It would undermine our antiterror efforts." Brent Scowcroft National Security Advisor to Presidents Gerald Ford & George Bush senior Wall Street Journal, 15 Aug 2002 QED | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2000 Registered: 7-2002 |
what upsets me is the kneejerk reactions the public has. We are used to our want it now, fast food mentality so if something isn't done in 1 day it is too long. What would americans think of the cost of WW1 if it were to happen today? What about the time frame of past wars? Years and Millions of lives for a cause. So here we are 6 months in and a few hundred casualties and CNN is calling it a failure because they interviewed some toothless wonder in a trailer or a political analyst who disagreed. What infuriats me about left wingers is you NEVER EVER offer a viable solution. You just attack the right and claim foul. You think the world can simply just exist in harmony with green stamps and camp fires and sing alongs. Democrats are the major proponents of Socialism and think that gov't agencies should control everything as they know best. I admit that Bush isn't perfect. I admit Clinton wasn't perfect. But they didn't create the world we live in. They try to shape it and move it and maneuver within its confines hopefully to all our best interests but certainly to thier own interests and those who influence them. I have yet to hear a left winger admit any fault on their party yet I seem to always see right wingers say we think we are right, but yes there are flaws. | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thx Amir, hehe, our tiny, albeit tenacious, minority of resident rightwingers here are resorting to exactly what Bush is doing: in extraordinary incoherence and total lack of facts slandering the critics and all and anything that doesn't fit in their phantasy make-believe world based on nothing but great personal insecurity and subsequent tremendous hatred against everything they cannot comprehend or that doesn't fit in their narrow minded view of the world. In a last minute attempt to salvage what was to be salvaged out of this major PR gaffe White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Tuesday he didn't have details of the letter-writing campaign and referred questions to military commanders. ""The intention was good but the delivery system was probably not a good way to do it because of misperceptions that could be taken," MacDonald said. "You don't want anybody out there saying I never saw that letter." As it says in the article:"But none of the soldiers said he wrote it, and one said he didn't even sign it." Only I'd bet that nation wide nobody is falling for their BS anymore, the fact of the matter is that, as sad as it is to have to die for lies, every single body bag out of Iraq is another nail in the coffin of the right wing extremist Bush Administration. Sayonara Bush: "CNN Poll Shows Increased Doubts About Iraq War, Bush WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Most Americans now believe the Iraq war was not worth it, according to CBS News/New York Times poll released on Thursday which showed a sharp fall in public confidence in President Bush's ability to handle foreign and economic policy issues. Just over a year before the Nov. 2004 election, a solid majority, 56 percent, of Americans thought the country was seriously on the wrong track, the poll found." http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp? floc=NW_3- T&oldflok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/ story/0002%2F20031002%2F213349161. htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20031001CDH111  | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 274 Registered: 2-2003 |
Wrong, Kds. I bet most of the signatories are not even aware that their name is on the letter. Or who it is being sent to. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 313 Registered: 5-2003 |
Has nobody here ever received a form letter before from a politician...or for that matter a credit card company ? All that matters is that they were sent voluntarily and that the signatories agreed with the text of said letter. That much is apparent from reading the text of the C&P. It is not a fake letter....Telson is a liar. | ||
| Nibblesworth (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 751 Registered: 11-2002 |
BROTHER BRUCE: BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR. THANKS A LOT, SIZZLECHEST. I THOUGHT WE WERE DONE WITH HIM. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 270 Registered: 2-2003 |
This is his commentary on the post, I think: You may have read recently that the Bush Admin is on a Spin Propaganda Offensive over the Iraq quagmire that is entirely of it's own making. Conveniently for the administration, letters from soldiers stationed in Iraq detailing the alleged great progress of the rebuilding process have been showing up in local newspapers all over the country recently. But here's a funny thing - they're all identical. Oh, sure, they're signed by different soldiers, but strangely the wording of each letter is exactly the same. And not only that, but when Gannett News Service contacted several of the soldiers who supposedly authored the letters, none of them had any idea who wrote them, lol. And that of course in the face of facts where 3-6 GIs are dying each and every week for a war based on lies, and where according to Commanding Officer Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the Guerrillas are becoming ever more lethal, complex and tenacious. And I don't see him insulting anyone. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1996 Registered: 7-2002 |
I am all for varied opinions, but this guy doesn't seem to do any critical analysis or offer any alternate suggestions. He simply insults and sits back and watches. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Advanced Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 3348 Registered: 4-2002 |
AMIR, MY BROTHER HES NOT POSTING, HE IS ATTACHING AND POSTING.......... | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2003 |
What nonsense. Why should Telson not post this? You don't have to respond if you don't like what Telson is posting. Telson, you keep right on posting. And thanks for trying to open some people's eyes. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Advanced Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 3347 Registered: 4-2002 |
KEN DONT WASTE YOUR BREATHE | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Intermediate Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 1378 Registered: 8-2001 |
Telson, no one wants to hear it. | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 107 Registered: 8-2003 |
You may have read recently that the Bush Admin is on a Spin Propaganda Offensive over the Iraq quagmire that is entirely of it's own making. Conveniently for the administration, letters from soldiers stationed in Iraq detailing the alleged great progress of the rebuilding process have been showing up in local newspapers all over the country recently. But here's a funny thing - they're all identical. Oh, sure, they're signed by different soldiers, but strangely the wording of each letter is exactly the same. And not only that, but when Gannett News Service contacted several of the soldiers who supposedly authored the letters, none of them had any idea who wrote them, lol. And that of course in the face of facts where 3-6 GIs are dying each and every week for a war based on lies, and where according to Commanding Officer Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the Guerrillas are becoming ever more lethal, complex and tenacious. "Many soldiers, same letter The Olympian, Olympia Washington Newspapers around U.S. get identical missives from Iraq WASHINGTON -- Letters from hometown soldiers describing their successes rebuilding Iraq have been appearing in newspapers across the country as U.S. public opinion on the mission sours. And all the letters are the same. A Gannett News Service search found identical letters from different soldiers with the 2nd Battalion of the 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment, also known as "The Rock," in 11 newspapers, including Snohomish, Wash. The Olympian received two identical letters signed by different hometown soldiers: Spc. Joshua Ackler and Spc. Alex Marois, who is now a sergeant. The paper declined to run either because of a policy not to publish form letters. The five-paragraph letter talks about the soldiers' efforts to re-establish police and fire departments, and build water and sewer plants in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk, where the unit is based. "The quality of life and security for the citizens has been largely restored, and we are a large part of why that has happened," the letter reads. It describes people waving at passing troops and children running up to shake their hands and say thank you. It's not clear who wrote the letter or organized sending it to soldiers' hometown papers. Six soldiers reached by GNS directly or through their families said they agreed with the letter's thrust. But none of the soldiers said he wrote it, and one said he didn't even sign it. Marois, 23, told his family he signed the letter, said Moya Marois, his stepmother. But she said he was puzzled why it was sent to the newspaper in Olympia. He attended high school in Olympia but no longer considers the city home, she said. Moya Marois and Alex's father, Les, now live near Kooskia, Idaho. A seventh soldier didn't know about the letter until his father congratulated him for getting it published in the local newspaper in Beckley, W.Va. "When I told him he wrote such a good letter, he said: 'What letter?' " Timothy Deaconson said Friday, recalling the phone conversation he had with his son, Nick. "This is just not his (writing) style." He spoke to his son, Pfc. Nick Deaconson, at a hospital where he was recovering from a grenade explosion that left shrapnel in both his legs. Sgt. Christopher Shelton, who signed a letter that ran in the Snohomish Herald, said Friday that his platoon sergeant had distributed the letter and asked soldiers for the names of their hometown newspapers. Soldiers were asked to sign the letter if they agreed with it, said Shelton, whose shoulder was wounded during an ambush earlier this year. "Everything it said is dead accurate. We've done a really good job," he said by phone from Italy, where he was preparing to return to Iraq. Sgt. Todd Oliver, a spokesman for the 173rd Airborne Brigade, which counts the 503rd as one of its units, said he was told a soldier wrote the letter, but he didn't know who. He said the brigade's public affairs unit was not involved. "When he asked other soldiers in his unit to sign it, they did," Oliver explained in an e-mail response to a GNS inquiry. "Someone, somewhere along the way, took it upon themselves to mail it to the various editors of newspapers across the country." Lt. Col. Bill MacDonald, a spokesman for the 4th infantry Division that is heading operations in north-central Iraq, said he had not heard about the letter-writing campaign. Neither had Lt. Cmdr. Nick Balice, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command in Tampa, Fla. A recent poll suggests that Americans are increasingly skeptical of America's prolonged involvement in Iraq. A USA Today-CNN-Gallup Poll released Sept. 23 found 50 percent believe that the situation in Iraq was worth going to war over, down from 73 percent in April. The letter talks about the soldiers' mission, saying, "one thousand of my fellow soldiers and I parachuted from ten jumbo jets." It describes Kirkuk as "a hot and dusty city of just over a million people." It tells about the progress they have made. "The fruits of all our soldiers' efforts are clearly visible in the streets of Kirkuk today. There is very little trash in the streets, many more people in the markets and shops, and children have returned to school," the letter reads. "I am proud of the work we are doing here in Iraq and I hope all of your readers are as well." Sgt. Shawn Grueser of Poca, W.Va., said he spoke to a military public affairs officer whose name he couldn't remember about his accomplishments in Iraq for what he thought was a news release to be sent to his hometown paper in Charleston, W.Va. But the 2nd Battalion soldier said he did not sign any letter. Although Grueser said he agrees with the letter's sentiments, he was uncomfortable that a letter with his signature did not contain his own words or spell out his own accomplishments. "It makes it look like you cheated on a test, and everybody got the same grade," Grueser said by phone from a base in Italy where he had just arrived from Iraq. Moya Marois said she is proud of her stepson Alex, the former Olympia resident. But she worries that the letter tries to give legitimacy to a war she doesn't think was justified. "We're going to support our son," she said. But "there are a lot of Americans that are not in support of this war that would like to see them returned home, and think it's going to get worse." http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/ 20031011/frontpage/121390.shtml  |