| Author | Message | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2917 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ben there's a bit more to it than that. First off it makes a lot more HP that most F 8's. Secondly it only requires oil changes every 20K and no engine service till 100k so it's much cheaper to maintain. In addition on the turbo you get self leveling, adj ride height, adj shock dampening, huge brakes, and about 20 other items. P car's in general are much more car for the $ than F cars. Compare a GT2 to a 360 the new Carrera to an Enzo. The turbo Cayanne to the Kubang. There are many reason's for buying an F car. Car per $ ain't one of them. | ||
| Nibblesworth (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 795 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ben, I would guess the $50k is dished out in the following ways: 1. Extra cost of engine parts, probably around $2k @ cost. 2. Extra cost of engine engieering, probably around $5k. 3. Extra cost of getting a US/DOT EPA certification, probably around $20k/car. 3. Extra cost of owning the most powerful SUV in the world, probably around $20k. There you have it! | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Intermediate Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 1139 Registered: 6-2002 |
So is anyone else begging the question now, "Why the HELL does Porsche get to charge a $50k premium for a different engine option, on a $40k car?!" A replacement Ferrari V8 isn't even that dear. The Turbo Cayenne is pretty amazing though. As a rescue vehicle to quickly get to crashed REAL CARS on the track, it's pretty good  Best! Ben. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2908 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mike I agree that for the $ your truck is the best deal. I also think the torureg is better value. Lexus is too bland for me. $ aside the Turbo is really something. The more she let's me drive it the more impressed I am. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 285 Registered: 2-2003 |
Porche whored them selves out IMHO. But the new Porche carrera GT is good penance! | ||
| Mike Fernandez (Mbmike)
New member Username: Mbmike Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2003 |
James, I had thought that my 4Runner had 235hp, but I looked it up and it only has 183. Of course, that only makes it more embarassing for Porsche that their new V6 Cayenne will only tie it with even 65 more horsepower. I think they Cayenne Turbo is an amazing car. This new V6 Cayenne, though, I'm not so sure about. At this price point, I don't really see the point. My 4Runner cost about $35,000, I think, and it was a great investment. My parents bought it in 1996, which I believe was the first model year for the revision. It's been extremely reliable. It's probably not as comfortable as the Porsche (but then, the "luxury SUV" market didn't exist when we bought this car), but I wouldn't pay what will probably be a $10,000 premium just to "own a Porsche," especially when you arn't gonna get that Porsche performance. On the other hand, my dad just got a new Lexus GX470. In my opinion, it's the nicest luxury SUV out there right now. For luxury, I think the GX470 is where its at. For sport, nothing can compete with the Cayenne Turbo. I just don't see where this V6 Cayenne is gonna fit in well. | ||
| todd (Flat12)
Junior Member Username: Flat12 Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2003 |
http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/carreragt/modelinformation/experience/sounds/default.htm AND..The SUV!! http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/cayenne/cayenneturbo/experience/sounds/default.htm | ||
| todd (Flat12)
Junior Member Username: Flat12 Post Number: 66 Registered: 7-2003 |
"Get behind the wheel of a GT 2 for a while, and you wouldn't care if the badge on the car said MATTEL. Its loads of fun to drive" YUP 911's are meant to be driven | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1001 Registered: 10-2001 |
1,500 units $440,000 3,000 pounds (200 lighter than ENZO) 605hp At least Porsche got balance between price and production numbers correct on their supercar. I wish Ferrari was this smart....I might be able to drive a used ENZO one day.  | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1699 Registered: 12-2001 |
Get behind the wheel of a GT 2 for a while, and you wouldn't care if the badge on the car said MATTEL. Its loads of fun to drive. I note that, with all the exclusivity surrounding our favorite marque, the value of 550 Maranellos continues to plummet, even though the car is still probably one of the best cars on the planet and certainly one of the best all around cars ferrari has probably ever made. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2899 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mike How much HP does your truck have? I think my wife's Turbo Cayanne has 450. 4 runner's are great trucks but they are NOTHING like Turbo Cayannes. As for racing I bet we see one of these running Paris to Dakar before too long. | ||
| todd (Flat12)
Junior Member Username: Flat12 Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2003 |
No Way, The 944 was an "entry" level and didn't hurt Porsche at all. The 996 prices are becasue it is just not as well made as the air-cooled car.. Period...Porsche has always been a status vehicle but also a drivable car. They make more, they cost less and are far cheaper to drive and maintain than a Ferrari. Too totally different ideas in a car. Both sports cars but it about ends there. a 911 GT2 is a 911 GT2 no matter if Porsche makes a mountain bike or not. Porsche has been clear about this thing from the beginiing and it's purpose. To keep them independent. I don't think people feel like Cadillacs are "less prestige(if they ever were), just because the same mother company builds cavaliers. The Cayanne is a very impressive vehicle. It is great on and off road. The MSRP is a tad above 40K on this V6 model. And it has the same suspension as the up models. This puts in with Envoy, Yukon, Tahoe, Lexus, Navigator, X5 ect ect. I'd get one in a heatbeat if I was in the market for a SUV in that price range. And it tows like 7500lbs! I was worried when the "S" was costing so much but this rounds it out. If you want prestige buy a 911. I agree it will piss off a few Porsche owners to have "common folk" driving a Porsche just like the 924/944 did, BUT a 911 is still 80K in basic trim so the prestige is there if one is after that. I bought a GMC Envoy last year and it was pretty pricey in some respect..If I had the Cayanee V6 option at that time it would have bben in my driveway. what does confuse me though is being a joint effort with VW, how did they let them get away with this. I know it will have the VW motor, and the specs on it look good, but at 40K for the POrsche, who the hell would buy the Toureg?? | ||
| Augustine J. Staino (Azzuro328)
Member Username: Azzuro328 Post Number: 624 Registered: 4-2003 |
I've read in a few of the Euro mags that Porsche management had looked into producing several "niche" vehicles including a large sedan and, believe it or not, even a pickup variant aimed at the U.S. I don't know if they will ever do this, but just the the idea that they were considering it upsets me. I have to stop writing now before I get sick.  | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 6453 Registered: 5-2001 |
>Obviously bean counters and boards are running the car companies. < I can not agree more. This is the long term downfall but shortterm success. What is Porsche? Why do people like Porsche and everybody wants a Porsche? They have history. The brand has achieved a certain status in the world and the word makes wallets fly open. By deluting the name and the brand and the image to the "everyone can afford one" you will eventually lose the prestige associated with the brand. Prices on the used car market will crumble (you can already see this heavy on the 996) and prestige will drop even further. In a few years Porsche will stand for nothing. A nice car but nothing else. Companies like Lamborghini and Ferrari will profit from that. The enthusiasts will flock to the "hand made" brands to buy something unique, not what Mrs. X drives to the grocery market. | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2003 |
Ferrari's econobox (relatively speaking) is of course the Maserati. Again relatively speaking (I'd take a Maserati- great looking car.) | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 344 Registered: 5-2003 |
FWIW, the 6 cylinder Cayenne is coming to NA from what I have read. Why I do not know....when dealer inventories for the Cayenne "S" are at astronomical levels and deep discounting is prevalent on a brand new model, IMHO it's a recipe for disaster. I predict that the Cayenne will be the demise of PAG as a one of the few remaining stand alone car companies. And they are already building the volume econo box someone worried about....it's called the Boxster. | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 317 Registered: 1-2002 |
Kenny Maybe the V6 is for the European market, where gas is three times as expensive. I would think twice before I would get a TT in the Netherlands. $125 to fill up every 250 miles? Rijk | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 401 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hubert, I disagree with you completely. The reason the "who wouldn't want a porsche?" thing exists is because of the BRAND IMAGE that Porsche has worked VERY hard to create! And they did this with building expensive, high-performance vehicles. So yes, they can probably sell many of the V6 Cayennes, but they will also reduce sales on their 911 Turbos, GT2's and other vehicles because they drag themselves downmarket when they sell "cheap" cars. The same thing could apply to Ferrari... what if Ferrari started to make a $30k entry-level sports car? Would that not detract from the allure of Ferrari? I think so. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1056 Registered: 2-2003 |
I can choke down the Cayenne in all its variants as long as its limited to the Cayenne and they don't start building luxury or mass produced econo cars. *shiver* I guess, even then, if it allows them to build the 911 and variants, they can make me a lunch pail with the Porsche emblem and I'd secretly thank the bean counters when the new sports car comes out. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 976 Registered: 3-2002 |
Realize that most people who buy these cars are not interested in "street/track" "race" "cars." I frequent Rennlist on occasions. There are all kinds of P-car enthusiasts that have complained that the GT-3 is too narrow focused. They do not like the fact that the car is lacking some torque (compared to the 996TT) and is packing a firm ride. They are more interested in torque and a softer ride in the 996TT. Some have turned in to the dealer there "new" GT-3 after a few days for the TT. There are not many drivers that want a Sunday AM canyon racer. Most of the faithful mention how the U.S. market should be happy that; at least they got the GT-2/3. They did not unfortunately bring in the GT-3RS for the USA. There must be a reason for them to not offer everything in their line up to the best market they have. Could it be the drivers here want a more plush car ? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1582 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>Porsche figures it is more important for you to fit a 32oz drink in your cup holder, than have a rollbar for the track. << that's only in the US (as you know, ralph), and the clubsport pkgs. aren't offered here for fear of porsche NA getting sued b/c a car was used as intended, and the operator injured as a result; i think the demise of the "sports car" and the unique vision it carried is both a comment on americas influence on global trends, and a commentary on the consumer mindset in this country. ps: the rest of the world is not so keen with the pepper and it's new found "offspring." | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Intermediate Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 1422 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ralph, Ferrari's doing its fair share of watering with Acer Ferrari Labtops, Ferrari shoes, Ferrari cologne etc.. It's only a matter of time unfortunately. Hopefully TVR will stay close to its roots. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 975 Registered: 3-2002 |
Kenny the days of narrow focused marques are coming to an end. Obviously bean counters and boards are running the car companies. These people may not have a clue as to what the marque should stand for. They just look at the market and figure that a window of opportunity has arisen with the advent of the SUV. The SUV P-car is going to sell much more units than the GT-3 with a stiff suspension. PNAG does not sell the Club Sport option on the GT-3. They will not sell enough units with the CS option to warrant crashing several vehicles for the DOT requirements. Porsche figures it is more important for you to fit a 32oz drink in your cup holder, than have a rollbar for the track. | ||
| Mike Fernandez (Mbmike)
New member Username: Mbmike Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2003 |
Um, my Toyota 4Runner can do 0-60 in 9 seconds, I'm pretty sure, and that new Cayenna thing only has about 15 more horsepower. I was cool with the idea of Porsche making a super-SUV, as the Cayenne Turbo undoubtedly is, but making a car which performs no better than my Toyota, and probably costs lot more, definately harms the brand name. Porsche shouldn't be a mass market brand. They should do their own thing and do it well, as they have been doing, rather than trying to gain market share. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Intermediate Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 1421 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hubert, even though the Cayenne Turbo is a great car, I couldn't justify spending double the price of a V6 which is extremely similar for the power. I know James and Rjik swear by it but still.. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1580 Registered: 1-2002 |
kenny: what it comes down to is: who wouldn't want a porsche? and, since suv's are the best thing since bubble gum (these days) why not ? the egg and the cayanne are essentially the same car (shared plant -- the exception is the cayanne has it's engine built in another place, and some misc. finsihing touches, but essentially the same car). So, why not offer a more affordable pkg? Sure, suv's have dilluted the automotive world. Sure, the collective enthusiast contingent is losing out day by day as true sports cars become less and less affordable, but look at the "big picture." The automotive world no longer needs people like us, en masse, but rather they need the collective attention spans, and wallets, of those that want the newest thing, and can afford to pay for it. Truth be told, the pepper, and the egg, are great for what they are, but the bad thing is ... their presence hasn't made the gt2 , nor the gt3, any more affordable to those that want them; it's always about the money. always. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Intermediate Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 1420 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hubert, don't get me wrong, I still love them, but why would VW do this, they have the Toureg in there, they don't need the Porsche. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1579 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yah, but then there's the gt2, gt3 and carrera gt on the way. Personally, I think porsche is still giving it's enthusiast contingent what it wants -- as an aside, a lot of new gt3 owners have actually lambasted the gt3 as being too "harsh/hard" of a car, and were actually expecting a cushier ride. So, who is it that's lost their "vision"? IMO, porsche's only true "dillution" of it's marque (history) is their reluctance to get back into factory backed racing, but that's an entirely different story. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Intermediate Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 1419 Registered: 8-2001 |
V6 Cayenne to compete with the same trucks as the Toureg, what's the point? "Porsche AG today announced the introduction of a third Cayenne model, which will be powered by a six-cylinder engine. It will debut at the Frankfurt Auto Show in September and subsequently go on sale in Germany and Europe. Once it is introduced in North America during the first half of 2004, this latest Cayenne model -- named simply Cayenne -- will feature the same standard-setting on- and off-pavement capabilities of its V8-powered siblings while offering its own impressive performance figures. It can accelerate from 0 to 62 mph (0 to 100 km/h) in 9.1 seconds and has a top test track speed of 133 mph (214 km/h). The Cayenne will have a V6 engine, the first ever offered in a Porsche. Engineers at Porsche further developed the stock engine and modified it for the most severe off-pavement driving conditions. It has four valves per cylinder and produces 247 horsepower (SAE) at 6,000 rpm and 229 lb.-ft. of torque between 2,500 and 5,500 rpm. This latest addition to the Cayenne line-up will expand Porsche's potential customer base within the high-end SUV segment and will provide more opportunities for Porsche's 204 North American dealers. First V6 in Porsche history, It'll prolly complete with the likes of a ML350 or X5 3.0, good power plant, wish they used it in something else." |