| Author | Message | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 501 Registered: 9-2002 |
Sorry to hear that Rob, Been in the same boat over here, whilst a free market is good, all these firms who outsource to asia are forgeting one simple thing, if everbody does it and the US and European economies really do go to Sh1t then who's going to buy there products and services then? personally I like to be able to meet face to face with people whom I do business with as such I wont use firms who outsource their call centres | ||
| Kjell Nelin (Kjell)
New member Username: Kjell Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2001 |
opps I only meant one cartoon to show up not the whole page! Kjell | ||
| Kjell Nelin (Kjell)
New member Username: Kjell Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2001 |
this says it all http://cagle.slate.msn.com/politicalcartoons/PCcartoons/PCbest5.asp Kjell | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 859 Registered: 4-2002 |
There is lots of successful offshore software development going on. I worked for a consulting company a couple of years ago that did nothing but manage and direct offshore based projects. I was a project manager. I would be on site with the client managing the project, defining scope, etc. I had two INCREDIBLE Indian programmers working on site as well. Every evening we sent updated specs and such to the programmers in India. Every morning we downloaded the new code base to compile and test. This resulted basically in a 24 hour work cycle. Doing the testing and integration on site was key. The end result for the customer was a very high quality product, done very quickly and for much less than they could do it internally or through a local consultant. I really dont see how a company could simply send an entire project offshore. There has to be qualified onsite management for it to work. But still.... that means if there are 30 people dedicated to a large project, 3 of them will be living and working in the USA... 27 will be in India. Sorry to hear about the job Rob. You may want to look into starting a consulting company that helps companies outsource their IT. Either be the guy managing the offshore development effort.. or get out of IT. I see the bulk of the high tech sector in the this nation leaving in the next 5 years. It is going to be treated as a commodity product. Just like manufacturing, at the end of the day the bean counters will rule and cheaper will be better. As to the belief in fair trade and open markets... I agree. But I also agree that the USA needs to look out for AMERICANS. If that means taking action to ensure high paying jobs here dont become low paying jobs there.... do it. | ||
| Mfennell70 (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 193 Registered: 7-2001 |
Has anyone heard of a successful offshore software development? I'm personally aware of two and they were both disasters. Nearly everything that came back had to be rewritten. I've had H1 Indian guys work for me and it was supreme frustration. They were competent in a "here's an EXACT specification, with every detail written down" sense but the language barrier made dynamic, quick paced development a head banger and that was with them in the room with me. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 400 Registered: 5-2003 |
Sorry to hear that Rob. I hope you are not in too much self inflicted pain this morning. | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 217 Registered: 8-2003 |
Rob, sorry to hear that, but don't let your head hang, I'm totally convinced that good software people will always find a good job, even if it may take just a bit longer right now, but you'll be ok. http://intellimatch.softwarejobs.com/ www.vault.com (check out the boards under "industries" there} www.wetfeet.com Good luck ! | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Intermediate Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 1160 Registered: 12-2001 |
Rob, sorry to hear that. | ||
| Ronald C. Steinhoff (Buylowsellnever)
Junior Member Username: Buylowsellnever Post Number: 123 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hey Rob, I'm really, really sorry to hear about your job situation. Hopefully you'll find some work soon  | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1243 Registered: 4-2002 |
The dirty little secret is that as many as 50% of all IT jobs will be in India (or similar) in the next 5 years. The internet has made it simple enough for a tech in India to log onto your computer and fix issues just as easily as an American tech (or anywhere else). The skilled workforce is willing to work at 15% of the american workforce pay scale. In other locals the pay scale is even less (r.e. China). At least the Indians can speak clear (queens) english! Just exactly how are we going to continue to grow our economy when most of the better jobs are overseas? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6774 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well, I just lost my job this week to EDS, who will offshore everything to India. It's impacting me personally. It's a personal conflict because I believe in a free market and no restrictions, however, that's also allowing the execs to do what they did. Happened to manufacturing in the 70's and now the white collars. For my work specifically I think my company is making a huge mistake. The execs are looking at our work as a commodity and that's why they think they can offshore us. However, only 10% of our job is really cranking out code. Any gerbil can do that with a coding for dummies book. What makes us valuable and professionals is the relationships we have with our customers that use the systems we develop. We truly care about producing a quality product because we our emotionally attached to their pain. They also know who to contact when reporting bugs, suggesting enhancements, or informing us of business rule/process changes. There's also the relationship the development team as with each other. My company has over 400 applications written in about every technology and they are all interfaced one way or another. The 5 to 20 years all of us have been here have created a body of knowledge and relationships that problems can be efficiently resolved. When our code goes to India, the 90% that isn't a commodity will be at imminent risk. However, only two execs truly believe in the off shoring and that's the CEO/CIO. Both of them were hired recently because they have done it at other companies. Actually, only 2 years after doing it at other companies. The fact is that it looks good on paper to the shareholders and at 2 years the bottom line shows a decrease in costs. In 5 to 10 years when the quality of the applications has degraded, the offshorers raise prices so there's no cost savings, and you can't all of a sudden rehire the 4,000 people you fired 5 years ago. That's when the •••• will hit the fan and the only two people that made the decision and believed in it will be long gone. Here's a good related article... Subject: FW: twist on outsourcing article The Hidden Costs of IT Outsourcing Business Week Online - October 27, 2003 Keith Franklin, president of Empowered Software Solutions in Burr Ridge, Ill., loves offshore outsourcing. It means more work for his 40-person company. Just last year, ESS, which specializes in developing applications for Microsoft's .Net platform for Web services, earned $500,000 in revenues from fixing buggy software written in India. It took ESS five months to repair a glitch-filled application for a Web portal. Most pages on the site weren't connected, turning updating into a nightmare. Some code was missing. The shoddy work didn't come cheap, either: The Indian outsourcer went $1 million overbudget. Franklin says he could have done the project for less than $900,000 -- right here in the U.S. Indeed, offshoring -- sending work overseas -- isn't always all it's made out to be. Particularly with information technology, which can be a lot more complicated than moving traditional manufacturing operations overseas. IT quality is much more difficult to gauge, says Atul Vashistha, chairman and CEO of info-tech offshoring consultancy neoIT in San Ramon, Calif. And since IT is an integral part of every business process, it requires more communication and management. Offshore IT outsourcing started to soar during the economic downturn. With their companies' sales squeezed and shareholders screaming bloody murder, many CEOs began mandating that some IT work be sent overseas. They were following the lead of big companies, including chipmaker Intel (INTC) and software giant Microsoft (MSFT), that already do considerable software development in India and Russia. With the trend gaining momentum, more than 40% of U.S. companies will develop software or test it, offer tech support, or provide storage functions overseas by 2004, according to market consultancy Gartner (see BW, 10/27/03, "All The World's A Call Center"). "DIRTY LITTLE SECRET." On paper, it looks extremely attractive. A Russian programmer charges 80% less than an American. But when you parse it all out, the total cost of offshoring a given IT job is generally comparable to getting the work done domestically, says Tom Weakland, a partner at management consultancy DiamondCluster. It's just that few companies are aware of these real costs. "Most companies can't accurately measure their productivity and costs prior to and after outsourcing," says Weakland. "Most look just at wages." A few companies have learned the lesson the hard way. A year ago, 100% of neoIT's business came from consulting companies wishing to go offshore. Today, about 25% to 30% of its business relates to fixing problems, says Vashistha. Most companies don't want to advertise the problems they've run into, of course. "It's a dirty little secret," says Michael Mah, managing partner at software consultancy QSM Associates, based in Pittsfield, Mass. "There could be more crashed projects in the next 6 to 12 months." One weakness of moving support functions overseas is that it leaves no one on-site to help customers. Take publishing-software maker Quark. For the last year it has based its English-speaking tech-support staff -- people you call if your app keeps crashing -- in India. Kamar Aulakh, Quark's president, claims that the move hasn't affected service quality or caused any customers to flee. He says his support staff is able to resolve problems over the phone. But the trend leaves some customers worried. BACKWARD PRIORITIES. As Empowered Software has discovered, programs developed by offshore outsourcers are also often buggier than software programmed domestically -- usually 35% to 40% more so, estimates Mah. "If a company makes software for flying airplanes, I wouldn't want [it] to be created with the priority of the deadline coming first and quality coming second," he says. And if a financial application used by, say, a bank distorts crucial information such as trading data, a customer could sue or withdraw its business. Should such problems arise, the U.S. company can't easily turn around and sue its applications-development outsourcer overseas. Fixing even small bugs can cost up to 10 times more after the software is written than at the design stages, Mah says. And some offshore-outsourcing companies charge extra for fixing bugs after delivery. In a worst-case scenario, a company could end up feeling like it's in that old Dilbert cartoon in which the pointy-haired boss promises $10 for every bug fix -- and a programmer decides to code himself a new minivan. MIDNIGHT OIL. Costs add up even when offshoring is done right. Many companies tend to send expatriates to set up their operations abroad -- and their wages usually run high. Then there's the price of additional executive travel. And, ideally, offshore employees are also brought into the U.S. for several months for extensive training in language and culture. More important is the cost and inconvenience of managing offshore crews. When privately held software maker Elance outsourced some of its development to India last October, its domestic engineers had to work past 10 p.m. every day to communicate with the Indian team. Even now, they have to work late a couple of nights a week, says Fabio Rosati, Elance's president and CEO. Some companies also have to change their internal processes to accommodate offshore partners. Some decide to open branches abroad, where they have more control over how work is done. And others are diversifying their offshore outsourcing. Last November, Electronic Data Systems (EDS) unveiled its Best Shore Initiative, designed to help clients pick the best offshore location. The locations have to pass tough guidelines for quality of work, infrastructure, and low cost. One reason for the initiative, says Dan Zadorozny, EDS's vice-president for application-services delivery, is that labor costs in traditional outsourcing powerhouses such as India are escalating. Already, an entry-level programmer costs more there than in Argentina, he says -- which is where he's increasingly sending clients. DOMESTIC SOURCES. Software companies that facilitate communication between customers and their offshore vendors are also prospering. Elance's software, already used by shipping giant FedEx (FDX), General Electric (GE), and cell-phone maker Motorola (MOT), allows companies to track specifications, compile an audit trail of what was communicated to whom, and measure performance against hundreds of pages of contracts. The company declines to disclose its annual sales, but Rosati says they're doubling every year. Other companies hope to lure disillusioned outsourcing customers back home to the U.S. In October, RTTS, a privately held test-automation consultant, unveiled a testing service that works just like one offshore -- only it's delivered out of New York. By doing the testing remotely, as Indian outfits do, rather than on-site, RTTS can match the price of Indian companies. "It's the same model as India, but there are no time-zone and language issues to deal with," explains Bill Hayduk, director of professional services for RTTS, whose customers range from pharmaceutical to insurance companies. "Customers going offshore aren't happy with the quality they're getting. So we think there's a big opportunity for us." The outsourcing trend is unlikely to reverse any time soon, however. Pressured by lower-cost competitors, U.S. companies like the instant gratification of savings on wages. But as the real costs of IT outsourcing become apparent over time, many companies may come to realize that it's no panacea. | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 631 Registered: 2-2001 |
Forbes says 30,000 US jobs have been outsourced so far to India, Viet Nam and Hounduras. By 2005 that figure is predicted to be 3 MILLION. That's 3 million unemployeed in next 2-3 years. Do not mistake the fact that low interst rates are suckering consumers into over-spending (thus forcing the GDP up)as economic recovery. These projected 3 million jobs being lost to India will not be replaced by comparable jobs. A large portion of these folks will loose their houses, cars and many will have to go Chapter 11. Any American who has a job that does not entail direct face to face interfacing with customers is at risk. All computer firms so far, and most call centers (and now BofA) are sending jobs overseas. Whether your are a $25k a year call screener or a $120k a year software/hardware diagnostician, you will loose your job in the next year or so to someone named Patel. You don't need to be an Allan Greenspan to figure out what 3 million added to the unemployment rolls will do to the economy (its at about 600k unemployed now). Here's who will be bennefiting in the comming years: MAJOR stock holders, CEO's and corporate vice-presidents. Loosers: service industry workers, and any lien holders: mortgage companies, auto loan lenders and credit card companies. Creating jobs? Where? America no longer manufactures anything but second rate cars; service industry is being outsourced overseas; illegal immigrants have all the good fruit picking and motel jobs. Retail is only as good as the job market. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 3255 Registered: 1-2002 |
that hurts... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6771 Registered: 12-2000 |
Only thing I was doing in 1983 was kicking dirt up on girls at recess.  | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 3253 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rob, I know it's no consolation, but the job market ALWAYS lags the economy. Look back to 1983-1984, when the Reagan economy expanded the economy at a record rate. It took until about 1986 or so for unemployment to come down to where it is today!!! Same as when Clinton was prez: economy started expanding in 1994 or so, but unemployment was high until 1998 or so...IIRC | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6768 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well all I care at this point is the job market and it's getting better, but still sucks. Companies are learning to do the same with much less. So you're either one of those doing the more (past 2 years my team of 8 was laid off, but I was still here and we had similar responsibilities) or you're still out of a job. That doesn't seem like a good economy from my perspective. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 857 Registered: 4-2002 |
Well... 3Q GDP came in even higher than I predicted at up 7.2% the highest increase in 19 years. Everything is up across the board... consumer spending and business investment. Weak economy? Stop complaining.... because its just not true. If the numbers are to be believed.... everything is rosy, its 1998 all over again! Of coarse interest rates are starting to resume their upward climb. They are not as high as I thought they would be by this time, but all the positive new economic news will accelerate the increase. I would expect the Fed to begin tightening probably by Febuary. Im still expecting 10 year bond yields to exceed 6% by late spring 2004. DOW 10,000 should fall within weeks if not days.... and I think it will top out by spring at around 10,500. BUT... when we dont see a dramatic and sustained improvement in the jobs sector, and increased interest rates begin to impact growth and stocks... watch out. Q3 2004 GDP will be flat. Discuss amongst yourselves..... |