| Author | Message | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
Junior Member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2001 |
Just as an update, Paypal "notified" me today that my Paypal account is in negative balance (well, there's a surprise) and they want me to correct this within 120 days or my Paypal account would be frozen pending an investigation (which they are supposedly doing right now - or NOT according to the previous posts). If you recall, Troy, from Paypal states the matter will be cleared up within 75 days. Another surprise: I have not heard from Alex Hou, the buyer. Alex, if you're listening - what goes around, comes around and I am very patient... Anybody live in/near Maitland, Florida?? | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 448 Registered: 5-2003 |
Okay, so working around network security may have made me a professional paranoid.  . If it comes down to signing with PP or dropping Fchat ... I'll have to find another forum.  I've had enough troubles with "real" banks, much less trusting my money to a group with no office to storm into. Heck, after reading the fine print, I'm even staying away from e/bay. No way I'll give PP even an email address, much less a bank account. Rob, please find an alternate payment method. | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 199 Registered: 8-2003 |
oops - deleted double post | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 198 Registered: 8-2003 |
Guys - thanks for not hammering me too much. I think this was a disagreement that was keep friendly. I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I would re-state that for the purposes Rob was considering, we as subscribers would have absolutely no risk in paying Rob by PayPal. I have a credit card linked account. E.g they do not even have my bank info. I do not have any money in any PayPal account - so nothing to seize or freeze. MICHAEL - that is nice that you would pay Rob by cashiers check, money order, personal check, etc, however, Rob likely does not want to manually process thousands of checks and worry about bounced check follow-up, manual record keeping etc. So while it is convenient for you to process one check ... Lastly - I think almost all - I repeat, almost all disatisfaction with PayPal is related to ebay and primarily ebay merchants who did not get paid properly or had their receipts frozen while a customer complaint was investigated. Now that is serious stuff and I do not dismiss this as trivial and never have. I have seen the EBAY merchant complaints - but how are they related to this scenario? Please explain. My point continues to be that there is ZERO increased risk for a person with a credit card only account which is used to pay a small fee for service or subscription. If you want to boycott PayPal because of their EBAY complaints or environmental position or coffee break policy please do so. But to boycott PP for the risk on this type of scenario might not make sense. Again - in my area you would not be playing soccer or enrolling your kid in after school activities if you boycotted PayPal for simple service payments. There are 31 million registered users - find me a few payers that had their accounts drained or over charges for non-Ebay non-goods type transactions. I will say I was very enlightened by the merchant stories and based on them would not sell any merchandise via Ebay / PayPal. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Intermediate Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 1192 Registered: 6-2002 |
" Where is the risk to someone opening an account (2 mins) linked only to credit card and paying Rob for a subscription? " PayPal can now capture your credit card up to your credit limit. They can then say they did so to recoup some 'fraud' that can be either a real, or completely fabricated charge against you. When you try to get VISA to reverse your charges, PayPal will point to the part of your agreement where you FORFIT YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO WITH PAYPAL. They have enough pull to make that stick. I was one of the very first users of PayPal, before they even thought of bank accounts IIRC. In the begining it was great, but the company has allowed the criminals to turn the company into their moral equals. Paypal has sunk beneth their level in trying to stop fraud. Needless to say, I cancled that CC and bank account. That is your ONLY protection. Cut all ties and get out. You cannot 'close' the PayPal account and keep your bank account #. (no matter what they say.) Rob- PM me about credit cards, in a previous life I did much work in transaction processing systems. These days Authorize.net is very easy and good, and Verisign Payment Services is as close to being on-line inside the CC's systems as you can get these days. Both allow for CC and ACH (e-check) transactions, and both are quite secure institutions in my expierence. | ||
| todd (Flat12)
Junior Member Username: Flat12 Post Number: 95 Registered: 7-2003 |
What about C2it? | ||
| MICHAEL MORETT (Thecarreaper)
Junior Member Username: Thecarreaper Post Number: 58 Registered: 9-2003 |
my statement.... there is no way in hell i am going to give the paypal morons my info for any reason. i will send Rob a money order, cashiers check, personal check .... ect. no paypal. i have what i have from hard HARD work and i am not going to take the risk of getting screwed. i am so close to a f car purchase i can see the cars freaking shadow in the garage... ( wishful ghost image ??? ). no offense to Mike550, but i will repectfully decline the invitation to screw up my standing with my banks. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
Junior Member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 138 Registered: 10-2001 |
OK, I've heard enough. I'm done with PayPal and if it costs me $610 it's a tough lesson, but I'll survive. I sure seem to have touched a nerve though. Now, if I could get everyone who hates PayPal to send me a dollar.... | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 2053 Registered: 11-2001 |
with friends like dan.....  doody. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1868 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mike: you're fighting it to add a sense of balance to the discussion. You feel compelled, I understand. But I do not think people posting here are doing so lightly and w/o cause. --Dan | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1867 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mike, While I can't speak for Doody (btw, thanks for the kind words - none are applicable to Doody, though! ), I can say that my mistrust of such an organization doesn't stand solely on the fact that I will be shafted, although, as Amir points out, that is an inherent risk. My own non-use comes from standing for the fact that I think the organization is corrupt in practices and acts, and as such I will not condone their actions by employing their services. Besides, I'm sure Rob will be more than happy to receive cash! ;) *cough irs cough* --Dan | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 197 Registered: 8-2003 |
Amir - they dont have my bank account info - how could they freeze it? Even if they did they cannot and have not ever frozen someones personal bank account. The freezing that is talked about is the ebay account of merchants I think. I've heard enough of the ebay stories to last a while but I ask again... Where is the risk to someone opening an account (2 mins) linked only to credit card and paying Rob for a subscription? Well I am off to catch a flight back from Bangkok to the U.S. so I wont be able to fight the Pay Pal fight for a while - nor do I know why I am. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1034 Registered: 10-2001 |
"Dude, you gotta say "this is a quote from another person ..." Thanks for clearing it up in the subsequent post." Mike depends if you read F-chat from left to right,.. or Bottom to top like Rob does things around here I really wasn't going to post so much! Just found the explanation logical. Who knows if its true? My own personal experience. I could not get started with PayPal. I set up an account and they asked me for more info before they would get me going. I told them to go to HELL when they asked me for more documents ( my Bank needed less info when I bought a house). Geezzes I was just going to bid on some Homer Simpson stickers for $5.00 on ebay. So maybe I was part of their test program... When they asked for all that info up front, I walked away. Now it makes more senses to freeze your account once money is in it.. and then black-mail you for tons of financial info. How well do you trust their McStaff? | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 331 Registered: 2-2003 |
Mike550, I suspect the following can happen: You send Rob money through PayPal, Rob transfers money out of his PayPal account, and, next thing you know, your bank account has been frozen and you've lost access to a LOT of YOUR OWN cash. After months of aggravation, if you stick it out...they decide to tell you that they're keeping the money... | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 196 Registered: 8-2003 |
Mark I took it at first that you were the middle managment guy and were speaking from experience. I gave your story much more thought when I thought it was you personally. It was not clear at all that this was a cut and paste job from "ex paypal guy" on the paypalsucks board. Dude, you gotta say "this is a quote from another person ..." Thanks for clearing it up in the subsequent post. http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?fid=6&tid=1529&old_block=0 I sometimes take those things from disgruntled employees with a grain of salt. But I do understand that there are problems relating to EBAY - especially merchants and frozen accounts. Just dont see the PP risk with payments to Rob. I imagine one can find an American Express is lame.com a Bank of America is lousy.com and cash is overrated.com if you look hard enough. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1033 Registered: 10-2001 |
expay-palguy, I just read your message and want to thank you for your time and effort. Your message was well written and to the point. After six weeks of fighting with Paypal, after my account was hacked into and $500 removed from my checking account, I am throwing in the towel. I got my $500 back from my bank. Paypal still has the proceeds of several of my eBay sales and I will obviously never get that money back. It was an expensive lesson. From now on I deal only in cash....Frank ([email protected]) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frank Edson MORE IDEAS Ex-paypal guy- if you are going to use PP 1. Give PP only ONE account to access, then make sure that the monies are cleaned out the moment deposited funds become available- and transferred to an account that PP can't touch. 2. After somebody has paid you through PP, NEVER do business with that individual a SECOND time- at least not through Pay Pal. This is a huge red flag to them, since scammers who get hold of a good credit card number but don't know the spending limit will "hammer" it through the same PP account several times until it's maxed . Don't forget- they're looking for ANY remote justification for siezing your money- since under the "terms and conditions" you agreed that this was OK with you. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 433 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rob, Check Authorize.net. They have been good to us, and they have a very easy to implement interface. Their service is resold through tons of folks. I have two accounts on authorize - one through "Card Services Intl" and one through Wells Fargo. | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 632 Registered: 2-2001 |
I just cancelled my PayPal account....had no idea all the potential problems!! | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 195 Registered: 8-2003 |
Mike B - I am just saying the subtract the EBay and Merchant problems - I did not find evidence where using PayPal to pay a friend or to pay a subscription has caused problems. It does appear that there are plenty of merchant complaints - mainly ebay related and plenty of stories about frozen merchant accounts. But I am still wondering how this is related to the individual paying a small amount to Ferrari Chat? I did say I feel bad (and do) for Jim. I realize that so far the posters on this thread have had problems - I think they have been ebay merchant related. And, I sympathize with them all! Where is the risk in this scenario Rob is talking about? And I still think that almost all will be willing to use PayPal to sign up here. The ones that don't perhaps object to a fee at all for this chat board. I think the number of chatters that will not pay due to PayPal vs other method will be small and the trade off (however sad) worth it to Rob. Members that do not pay via Pay Pal will be missed (but they will miss posting) and reading certain areas) but the show will go on. FYI, those that object would not be playing soccer in my league or signing their kids up for after school activities - kinda hard to boycott that. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6784 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well, this has been a great discussion. I've been enlightened a little bit. I'm looking at credit card interfaces for the future. To being with we might be stuck with PayPal or sending me a check that you have to wait 5-9 days on. Hopefully I will have a good cc interface installed before the end of 6 months when our core users subscribe for the first time. | ||
| Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Member Username: Qferrari Post Number: 513 Registered: 2-2002 |
Mike550- Obviously you've had a sh*tload of positive experiences with them with no trouble and I can definitely see your point of view. Hell, if I had that many positive experiences with a firm, I'd sing their praises myself. I appreciate your understanding my point. Hopefully, Rob will entertain other payment options. If not, is it worth me giving up FChat for??? HELL NO!! | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1032 Registered: 10-2001 |
http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?fid=6&tid=1529&old_block=0 Here's the link at paypalsucks.com I was just going to post a few clips from the ex-paypal guy.. but so much of it was interesting. There is more. | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 194 Registered: 8-2003 |
Marq - I respect that. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 432 Registered: 12-2002 |
Mike, Everyone in this thread has a lot of negative stuff to say about PayPal - one guy even worked there and told a lot. But you come along and claim everyone will use it, because they will have no choice, and how you investigated these stories and they are BS, or they are irrelevant, and how you never heard of anyone having a problem. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but that is mildly insulting. Almost every single person I know who had a problem with PayPal was a "long time customer" prior. The bottom line is PayPal handles sensitive financial information, and they are UNregulated. Nobody can say they are as trustworthy as a bank, because they are not! But they have access to the same sort of information about us all. That is why using PayPal is a no-no. People SHOULD be scared of using PayPal, not because some folks were victims of Internet fraud, but because they do abuse their system to their own ends. Mark, Thanks for posting that. In my case, I was approached by a customer looking to do a buy on a lot of product. He wanted to pay with PayPal. I had heard of it (my father used it frequently) so I signed up. This guy was getting lots of payments from various customers, and then when his "sale" ended, he PayPal'ed me the money. I confirmed it was in my PayPal account, and did a "transfer to bank account", and when it was in my account, I shipped the product. Then a couple of weeks later, I see several THOUSAND dollars missing from my bank account. I look, and it was withdrawn by PayPal. Thinking I was hacked, I log in to see that my account is "under review by the fraud prevention group". I call and they basically quote what it says on their site. I ask to talk to someone in that group and I am told I cannot speak with them. I ask for the last name of who I am speaking to and I am told I can only have their first name, and not their extension, and I cannot call back and speak to them directly. I ask how long their "investigation" will take and I am told "until it's done". When I asked if they have a max limit on it, they say no. So I say "you're telling me you are doing an investigation, and until it's done you have withdrawn the money from my bank account, and you don't know when or even IF you will ever give me the money back, and I can't speak to anyone about this investigation nor can I have a contact to speak to at PayPal?". "Yes sir that is correct" <click>. I was lucky... I found a guy who worked there that I was somewhat friends with. he told me to get the seller to claim I never shipped the product, which would "automagically" end the investigation, because PayPal would return the $$. We did that, and lucky he was honest and sent me a check, because otherwise I would have been totally screwed. And why was I being checked for fraud prevention? Because a guy getting PayPal'ed money from various sources and then forwarding the amount on to another source is one of their "triggers" for a fraud check. That's all. So don't ever PayPal money on behalf of your friends, or they may go into your checking account and sieze the money there. I will NEVER use PayPal for anything, EVER. And if someone requires I do, I don't do business with them. I would mail Rob bills in an envelope before I do PayPal. And it's not out of spite or because of a boycott, it is simply because in order to even send $1 to someone by PayPal, I must give up WAY more information than I care to - and I am at their mercy as to what they may do with it at some later date. For those who are watching this wondering if it's a real issue or just some people working off their sour grapes, check the sites listed. There are various class action lawsuits against PayPal, they are and have been investigated by various government offices, and there are multiple lawsuits and other investigations going on against them. May as well "invest" with Enron | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 193 Registered: 8-2003 |
Marq - I dont know why I find myself defending Pay Pal - other than I think some here are completely off base when it comes to PayPal risk as it relates to paying a fee to Rob Lay. I am not sure what you base this on, but PP has 31 million users with a record growth rate and millions of merchants / websites and busineses - and growing daily. When you say more and more business do not accept Pay Pal - what does this mean? More decide not to accept PP than decide to accept PayPal and sign up daily? Or percentage wise on a historical basis are more deciding not to accept PP? Does this mean merchants are switching away from PayPal? Where did you get your quatitative info? I would imagine that you are correct when you say that some do not like PP due to the fees - but that will be Rob's decision. Again - I ask, where is the evidence to demonstrate real risk to us as subscribers to paying Rob via PayPal that would not be there if paying directly by check or credit card? | ||
| Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Member Username: Qferrari Post Number: 512 Registered: 2-2002 |
Not an issue as to Rob's honesty. Also not an issue as to furnishing 'proof' of accounts being emptied via duplicate withdrawals. The issue here (for me) is not wanting to do business with or give business to a firm that has these types of morals,etc..I had problems with them and simply do not wish to give them any business. Especially after hearing what goes on inside. Thanks, again, Mark. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1031 Registered: 10-2001 |
End of story from ex-paypal employee at paypalsucks.com For buyers the answer is real simple: NEVER use PP under any circumstances. Ever. You simply have NO control over who has access to your information, and your bank wouldn't touch some of these PP people with a ten-foot pole. Want to use a credit card to pay for an auction item but don't want to get double and fraudently billed? Go down to the bank, use that same credit card to buy a cashiers check, then mail it to the seller. You have the exact same protection doing business that way as you do through Pay Pal, but you avoid the numerous risks of involving yourself with them- which, of course, go WAY beyond having to eat a thousand dollar loss because some guy didn't send your merchandise. Any attorney who has a pending class-action suit against Pay-Pal and could benefit from my testimony can contact me at: [email protected]. Similary, I'd love to hear from any former Pay-Pal managers who also feel morally obligated to "come out of the closet". I KNOW you know what this company is all about- and perhaps it's time we did the right thing by the people we unwittingly helped them loot. It would help me sleep better at night- how about you? Sorry, as much as I feel for you individual victims, I won't deal with individual court actions against PP- as to do so would doubtlessly consume ALL of my time | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1030 Registered: 10-2001 |
If you ARE frozen, accept the reality that this isn't some mistake that can be corrected by an e-mail or phone call to a nice customer service person; you've been SCREWED, and it's NO accident or misunderstanding. This company is now your enemy and is probably not inclined to do anything to help you, unless you're one of those unfrozen for "show" purposed as described above- but I'll bet they don't even account for 2%. So don't waste your time with "customer-no-service" e-mails and phone calls. Yes, most of the contact numbers listed on this site are accurate and the people listed are real employees- but believe me; they generally have NO power to say anything but "NO." If you've been frozen, your "case" goes to a special group within "customer service" who's entire mission statement could be summed up as "we've got the money, we're going to keep the money, so explain this to the customer in any plausible fashion- as long as the final answer remains ''we get to keep the money'." Also, these folks will oftern be extremely rude to you- which is all part of the plan; you weren't really supposed to call them in the first place, and they don't want you to even THINK about calling back. Those repeated requests for copies of drivers licences and so forth are simply a ruse and a stall tactic. Believe me... they KNOW who you are, and this information does NOT keep getting misplaced. They're wearing you down, and it usually works. By the THIRD request for you to gather and send the same information, they most people will simply give up and say "it's not worth it." Don't threaten to sue or waste your money having a lawyer send PP a threatening letter, 'cause it dosen't work. People who SAY "I'm gonna sue" DON'T 99.9% of the time, and PP know this. What DOES work is to hire an attorney and actually FILE SUIT. When they're hit with requests for discovery and are faced with having to send executives to depositions and so forth- most of the time your case will be "re-investigated". You'll then be cleared and your money will be returned. If that dosen't fix it, then, for some reason Pay-Pay must really, really feel that you ARE scamming. Most people simply won't go this far, since hiring an attorney, filing suit and so forth actually exceeds what PP has taken from you- and believe me, they DO know this. | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 192 Registered: 8-2003 |
Mark - assuming Rob is honest - does your story ( a good one) relate to our risk (the buyer) of using Pay Pal to pay a subscription fee to Rob. I did not find any real life examples of someones credit card being drained by duplicate small subscription or service payments. I would imagine that if Pay Pal accidentally processed a $30 subscription twice Rob might issue a refund. It would take alot of $30 duplicate payments to drain an account. Who has not had a double credit card charge? These can be resolved and I doubt whether this incident is any higher on PP than non PP credit card purchases - web based or otherwise. Again - please forward examples of an account being drained by hundreds of duplicate payments - especially where it was not merchant (read Rob Lay) fraud. | ||
| Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Member Username: Qferrari Post Number: 511 Registered: 2-2002 |
Problems must be becoming more evident as you come across more and more businesses and individuals that not only do not list PayPal as an accepted form of payment but they specifically state "NO PAYPAL ACCEPTED". I'm sure that some are fee-related,though. Thanks for the 'inside' word, Mark...enlightening to say the least! If FChat uses PayPal, I'll let BRUCE pay my subscription and I'll give him some batteries in exchange. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1029 Registered: 10-2001 |
This is the part I worry about... PayPal has very lax hiring procedures, ESPECIALLY compared to the standards any bank would impose on anybody employed in a similar position of trust. People find their credit cards suddenly drained and/ or billed multiple times for the same transaction. Employees have access to ALL of a customer's personal information. Yes, it's scary. Schemes are rampent where a PP employee has a cousin or friend set up an account to receive payments in another name. Many people have been quietly terminated (rarely, if ever prosecuted- since this would be a huge black eye for the company), and in reality, THIS is where the majority of PP security and investigative resources go: to policing their shoddily-selected workforce. | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 191 Registered: 8-2003 |
PayPal is great - I have used them for a long time and so have most of my friends. A quick poll of my friends and family reveals over 2,000 transactions without a single problem. This month I have used them over 30 times. Here is the last week alone:  Doody / Dan - I am quite sure you will be paying by Pay Pal vs not joining. Between the two of you, there are 4,000 posts. (Doody - you can't be serious about a mailed check. - You think Rob has the bandwidth to manually process thousands of checks?). Doody - Dan no beef with you guys Love your car Doody! Just think you are scaring off Rob's customers for no reasons. Please provide some examples or statistics of where making a $40 payment for a service or subscription or PP check to a friend has caused a problem for the person making the payment. Literally hundreds of thousands of people make such daily payments for Little League, school bills, friends, etc - without problem - not to mention the millions per month on Ebay. My soccer league only accepts Pay Pal - and most on the team did not have a PP account prior to joining the league this year and everyone got one and paid via PP - and there were no problems. The league had the same initial reaction from a few that did not want to pay via PP (for whatever reason) - but they all did - soccer was more important than boycotting PP. It will be the same here - people that do not subscribe to Ferrari chat will be doing so not because of Pay Pal, rather, they will just be opposed to a fee. And there will not be that many real aficionados - read daily posters - that will not subscribe [hopefully Mr. Green does not like PayPal] I did search the the internet and the Pay Pal "wall of shame complaints" to try and find examples where small payments for services or subscriptions resulted in problems for the payee that were not related to Ebay - e.g. overcharges, extra charges, Almost all Pay Pal complaints are EBAY related and almost all involve the "seller" not delivering the goods or right goods or are EBAY merchant complaints about payers or frozen accounts. I could not find a single example of someone paying for a service or subscription (from a credit card only linked account) that had a problem. They could be out there - and should be based on the millions of transactions - but if they are out there are they at a higher rate than straight non PP credit cards transactions? I have never met anyone who had a problem. For the transactions Rob is talking about - small subscription payments there is absolutely minimal risk to the payer. Rob is aware of the fee he is charged and can factor that into his business model and weigh this against the conveniences that PP offers. But I repeat for straight payments for subscription there is minimal Pay Pal transaction risk. Just the risk that Rob does not allow you access but keeps your payment or the site goes under. But you are no worse off than having paid by cash, check or credit card. In fact your payment receipt will be easier to find on PayPal. I sympathize with Jim - that is horrible. This does not seem right as they should have verified the credit card first. But this same thing could have happened with check - where the bank later says - no the funds were not there (I have heard cases of this) or credit card reverses. I wish you the best Jim. Rob you provide a great service here and an enhancement to our daily Ferrari lives! Thank you and sign me up -- Via PAY PAL. I don't have thousands of posts - but I read thousands of posts and have withdrawals when I am away too long. Final disclaimers - 1) absolutely no affiliation with Pay Pal - just use it as a great tool that has helped simplify my life. 2) Doody / Dan keep up the good posts! | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1028 Registered: 10-2001 |
Wow...this is Too much! I was a "middle management type" with Pay-Pal until leaving recently- partally due to my disgust over their internal security policies which have led to the mountain of complaints seen on this and other similar boards. There aren't many PP whistleblowers; during your "exit interview" a soon-to-be-former manager is warned, intimidated and threatened against doing the very thing I'm doing right now. But since I left to start my own business, there's not a thing they can do to me. Pay-Pal DID start as an honest, legitimate company with an innovative service concept. However, in my opinion, this concept can never actually WORK in the real world because there are legions of scammers all over the globe with reams of stolen credit card info and identifications just WAITING to swoop down on any new "payment service" like this that comes along. Credit-card transactions where the "card is not present" and thus personally examined by a clerk account for the overwhelming majority of fraud transactions. Comparitavely, there's very LITTLE credit card fraud at Wal-Mart, because the cashieractually sees both you and the card- and can ask for supporting identification at the point of sale. Unfortunatly, the high-risk, "card not present" transactions are the ONLY kind of transaction a company like PP can do, and boy- did the con artists find them in a hurry! The basic con was (and is) to use stolen identification information to open new PP accounts, funnel money into them with stolen credit card numbers, then transfer the money OUT of the account before PP gets the charge-back and can freeze it. Unfortunately, despite PP's claims of having a "tough anti-fraud program", these people are mostly impossible to catch, because when opening a new PP account, they DO have all the proper-appearing ID information (which was stolen or conned out of unsuspecting individuals, most of whom have never HEARD of Pay-Pal). When fraud is uncovered and the account is checked out, the perp is almost never caught, since it was almost always opened under a stolen identity, and he's long abandoned the mail-drop. Yes, the application process COULD be made more stringent, but it is felt (probably correctly) that a brand-new customer would certainly balk at doing things like sending in notorized copies of their driver's licence and so forth. So an alternate strategy" for offsetting the charge-back losses slowly evolved at PP. It's the perfect scheme really; since PP can't usually catch the scammers and dosen't want to loose customer base by making things more stringent to start with- they decided to simply re-coup their chargebacks from the pockets (and accounts) of good, solid people under the easily-defensible and impossible-to-criticize guize of "Fraud Prevention and Enforcement".. Simply put, if you're a seller and somebody pays you with a stolen credit card, you're targeted by PP security and might very well have your account siezed, investigated", closed- and the money retained by PP. (Yes... they simply "add" it to their revenues and spend it like any other income. You basically gave them permission to do this under the "terms and conditions" you originally agreed to. No, I KNOW you didn't really read it, but I bet you will the next time!). Even if the person paying you has NOT used a stolen credit card, he could have been been flagged by PP as "somebody to keep an eye on" for any one of numerous reasons. If he does business with YOU, especially multiple times- you're frozen. OCCASIONALLY some lucky soul will complain about the siezure, and when the case is "investigated" by PP he is "cleared" and the money unfrozen. This good fortune has nothing to do with an actual "investigation" (there aren't any, really). Pay-Pal WILL unfreeze a small percentage of the accounts (as a future defense against a potential class action), so you MAY benefit from a simple luck of the draw. See, if it ever comes down to a massive class-action lawsuit, or even testimony before the SEC or other regulatory body, PP wants to be able to stand up in court and say "But your honor, we DON'T just freeze accounts and pocket the money. We really DO perform a painstaking investigation. Here's the proof... look at all these people who WERE suspected, but were then cleared by our "crack security staff"! If this was really a scam, why would we have given all of THIS this money back?" I'm amused by the posts that say, "But I've been a good customer of PP since the beginning and have paid thousands in fees.... why would they have done this to ME?" Let me answer that with a hypothetical question: If you were an unregulated financial services company so embittered by fraud losses that you, yourself, had completely lost whatever moral compass you might have once possessed, what would YOU rather have: a happy, content customer whos business might account for $5000 worth of fees over the next 10 years, or a person who's pissed off and will NEVER do business with you again, BUT you've got his $5000 up-front, TODAY- siezed directly out of his account with no appeal possible. Believe me, it's a no-brainer to these people. They have sort of developed a wierd corporate mindset wherein their past (and ongoing) victomization at the hands of con-artists somehow gives them license to "pass it along" to others. Think the E-Bay purchase will make it all better? Guess again. If ANY company knows the reality of on-line schermes and scams, it's E-Bay. While they certainly know that a nice chunk of their fee come from people who ultimately turn out to be thieves (but hey... their money is just as green as that of the honest folks) do you think E-Bay wants to open THEMSELVES (or a subsidary company) up to the same risks as their bidders are exposed to? No way. On another issue, I see lots of complaints from those who have BOUGHT things and paid through PP who find their credit cards suddenly drained and/ or billed multiple times for the same transaction. The answer is simple; PP has very lax hiring procedures, ESPECIALLY compared to the standards any bank would impose on anybody employed in a similar position of trust. But don't forget- PP ISN'T a bank, so they feel no obligation to hire (and, of course, compensate) people as if they were. Unlike the "account freezing" thing, the scams pulled on buyer's credit cards aren't a part of any "master plan" by the company, but simply the work of some dishonest employees who nonetheless have access to ALL of a customer's personal information. Yes, it's scary. Schemes are rampent where a PP employee has a cousin or friend set up an account to receive payments in another name. Since it's an "inside job", these "phantoms" will, of course, sail through the PP application process with flying colors- even if all of the infomation was simply "made up". Then your easily-accessable credit card number is used as payment for phony "auctions" and so forth done through the phantom account. The PP employee who actually approves this transaction might very be the one running the scheme! Given their system and the way the computers are networked together, this is pretty simple for almost any employee to do. Even if you DON'T have access to the PP customer database, you almost certainly have lunch in the break room or visit at the water cooler with someone who does. Many people have been quietly terminated for this (rarely, if ever prosecuted- since this would be a huge black eye for the company), and in reality, THIS is where the majority of PP security and investigative resources go: to policing their shoddily-selected workforce. More of this story on PayPalsucks.com | ||
| David McGee (Damcgee)
Junior Member Username: Damcgee Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2003 |
Don't forget www.PayPalSucks.com !! | ||
| Matt (Matt_lemus)
Senior Member Username: Matt_lemus Post Number: 6358 Registered: 8-2002 |
Cancel you card and get a new one. Simple really. Unless you gave them your checking account number. | ||
| fanatic (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 575 Registered: 2-2003 |
JIM, Alert your credit card of the problem and have them be "on the lookout" for a 600.00 charge from PayPal......give your CC a heads up. Also call your bank and tell them, or better yet, remove all funds from your checking account and just open up another one.....do this quickly, PayPal WILL debit your account or freeze it by tomorrow......if they freeze your checking account, your screwed for a couple of months! | ||
| Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Member Username: Qferrari Post Number: 510 Registered: 2-2002 |
I, too, despise PayPal. They paid a seller TWICE out of my account for the same item, only 2 minutes apart....then, even when I gave them their transaction numbers, showed them it was for the same item, same amount, only 2 minutes apart, they still refused to credit back my account. Rob, I'll mail ya cash! | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 858 Registered: 4-2002 |
I sold a laptop computer on paypal a few years ago. It was sold on ebay. The buyer was in south africa. No big deal I thought.... but i would not ship it until I had received payment in full, verified and in my personal checking account. The guy sent the money.... paypal credited my account... I got the money from paypal and transferred to my checking account. After the money had been in my account for 3 business days I shipped the computer. End of transaction I think. No. Paypal comes back 3 months later. They say that the buyer has reversed the transaction and that I owe them $900. What does this mean? How can a buyer do that? Why have I heard nothing? IS this legal? Paypal could give me answers to none of these questions. The only thing I ever got from them was "PAY ME". They sent me a couple of bills for the amount... I responded to the first couple by sending in all my documentation on the transaction... ebay stuff, payment confirmation, all my emails with the buyer, shipping info including proof of receipt. Turns out I learn the buyer is claiming he never received the item and thus is demanding a refund. It was shipped USPS priority overseas shipping. I had confirmation of delivery including a signed receipt. I sent all this to paypal. Their response: "PAY ME". I finally just blew it off, and never heard anything further about it. However.... it will be a cold day in hell before I have anything to do with paypal whatsoever, for any dollar amount under any circumstances. If the only way for us to do business is through paypal.... we wont be doing business. Period. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
Junior Member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 137 Registered: 10-2001 |
double aarrgghhhhh Well, I just now spoke with "Troy" from PayPal in the "disputes" department. He reviewed my claim and agreed that I followed their "seller protection" program to the letter EXCEPT that I did not require a signature from the buyer. Had I required a signature, PayPal would have taken the hit. As it stands, Troy assures me that my PayPal account will remain with a negative $610 balance until the claim is resolved (60-75 days), but the money will not be taken from my credit card or my bank account (we shall see). It was comforting to actually speak to a human being, even if he is blowing smoke up my.... Thanks again for the help. F-Chat forever!!! | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 431 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jim, When you "hook in" your bank account to PayPal (or any other person through EFT) you ARE giving them the right to deposit OR WITHDRAW money, at their discretion, for reasons they deem fit. That means, for example, if you were doing a lot of biz through paypal, and someone reported you used a stolen CC (even if it was someone that hacked into your account), PayPal can AND WILL freeze the sum total of ALL your transactions from your BANK ACCOUNT if they are able to. And like Doody said, terminating the relationship is NOT easy. You can't just go to the bank and tell them "Oh yeah dont take EFTs from these guys anymore". The easiest way is to close the account, and open a new one. Sad but true. As Doody said, most will not have a problem. And PayPal won't just freeze your money for no reason, and they won't just seize whatever they can from your bank, but it can and does happen where PayPal "feels" they are right and will withdraw ludicrous amounts of money from peoples accounts on suspicion of fraud, even if you had nothing to do with it (as you have just discovered). If you had transferred that $600 from your PayPal to your bank, you would discover $610 missing from your bank account - no resourse - nobody to complain to. You saw how they hide their phone # on their website - that's just the least of what they do. If you had been selling a lot of stuff and someone accused you of fraud, they could reverse a whole BUNCH of trasnactions and take $$ from your bank account and then do an investigation that can last however long, and you may or may not ever get your money. Don't like it? Too bad - call them and they will tell you that too. They are not regulated, so they do whatever they like. What are you gonna do, sue eBay? | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 430 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rob, In order to send money via PayPal you need to get the money from somewhere - i.e. credit card or bank account. Interesting what you say about "you can just dispute the charge". Everyone should realize that when they sign up for PayPal, one of the things that you are agreeing to in the legalese is GIVING UP YOUR RIGHT TO DISPUTE THE CHARGE. This is because, from PayPal's standpoint, while they may be taking the payment, they are not the ones screwing you (if you get screwed), so if/when you dispute a charge, it is PAYPAL that gets dinged, not the guy who received the money. So you agree to GIVE UP your right to dispute when you sign up. In other words, you LOSE the protection of using a credit card, and rather your 'protection' comes only from PayPal. Read some of the online warning sites to see how many people have successfully had PayPal "protect" them like their CC company does. Another way in which PayPal screws people. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
Junior Member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2001 |
Aaaggghhhhh, this bites big time. Can PayPal ding my credit card AND my bank account without authorization? Do I need to change both/either? Do I need to get the "family" involved? Thanks for all the help. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6780 Registered: 12-2000 |
How about NoChex? vB3 only has support for PayPal or NoChex at this time. Future versions will have credit card invoices, but it may be awhile unless I custom develop it. Good news is I have more than 6 months to figure it out before y'all cry babies  have to subscribe for the first time. | ||
| Kevin S. (Wolfgang5150)
Junior Member Username: Wolfgang5150 Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2003 |
Interesting thread. Doing a quick google search, here was the first listing: http://www.paypalwarning.com/ | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 2050 Registered: 11-2001 |
rob - re-read the gory legal agreements. you are mistaken. they have ridiculous rights. and by the way, once you set up a paypal account (sending or receiving), getting rid of it, and terminating their rights is extremely non-trivial. does the average guy who sends $10 to someone get •••••• by paypal? of course not. on the whole, the money does what the money is supposed to do. but if/when stuff gets messed up, the individual, regardless of whether they're the sender or receiver, has no rights. only paypal is protected in a paypal transaction. they are an unregulated bank. rob - happy to vox/email on the credit card stuff. in my prior life, i spent five years selling a ton of "nothing" over the internet via credit cards. we never once considered using paypal, although some huge chunk of our customers begged us to constantly. pm me - happy to sync and help. doody. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1859 Registered: 9-2002 |
PayPal operates in a world of complete unregulation. And they have the brilliant facade of being online to hide behind. One must be foolish to conduct business through them. --Dan | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Intermediate Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 1056 Registered: 3-2003 |
Guys, I am thinking of starting up an online business. This is good stuff. I am going to steer clear of PayPal. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6779 Registered: 12-2000 |
Man you guys are way off. Think about this pragmatically and without emotion. We're not talking about receiving $600 through PayPal on a product you already shipped. This is sending FC a few dollars. How can PayPal screw you on that? How can I screw you on that? Sure, if you pull out, then I may get a fee. Simply tell me how you are at risk for only sending me a few dollars?!? You're not required to hook in a bank account and I don't think you have to hook in a credit card, if you do, then you can always protest the charge with your credit card company. Only risk is receiving money, not paying money. | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 925 Registered: 4-2002 |
Agree FULLY with Doody. Will NEVER EVER NO WAY NO HOW use PayPal. Not even for a $1 transaction. Would NEVER let them have ANY information nor access to ANY of my financial information. Would rather do "business" with e-mailing Nigerians before PayPal. At least with e-mailing Nigerians you KNOW UP FRONT you are getting SCR#WED. Enjoy the Drive, Steven R. Rochlin PS: have done MANY eBay transactions via private check or COD. So far EVERYONE seems to understand how bad PayPal is and i have NEVER had ANY problems using private check/COD. PPS: Rob, once you allow PayPal to have access to your financial info, you are done for IMHO. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 429 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rob, You are wrong - there IS a risk to the person signing up for PayPal. Even if they "just put a few dollars in their account". It is a tremendous risk. Do a search online for paypal problems and you will see horror stories of what can happen. Jim right here is another horror story in the making - he will be out $610 just because PayPal screwed up. If I PayPal you $10 for something and there is a discrepancy, then if PayPal is hooked into my bank (as they ask you to do), they can and will sieze funds from my bank account. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 428 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jim, To answer your question, yes you are getting F***ed by PayPal. They will not give you the money and when you talk to them, all they will do is give you excuses and start quoting the legalese you agreed to when you signed up, and ultimately will tell you "tough ••••". You are out $600 my friend, +10 they dinged you for. You are at the mercy of the buyer to "make right" (and that is doubtful since he used a bad CC in the first place). I don't see how he could use a bad CC - it charges the card as the money is PayPal'ed... so it was PayPal's fault for letting this happen. But they dont care, if the $$ is in your account, they just take it, no recourse. Welcome to the world of having PayPal •••• you. You're SOL unless the buyer has a conscience and decides to pay you. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6778 Registered: 12-2000 |
Mr. Doody, please don't scare people off as I think you're over reacting. It's no risk to the users to open up a PayPal account and send me a couple dollars. I agree that a traditional credit card interface will be better, but that will take time. I've never had problems with PayPal and I have over 200 transactions with them on the received and pay. There is absolutely no risk at all putting a few dollars in your account and sending those to mine from a user perspective. Now I'm at risk if those funds are pulled back weeks later, but that's on me. | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
Member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 674 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree with Doody, Rob. After using PayPal to get the contributions for the Jens and Amar trubite, I will never use them again. If you read their terms of use, they are very much in favor of PayPal and the consumer gets screwed. While I ddi not have a problem with them, they charged some hefty fees for the contributions. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 427 Registered: 12-2002 |
Doody is 1,000% right on this one. PayPal is NOT your friend. Call their customer service to complain and see what they say! Make sure you take your blood pressure meds before you call. They can AND WILL sieze ANY amount of funds THEY deem appropriate from your bank account. You link it to your bank.. someone PayPals you $X.. if there is a discrepancy, they can AND WILL sieze $X + Y (where Y varies) from your bank account, and will do NOTHING until THEY do an investigation. You have no recourse, no option, no way to contact anyone, no single point of contact, and no control over it. I was dinged by PayPal for over $3k. One of our resellers wanted to use PayPal - so I sign up. Because our first transaction was $3k, they "held it for review". They would not tell me how long this review would take. They would not agree to just release the funds back. They would not release the funds to me even though the guy that sent them and I both called on 3-way to tell them it was legit. They told me they may hold the fund indefinitely, and would do so if I did not send copies of my driver license and statements from my bank account. I told them no, they told me the money would be held until I did - however long that may be. They are borderline criminal, and I cannot BELIEVE they have not been snapped back into line yet. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 2048 Registered: 11-2001 |
rob - please do have another option at the start. paypal is a substantial risk to anybody who uses it. they have tremendously unreasonable rights to your money in your paypal account and to any account linked to it. i'll happily snailmail you a check before i use paypal again. and given the type of service you're offering here, it's the worst type of thing for proof of fraud. you'll get burned up the wazoo if you're not really careful. so be careful :-). doody. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6777 Registered: 12-2000 |
Eventually our subscriptions will start out on PayPal. Which isn't any risk except to myself. None of the users will have to worry, except several will have to sign up for an account. Beyond that I will get a credit card interface that will work much smoother. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 2045 Registered: 11-2001 |
gentlemen - here's some FREE advice: DO NOT USE PAYPAL. it is an unregulated bank that protects NOBODY BUT ITSELF. their rules are horrendous. read all that legalese you agreed to and BE AFRAID. doody. | ||
| Matt (Matt_lemus)
Senior Member Username: Matt_lemus Post Number: 6357 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, The number I posted is a direct number to them Matt | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6770 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hmm, that's not good to hear. I've never had a problem with PayPal except the high fees. Of course you never have a problem when others are accepting your money and those that do pay me are few and longtime customers. eBay owns PayPal now I think, so you may want to contact them through eBay. | ||
| Matt (Matt_lemus)
Senior Member Username: Matt_lemus Post Number: 6356 Registered: 8-2002 |
402-935-2050 (paypal's direct phone number) you are not alone in your battle against them. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
Junior Member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2001 |
2 months ago I sold a Mondial/348 tool kit (complete)on EBay. The auction attracted a dozen bidders and the kit sold for $600. I E-mailed the winner, someone named Alex Hou in Maitland Florida, he paid via PayPal, I sent the kit via UPS (I have tracking number confirmation of delivery), he wrote back stating the kit was just what he needed and how pleased he was, etc. and all was well until 3 weeks ago, when PayPal notified me there was a discrepancy and that the buyer (Mr. Hou) had used a bad credit card. I gave Paypal all the proper info (I have a verified account)and they looked into the matter. I thought I was protected, but yesterday they did a "reversal" of the payment AND charged ME a $10. fee. This is on top of the 2.6% or so fee they imposed in the first place for processing the credit card transaction. I can find no place on the PayPal web site to contact anyone. Do I just have to take this BS? Has anyone else ever had this problem? I live only 1.5 hours drive from Mr. Hou. Should I pay him a visit? He has not (surprise) responded to my E-mails of yesterday. Advice please... |