| Author | Message | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Intermediate Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 1049 Registered: 3-2002 |
Thanks Faisal for the information. You have such valuable information to add usually. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Intermediate Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 1076 Registered: 3-2003 |
Ralph, I think he did continue to ignore you. He was clearly addressing Mike. Do you not know what ignore means? | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Intermediate Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 1048 Registered: 3-2002 |
MIKE B "is" 100% correct !!! Mike you "did" leave out quite a few things. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Intermediate Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 1047 Registered: 3-2002 |
Right. I thought I was going to be ignored ? Right ? Wright ? | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 350 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well, there we go, Mike. A bigot like Ralph has said you are 100% correct. So obviously there's nothing left to debate, is there. Once Mr. Koslin pronounces something to be 100% correct, it is. Right? Right? | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
Junior Member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 221 Registered: 8-2003 |
Amir: "The fundamental questions we should be debating is "Did Iraq have WMD and pose an imminent threat?" and "Did Iraq play any role in 9/11 as hinted at by the administration?" America seems to have the attitude, "What's done is done, no point in debating the reasons for the war and invasion now. This may be a mess, but we are determined to fix it before we leave, and we are convinced that we can fix it." The rest of the world is increasingly skeptical of these claims, and very uncomfortable with America still in Iraq, and the chaos there, as well as future prospects." Absolutely true, imo Bushs head needs to roll pronto. I hope that once Clark is the next US President there won't be any Ford hanky panky with pardons, nope, we need a full fledged inquiry with all indictment options open !  Here is yet another story that indicates even more Bush Spin, Lies and Deceit: NEW YORK TIMES October 5, 2003 By JEFF GERTH (New York Times) WASHINGTON, Oct. 5 � The Bush administration's optimistic statements earlier this year that Iraq's oil wealth, not American taxpayers, would cover most of the cost of rebuilding Iraq were at odds with a bleaker assessment of a government task force secretly established last fall to study Iraq's oil industry, according to public records and government officials. The task force, which was based at the Pentagon as part of the planning for the war, produced a book-length report that described the Iraqi oil industry as so badly damaged by a decade of trade embargoes that its production capacity had fallen by more than 25 percent, panel members have said. Despite those findings, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz told Congress during the war that "we are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon." Moreover, Vice President •••• Cheney said in April, on the day Baghdad fell, that Iraq's oil production could hit 3 million barrels a day by the end of the year, even though the task force had determined that Iraq was generating less than 2.4 million barrels a day before the war." continued: Full Story: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract. html?res=FB091EFA39580C768CDDA90994DB404482 | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Intermediate Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 1041 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mike B YOU ARE 100% CORRECT. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 434 Registered: 12-2002 |
Amir, You're a little defensive there... better pre-emptively break out the "moron" references. Where is "here" exactly? Where did this delegation of 40 Iraqis speak? As for the "torn up by American bullets" comment, it reminds me of the crap I read from the Palestinian radicals about the "blood spilled from the bullets of the evil Israelis". So two kids were supposedly shot by Americans - and? How many people have been killed by the terorrists over there? They are blowing up stuff almost daily - markets, schools, hospitals, they don't care. The root of your problem is that the US has the power to do these sorts of things that and bothers you. You suggest we stay out of places where we are not wanted - well duh - I don't think ANY war was fought against someone who WANTED to get their butts kicked. Saddam was the only cause of this war. He precipitated it, he urged it, and he got it. He was an unstable and uncontainable person who needed to be removed. It would be REALLY easy to just keep picking off leaders we didn't like, but we're doing it the hard way and rebuilding. I have a lot of friends in the military - they tell me a quite different story from you. They say the Iraqis overall are very happy with our presence, and although they look forward to the day we hand everything over to them, they also hate the ongoing attacks and the saddam regime as much as any of us do. I read an article that talked about the lack of self esteem of the Arab man. About how they have nothing to feel good about - no great contributions to mankind in thousands of years. No great civilizations, inventions, works of art, peace or enterprise. And that this is a major reason for their angst, which is frequently vented against those they feel are opressing them, including the USA (simply because we're at the top of the pyramid) and Israel, because the plight against the jews is one that is easy to express. I think this notion that Arab men's low self esteem as a group is probably quite accurate. I have never seen another group so willing to fight fight fight against anyone and everyone. Sadly, most of their problems are self created. When you see how things are in Saudi Arabia with the rich few opressing their own more than any USA opression, but all their anger is directed at us. These countries need to get out of the 14th century. The world will be a MUCH better place after we finish rebuilding Iraq. Yes, some people are going to die. I don't expect our soldiers to NOT shoot at people attacking them, whether they be kids or women or whatever. And there will be accidental collateral damage - it happens. It is an acceptable price to pay. Just like losing 50k people/yr on our highways is an acceptable price to pay. When I see a SINGLE Arab public figure standing up against terorrism, standing up against fighting between Palestine and Israel, and standing up against countries like Saudi Arabia sponsoring terrorism, or against Saddam brutalizing their people, then and only then will they be accepted into the 20th century and be treated as such. Until then, they are living in the 14th century, and there is no way I pay my taxes to have my government let backwards people buy and build modern weapons that really HATE us and will always want to attack. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 370 Registered: 2-2003 |
Didn't the Saddam loyalists bombed a major oil plant just a few weeks ago? | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1692 Registered: 1-2003 |
Would it have made sense to strike a repayment deal before a shot was fired? I have to believe there would have been a group (that would take initial control)in Iraq that could have put this in place. Did the US not think that far ahead? | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1123 Registered: 2-2003 |
Iraq, aside from the black market barrels, was only selling oil as a part of the oil for food program. All this money has yet to hit the market. Bob, Art, we covered this some here, http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256121/223121.html Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 2:53 pm: I said, "Even if we withdrew, did nothing, were not involved at all, the "goodwill" is not there and it won't be there, so it suddenly becomes our right to do something about it. Hmmm." "I'm glad for a regime change, legal or not, and I pray that in the long run, the Iraqi people are better for it. Like in the topic of this thread, a peace lover getting owned by an Iraqi. Can't please all of the people all of the time. At least we have this freedom of expression. This on the Internet in China, is locked down. Probably even more restrictive, illegal, and threatening if done in Iraq." "Yes, we could use the billions to help countries worse off then Iraq, like Mozambique. We could kill the subsidies and feed the world, not because of what we expect in return, but simply because we can and it would be the moral, correct, thing to do. I can't describe with words the poverty and quality of life I've seen there compared to any other country when I was there in Beira Airport as a computer administrator in a joint relief effort making a different for those people, dishing out food, and rescuing people who would be dead without the assistance.(snip)" "I believe the regime in Iraq should have been overthrown when it saw fit to invade Kuwait. There are no more freebies, we're not "giving up Poland" in so many words before the outbreak of WW2, we're not sacrificing Kuwait or the Kurds, Saddam's time in power is done with. If we have to carve our way through his military to do so, so be it. " "And as soon as the world body says, ya know, that Bush has to go or the US will change its foreign policy or face the consequences because might doesn't make right, good on them. We can make the US a better country to live in too." Sunny (looking forward to our next regime change '04) | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 339 Registered: 2-2003 |
Easy question. According to Anderson accountants, it will be paid off in 3 months. "We might lose a dollar on each barrel, but we will make it up on volume!"  | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 725 Registered: 1-2003 |
First of all Americans need to realize that all the money spent on the war, and all the rebuilding money is gone. It is not a loan, because for Iraq to grow strong all Iraqs debts need to be forgiven. Here's an interesting story problem though: Country A went to war with country B. This war cost country A 400 billion dollars. Country B is going to pay back Country A that $400 billion via oil. Each barrel of oil is valued at $28. Assuming country B's prior maximum oil output of 4 million barrels per day, how long will it take before Country A is completely paid back? | ||
| DL (Darth550)
Member Username: Darth550 Post Number: 571 Registered: 7-2003 |
Amir, Now, wasn't that easy? Thanks, DL | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 330 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sorry DL, didn't realize you were actually asking me questions. Just thought you were taking potshots, as you tend to do. Here's your post, with the answers you seem to crave so desperately: Amir, Why do respond to that question as though it was so inflammatory? I didn't think I was. I provided a very simplistic analogy. Obviously, our perceptions differ. Lookin for someone to criticize maybe? No, not really. Feeling a little insecure? No, not really. I can't wait for your diatribe. I don't think this is a question. Again, I don't think this thread is about any of the above, and I would prefer that we discuss this elsewhere, if you feel the need to. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1683 Registered: 1-2003 |
The news stated that prisoners were released from their prison cells when the US went in. Granted, many were political prisoners that should not have been sent to those hell-holes to begin with. What about the 'true criminal' that should be in prison there (for murder, robbery, etc). Was there any screening taking place before releasing the prisoners into the general population? | ||
| DL (Darth550)
Member Username: Darth550 Post Number: 570 Registered: 7-2003 |
Amir, Predictably good non-answer. Dl | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 329 Registered: 2-2003 |
We are missing the bigger picture. This war was never about making Iraqis' lives better. Why debate that? Whether they end up being better off or worse off is a by-product of a far bigger question. The fundamental questions we should be debating is "Did Iraq have WMD and pose an imminent threat?" and "Did Iraq play any role in 9/11 as hinted at by the administration?" America seems to have the attitude, "What's done is done, no point in debating the reasons for the war and invasion now. This may be a mess, but we are determined to fix it before we leave, and we are convinced that we can fix it." The rest of the world is increasingly skeptical of these claims, and very uncomfortable with America still in Iraq, and the chaos there, as well as future prospects. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2839 Registered: 6-2001 |
A slightly different perspective on the issues: http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=34366&d=30&m=10&y=2003 It's interesting to note that the arab press refers to these people as "resistance fighters". That alone implies where this is going. To those of you too young to remember, the polls of the Viet Nam said the same thing, but somehow, nobody ever turned the bad buys in. Sounds very familiar. It's easier to see something, when its a rerun, and I got to tell you, this is looking like a rerun. McNamara: you can't liberate a country whose people don't want you there. True then, true now. Art | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 380 Registered: 7-2002 |
I've commented before on these types of threads regarding Iraq. As an airline pilot, I have been to most of the countries in the world, including the Mid East. I always found Iraq (mid '80s)to one of the easiest of the Arab countries to be in. The people seemed happy. There was freedom to worship any religion (at least the major ones), you could drink beer, women could work and drive cars and go to school. Compare that with our friends the Saudis. Somehow my fellow Americans have come to think of Iraq as some sort of backward country that (as GWB says) hates the United States. As of 1987 that was not true. Now, since we have decided to bomb and kill them there may be truth to it. Thanks, GWB! Best regards, Bob | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 391 Registered: 5-2003 |
Despite the collapse of government and civic institutions, looting and violence and shortages of water and electricity, 67 percent of 1,178 Iraqis told a Gallup survey team within five years, their lives will be better than before the U.S.-led invasion. Only 8 percent of those queried said they believed their lives would be worse off as a result of the military campaign to remove Saddam and his Baath Party leadership, the New York Times reported. http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20030924-080344-5035r.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-10-14-baghdad-poll_x.htm Gallup requires a membership which I do not have to view their files....but these links are quite informative. | ||
| James P. Smith (Tigermilk)
Junior Member Username: Tigermilk Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2001 |
1) Why should a "new government" in Iraq be responsible for the actions of an external agent (the US)? 2) I'd bet the administration thinks (and rightly so in my mind) that any funds from Iraqi oil would entice radical Muslims in the region to further perpetuate erroneous allegations of US imperialism, raping of the Muslim world to the benefit of Israel, etc. Bottom line - the whole thing is a mess and why I predict George's venture into the desert will end up just like his dad's, out of office after 4 years. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 328 Registered: 2-2003 |
No, the poll said that 65% felt they were safer from Saddam Hussein and his regime than before, when he was in power. Not safer in general. Which is kind of a retarded question. And they wanted the US to stay to ensure that Saddam or his Ba'athi party don't make a comeback. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 390 Registered: 5-2003 |
That same poll that Amir referred to, also stated that the Iraqi's felt, by a margin of about 65% that they would be safer and better off than before Saddam Hussein. It also mentioned that they wanted the US to stay there. He forgot to mention that part. I'll go look for the poll online and post it here. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 327 Registered: 2-2003 |
DL, we are talking about Iraq. This thread is not about you or me. | ||
| DL (Darth550)
Member Username: Darth550 Post Number: 569 Registered: 7-2003 |
Amir, Why do respond to that question as though it was so inflammatory? Lookin for someone to criticize maybe? Feeling a little insecure? I can't wait for your diatribe. DL - FIRST class. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2837 Registered: 6-2001 |
As you can see, the perception of what we have done in Iraq appears to be somewhat different than what we here in the US think it is. Simple fact: we haven't found Saddam yet. 25M is huge amount of money for Iraqis, yet no one has turned him in. Think about that, because in 5+ months we have controlled the country, and we haven't gotten him. That alone tells me that he had substantial support, with strong loyalty. Perhaps the claims of his brutality are like the claims of his WMDs: BS. The victors write the history, and make it look like they were right, no matter what the facts. If I had to predict the future, I'd say we are out of Iraq before the 04 elections, that Iraq ends up being split into 3 nations, and Turkey attacks the Kurdish state which is the northern Iraq. In short a total mess, no one gets paid any of the debt, the Arabs, such as Saudi Arabia, etc. hold us responsible for this, our oil prices shoot up to European costs, etc. In general a big mess. That's the worse case senario, but it sure looks like its going that way. Art | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 326 Registered: 2-2003 |
And another thing, Mike...since being in Iraq seems to be a prime requirement (for you) to be able to comment on it, tell me how much time Dubya has spent there? What about you? What makes you so qualified to comment? Are you based in Iraq? Do we have to be an astronaut to talk about NASA? Do we have to be politicians to discuss politics? | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 325 Registered: 2-2003 |
By the way, Mike, my dad was in Iraq two weeks ago. He's a surgeon. He had to treat two kids whose stomachs were torn up by American bullets. There were thirty other kids there, but my dad won't tell me about their injuries. But don't you worry, as soon as we fix up the mess, the Iraqis will be lining up to buy your brightly colored motorcycle accessories. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2003 |
No, it's not first hand info. But it is second hand info. We had a delegation of 40 Iraqis speak here last week. This has also been reported in Newsweek, Wall Street Journal, NY Times, Washington Post, and a lot of other publications. Of course it's reported in very muted terms compared to the rest of the world, so it allows you to sleep well at night. There was also a British documentary on TV a few nights ago where some Americans GIs decided to roll over a car with their tank. That car was a taxi and the owner's only source of livelihood. When asked why they did it, the soldiers said "That's what you get for looting." The man had not been looting. This was one of about 50 incidents that the documentary showed. But don't you worry Mike, as soon as we prop up the Iraqi economy, they will be lining up to buy your brightly colored motorcycle accessories. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
Member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 426 Registered: 12-2002 |
"Americans are violating virtually every single civil right that we cherish here" Amir, so you are in Iraq right now and this is first-hand info, or not? | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 323 Registered: 2-2003 |
The average person in Iraq is far, far worse off today than under Saddam. There's 95% unemployment. Americans are violating virtually every single civil right that we cherish here. Men are being rounded up and imprisoned indefinitely without charge, women are being roughed up, homes and propery and livelihoods are being destroyed. All in the name of enhancing security. Which isn't being enhanced. It's a huge mess. And we're stealing from them under the guise of doing them a favor. A recent poll showed that over 70% of Iraqis view the Americans as occupiers rather than liberators. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2052 Registered: 7-2002 |
also, that $4B was per year not a 1 time charge. Also, there was talk of making the $87B loans and not aide. Still $87B, but sounds better that way. | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 322 Registered: 2-2003 |
Problem is, they weren't asked if they wanted to, and they aren't being asked how to spend it. It's being spent for them. As we see fit. Which means $10 goes into our friendly Halliburton pockets for every $0.03 of benefits they receive. But we're the good guys, so this is ok, right? | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2051 Registered: 7-2002 |
question? if thier oil money is not used to rebuild then where does it go? saddam was controlling it before for his own uses. some of it certainly went to the people, but I bet not a large %. How about now? | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1682 Registered: 1-2003 |
Amir..Whould the general population of Iraq not welcome the opportunity to spend their oil money for their newfound freedom? | ||
| Amir (Amir)
Member Username: Amir Post Number: 321 Registered: 2-2003 |
Why don't I squat in your house and get you to pay for the mortgage. Maybe I will break some things and you can pay to repair them also. Of course I am doing it because you were about to attack me. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1679 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jim..The $4B is only 5% of the total Bush wants to get his hands on. Why such a small percentage? Their oil money should foot the bill for the US contractors. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 2050 Registered: 7-2002 |
I read something about $4B of thier oil money going to pay for rehab. Also, dont' forget that to rebuild it will take contracts that will go to US companies. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1677 Registered: 1-2003 |
OK...The US wants to spend billions to rebuild Iraq. I hear no mention of Iraq funding this with their oil profits. Whats going on here? |