| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Muise (Writerguy)
Member Username: Writerguy Post Number: 345 Registered: 9-2003 |
Just one little thing here. Canadian Military is a weakened top heavy organization, true. History has shown that the Canadian military can "Make Due" with a great deal. One of those 1950's vintage subs, during NATO war games managed to work its way into the Navy Yards where all the best defences are in place and take a number of pictures of the US sitting pretty before slipping back into the atlantic. The pictures caused quite a stir when the Canadian folks handed them over to the Pentagon, There was a hellicopter hanging over the boat to escort the captain and XO into a debrief in Washington. Conrtary to what many may thing is history (due in large part to Fanticies of Hollywood) The US invlovement came REALLY LATE in WWII the canucks were there doing their part for a long time. While the military is under equipped and delapadated the people are the best at trying to make silk from a sow's ear. Comparing the gun violence with other countries should be looked at in context of deaths per 100,000 still the US wins. It is not the guns that are the problem it is the almost unrestriicted access. There are a lot of people who have posted in this thread who have convincing well thought out arguements on why they should have the right to own guns. They are not the problem. There are too many guns out there in the wrong hands. It is too easy to get them, and there are companies who specialize in providing these guns to the wrong people. Because of the limited access to hand guns in particular a Canadian "bar Fight" or Domestic destrubance is not likely to become a leathal shootout. Here in the US that moment of passion during a fight can more easily become a lead fest because the gun is accessable. Look at it this way. Not everyone can Afford an F Car Not every one can drive on properly with the maturity and skill the car should have. I would not put a F40 in the hands of an 18 year old hormonally challanged kid It would be almost a guaranteed tragic result. But that same kid can get a hand gun. The prevelance of Gun Culture is something new to me. I lived my life in Canada. I now live in the US. I am just learning more about this but it seems to me that Moore hit a couple of homeruns with his movie. Just watch it. It will make you mad, and make you think. My fav part was the bank that gave him a rifle for opening a checking account...,. Regardless of what side of the arguement you come down on you have to admit that is freekin stupid | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 402 Registered: 5-2003 |
Faisal... You are correct in that was just part of his message from the film IMHO. | ||
| Gregory (Prugna_328)
Junior Member Username: Prugna_328 Post Number: 115 Registered: 9-2003 |
I believe I saw an article about people who are doing tine in the state of New York for murder. I can't state this as fact but I think I remember it saying that the avg. time served for murder is 7 yrars. If I am remembering correctly its really F/U. Just let them out so they can kill again. 7 years is just not acceptable. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Intermediate Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 1066 Registered: 3-2003 |
Yes, Kds, movie makers use scripts and editing so that their movies come out the way they want. Michael Moore planned it that way so that it would get his message out in the best way he thought possible. Nowhere does he say that guns should be banned. I don't agree with everything he says in that movie, and I didn't like the way he harangued Charlton Hesston. He was able to bring out some disturbing notions that Mr. Hesston holds, but an old man is probably easy to trap with wordplay. That said, I don't think Michael Moore's message was the one that you understood it to be ie. that guns should be banned. I believe his message was that there is a lot of fear-mongering in America. And that people don't really have a full understanding of what they are doing, but they spout nonsensical excuses to justify things that they hold near and dear, whether they are right or wrong, good or bad. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1122 Registered: 2-2003 |
This was covered before here, http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256121/249871.html Sunny | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 727 Registered: 1-2003 |
I didn't see anyone say it. The only people that say it are the ultra scared gun junkies. He even showed that gun control isn't the answer by using Canada as an example. The only people that thought that show was about taking away guns from Americans were the NRA type gun fanatics. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 399 Registered: 5-2003 |
Of course you didn't see him say that Randall....because he planned it that way. | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 724 Registered: 1-2003 |
I saw that movie and I don't recall any times where M.Moore was saying guns should be made illegal, or taken away from all citizens. It seemed he just wanted to get people to say all the great excuses that we have here, and he succeeded in doing that. I do think it's funny that people flip out when anything negative is said. You say WTF is wrong with America and their crime rates, and Americans say "F&^K You, we could beat your ass!!". Say black males have a high chance of being in jail at some point in their life, black men will say "F&ck you you racist!!". They're just bad statistics. And about the solution being "Uniquely American", that is actually part of the problem. Too many people in this country think all ideas should be unique, when sometimes you can look at other countries and copy them for great results. You'll never hear a leader say "Country ____ has great ______, maybe we should design our system more like theirs" Whether that blank is schools, crime control, health care or public transportation. The problem with guns in America are the sh!t heads that own them. People that are neglegent in ownership should never be allowed to touch a gun again. Criminals that use guns in crimes should be locked in a small cell and NEVER let out. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1574 Registered: 5-2002 |
Warren, keep in mind that Moore and his Bowling for Columbine publicity circus were gleefully accepted onto every talk show circuit throughout the electronic media. But just try letting Charleton Heston or any PRO-gun person get any air time to voice the Second Amendment position and nobody (in the liberal media) will offer to open the door for them. Just another example of their politically correct agenda. If it weren't for Bill O'Reilly, every media Thanksgiving turkey would have ALL LEFT WINGS! | ||
| Warren Balla (West662)
Junior Member Username: West662 Post Number: 141 Registered: 8-2003 |
Mr.Handa, thats not true. Canadians wear the Canadian Flag to let people know that, due to the current state of the Canadian dollar, it would be a waste of time robbing us.  Kds, that was a good article. Yes, There is always two sides to the story, and that peice definitely gives me a different perspective of Michael Moore and his movie. Thanks! (sure goes a lot further than a personal insult! lol) | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2215 Registered: 5-2001 |
You bet Joe, but Canadians know as well as I, that being American, is like having a giant bullseye on you back....why else would Canadians go out of their way to plaster Canadian flag stickers on their cars, and Canadian flag patches on their backpacks and fanny packs when travlelling? Cause the don't want to be mistaken as an American when the terrorists set off the car bomb! :-) | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 759 Registered: 7-2003 |
"Bowling for Columbine" is fiction. | ||
| Joe V (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 249 Registered: 8-2003 |
That's true Dave - the disbanding of that unit was a classic example of one of our problems - PC run amok.
I just want to point out that I have never said or written anything negative about the USA. I also don't think Warren said anything negative about the USA. I have American relatives and close friends that I would do anything for. Just remember that just as you love your country, other people love their's. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2213 Registered: 5-2001 |
Joe, I'm saying all this, half in jest...I truly realize that Canada is our largest trading partner, and politically, a loyal ally. You are also plagued with as many "skeletons" in your closet as ourselves...I guess that is why I get a little defensive, when one picks on our nation. You do have a great military tradition, and that is well known. But like us, have you own black eyes...I recall the disbanded paratroop regiment a few years ago as one. And to me, I thought that was a politically weak move; I would have done something with the individuals and leadership structure, but not disbanded them. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 398 Registered: 5-2003 |
Warren..... http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000051.html Read the essay entitled "Magic" that I have linked for you before you continue to paint Michael Moore as something he is not. Afterwards, respond here with your comments. I would be interested to see what you think. Moore is pushing a radical left wing agenda that requires guns to be removed from the populace in order for his agenda to take hold and succeed. He is a raving member of the tinfoil hat moonbat brigade IMHO. The only reason that we do not have a high incidence of gun crime here is simple.....every one is using knives as they are the preferred weapon of choice due to effective gun control. Witness the cop who shot and killed the knife wielding drunk in Forest Lawn the other day as an example. | ||
| Joe V (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 248 Registered: 8-2003 |
Dave, I'm not going to hijack the thread or get into an argument, but... Yes, Canada does have a weakened military thanks to some very misplaced priorities and bad leadership at the Federal level but please don't forget that Canada has a long history of very distinguished military accomplishments and great sacrifices. I get a little tired of the oft-repeated myth (and I'm not saying you were doing it too) that we're just sitting up here drinking beer and playing hockey. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2212 Registered: 5-2001 |
Okay, 30 ships and 4 subs in the Canadian Navy, there are 39 ships in the BC Ferry fleet...no idea of the personnel numbers; I'm too lazy...but I found the above numbers doing a quick "google" search to a Canadian gov't website. | ||
| Warren Balla (West662)
Junior Member Username: West662 Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2003 |
Wow, so many of you take this so personally. take it easy. holy ••••. I wasn't insulting your country, let alone any of you, so, leave the personal critizisms out of it. I though it was interesting, and informative, as did millions of other people, including Americans. If you don't agree with my opinion feel free to say so, but dont get ur panties in a twist about it! Yes, there needs to be a change in Canada too, in every country, but I was commenting on the movie, which focues on the USA. Sorry to cause the trouble. I didn't think you would get hysterical over it. | ||
| Dave M (Davem)
Member Username: Davem Post Number: 476 Registered: 1-2002 |
I dont understand people who brag about not locking thier door!? Are these the same people who later tell you how these things never happenned here before? You know the day after Larry down the street broke down an killed so an so. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2211 Registered: 5-2001 |
Serious, but unfortunately, I no longer have the reference where I got that statistic. | ||
| Joe V (Jts)
Junior Member Username: Jts Post Number: 247 Registered: 8-2003 |
Dave, are you being serious or are you joking around? | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2209 Registered: 5-2001 |
More guns per capita in Canada than the USA? Get off the crack pipe dude, we are not called the "Arsenal of Democracy" for nothing! :-) You should be thankful for our military, your close presence to a "sleeping giant" means you can waste all your taxes on you socialized medicine, instead of a military...Christ, the BC Ferry system has more ships and personnel than the Canadian Navy! Man, I better watch what I say or Canada Customs will have my Nexus pass revoked. God knows what the "significant other" (in Vancouver) would say... :-) | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1570 Registered: 5-2002 |
Warren, according to credible statistics by groups such as Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), over 17,000 people die each year on American highways due to drunk drivers. Why doesn't somebody like Michael Moore make a movie about THAT horrible stastic? Why not? Because he's just like all liberal whiners who think THEY have a better way for society to go, and THEY think that by doing away with the Second Amendment Right to Bear Arms will lower crime drastically and make America a wonderful eutopia for everyone. But his "Bowling for Columbine" documentary (if you can call it that) has many sensationalisms and flaws. There is a web site that makes a point for point analysis of the films flaws. It's just a piece of sensationalism entertainment, not a study of facts. Down here in the southern states, EVERYBODY AND THEIR BROTHER owns a gun (or 3 or 4) and none of us are going outside on bizarre killing rampages. As always, the small fraction of murdering wackos grab all the attention and limelight of the liberal news media who all hate the National Rifle Association, despite the fact that the NRA is second only to the American Association of Retired Persons as a major organization in the political lobbying influence in Washington. The news media never wants to talk about that fact. They always try to portray gun owners as redneck goofballs and psycho killers. But they just don't WANT to get the facts straight. That's because they also have the same eutopian agenda that the liberals do. It's the old, "Trust me, I know what's best for you little people who make up the unwashed masses." It's the old ivory tower complex. The elite liberal upper crust want you to believe that "guns are evil" and should be outlawed. But of course, as has been documented many times, those same elite upper crust liberals have ARMED body guards to keep them safe 24 hours a day. What was it that Marie Antoinette said, "Let them eat cake."? That's the liberal attitude. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1633 Registered: 1-2002 |
I 'm getting a license to carry ... I must be a bad person. | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 517 Registered: 4-2003 |
Warren, you're making the same mistake that many people in this country (including Mr. Moore) make. Namely, comparing the United States to other countries such as Canada, England, Germany, Japan, Netherlands, or you-name-it as if these were equivalent countries. The argument typically goes something like this: Why can't the USA do it like they do in _______. I have heard this same argument with respect to health care, mass transist, gun control and so forth and so on. Simple truth, it that there is no other country in the world that even comes close to the good ole USA. We are bigger in size, bigger in population, more diverse, more unique and more different than any other country in the world or even areas of the globe, such as the Euro countries. Just to illustrate, if California was a separate country, it would be in the top 5 world economies. Now, add Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Washington state, and maybe you start getting the picture. (If you like, you can have North Dakota.) It may sound elitist, but we are the cutting edge. You may not like what you see. But keep in mind that you are looking into a mirror that shows the future. Bottom line is that any solution to our "problems" will be a uniquely American solution. Houston will never be like Paris, and Denver will never be like Calgary. However, my guess is that in 20 years you will not be able to tell Calgary from Denver. Finally, search the Internet for critical reviews of Mr. Moore's work. I think that you will find that he is a movie maker, which means, by definition, that he deals in fanasties. Always remember that movies are entertainment, which means that Mr. Moore has his hand in your back pocket. (While you are at it, do a similar seach on Mr. Oliver Stone.) This is not to deny what happened at Columbine High School. However, when considering public policy, it is a mistake to mix up fantasies (like Mr. Moore's movie) with reality. I'm glad, though, to see you thinking. Just apply a little more critical reasoning to what you see and hear. Dale | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 3259 Registered: 1-2002 |
Warren, I love your profile picture, but you are intellectually challenged. You say "in the US there are over 11,000 people killed by guns each year". Since when did any gun become a living, breathing, sentient being? There were 11,000 people killed by PEOPLE last year. They may have used guns (which included thousands of suicides, by the way), but the guns did no killing. You live in Canada. How many people up there were killed by booze last year? By cars? What's fcuked up is the absolute one-sided view presented by Moore. In fact, he does NOT tell you that the US cities with the most strict anti-gun laws also have, BY FAR, the highest murder rates, assault with a firearm rates, armed robbery rates, rape at gunpoint rates, etc. BY FAR. Get a clue, please, before you start telling us that "there needs to be a change" in our country. Change your absurd income tax rates, your failed socialized medicine policies, and your terrorist-friendly asylum & welfare policies and then you can lecture us on how we run the US. | ||
| Rosso (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 576 Registered: 12-2001 |
Warren, As I have not seen the movie, I will not comment on it, but from what I have seen and heard from Mr. Moore, I agree with William That being said, there have been already over 100 murders in the city of Oakland this year alone.Not all gun related, but •••• is •••••• up down here no doubt. | ||
| Ron (Easy_rider)
Member Username: Easy_rider Post Number: 804 Registered: 12-2002 |
I thought it was a very interesting and informative if a bit provocative. I plan on watching it again. | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Intermediate Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 1429 Registered: 9-2001 |
"There needs to be a change." Sure, have Michael Moore deported to France. | ||
| Warren Balla (West662)
Junior Member Username: West662 Post Number: 138 Registered: 8-2003 |
Sorry if this post is outdated, but a couple weeks ago I finally had the chance to see this movie and I have to say, while impressed by it, it was very surprising and unbelievable! I mean, there is obviously something really fukced up in America. I mean, all of that paranoia created by the media. It is insane. And now, you have US papers publishing false letters from soldiers overseas at war, lying to the people of America of the true status of the battle. Encouraging more teenagers and young adults to join the army, in hopes to defend their country, when they are being completely lied to. Something needs to change. I don't live in the USA, and a lot of the information on the movie were estimates and speculation. I live in Canada, and I can attest to the fact that locking your door is quite uncommon. I used to live in a smaller city, and The only time the door would be locked is when we went for a vacation. Since some family members didn't have a key, we left the door unlocked at nght. When we were at work, the house would be unlocked, and especially when we were home, the house would be unlocked. I live in a bigger city now, and the only time we lock our doors is at night. Are people really that affraid of someone coming into their house to harm them in the US, like the movie suggested? If its true I find that crazy! But the undeniable fact of the movie is the murder rate with the use of a gun. Canada has a WAY higher gun/capita rate than the US, however, in the US there are over 11,000 people killed by guns each year, and only 165 in Canada. I'm not here to bash on America. I vacation there, and always have a good time. But, you cant deny that something is fukced up. There needs to be a change. |