| Author | Message | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 209 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arthur, That is just SAD!. Why can't we get them interested in F1 ... these multi-billionaires ... I am sure that I could create a great team if they came running at me with a couple of billion  Very sad, I just don't get the game, infact most games with balls. Pete | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 2539 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dapper, unfortunately, you're right... | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1004 Registered: 6-2001 |
Pete: An F1 team may spend 100 -300 Milion, but none of them lose 100M per year. NFL teams lose 100 - 200 Million per year on about a 500-600 Million year gross. I reprsent some people who have been in both endeavors, and let me tell you that a football team is MUCH more expensive to own and operate, especially if you want to win, and not run a business. Personal wealth is also a consideration, there are multi-millionaires who run F1 team, but in the NFL, there are only multi billionaires. Art | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 207 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arthur,
How much do you think an F1 costs to run? I reckon that they would cost over $1000 US per mile atleast. Ferrari have two test teams working almost non stop, plus they have a factory working on spares, doing engine testing, designing the next years contender plus the transportation costs, etc. I think Malboro's sponsorship on its own would be over $100 (US) million per year to Ferrari, then you have Vodafone, and the others including Shell. On top of that you have crashes ... which in some cases will right off that chassis ... and they take many months to create ... plus you have the carbon brake rotors that have to be replaced continuously but take 6 months to make each. Each wing costs around $100,000 US going on the fact that Formula Brabham wings cost $40,000 Aus ... Personally from a financial point of view I think F1 is disgusting, when you think that we could resolve ALL world hunger (temporarily atleast) if we took all the teams money and applied it to the needy countries ... but I love the technology at no cost restriction side of it! Thus yes other sports may run it close, but the engineering involved costs more than running a ball sport, because you do not take 1 year and many many expensive engineers to build a ball and a playing court ... you just have to play for the players. Remember also the cost of the maintaining the racing tracks that usually get resurfaced almost every year (or 3) because after one race meeting the braking areas have been moved around due to the tremendous braking ability of these cars. Burning money would be cheaper Pete | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1000 Registered: 6-2001 |
PSK: You're wrong about motorsports being the most expensive. Try owning an NFL team. Makes the F1 scene look like kiddies finance. some of those teams run 100 - 200M negative cash flows. Takes a very wealthy individual or family to support that kind of cash. Art | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 199 Registered: 11-2002 |
I agree Anthony, MS is the hardest working driver in F1 ... he does not have to be, but he does it because he loves to drive and knows what it takes to be a winner. When the F2002 was first available for driving, I believe that he cut short his holiday and rushed over to the workshop to have a look and get that first impressions under his belt ... did Rubens do that, does Jaques Villeneuve ... I bet not. MS is completely obsessed by motor racing, and when he says that he loves his new car ... I actually think he does, and he lives for motor racing, like many of the greats in the past. Is this normal, er, probably not, but if you love what you do it sure helps you be better at it. I am sure the other guys think they love it as much, but many of them are still caught up in the 'I am an F1 driver', yee haa, and trying to bed every good looking woman that happens to walk past ... and some of them seem to have to be dragged to the test track ... sh!t if I was even a test driver for F1 ... I probably would sleep in the workshop next to the cars. Pete | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 174 Registered: 11-2002 |
I don't think it's fair to call Michael greedy. If F1 was watched by 5000 people every other weekend and the team could only afford to pay him $20,000 per year then I'm sure Michael would still do it. There are sports people all over the world who do it because they love it. If I was a world champion croquet player and other croquet players were paid millions because it was such a popular sport I would expect to be well paid. Michael is not paid a ton of money because he makes ridiculous demands. He is paid it because he is worth it. When you look at the number of dollars he costs per point earned he is probably the best value driver in F1. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 564 Registered: 4-2002 |
DES, 'I' see your point absolutely but unfortunately mate we live in a world where most of the developed worlds population know no motivation other than money. The crass is that they are so wrapped up in this that they find it utterly unnaceptable to believe that there are those that aren't at all motivated by money and would/do many things for zero fee. Its crazy as suggested between the lines of some stuff below that MS is such a true to the core driver that he isn't 'money' motivated is complete hogwash, its at drivers of his level (the top of the pile) that the whole money issue is kicked off, because their demands are rediculously high, worst still that they are met. Yes, of course he has quite unreal driving abilities but like many other drivers and indeed 'sports'persons in general he is also one extremely greedy b'd, not such a plausible quality. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2002 |
Interesting. 1. Agree that Irvine was smart to grab a Ferrari drive when he did, and agree that Alesi was too emotionally involved with the Ferrari image, etc. 2.
I think in MS's case the rich were drawn to his raw talent as so often happens. Rich guy dreams about being an F1 star, but can't do it ... and notices a young kid with the goods but no money, thus we have both ways benificial relationship. Reading MS books I do not think you can say that MS had rich friends just that they were drawn to him. Plus I am pretty sure Mark Weber's family are not enormously well off, and companies like Telstra were keen to get another Aussie in F1, thus backed his talent all the way ... good on them I say. Apparently Telstra have been with him all his career ... In the end talent and magnetisim draws the money in, the rest of the field are made up of rich (yes I do agree in some cases) semi-talented steerers. In the end motorracing is the MOST expensive sport and really is only a play thing for the rich people, and always has been. Infact it is probably better now than it used to be in the early days (30's - 50's), when you had to be a Prince or something to afford to play Pete | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 443 Registered: 10-2002 |
F1 had a fair share of rich, but not so talented drivers as well. 'Not so talented' doesn't mean they don't know how to drive a race car, but just maybe not a F1. One of the more recent ones was the son of the Swiss Ferrari importer. Very nice and fast guy, but just not F1 material. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 924 Registered: 6-2001 |
Pete: Never said they didn't have talent. But talent alone doesn't get you there. You also need money. The universe from which these drivers are drawn is the rich, or friends of the rich. That's how they get to the party. Of course if they are talentless, they don't get there. An example of money, without talent, is a certain Japanese driver in CART, whose family owns a large electrical house, and was asked by CART to not drive any more. His pocketbook had outrun his talent at that level. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 441 Registered: 10-2002 |
The money issue is quite true. I agree with that (not that I disagreed ever with that). Lauda got it from the banks, Mansell sold all his belongings and went into debt, living out of a trailer near the race track. Even Schumi had to borrow cash: Willi Weber, Mr. 20% paid for Michael's first test drive in a Jordan at Silverstone. That got him noticed and his career started at Spa. Irvine is no Schumi, agreed. But different from Alesi he could bring the car home to victory (ok, Alesi did it once as well). But part of being a successful race car driver is knowing when to go where and get the deal. Eddie just did that with Ferrari. Jean was smitten by them, when they were way down. Just like Villeneuve threw his career away with BAR. Not many people can build a team up from the bottom like Schumacher did with Ferrari. But Eddie was smart enough to make the right move at the right time. Also part of the game. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2002 |
Er,
and utter bullsh!t:
Major wrong!!: 1. Michael Schumacher and his family had little money, it was his talent that enabled people around him to support his career. Without the talent shining through and the enthusiasm of those that watched this talent ... he would still be borrowing used tyres (in fact getting them out of the rubbish bin) in karts. Ralph ofcourse would have been a little richer (I guess) thanks to his brother ... 2. Mark Weber, has risen on talent alone. You do not get sponsors paying the bill without the talent first. Infact I bet many other drivers use sponsors money to start their F1 career, and this is only possible if the sponsor believes in them (in some cases maybe they believe in the impossible) Pete | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 920 Registered: 6-2001 |
Andreas: The major issue about becoming a F1 driver is money. No matter how talented, every driver, and I mean every driver, has to buy a ride at some point in their career. Someone going to CART has to get noticed, and that means usually family financing. For the most part, you'll need to get to an Atlantic car, and that means over 1m. Some people make it without family money, but they get the money from somewhere, otherwise no one would notice them. Europe, despite their claim that they get more talent, requries that the potential drivers have money, or access to same. Check out the backgrounds of the current F1 drivers: all of them come from family money, except Montoya. He had access to money to get him started, but once he got noticed, his talent got him his rides. He's the only driver in F1 who doesn't come from an extremely weathly family. Art | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2002 |
It is easy to look good in a good car. Real talents look good in a bad car ... even a car as bad as a Jaguar. It is not just about results ... just got to watch them to see the stars shine, etc. BTW: Alesi had miles more natural talent, but not enough of a fighter to win races (er, you could accuse 90% of the field over that, including Irvine). Pete | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 422 Registered: 10-2002 |
OK, HUG. I'm biased in my assessments towards Eddie, no doubt. I guess that's why it is called a 'fan' and not say a 'critic'. ...and I'll surely miss him and his remarks.  | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 388 Registered: 3-2001 |
Yes, Eddie did get quite close...that I don't disagree with. Actually, there is a lot I don't disagree on, with you...just I think, his overall place in F1. Eddie's F1 career statistics: 147 F1 races 86 finishes (58.50% of starts) - with an average finishing position of 6.07 36 DNF - mechanical/electrical (24.48% of starts) 17 DNF (11.56% of starts) - accidents/collisions both caused and thrust upon him 8 DNF (5.4% of starts) - spin off track All of his career wins came in one season when MS was out and he carried the flag for Ferrari. Eddie was a good/solid F1 driver. If he did not have the gift of gab, he would not be as talked about as he is. I take nothing away from Eddie, I just don't think he is a fantastic driver. I do however think he was a GREAT addition to the F1 world, where refreshing (sometimes shocking) opinions are rare. I do however, envy you in that you have such access to a part of the world of F1. I too would be his biggest fan if I knew him as you do. Regards pal. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2002 |
Comparing the results of one season is not telling the whole picture. Otherwise you might as well take a look at Nelso Piquet's last season, a two times WC, who kinda lost interest in his last year. Eddie's performance wasn't stellar last year, but who could blaim him with that Jag? Take a look at his whole career, including his inspirited drives before he joined Ferrari. As I said before, had MS done to Hakkinen in Suzuka what he did to Damon Hill in Australia and tried against Villeneuve, Eddie would have been Champion. Or not having to wait for a fourth tire at the Ring or not having to have given up the lead to MS before and losing valuable points, all that could have helped. Lots of woulds/coulds as usual in racing, but you have to admit Eddie got darn close. And last but not least: I love the guy for speaking his mind and being a bon vivant. We got plenty of colorless characters in F1 already. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 387 Registered: 3-2001 |
Anthony, I agree that we will have to agree to differ. BUT, seeing how you will were phoning his father over the weekend, your opinion may be based on more than just his ability..... If you look back at last years results...(and I think qualifying is probably the best measure of performance as both cars suffered from various mechanical/electrical failures), you will see that Eddie outqualified Pedro 11 times to 6 times. Some numbers: Average margin in which Eddie outqualified Pedr= 0.4147 seconds. This takes into account the 1.571 second margin at Silverstone. Take out that one outlier, and the margin goes down to 0.2991 seconds. Average margin in which Pedro outqualified Eddie= 0.3721 seconds. There are other factors to take into account. Eddie has been in F1 since 1993. Pedro has been in F1 since 1999. Pedro had 2 years of F1 experience with bottom rung teams before teaming with Eddie. Don't you think that Eddie - being the number one driver, with that much more experience - having driven for a world championship team - than Pedro - should have dominated him in EVERY aspect of the season? How much did Eddie make last year?? I think it was on the order of $18 mio USD (I might be wrong, but I think I'm right around the number). $18 mio USD, more experienced, better quality of teams previously driven for, number one driver with all the benefits that go along with that (mechanical and staffing)...and almost identical results. Has Eddie ever made a poor team a good to great team? ----"Eddie made all his team-mates (with one notable exception) look slow."---- When I read your above commment again, I think you may agree that the actual data does not bear that out. p.s. I am not a family friend of Pedro's. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 419 Registered: 10-2002 |
...and as far as teammates are concerned, until Rubens nobody got even as close to MS' times as Eddie did. Not much and he would have been WC a few years ago. True, there are more things to a full fledged champion and the car didn't improve after Silverstone. But from the outside it is hard to say how much was the drivers fault and how much the teams inability to regroup around their new #1 driver. Todt wasn't much of a leader/support that time. Frentzen? Please, you gotta be kidding. He was slow even in a dominating Williams. And last year's Jag was just a dog. Even Lauda admitted that. And who took it to #3 in Monza? Of course debating drivers is a bit like discussing music tastes, or even religions. Each to his own. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2002 |
Eddie's sister Sonia was his physiotherapist. She was self employed and Eddie was just one of her clients until he signed for Ferrari when she started to work exclusively for Eddie. She was also his PA. During Eddie's Ferrari years Sonia started a relationship with one of the mechanics. Last year they had a daughter together. When Eddie left Ferrari Sonia started spending her time organising the Grand Prix Balls which take place at a few of the GP's. Matt, I think we'll just have to agree to differ. Eddie made all his team-mates (with one notable exception) look slow. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 386 Registered: 3-2001 |
Personally, I never thought that Eddie was that great of a talent. Sure, he could bring the car around the track, but F1 is SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. Frentzen was a better driver than Eddie. What did Eddie do to make the Jag better?? Complain to the media?? Is that what you want your number 1 driver (who you are paying tens of millions of dollars/year to do?) Nothing like your top driver making you look like sh*t! Lets be serious here....Eddie was in it for the money. Nothing wrong with that, but if you are not the best (and making the team better), then you are expendable. Sort of like Alesi....a big personality, but no success. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 392 Registered: 10-2002 |
What ever happened to Eddie's sister? Wasn't she his personal therapist or something? Also what ever happened to his website (eddie-irvine.com) as it was advertised on his helmet? For the longest time that site only had a couple of pictures and nowadays one is rerouted to a German Irvine site. Weird. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 365 Registered: 10-2002 |
Anthony, that is pretty funny. BTW: Coincidentally I did the 'CART' drive just a month after the F1 and that was an interesting comparison. The differences were just as you expected them to be by looking at their numbers: The 'CART' was way heavier and less agile. It felt more like riding on a huge bowling ball going through the oval, barely kissing the walls. Whereas the F1 was incredibly impressive in its cornering, braking and acceleration power, much more nimble and agile I'd say. The 'CART' instructor asked everybody for their 'racing background' and once I mentioned, that I just drove an F1, his eyes lid up and he said, "ok, you'll be fine then, anybody who drove a F1 can deal with these". I wasn't so sure about that as it is quite different, but got the hang of it soon enough. Also have to admit, that these 'CART' are not perfect replicas and therefore changing gears is not part of the picture. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2002 |
Andreas, you might like this: http://www.tifosi-club.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/004121.html | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 356 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks DES. You and I are the only ones at work with decent download speeds. Everybody else has 54k modems and gets annoyed by pictures... ...hopefully not! BTW: Check out www.driving101.com, maybe that helps your dream come true. If nothing else it is not that much money and a ton of fun. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1614 Registered: 8-2002 |
Am i the only one who gets turned on by those pictures...? | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1033 Registered: 10-2001 |
Anthony, I agree Jordan is making a mistake. The reason Ferrari is so successful is because they have money, money from product sales (forget about the cars!). Jordan needs some of that T-shirt and model car money! Irvine was a great way to bring fans to the Jordan team. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 354 Registered: 10-2002 |
Eddie might be out of F1, but he hasn't quit racing:   He was seen testing for the Penske at an undisclosed oval racetrack in the US. ;-) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1613 Registered: 8-2002 |
...of course, if i was as good as i wish i am, i suppose it wouldn't matter how old i was... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1610 Registered: 8-2002 |
Andreas, i don't know if i'll ever know- quite frankly, i don't think i'll ever find out... They say some fantasies are meant to only remain fantasies... i don't know if oval racing would thrill me... speed is nice, but i need twisties... i appreciate your feedback and your unique point of view- it makes much sense... If i ever find out, you'll be first person i tell... Thank you... | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 351 Registered: 10-2002 |
DES, in some ways I hope you'll find out, that your talents are not for F1 stardom. Why? Because I believe, that regardless of talent, you need nurturing from an early age. The Schumis drove go karts at age 5 on their father's track and that's when those neurons connect in your brain and turn you into a wunderkind with the most sensitive of behinds possible. I think, that even if you'd start your racing career now, you'd probably not get very far. That's why I was so relieved in my racing class when I realized, that I might be above the average car driver in my car control, but not much more and that there are tons of more talented people out there. That was good, cause it showed me, that at some distant point in my past I didn't make the wrong choice (not that I really ever had to make a conscious decision). It'd be very painful to realize, that I could have been another Senna, if I'd only started out earlier. And that's why I hope you'll also find out, that you're the fastest guy on your block. But on your block only. ...of course If you learn, that you are the world's biggest undiscovered talent and only lack some experience and can't quite make it into F1, well, er, hmm, there is still oval racing... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1586 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jon, great question... what it all boils down to in that case is loyalty; How well is my team treating me...? If they're paying me 35-40k a year (after taxes ) and they're treating me like gold, then i stay with them. i don't need to be pampered, i just need to be respected. If they're not treating me with respect, then i'll go with the other team- with a strong consideration for the team that's offering me an Enzo...! Don't mistake my kindness for weakness... My boss doesn't pamper me or cater to me in any way, but he respects me... He respects my opinions, even when ours differ. He points things out when he doesn't agree, to show why he doesn't- and he doesn't do it in a conDEScending way; a little respect goes a long way. i don't know if i could ever say, 'yes, i'll drive for free' as i need a source of income to continue paying rent, buying food, etc. Jon, it sounds like racing is your life and that you make sure you live it to the fullest... i'm adding your brain to the list of brains i want to pick... Anthony, please forgive me for dragging this thread into off-topic territory, i'm sorry... | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2002 |
Getting back on to the topic, Irvine has said that he would drive for Jordan for free but he wasn't going to pay for the privilege, which seems fair enough to me. I think Eddie Jordan has made a mistake here. He could have got great mileage out of Irvine. His sales of caps and t-shirts would certainly be many times higher than they were last year. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 401 Registered: 8-2001 |
Des, I am impressed with your loyalty. In today's world there is not much of it left anymore. It's sad to say but the almighty dollar does rule most of the time. As for driving for free, I am sure we all would do it for the fun but at some point I would want to get paid. I can understand driving for less at a team you enjoy more so than another but if all things are equal (a term we economists like to beat to death) I want to get paid. In guess it all boils down to how materialistic folks are and how much money they need to be happy. For some folks money is irrelevant and something used only to pay the bills, feed one's self and provide for the family. For other's it's a measure of success and lastly for some it's a way of acquiring the materialistic things they desire. In my case I am a total car nut. Early on in my life I was convinced that I needed (let me rephrase that WANTED) expensive things to make me happy. This included an expensive watch collection, expensive suits, expensive cars, you name it. The older I get the more I focus on just a few materialistic things CARS, CARS, CARS, and more cars. Race cars to be exact. I sold all my other materialistic things because the really didn't invoke much passion. I spend ludicrous amounts of money on my race and track cars but now wear a $30 timex. I went from driving expensive street cars (Porsche 911's, BMW 7 series, Lexus..etc.) to driving a mid level station wagon (Audi) and a one ton pickup truck (Chevy). What I do spend money on is my Challenge car and my BMW track car. Anything car related is a passion to me including almost all forms of motorsport. I watch IRL, CART, F1, touring cars, Rallying, FIM Super bikes and even God forbid NASCAR. So to answer your question and ask you one. Money is important to me beyond paying bills and providing for my family in that it allows me to fuel my passion for fast cars. I guess my question to you is whether or not you would drive for free if you had a competing offer of a brand new ENZO? Would you turn it down?See I am smart I am playing to your passion for Ferrari's not money. As for getting on a track. Try indoor go karts. For $25 you can get 20 minutes in a go kart (sometimes they even have shifter karts). if you can set some fast times in a go kart you will know if you have talent or not. Hope this helps! Regards, Jon | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1580 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jon, i never said i'd drive for free, just a little more than what i'm making now, which, believe me, isn't a whole lot... At my job, i work my ass off and i'm happy with the money i get... i was recently offered a job with another company, to run their satellite office, here on Long Island, but i declined... They were offering a substantially higher amount of money than what i'm presently making, however, i have a certain loyalty to my boss & his company... Also, i have perks that another company just won't give me; like walking in at 9:30 when i'm supposed to be there at 8:30 and not hearing a word about it... My boss knows i bend over backwards when i'm there, so he usually doesn't sweat the small stuff... Sometimes, it's hard, but the realization that money isn't everything always stays with me... If i raced for a team and was driving better than the other guys and they were getting paid more than i was, it wouldn't matter to me, at all... Seriously, all i want to do is drive... If i was the best driver in the world making less than the worst driver in the world, i wouldn't care- as long as i get to drive. Driving is the only thing that makes me happy... If another company approached me and offered me more money to drive for them, i don't know what i'd say- if i was happy with the current team i was on, i would say no; again, money is awesome, but it's not everything... Although rare, loyalty will sometimes outweigh the almighty dollar... Jon, you're right that driving on the street or parkway, etc. does not require much effort at all, let alone skill, but it's all i have to work with... Practice makes perfect and although i'm limited in my learning capacities at the present time, experience has proven worthwhile in some cases- if you do something over and over, you're bound to learn how to do it better with time. i could very well be one of the worst drivers in the world- that remains to be seen, as i've yet to come across the opportunity to drive on a track, however even if i am the worst driver, that still won't change my passion for driving. i know there are things i need to learn that i will never learn driving on streets or parkways and that the track is the only place i'll learn them... With time, though, comes experience, knowledge- even wisdom; which is something you appear to have... i'm no academic scholar, but a modicum of common sense tells me that to assume i'm some great sports driver would be beyond silly- roaring down the expressway at high speeds shows nothing but disregard for the speed limit and a subconscious DESire for a hefty fine... i am not without insite and i clearly see your point... i appreciate the feedback and hope to one day know for sure, just what it is that i'm made of... When i find out, you'll be the first ones to know... | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 400 Registered: 8-2001 |
DES, Everyone is willing to break into the big leagues for free when starting out. Whether it's baseball, basketball, a job at Goldman Sachs, or and f1 drive we would all do anything to get our foot in the door. However, after you've made it there and you see everyone else getting a zillion bucks for their work how would you feel if you were working as hard or harder then they were and getting paid nothing? I think you would feel very underappreciated and worthless. Especially if the team is benefiting from your great driving by raking in the zillions and here you are taking the bus to work as they leave the track in their Benz's which your great driving paid for. Once you have proved your worth and performed it's only natural that you would want to be compensated in a manner that matches you skill level. Also think of it this way. If you got that F1 drive and were winning races for Jordan but they refused to pay you because you promised them you would drive for free, how long do you think it would be until Ferrari or someone else, with whom you made no promise to drive for free, would approach you to make you a bazillion dollar offer. What are you going to do, turn it down? I don't think so! As for your driving skills I can't comment since I don't personally know you or have seen you on the track. What I can tell you from experience is that there is very little skill in storming down the highway in your street car. Not much you learn on the street applies to the track. I can personally tell you from attending at least 50+ track events in the past few years is that most people come to the track the first time thinking they are going to storm out the door and set the track on fire. None ever do. Every once in a while you get someone that has some natural talent or ability and is able to learn very fast, but I can count these folks on one hand. Just go to any FCA event and watch. There will be some fast people in the Red run group (and some slow ones too). When you watch the other run groups very few people are fast. Sure there are plenty of folks who have a fast car that can fly down the straight but that is not what makes a fast driver. It's the ability to carry speed through the turns and this is where you seperate the people with talent (either god given or acquired thorugh learning) and the people with no talent. Case in point. I have attended several FCA events in my 15 year old BMW on occassion when my Challenge car was in the shop. Everyone kept asking me what I had done to the engine in that car (the BMW), since I was able to hang with much faster cars and some cases pass them. Keep in mind that the car in question, while modified for track use, is still a 3200 pound four door sedan that is over 15 years old. The answer was "nothing" the engine is stock but the driver has been modified. I thought I had all the talent in the world blazing down the highway in my Porsche's. First track event I ever did I was passed by a car that had 300 less horsepower than my baby. I could lose the guy on the straights but in the corners he would catch me. The moral of the story is that it ain't what you drive but how you drive it !! You may have some natural talent but you will never know until you go to the track. Street driving can't provide much info on how well you drive. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 1988 BMW M5 Club Racer #44 1998 Spec Racer Ford #6 | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1569 Registered: 8-2002 |
Anthony, that money is for emergencies only- it used to be 12k, now it's down to 10... $10 bucks here and there, for gas, the day before pay day is cool, but i refuse to lean on anyone for any real assistance, so i need that money in case i get myself in a jam... i did some silly go-kart thing, once, but it wasn't real go-karting- it went maybe 15-20mph tops and we went- dare i say it- in an oval...! As far as my driving skills are concerned, my uncle thinks i'm crazy; my friend Bird thinks i'm a good driver and the guy i blew by at 98mph before, futilely trying to make it to the dentist on time just thinks i'm an ass4ole... i don't know how good my "skills" are, comparatively, i just know that i love driving more than anything else... It's the only thing that makes me happy... Until i come across some "spare" cash, rocketing down the parkway in my Nissan Testarossa ( ) will be the closest i get racing... i'm positive there is greater, undiscovered talent out there, i don't dare think i'm the best driver in the world- i just think i'd give most of 'em a good run for their money... Andreas, i figured being overweight would help me when going down hill... No...? | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2002 |
Uh, low blow Anthony. Competition, shudder. Loved go karting, but also realized, that no Schumi is lost in me. Besides it doesn't help if you're overweight, especially not in go karts. But they are mighty fun. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2002 |
DES, if you have 1K then why don't you spend some of it on trying go-karting or some other cheap motorsport? You could then find out if your opinion on your driving skills is shared by anyone else. I don't doubt that you are the greatest undiscovered talent ever but it may be useful for you to try competing. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1566 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jon... 10% of my wealth is 1k- & i'd gladly give it up to risk my life in a Formula 1 car, racing around a track, competing, driving, thrilling happiness into my veins and lungs... i'm driven to drive... Driving is as much a part of me as breathing is, to you... If i am without driving, i am void of passion... | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2002 |
So true:
Better to retire with respect than end up an also ran. Atleast Eddie won races, and reached the pinnacle, that many never did. Pete | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jon, thanks. Love it. Since I don't real racing like you, my helmet will probably never expire nor ever be inspected...That Wurz' helmet is beautiful too. My only concern is that the suit 'shrinks'...around the waistline | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 399 Registered: 8-2001 |
Andreas, Nice helmet. I have the same Biefe Irvine helmet but without the tobacco advertising. It's a SA95 so it was replaced by a Alexander Wurz Biefe helmet in 2000 (couldn't bring myslef to get Eddie's Jaguar helmet). DES, I know it's easy for us to sit here and think gee I'd drive for free.... what a great job. While we see Eddie and other drivers twice a month on TV, F1 is hard work with plenty of testing, PR work, and other commitments. Then there is the matter of risking your life. I think Eddie would have driven for free, but that was not an option. Jordan needed Eddie I. to pay for his drive and we are not talking about pocket change. They wanted an estimated 2-3 million and that is 10% of his wealth, not a small sum. I respect Eddie for his statement about f1 being the pinnacle of motorsport and the fact that there is no reason to go to a lower formula. Too many racers hang on to their careers by movign lower and lower down the racing scale. Regards, Jon P. Kofod | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 333 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well, I guess it will be then my duty to 'represent' Eddie in F1 until he comes back:  And I'm one heavy stand-in... ;-) Anthony, either way it will be great fun! | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2002 |
Eddie did enjoy his time at Le Mans but he wouldn't race there again as there are too many amateurs who don't know what they're doing so it is too dangerous in his eyes. DES, Jordan would love to have Eddie driving for them but they can't afford to pay him. Eddie was (quite rightly) unwilling to pay for a drive. Felipe Massa may now get the drive as Red Bull might pay Jordan. It has always been the same in F1 - the people in the lesser teams pay to drive in the hope that their talent is recognised and they get to drive for a top team where they will be paid handsomly. Andreas, Rachael just spoke to Eddie's friend and it looks like they are going to concentrate their time and effort on a business they started last year doing VIP hospitality at Grand Prixs. This may mean that they'll be around at the GP's. This hopefully means that we'll still be able to have a beer with Eddie's family at Imola. I'll keep you informed. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2002 |
The cream rises to the top ... Jordon is not the cream ... and Eddie is, er, ... I hope I am not offending anyone here, but F1 today suffers from too many drivers that just circulate and wait for the race to come to them. In my humble opinion Frentzen is one of them, and so was ... Schumacher (M) never has that attitude, and infact this has caused him to make stupid mistakes and loose points, but atleast he goes out there to TRY and win and if the car is uncompetitive will almost break it trying. A true racer ... and does not expect luck or whatever to bring the race to him. This problem, I believe, is a result of too much corporate pressure on the sport and many drivers, drive to finish and thus do not race ... and some are just not racers in their heart, but good fast drivers. I believe he really likes Le Mans type racing so maybe he might continue racing in some form ... he won't be returning to F1. Pete Seems like an interesting character though, not too affected by the corporate pressure ... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1535 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ok, Andreas, thank you for the clarification... i kinda have a problem with that, though... When Irvine first started this, i'm willing to bet he didn't want to give money or receive money- rather he just wanted to race for the love of racing... Now he won't go back to his original team 'cause they don't have enough money to pay him...? That's a little cheesy if you ask me... i'll say it, up front, no matter what happens: all i need is a little more money than i'm making now and even if i'm the best racecar driver in the world, a thousand times over, i still only want that little bit of money- just to pay bills and such. What i really want is that track in that car... That's what it's all about, right...? Just my two cents... | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 330 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes DES (hey, that rhimes!). Good drivers get paid, unproven or bad drivers have to bring $$$ to get a seat. Eddie has become quite a wealthy guy driving F1 and his sticker price went up over the years, especially after he ended up 2nd in the WC. Jordan is close to bankruptcy and can't afford to pay him. They rather have an unproven guy who brings cash to the team. Understandable. It is sad not to see Eddie in the sport, but even if he had gotten the Jordan seat, it wouldn't have been much of a consolation. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1519 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ok, maybe i'm not completely getting this- & try not to flame me, 'cause i'm not too familiar with who this guy is or Jordan- but i get the impression from the article below that he won't be racing with them 'cause they're not gonna pay him enough or something to that effect... Is that what was conveyed here...? | ||
| izel k. (Ferrarist)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarist Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2001 |
He's talented but unlucky. He would show his skills better with the new radical change of the rules. I wish he'll be back in 2004. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 328 Registered: 10-2002 |
What a bummer! But not totally unexpected. I wish him well and hope he doesn't hurt himself driving some crazy cars/races like ralley. Many F1 drivers got really hurt/killed after they left the sport (Piquet, Winkelhock, Fittipaldi, Surer to name a few). | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Junior Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2002 |
Eddie Irvine has admitted that he won't be driving in the Formula 1 World Championship this season after talks with Jordan broke down. Irvine was chasing the remaining drive on the 2003 grid, but told British tabloid The Sun that his chances of the seat have evaporated. He has not ruled out a return in 2004, however. "It's a sad day," he said. "I have decided not to drive in F1 this year � or at least at the moment. In July last year I made up my mind to drive for Jordan Grand Prix. I had very strong feelings about returning to the team that started my F1 career. Unfortunately, due to the economic downturn, Jordan are forced to look for a driver who brings extra funds to the team. I can only bring speed, reliability and greater experience. "It's a huge shame," he added. ""It's a shame because I really would have enjoyed the rule changes, especially single-lap qualifying. The rules are sure to be better suited to drivers with my characteristics." Irvine finished second in the 1999 World Championship when he was promoted to the Ferrari number one role after team-mate Michael Schumacher broke his leg at Silverstone. Since then, his career has tailed off after moving the underperforming Jaguar squad. I think this is terrible news. Eddie would have been great for Jordan. I'll be phoning his Dad over the weekend to find out if they are still going to Imola. |