| Author |
Message |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 419
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:09 am: | |
Andy,
On most race cars the problem is always the same one. If the revs are too low a race clutch will not hook up and you stall the engine. The flipside is that the higher revs needed to get it to hookup burn up the clutch surface and glaze the edges.
It becomes a fine art to get it right. On my Challenge car half the wear on the sintered clutch comes from a) pulling the car out of the trailer/putting it back in and b) pulling away from a dead stop in first gear.
That being said comparing the clutch plates on the 360GT which is production based to the R8 is not a good comparison.
The R8 has a flywheel that is nearly half the size of the GT car and the clutch weighs probably half what the 360GT car does. Some race cars (can't remember of the R8 is one or not) technically don't even have a flywheel in the conventional sense.
While it is realatively easy for me to get my 355 C in gear I doubt I could get the R8 out of the pits at all.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
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Andy Klueber (Adk)
New member
Username: Adk
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 5:23 am: | |
The problem of stalling that the 360 GT has when leaving the pits. Is the same problem the Audi R8s have especially the older spec cars of the R8 i.e. the Champion R8 and not the Jorst cars.
And if you've watched Speed coverage of Le Mans when Allen McNish was apart of the broad case team.
Allen has said that the stalling can be problem when leaving the pits but it can be avoided when leaving pits. By basically Stand On The Gas when leaving.
And leaving at higher engine rpms than normal. And from what I've heard on the various Speed sportcar progams Grand-AM/ ALMS/FIA GT and the like.
All the drivers who have experince with the 360 GT say the same thing has Allen does about R8 stalling.
Leave the pits at a higher engine rpms to avoid the stalling the car.
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Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 72
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 12:49 pm: | |
I do not know why the use of paddles was forced on them. They tested with gated shifters and were as quick or quicker than the Porsches but were forced to change to paddles after testing. Ferrari also had to go to smaller(38mm) restrictors. Cut about 50 hp out, limiting acceleration out of the corners.
I heard one of the commentators say that the Ferraris had the edge on top speed but needed more torque out of the corners. Hmmm.
I have heard for quite some time now that this is really a Porsche show. Why was the LMP class done away with to allow the slower DP class that allows Porsche engine cars to be more competitive. Why were SRPll cars restricted further this year allowing them to slow down also? Why was Ferrari restricted further. Lap time between testing and the 24 Hour went up about 1.5 seconds. This is roughly the time differential that the Porsche held over the Ferrari in the race.
What would have happened if the Ferrari had been allowed to run the gated shifter?? No loss of laps because of stalling on track and in the pits and 1.5 Sec better lap times. Makes you wonder doesn't it. Roughly 650 laps at 1.5 second lower times equates to 975 seconds or 16.25 minutes.
The Ferrari finished about 18 minutes(9 laps) behind the Racers Group car. Now, how much time was lost restarting the Ferrari when it would stall with the paddles? It would have been a very intersting finish.
Not to take anything away from the Racers Group car and team. They performed flawlessly and are to be commended for their professionalism and preparedness.
The leading Ferrari is going to run Sebring, LeMans and the entire ALMS with a gated box shifter. Maybe we will get to see what they can really do when allowed to compete more openly.
I guess all we can do is wait and see.
Politics seems to be very apparent in racing also. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 733
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 12:08 pm: | |
i'm confused re: the shifters.
why were the 360GTs required to use paddle shifters? the GT3s were certainly using sticks on the floor. same class.
?
doody. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 3434
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:29 am: | |
Matt, I agree 100%, but that's the problem, Audi won't be back in ALMS this year and many other teams disappear after just a couple years. It's way too expensive under that formula, but very cool cars though. Those DP cars are ugly and slow, but they're less expensive, yet still allow major manufacturers like Porsche and Ford to have their name on them. |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 385
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 9:06 am: | |
I don't think I have ever seen an uglier class of cars, than those new prototypes!!
Personally, I liked to watch the tremendous speed differentials which took place on the track. There wasn't much of that with this new 'class'.
I think the ALMS is a much more exciting series to watch than this one. I mean, who really wants to watch a bunch of slow kit cars run around, when you can see the Audi/R&S/Bently/etc on ALMS?
However, it was nice to see some racing live on tv. |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 69
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
I got word that the Ferraris tested with the 6 speed gated box and were as quick or quicker than the Porsches. They were required to change their gearboxes between the testing 45 days ago and the actual race. It was their choice to run the regualar gated shifter but were told they had to change the actuation to paddles. Also they had to reduce their restrictor plates to 38mm resulting in a loss of approximately 50 hp.
Hmmm, the LMP cars had to be changed to DP and qualifying times went from under 1:40 up to 1:50. Ferrari had to add smaller restrictors and change gearboxes from their 1st choice. I have heard that this has gotten to be a Porsche show and it showed this weekend.
I believe that the #35 car had a 6 speed gated box when it was on the floor at FoD in November.
In the interview with Giuseppe Risi, he told Speed channel that they were going to run LeMans and the full ALMS series. You cannot run paddles in those races. It has to be traditional shifting. Maybe we will get a chance to see just how well the cars can do with the gated shifters. I hope so.
It was a very good finish anyway with Ferrari finishing in 2nd overall. |
Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member
Username: Davel
Post Number: 229
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 7:41 am: | |
Race was great. Got to hang with my college pal Simon Gregg in his motorhome. This weekend marked the 30th anniversary of his father, Peter Gregg winning his first 24hr at Daytona. He introduced me to Justin Bell, his team mate in the #40 Vette. They had moved up to 3rd early on then finally gave out over the nite on Saturday or early Sunday.
Nice to see real sportscars doing so well! I was really hoping one of the 360M's would take the race. Not a bad result anyhow and a good one for the Porsche folks. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 3429
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 9:34 pm: | |
Yes, Bitter sweet for Buckler. Won overall with a GT no less, but his other two Porsches went out in spectacular crashes. That last one was really bad, was that a pole he about hit before he rolled up on his side? Looks like there was a little armco around that pole, he took out the armco, but barely missed the pole. That could of been bad. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 414
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
If they'd just ditch that stupid F1 transmission they could have won possibly. Kellners and company stalled the car at lest a half dozen times in the pits and stalled out on the track twice. The other 360 spun a few times when engaging a gear on the track. The sister car also had transmission problems and it was the same issue last year that kept the FOW car in the pits for a transmission change for 2 hours.
They need to get a real transmission and ditch the F1 thingy. A little bit more torque to get out of the corners wouldn't hurt either.
All in all a great race and still exciting right down to the last 30 minutes.
For a while I was worried that Mutiwhatever, Ford Focus might win. Man that thing is ugly. Looks worse than a real focus.
Being a former Porsche owner and Porsche race fan I was happy to see Buckler get the win (hope this isn't sacrilege to say this on a Ferrari site).
Do miss the prototypes and the 333SP's but change was inevitable. I also think they are trying to totaly get rid of the prototypes by forcing the SRPII's out as well with the heavy restrcition imposed this year. They couldn't keep up with anyone and looked like they were moving in slow motion compared to the GT cars. Last year the only cars fster than the SRPII's were the bigger SRP's.
Anyone see the second Racer's Group car fly across the infield and hit a few guard rails before flipping over. Looked scary.
Great race. Congratulations to Porsche and Ferrari.
Regards,
Jon |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 3426
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:40 am: | |
Yes, turns out the #83 won't challenge the Ferrari much all else being equal. However, I think the #83 just had it's last pit stop and the Ferrari has to come in once I believe for fuel. Even so, the Ferrari is two laps ahead. I thought the #24 and 46 were going to have a good battle in GTS, but then the #46 only has a couple gears. I love 24 hour races, but usually all the cars are spaced laps between by now and not much position racing. I'm glad the Ferrari has had such a good showing. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 778
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:28 am: | |
Yea Rob it's tight, but the Ferrari #35 is consistently pulling 109-110 mph laps...incredible. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 3424
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
What a great race, after this last pit stop to get new tires the 3rd place #83 Porsche is right on it's heals. This last hour is going to be good. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 777
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 10:39 am: | |
Looks like #35 has moved into 2nd place!
11 laps down, but looks like they're gaining some ground. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 774
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 9:29 am: | |
You're right Doody. 3 out of 5 is extremely good. Far better than the Porsches are doing.
Only bad news, from what I can tell by the stats, the Ferrari's are quite a bit slower (top.112mph) per lap than the Porsches (top. 115mph)lap speeds. In the shorter races the 360's will definately need to find more speed imo. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 726
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 9:21 am: | |
with class info:
#35 3rd overall; 2nd in class
#20 10th overall; 5th in class
#34 14th overall; 7th in class
if my math is correct, three of the five (#33, #40) 360GTs may finish? that's nothing to sneeze at.
doody. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 773
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 8:47 am: | |
Looks like at least 3 Ferrari's still running, 2 in the top 10. Zippo leader board has standings as of 8:45 CST/9:45 EST as:
3rd - #35
7th - #20
15th - #34
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JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 771
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 8:17 pm: | |
the Zippo site showing :
9th #34
10th #35
17th #33
@ 8:20CST
wish I could get it on cable. must be optional to whatever I have, darn it. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 412
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 7:58 pm: | |
8 hours and it's not looking good. FOW car hit the wall and looks like it might be done. Kellner's car lost a wheel half way through his stint so it could be a broken axle rather than a simple loose wheel nut.
Their droping like fly's and the Porsche's keep motoring on!
Darn Mosler is now in 4th.
Jon
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Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 411
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 6:47 pm: | |
7 hours in and Kellners is in 4th and the FOW car is in 7th (3 laps down).
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23 |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 769
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 3:49 pm: | |
Uhhhh Ohhhh...trouble:
DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. (February 1, 2003) -- Early in hour three of the Rolex 24 At Daytona the field went under its second full course caution of the day when the #22 JMB Racing USA Team Ferrari caught on fire. |
Jere Dunham (Questioner)
Junior Member
Username: Questioner
Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 3:36 pm: | |
#35 Risi Comp started 17th, suffered F1 gearbox problem and dropped back to 42nd. Has run very hard since. Now running 3rd in class and 5th overall. #33 Fow Now 9th overall, 5th in class #20 JMB 13th overall, 9th in class, #34 Ferri Comp 17th overall, 1oth in class, #22 JMB 37th overall, 17th in class |