| Author |
Message |
PSk (Psk)
Junior Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 206
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
Exactly other manufacturers need to step up ... but just because Ferrari is winning should not be equated with the racing NOW being boring. If you like it has always been boring because the best car, with best team and driver wins ... that is motor racing ... even at club level.
Thus do not make fun of the sport by trying to make it every thing for everybody. Many people will never like motor racing let alone F1, thus there is a limited market ... and F1 went through a boom, because of Schumachers struggle to get Ferrari to win, it was great TV. Now that is over it is back to normal.
Thus leave it alone, and the small percentage of the worlds population who actually like the SPORT will continue to watch the rest (who do not get it) can piss off, and go watch something else, like BTCC or NASCAR ... which apparently is more enteraining (? or though I don't personally see this)
Plus if Bridgestone can make a tyre and Michelin can't ... tough, F1 is about the best winning not the most even or fair. F1 is capitalisim at its best.
Pete |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 999
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 9:50 am: | |
Psk & Jon:
Car racing is a team sport. Drivers talk about balance, i.e., good handling, acceleration, everything with a good combination. An example of that would be the BMW engine: great power, but the chassis isn't always up to the task, or the tires go off too soon. Given the great technological racing going on, we just don't know whos got what. I've never raced cars (I'm not counting the shfiter kart), but I've certainly got about 20+ years racing motorcycles, and I know what the manufacturers did with the bikes, I can certainly guess that it has to be worse with the cars because there is a lot more money there.
I've been the F1 races, and even pitted with them when they ran the Ceasar's Palace F1 event in the 80s. F1 has always been the top of the heap, so I don't like the new rules to make it something else, but I didn't go to the US GP this year, because I knew Ferrari would win, that there would be no competition. The other manufacturers either need to step up to the plate, or get out of the way for other manufacturers to get into F1 (where is GM?) and provide a little more effort. Also the tire companies could use a little more parity, because it seems that the tires appear to be part of the problem.
Just my thoughts.
Art |
PSk (Psk)
Junior Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 198
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 9:32 pm: | |
Couldn't agree more Jon,
F1 is supposed to be about motor racing not television ratings ... if you find it boring watch something else!
Unfortunately sport as a concept is being ruined by money grabbing bastards ... usually TV station owners, and they only televise sport for ratings.
I would prefer that F1 was not televised, and the sport stayed a sport and did not become a TV sitcom ... or circus. Yes I will miss seeing it, but revel in the fact that racing in its purest form is still happening.
I think Bernie has devalued F1 so much with these stupid rule changes that F1 will be seen as just another race series ... and end in the toilet.
Roll on the manufacturers series, and f**k Bernie!
Should we ban Michael Schumacher because he is too good and making all the other drivers look pathetic (as many are) ... the good drivers always end up in the best cars, and we were very lucky that MS wanted to prove how really good he is by going to Ferrari and helping them back to success. He could have easily gone to McLaren or Williams and then they would have won for something like 10 years in a row!!!!, how BORING would that have been. Instead we had from '97 - '00 of fantastic emotional years, watching him trying to do the impossible. Now he has done it, and Ferrari have woken up and all of a sudden it is considered boring ?????
Thus TURN YOUR TV OFF if you find anybody other than an ENGLISH team winning boring, because we have had to suffer that for nearly 21 years. If you look at the stats for the last 21 years, either Lotus, McLaren or Williams, with a few minor exceptions, have won the championship ... and yet nothing was done ...
WHY?, because most were watching the great Ferrari team trying as hard as ever, every year to win, and oh how we were so involved and hoping ... but they failed, but they kept going back and trying. And every year we hoped again that this year was going to return Ferrari to the top again ... '84 was close, Prost was close ... oh how painful ...
No they did not moan (sure Enzo play politician with the rules) but they stuck at it, understanding what the sport really means. But oh no these English teams after only loosing for 2 years ... have shown their lack of back bone and started moaning that Ferrari needs to be handicapped. Personally I think that the top class English teams like McLaren (although Ron can be a wanker about things sometimes) and Williams would rather fight evenly ... but the pathetic pretenders like Jordan, BAR and the biggest joke in motor racing history Jaguar do not understand that motor racing is one of the hardest sports in the world to win at ... and they want it handed to them.
Shame on Bernie tainting the sport, shame on him for backing down to TV money and to these weak teams who do not deserve to ever win.
Pete |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 475
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:41 am: | |
Sorry Dave,
But the rule changes are stupid. If you want entertainment watch BTCC, ASCAR, or some other form of Uk racing. Or you can watch IRL or NASCAR here in the US.
I've been watching F1 since 1978 and there have been plenty of periods where one team dominated and there were never any rule changes then (minor ones). The TAG Porsche's, Mclaren Honda's all dominated for 3+ seasons.
I get sick of people blaming Ferrari for making F1 boring. I didn't complain during the 80's or 90's and whine about rule changes because Ferrari couldn't produce a car faster than a French lorry (Prost's statement).
If you think F1 is boring go tell Max and Bernie to get rid of those stupid grooved tires and create a spec rear wing (or lower the dimensions). Bring back mechanical grip.
The one engine rule, no in in between refueling, banning of telemtry, and such are all stupid solutions to a greater problem, namely that Ferrari has built a better race car and the rest can't keep up.
I think you will be surprised this year at the pace of the McLaren. I think that's why Ron Dennis is furious about the rule changes. He knows he is getting closer and the rule changes will effect his success as well.
Regards,
Jon
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Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 563
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 5:25 am: | |
..shame after all the verbal diatribe below the actual racing is still low on entertainment value.
Good job you guys have something to talk about after several months when the racings all done cos there's bugger all to get interested in whilst they 'race'.
Roll on the new season and some rule changes being in effect! |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 473
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 9:14 pm: | |
I have to agree that MS does a good bit of sandbagging to save the car and get points. Perfect example was the last race of the season at Suzuka. MS pulled nearly 2.4 seconds on the first lap on RB, by the second lap he was ahead by 5.7 and then the gap stayed constant at 5-6 seconds until the first pit stop. Both were on the same fuel stop strategy.
Yeah, RB shows some speed now and then and might make the top five list of current F1 racers, but he will never win the title with MS as his team mate. Even if they were on equal footing he still couldn't beat MS. The great drivers are not merely fast, they are do astounding things that others in F1 can't do.
Senna's lap at Donnington where he went from 5th to first in less than one lap passing Prost's superior car in the wet is an example. Also MS a few years back needing to make up 28 seconds to win with less than 20 laps to go. Ross told him to turn it up a notch and he did and won.
These are things you will never see from a RB or DC.
Regards,
Jon
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PSk (Psk)
Junior Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 191
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Good point Arthur,
But while Rubens looked okay in his Stewart he did not destroy his team mates as MS did and does ... even on his VERY FIRST drive at Spa in qualifying (out qualified his team mate by heaps and managed 5th'ed on the grid in his first F1 drive on Spa and first meeting).
Thus the best prospect gets the most attention. I personally have a lot of trouble with drivers moaning about unfair treatment ... the way to solve this is on the track and in testing. If Rubens consistently blew him away when testing, etc. then eventually the team will wake up.
I admitt that the team would be currently blinkered because they have one driver with 4 WC and the other with NONE ... thus Rubens would have to do something pretty amazing to sway them.
It is natural to blame their treatment, but it is the same as the builder blaming his tools ... the cream of the crop rises to the top no matter what they get given ... and Rubens has risen, he just has to prove to everybody that he is better than MS. He has done that in one race out of many so far ... if he keeps that level up he will get all the attention he deserves ... if he doesn't then he is NOT as good as MS and does not deserve the attention that he is moaning about.
Lets remember Prost at McLaren beating Senna to the championship ... when he was complaining about all the attention being on Senna (and it was obvious to see that McLaren wanted Senna to win), but Prost (in between moaning) got on with the job on the track and proved that that year he was better than Senna and walked away with the trophy.
If you were Ferrari, would you give the best car to Rubens or MS ... I know who I would give it to!
Pete
ps: I have huge respect for Jackie Stewart, but Rubens requires too much ego managing to ever be one of the true greats. MS, Gilles Villeneuve, Seena, Prost, Stewart and Moss did not need to have the team and others around them pumping up their ego every five minutes so that they will believe in themselves ... and thus be that little bit faster. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 993
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
Guys:
We don't know the difference between RB and MS. The cars may not be the same, the attention paid to the cars may not be the same, the crews working on the cars may not be equal. I remember being told that I had an identical bike to someone, but somehow he was 15 mph faster through the traps at Daytona (about 20 more HP). I once rode for an Italian race team. Politics has a lot to do with who gets the good tires (yeah, I know, they all look the same, but unless you got a chemistry lab, you can't tell who's got what compound in those tires), whose got the latest cams, engine management systems, etc.
Rubens did comment on his hope that once MS won the championship, that his (rubens) car would get more attention. Sometimes what you see, isn't what you get.
Art |
PSk (Psk)
Junior Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 179
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 11:37 pm: | |
Andrew,
quote:RB proved faster than MS several times and HE handed his race in Austria. When Todt isnt giving orders , he can be faster than MS . Im not saying he is always faster , just that he can and he proved it . Setting faster laps doesnt mean all that , Senna hardly did that and yet he won 41 races and 65 pole ...
Yes RB should have won at Austria, and he did deserve to win that race as that is the only time I have ever seen him out qualify and out race MS. Every other time that RB has been close to MS, MS has been crusing and saving his car making sure of the win.
You only have to look at the demolition job he did of RB and the others at Spa last year to realise that he has only been performing at 80% of his abilities. Yes RB is fast, but no current driver is capable of racing the whole race long as MS can (witness Hungraring (spelling ??) a few years ago).
I would like RB to continue his pushing of MS, and maybe one day prove that he is better than MS ... that would be great for the sport, but at the moment I am not convinced.
Remember even at Austria MS followed RB all the way home ... if it was the last race of the championship and RB's car was another marque ... I think he would have been all over the back of RB ...
The other area where MS puts the others to shame is his ability to pass, some cannot handle their car when the down force is lost ... but MS still seems to be able to make passes, the others just follow. Yes there has been times when even MS has had to follow, but there have been more times when we have witnessed REAL attempts that some others can only dream of.
Pete
ps: The other thing regarding Senna. All good drivers are fast when they need to be, and save the car all other times ... now we only see MS crusing because his car is too good, except at Spa where he was out to prove a point. But setting the fastest lap of the race shows that when MS had to push he was able to respond ... instead of just thinking about his bank account and next sexual conquest (like many others ... but not RB). |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 603
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 5:20 am: | |
RB proved faster than MS several times and HE handed his race in Austria. When Todt isnt giving orders , he can be faster than MS . Im not saying he is always faster , just that he can and he proved it . Setting faster laps doesnt mean all that , Senna hardly did that and yet he won 41 races and 65 pole ... |
MFZ (Kiyoharu)
New member
Username: Kiyoharu
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 1:03 am: | |
Jon, I know what you're trying to say. I do think that the boys and girls racing nowadays can't be compared to the boys and girls racing in the '60s. Remember when 38 years old is the average age of a Formula One Champion?
I think 6 seconds off pace is still within expectations, but supposedly Nico Rosberg got within 2 seconds of the time set by Ralf in the same car! Now can you convince me that the time he set was due to natural talent alone?
I think Kimi has a good chance of being a F1 Champion someday, but unless Honda can make a great engine (as great as the ones they made for Senna), Jenson's chances look slim at most. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 444
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 11:09 pm: | |
MFZ,
You do bring up an interesting point that many have pointed out. However that being said I have firsthand knowledge here in the US of how fast some of the younger kids have become.
Here in the US we have the Skip Barber Race School which has a ladder system for young talent to get to Indy/CART cars. Every year the top karting champions from the Skip Barber Go Kart Series get a test in a Champ car. A few years back I was at a test session where one of these kids who was around 14 or 15 years old drove one of Rahal's CART cars. He had never driven in an openwheel car before, let alone a 800 horsepower Indy car. He lapped within 6 seconds of Jimmy Vassars time.
Maybe not the best example but let's not forget that in all the lower formula including F3000/F3/Formula Nippon/Formula Renault etc. they do not use any driver aids.
I think ultimately it will lessen the pace of younger drivers gaining success so quickly but some such as Kimi and Jenson would have done well even without the driver aids.
Time will tell and yes I agree that after Silverstone we should see the result of all this.
Regards,
Jon |
MFZ (Kiyoharu)
New member
Username: Kiyoharu
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 11:55 am: | |
I don't know Jon, according to people I've spoken to, the kids of F1 these days got it easy. I recall current BMW man (and former Ferrari driver) Gerhard Berger saying that driving an F1 car back then, before all this driver aids like traction control, semi-auto gear shifts etc. etc, it was hard work. Nowadays a 17 year old kid can get inside and immediately go fast as all you need to do is find the right braking point. He was referring to Formula BMW champion Nico Rosberg (son of Keke) who test drove a Williams BMW as reward for winning the junior formula series and immediately reached lap times comparable to Williams regular drivers.
Maybe after the Britain GP, we'll see who has the real talent. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 438
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 10:50 am: | |
Also over the course of their three years together MS has out qualified RB by an average margin of .40 seconds, nearly half a second quicker in the same car.
I am sure Stewart meant well but to win the WC you can't just be fast once in a while you have to be fast all the time.
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Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 437
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 10:41 am: | |
F1 has changed a lot since Berger and Hill competed. I doubt that DC will be in a car in 8 years that is capable of winning the title when he couldn't do it in 98 and 99 with the same car Mika had which was clearly the class of the grid.
The days of folks like Mansell in his near 40's winning world championships is over. Kids are being plucked straight out of F3 at 18-20 years old and they can match the speed of the veterans. Let's see I can pay DC $10 million a year or that new young Fin $1 million and in testing they set the same lap times. No brainer! Sure you can argue that race experience counts for something but let's face it if he hasn't won it now he ain't gonna!
As for Barrichello being quicker, the facts say other wise. Check the stats below from Austria taken from Atlas F1's website. RB was a bit faster in qualifying and practice but MS has the fastest lap of the race and was faster in the last 7-8 laps (omitting the last lap for obvious reasons). He also had a faster average lap time over the entire race.
MS Best Lap Time 1:09.298
Average Lap Time 1:19.318
RB Best Lap Time 1:09.320
Average Lap Time 1:19.320
Maybe RB was better in traffic, maybe he was quicker in the pits, maybe this maybe that but he didn't turn a faster lap than Michael. Maybe this is nit picking and I agree that RB should have won the race but he wasn't faster than MS.
A review of the other races RB won show MS faster in most of those races as well and in some cases nearly a half second.
In Hungary MS's fastest lap time in the race was nearly a half second quicker than RB (1:16:207 vs 1:16:891). Same result at the Euro GP where MS was 1/2 second quicker in the race (1:32.226 vs. 1:32.785). At Monza RB did manage to win the race and set fastest lap time over MS (1:24.242 vs. 1:23.657). However over the entire race MS's average lap time was still quicker. At Indy there average times were exactly the same with RB beating Micheal's fastest lap time by 3/1000's of a second.
Over the entire course of the season RB did not once manage to average faster lap times than MS at any race even the ones at the end of the season where MS was helping RB secure second.
If you listened to MS at this years press conference he stated that the abscence of electronic driver aids this season will really widen the gap between drivers.
Will have to wait until Melbourne to see if RB can match or exceed MS with the new rules.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
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Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member
Username: Tifosi12
Post Number: 463
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 10:21 am: | |
Why should DC start a new tradition like winning races in his older age?
;-)
Rubens and DC are #2 drivers. They might get lucky sometimes, but that's about it. No WC. |
David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member
Username: Darkhorse512
Post Number: 178
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 5:04 am: | |
8 years from now Coulthard will be about 37.
Berger and Hill won races in modern F1 cars on the other side of 35. |
MFZ (Kiyoharu)
New member
Username: Kiyoharu
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 10:00 pm: | |
I don't know about Coulthard, but Sir Jackie Stewart is definitely not an idiot. As for Rubens, no, not all of the races he won last year were 'gifts' from Schumacher. Like Dave said, Rubens was THE man at Austria in both qualifying and the actual race, and yes, it was team orders that cost him his well-deserved win.
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Dave (Maranelloman)
Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 759
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 10:28 am: | |
Not true, Jon. RB won every measure of qualifying & the race in Austria...and was forced to let Michael take the win. And this move, IMO, is directly responsible for the massive changes the FIA has made in F1's rules this season.
No, while I still see Michael as the better racer, I think RB is a lot closer than you think... But can he win the championship? Who knows? |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 436
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 10:11 am: | |
What are these guys smoking today. First DC states he can see himself racing in F1 until 2011 and then Jackie Stewart says Barrichello is going to win the World Championship this season.
Read below, these two idiots will do anything to make news. DC might be racing in 2011, but it won't be in a F1 car.
And as for Reubens being better some races than Schumi, get real! In every race he (RB) won last year Schumacher set fastest laps and handed Reubens the races.
http://www.crash.net/news_detail.asp?championship_id=1&news_id=57831&language_id=1
http://www.crash.net/news_detail.asp?championship_id=1&news_id=57832&language_id=1
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23
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