| Author | Message | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2003 |
>... I feel that that day we lost what, certainly at that time, was the greatest GP driver of all time, the most enigmatic, the most charismatic etc. < Well said Jack. From a relatively selfish standpoint, F1 fans will never know what the Schumie/Senna battles would have amounted to. One thing for sure, Schumie (and don't get me wrong, I am a MS fan) would never get away with chopping Senna off at the start of a race. Do you recall what Ayrton did to Eddie Irvine after one of their first encounters? Can you imagine Shumie getting his arse kicked for cutting across the track? If Senna was still alive we wouldn't have to imagine it. He was truly special. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 222 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff, I didn't dig up all the files again as it is now almost 10 years ago so for me this is just for the sake of the discussion. IF Senna indeed braked for a whole 1.8 seconds, that would also mean that his left hand "dashing down" like shown in the video was not caused by him being unconcious. My gut feel (but really not more than that) still tells me that the steering shaft snapped as I THINK that the car would have behaved differently if it indeed bottomed out + was subjected to significant braking; it would have shown SOME response to the steering wheel input which it doesn't seem to be doing in the images coming from MS's car. Anyhow, whatever the reason was, I feel that that day we lost what, certainly at that time, was the greatest GP driver of all time, the most enigmatic, the most charismatic etc. Jack | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 250 Registered: 12-2002 |
I spoke too soon. Senna was braking in the last 1.8 seconds, according to telemetry, and had slowed from 192 MPH down to 130-136 MPH, before he hit. He should have been able to slow to 105 MPH if the track/runoff area had been perfectly flat. This according to an article in Car & Driver of July 1997. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 249 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jack: In one of your posts below, you say that Senna didn't get a chance to brake before hitting the wall. From what I have read, he was braking HARD, and had significantly reduced his speed, before the impact. From what I recall, he was doing less than 100 MPH at impact. Please correct me if I am wrong. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Junior Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 226 Registered: 2-2003 |
It's only called the San Marino GP in order not offend other countries with Italy letting to host 2 GP's.... Yes, that's also the reason the GP in Nurburgring is called the European GP as opposed to the German GP, since Hockenheim is already hosting the German GP. The irony is that both Imola and Nurburgring had at one time been called the Italian and German GP respectively before. Imola only became the Italian GP for one year though. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 181 Registered: 4-2003 |
It's a tough one... Spa or Imola... To drive it yourself I absolutely got for Spa; as a spectator, it MIGHT be Imola... Jack | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4595 Registered: 12-2000 |
yep, that's why I said that, so much history at Imola, but maybe just a scare tactic to get the track to update. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 179 Registered: 4-2003 |
Rob, there are actually rumours that San Marino might get replaced by.... Spa-Franchorchamps... Jack | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4585 Registered: 12-2000 |
That would be a shame if they don't race at Imola starting next year. izel, I haven't read "Piranha Club" yet, I ordered about 5 books last time we had a talk on here about good racing books to read. I'm not sure if that one was part of my order. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3401 Registered: 9-2001 |
thanks for the confirmation | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2003 |
You're absolutely right Tom. It's only called the San marino GP in order not offend other countries with Italy letting to host 2 GP's.... That's also the reason why the Senna accident was investigated under Italian law. Jack | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3398 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think the Imola is in fact in Italy even though the race is called the San Mariano GP, I think the actual track is outside the tiny princpality on true italian soil. I could be wrong | ||
| izel k. (Ferrarist)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarist Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2001 |
Rob did you read "Piranha Club" by Timothy Collings? I will get it and the one that you read. It also shows the unknown side of F1 for example giving ideas about how ArrowsF1 bankrupt. You can find from the Amazon. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 159 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Jack, fully agree on that with you. Jack | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 729 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jack, I think MS's legend would be magnified, but I question whether it would equal or surpass Senna's. Senna possessed a charm and charisma that drew people to him. If there has ever been a chink in Michael's armor, it's been in the personality department, or at least in the way it's percieved by the public. I actually think that, over time, that would have a great effect on the public's opinion when comparing the two champions. I'm just glad this subject is hypothetical. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 141 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>If MS died right now, would he be legandized the same way? I think yes. I guess that's only human... Jack | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4554 Registered: 12-2000 |
I think even Ferrari people have to respect Senna as one of the all time best, if not the best. Do you think his talents have been legandized at all because of his death. If MS died right now, would he be legandized the same way? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 742 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jon: Good to see you chime in. >>His opening lap at Donnington in the wet where he passed half the field in an inferior car was the stuf of legends. His Monoco qualifying run where he kept choping a full second off every lap was amazing as was the picture on TV of Prost just shaking his head in disbelief.<< 100% true. However, and I'd love to hear it, why do you think Senna was better than MS? I'd like you hear your thoughts. And, in no way, am I saying that antagonistically. Regards, Hubert | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 602 Registered: 8-2001 |
Other interesting facts: Berger nearly quit after Senna and Ratzenberger died. Ratzenberger was an Austrian and though he and Berger were not close friends they had known each other fairly well. Senna was of course best friends with Berger and this really hit Berger hard. Berger had called a press conference a few days later and it was widely speculated that he was going to announce his retirement which he didn't disclaim when asked mid-week. Berger admitted later that he made the decision to stay only hour before the conference. A week later at Monoco Karl Wendlinger in the Sauber had a horrific crash coming out of the tunnel that ended his F1 career. I remember watching that race and being horrified that Wendlinger was dead too. Sid Watkins told Senna not to race in Sunday because Senna kept telling folks he had a bad feeling about racing the next day after Roland was killed. Senna told Watkins that he had to race because that was his job. I am a big Schumacher fan and tifosi since I was a small kid. I never liked Ron Dennis and absolutely hated McLaren but was mesmerized by Senna's talent. I know I will get a lot of flack for saying this on a Ferrari site but I think Senna was better than Schumacher for a number of reasons I won't go into here. Senna never drove for Ferrari but I still think he was the best racer I ever witnessed. His opening lap at Donnington in the wet where he passed half the field in an inferior car was the stuf of legends. His Monoco qualifying run where he kept choping a full second off every lap was amazing as was the picture on TV of Prost just shaking his head in disbelief. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 741 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>In the last second of this footage you can see his hand go all the way to left/down which is right after the car starts to move to the right.<< Jack: nice sleuthing; however, that same piece of footage has also been purported, by the Senna devoute, to be evidence of Senna passing out, as his hands seem to go "limp", and then the head on smash. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 726 Registered: 3-2002 |
Hubert, I more or less side with you in that it was a combination of circumstances. I've always felt what made the most sense was the cold tire theory. Circulating behind the safety car cooled the tires significantly. Ride height, which was sensitive to less than a millimeter, was affected with the loss of tire heat/pressure. On top of that, Senna had been feeling pressured to achieve some results with the early-season success of Schumacher combined with an under-performing Williams. As they returned to green flag, the car sat slightly lower due to the lower tire pressure. Schumacher has commented in the past about noticing Senna's Williams bottoming out more than usual. The bottom line is, Ayrton Senna, unfortunately, died from a racing accident. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 139 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ok, found the one I was looking for... http://www.cineca.it/HPSystems/Vis.I.T/Researches/Senna/movies/zoom_tr.mpg Inbetween the green and red dots, which were put there for analysis purposes, you can see his gloved hand on the steering wheel. In the last second of this footage you can see his hand go all the way to left/down which is right after the car starts to move to the right. To me this indicates that he steered all the way to left yet the car moved to the right. COULD confirm the snapped steering shaft. Jack | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2003 |
Here is a link that shows a multi screen video tape (very short though). http://www.cineca.it/HPSystems/Vis.I.T/Researches/Senna/movies/out5.mpg Jack | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 137 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Hubert, I don't know any better than that the steering shaft was shortened and re-welded. There was a website (forgot the URL but might find it again) that showed some of the analyses of the accident based on the on-board camera images (both from Senna's car as well as from MS's Benetton which was right behind Senna). Both pieces of footage show Senna's car swerve off to the right without apparent reason and ramming the wall. The onboard also showed how Senna all of a sudden steered MUCH more to the left than is normally needed for Tamburello yet the car swerved to the right. I am not enough (not at all!) of an accident analyst to judge on this but the the idea has formed in my head that the steering shaft indeed snapped which would explain everything that is visible (the excess steering without the car responding etc.). This would also be confirmed by the footage that I have here as about 2/3 of the steering shaft is still attached to the steering wheel when it is visible next to the car. It doesn't look like the car bottomed and I THINK Senna would have caught it again if it would have. Cold tires? Mmm... maybe but then the car would slide more, again giving opportunity to "catch" it. The swerving of the car is so abrupt that it should be something that Senna was completely unprepared for which would also explain the data from telemetry as even a master like Senna wasn't prepared for THAT to happen and at some 280 KM/H (or so) and being unprepared, he probably never even had a chance to hit the brakes (would it have much effect if he WOULD have hit the brakes? I don't think so). Anyhow, it is just my 0.02 Lire as even the real experts still haven't reach a REAL conclusion on it. Jack | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 740 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>Williams had shortened the steering shaft during the saturday night<< Jack: Not the case. Williams tapered the steering column shaft to give Senna more "leg room" in the cockpit, per his directions. Re: Senna's Death. There was a discovery channel show about the incident some years back, but, by account of most informed and experienced F1 fans, was a pile of crap. there are, to date, 3 (or 4, by some accounts) probable reasons for the off that resulted in Senna's death; 1. broken steering column; 2. too low a ride height (probable, b/c the chassis' Senna was running was meant to be an active sus. car, banned that year, so the engineers may have broken the rules and 'dumped' it past regulation limits) leading to the car bottoming out, and hence losing traction all together, and 3. the race was under yellow before Senna's death (barichello's off caused that, i think, don't remember all that clearly), causing his tires to cool, a lot, and hence causing his, total, loss of traction (schumacher intimated a similar sentiment during the post race press conference), and, lastly; 4. passing out by Senna (he'd been known to have special breathing techniques during the race?) I don't know which is the right answer, nor would I opt to suggest it. Having a piece of the suspension arm pentrate his skull was the official cause of death, but, the autopsy reports, to my knowledge, were never made public, hence any intimations regarding Senna's condition prior to his fatal injury, in my eyes, is baseless specualtion; unless you've got a copy of the autopsy report. I, frankly, believe it's a combination of the first three factors; weather or not the column broke, the car bottomed, and the tires we're too cool to have any traction are all possible. Fact is, by accounts of telemetry, Senna 'flew' into that wall; no decel, no input, period. regards, jaded observer Rob: Yes, San Marino. I apologize for the misnomer, and thank you for the heads up on the book. Will pick it up tonight. | ||
| Aaron Williams (Aawil)
Junior Member Username: Aawil Post Number: 138 Registered: 8-2002 |
Tom, Is that the Barrichello wreck where the car took flight like a airplane and went straight into the tire barrier? Steve Matchett is a huge asset to SPEED.Nice to see a more inside perspective. I might have to pick that up Rob. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 132 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have the tape that was shot from a chopper right after the Senna accident occured and which was never allowed to be aired (don't ask me how I got the copy!). It is pretty horrifying to see a man die that way (he was still alive when the marshals got to the car) and some VERY weird things happened during the time that the car and Senna were still at the place of the accident. In one of the first shots the steering wheel with part of the steering shaft still attached to it were already next to the car and couple of shots later, these parts had miraculously disappeared... Williams had shortened the steering shaft during the saturday night (at directions of Senna) and apparently the weld snapped during the race and consequently the broken steering shaft is blamed as the cause of the accident and yet it was of the first parts to "disappear" from the scene... Anyway, Senna was driving a Williams and Williams almost got sued to oblivion while Ratzenberger was driving a Simtek and "only" a rookie (San Marino would have been only his third GP ever) and as far as I know, no serious charges were ever pressed against Simtek. I guess it all has to do with the "GOD vs. Rookie" syndrome. Jack | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4548 Registered: 12-2000 |
but Imola isn't in Italy.  I know I know. I'm sure it's 100% under Italian law. Anyway, also interesting that the FIA mandated rules changes that actually took about 30% downforce off the cars for the next race, so in a way made them less safe. There was a serious wreck at Spain too. After Spain though I think they reversed some of those changes. I can't wait to continue with the book. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 739 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>Ratzenberger died on Saturday, Senna on Sunday.<< This single fact makes me furious with the Italian Committe handling the "investigation" of the Senna death (see recent re-re-opening of the Senna case; Italy v. Williams) b/c accroding to their own "laws" that race at Imola in '94 should NOT have gone forward, at all! A death in Qualifying should have lead to a halt to the ENTIRE event; had they been as arduous in adhereing to their own rule, Senna might still be alive today. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Junior Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ratzenberger died on Saturday, Senna on Sunday. Ratzenberger's death was completely overshadowed by Senna's which is understandable but not fair... Jack | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3381 Registered: 9-2001 |
ratzenberger died in qualifying or practice if I remember correctly | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1238 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ratzenberger also died at Imola. And, Barrichello got severely injured. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4542 Registered: 12-2000 |
I started reading the book Monday night and it's great. I love the behind the scenes view. I've only read about the first third, but here's what I've found interesting so far... 1) Imola there was another driver that died too, not just Senna. I never knew that, there were also at least two other accidents that injured several people that weekend. 2) Michael Schumacher got 2nd place in Spain after driving more than the last half of the race in 5th gear! He had to pit twice and he never stalled it, even pulling out in 5th gear. Most F1 racers still stall it in 1st gear. He adjusted his line throughout the race and dropped his time almost every lap as he adapted to only having 5th gear. 3) Those mechanics know how to party! |