| Author | Message | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 444 Registered: 11-2002 |
The Sauber front suspension design was to clean up the space behind the middle of the front wing. This meant that they had nice clean air going to the underneath of the car. How did they do this? They did this by moving the lower wishbone mounting points apart to supports that lined up exactly with the front wing supports. Thus they had a nice hole in the middle for the air to travel. McLaren took this ideal even further for their 2002 chassis ... and I believe this is what stuffed their car up. Why not all teams (including Ferrari) have jumped on to this idea? Because it is not as structurally as sound, and thus the possibility of the lower wishbone mounting positions moving would cause inconsistent handling ... which is what I believe happened to the 2002 McLaren chassis. If you look at a Ferrari, the lower wishbone points come to a nice and strong central mounting point ... thus no flex and Ferrari believe that this is more important than any possible aerodynamic gain. Others that have tried this are Jordon (cars are too hopeless to know whether it was a success or not), Arrows (very nice go at it, and car was ocassionally fast) and McLaren (failure). Not sure who is still continuing with this idea ... I guess McLaren since they are still racing their 2002 modified chassis. As for the high nose. I personally think this is simply about having MORE wing surface and also controlling more air to under the car, i.e. on top of the front floor extension. The low nose did not allow this. BTW Ferrari was not the first with this ... infact they were one of the teams that stuck with the low nose the longest ... bit like sticking with drum brakes and v12 engines! Benetton was the first and I guess this was a Brawn brain child. Ferrari even designed their new car with a low nose (when MS started with them) and then embarrassingly changed to a high nose, half way through the season, that looked like a after thought ... it did not fit or work as well as it should. Lets not get too excited about Ferrari inventing things ... er, not the most advanced racing team ever invented. Definitely the gear selection toggles at the steering wheel is theirs (but due to Barnard getting pissed with trying to make gear linkages work, as he designed the chassis and Ferrari the engine/gearbox and they sort of met in the middle with the gear linkage coming last ... thus Barnard was not even thinking about the performance advantage  ). The high exit exhaust is another ... but that is probably it in their 50+ year racing history. Oops and the brake cooling thingy that they use now that McLaren consider a moving aerodynamic aid ... because they did not think of it (and still don't use it because they think it is morally wrong ... idiots!). Moveable aerodynamic aids should be allowed back in as we have learnt so much more about this subject and thus SHOULD be able to design it correctly and safely. This ban was required due to stupidity of 60's designers not understanding the force and stresses involved ... Pete | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 486 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>Assuming it would be too competitive Correct. It was so radical, revolutionary and far ahead of the competition that the other teams complained to the FIA to find "something" to ban it... which they did.... Jack H. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 819 Registered: 3-2002 |
I don't remember the specifics, but I kind of recall it being one of those "fear of the unknown" deals. Assuming it would be too competitive, they were able to get it ruled as a violation of the moveable wing rule. I think. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 966 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rob, you're right of course. With the same rule years later the 'vacuum cleaner' Brabham from Lauda got banned. Does anybody know, whether it was this rule that also killed the double chassis Lotus (I believe De Angelis, not sure though) or was that because of something else? I can't remember. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 565 Registered: 11-2002 |
Chaparral and Jim Hall. I believe it was the 2E in 1966 with the movable rear wing and mounts directly on the suspension uprights that prompted the ban both on aero acting directly on the uprights/wheels (must act through the suspension) and ban on movable aero devices which is the rule worldwide. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 811 Registered: 3-2002 |
The primary function of the barge boards is to clean up the air for the radiators and sidepods. After passing through the front wing and suspension arms, it's a little turbulent. These straighten it out for better efficiency. | ||
| Ken A (Zff)
Junior Member Username: Zff Post Number: 57 Registered: 12-2002 |
Oops! I have a typo on my post: >>>>> So barge boards create an even amount of "downforce" toward the centerline of the car in a straight, but for example, in a right turn the right barge board creates more "downforce" than the left because it's being presented with a more direct stream of air? I meant to say: So barge boards create an even amount of "downforce" toward the centerline of the car in a straight, but for example, in a right turn the LEFT barge board creates more "downforce" than the RIGHT because it's being presented with a more direct stream of air? Got my lefts and rights mixed up. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3588 Registered: 9-2001 |
they need the wing to hold it down at high speeds - some of the orginal audi tts had a problem at high speeds and thus they added a wing/spoiler to hold it down | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 953 Registered: 10-2002 |
Anthony, I'm not a P expert, but I think a P like any car creates more lift as it gets faster and tends to become less stable on the ground. That's why they pop out the wing, to get that rear end firmly back on the ground. ...if that's not the reason, then it was because Marketing thought it'd make a nice selling point | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 256 Registered: 11-2002 |
The reason why flexing wings were banned is because of the safety issue. You get a benefit from having the wing flex at speed as this reduces the drag. Then, when you slow for a corner the wing springs back up and creates drag and downforce. These type of wings were banned almost as soon as they were introduced because teams would obviously be tempted to make their wings more and more flexible which could lead to wings failing. Losing a rear wing at speed causes a crash that the driver has absolutely no control over. Now in scrutineering the FIA put weights on the wings and measure the flex. If the wing moves too much the car fails scrutineering. On a similar theme I often wondered why some Porsches hava a wing that pops up when you go above a certain speed. If I had a Boxster and drove it 100 miles I'd be pretty unhappy about the fact that I'd wasted some fuel dragging a stupid wing through the air. Won't the wing also reduce your top speed? Surely you only need the downforce when you go through corners? | ||
| Ken A (Zff)
Junior Member Username: Zff Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2002 |
I'm more confused than ever. So barge boards create an even amount of "downforce" toward the centerline of the car in a straight, but for example, in a right turn the right barge board creates more "downforce" than the left because it's being presented with a more direct stream of air? I can see how that helps turn-in, but how does that differ from the barge board not being there at all and that stream of air just hitting the side of the car? Also, that seems like an awful lot of drag going down a straight. The cars have barge boards even at tracks like Monza. Wouldn't a fin at the front of the car serve that purpose better? You get virtually no straight-line drag but you get that help on turn-in. Obviously, I'm missing something pretty fundamental here. What Andreas said about keeping the airflow around the sidepods clean makes sense, especially when you consider how much turbulent air must be coming off those front tires. Still, I don't see how that helps turn-in. If anything, I'd guess the barge boards are there to make the aero bits near the rear tire work better.. but again, I don't see how that helps turn-in. >>>> Hence the venturis under the car (accelerating air creating low pressure under the car) and the shape of the upper body. The winglet do not really generate downforce but are used to guide and direct air as it comes toward the rear end of the car. Which winglets are you referring to? I was talking about the ones that are attached to stalks that come out of the top of the sidepods just behind the driver's head. >>>> Ferrari invented the high and wide nose. I just watched the replay of the '93 Kyalami GP, and it looked like the Benettons were the only cars with those high noses. >>>> Tires are the second biggest drag creators... Makes perfect sense. I guess the teams are stuck with one width of tire... or else the Monza tire would be skinner than the Monte Carlo tire. >>>> By bringing the front suspension together at a single mounting point... Actually, I believe the Sauber front end did the opposite. It took the lower wishbone's front mount point from the center of the car to a point closer to the tire. Perhaps the fact that the design hasn't been incorporated in all the cars this year means your point of economizing space up front was more important than whatever advantage Sauber was trying to eek out. I looked throught that technical F1 site a bit, but found nothing really helpful.. but this is the problem I've always had. Although everyone says aerodymanics are the most cutting-edge thing about F1 or the thing that teams spend the most R&D on, there's suprisingly little info on it out there. I guess they're also the most closely guarded secrets, too. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 946 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jack you're right, it was Ferrari who came up with the flexing wing. Illegal as all aerodynamic surfaces have to be solid. Popquiz: Why do we have that regulation? | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 775 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ken, it is beneficial to have the air that flows under the car to be as "clean" as possible. Thus the front end designs we see today. By bringing the front suspension together at a single mounting point (going on fuzzy memory here), Sauber was able to economize on space up front. As with all aerodynamic things, this resulted in a chain of benefits. With the front wings (like the under-body wings of the ground effects era), the closer they run to the ground, the more efficiently they work. Not so long ago, one of the teams (I think Ferrari) was discovered to be working with a flexing front wing, which is a no-no. I don't know the scientific reasoning, but as you near the track surface, you gain aerodynamic efficiency without a gain in drag. That is why ride height is so sensitive as well. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2002 |
Don't know too much about these things (if I would I should be working for a racing team), but here a few remarks: - The winglets in front of the rear tires as well as at the end of the front wing are there to direct the air smoothly over the tires. Tires are the second biggest drag creators (after the wings, where it is intended) and ideally should be covered, but then it wouldn't be F1 anymore, but Le Mans. Anyway, so you want to get them out of the airflow and lessen the drag. - Didn't know, that barge boards create downforce. Always thought their purpose was to direct the airflow clean around the car as well. Might be wrong on that though. - Ferrari invented the high and wide nose. When the FIA limited the size of the front wing, Ferraris engineers realized, that a high and wide nose can act like a wing and bring back some of that downforce. Before that there was a toss between the people who believed in high vs low noses and Ferrari had both in the same season. Only when they made the nose wider, they got the added downforce. Ever since it stayed high and wide. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 450 Registered: 4-2003 |
OK, I just found this new thread after I finished a post on the "original" thread... Laminar vs. turbulent: It is not one single device that takes care of that. It is basically all aerodynamic elements that have to work in harmony, from the large wings to the smallest Gurney strip etc. That is why it is so important for a F1 team to have their own windtunnels so they can do a LOT of testing. Basic idea is that air behaves differently at different speeds and pressures. "Laminar air" is stable and thus able to "create" high pressure which you want on top of your car (creating down force) at low speeds (i.e. in turns when you need grip). Turbulent air in unstable and "snaps" away from the cars surface dus creating small pockets of low pressure making the car lighter and thus faster in straight line. Barge boards: To keep it as simple as possible: What front and rear wings do in a horizontal plane, the barge board does it in a vertical plane. When the car turns in, air hits the board from another angle thus creating pressure, thus creating "down" force. Hope that what I just wrote is somewhat understandable... Little winglets: Today it is not so much an issue anymore to make a car easily penetrate the air it is encountering at speed as well as what happens with the air when it is over / under the car and behind the car. Hence the venturis under the car (accelerating air creating low pressure under the car) and the shape of the upper body. The winglet do not really generate downforce but are used to guide and direct air as it comes toward the rear end of the car. Front wings: Biggest issue with an F1 car is "moving parts" such as wheels and tires. The front tires create a massive amount of unstable air (turbulence). Most of the wing end plates, Gurneys etc on the front wing are there to guide the air as smoothly around the front tires as possble. Less of an issue in fendered cars of course but in open wheelers it is a BIG issue hence the more complicated wings on open wheelers. High nose: Basis issue is guiding the air that passes under / over the car and regulating that flow. Closely linked to the front wing and its configuration of course. Side pods: Most of it exits at the rear near the exhausts but there usually is a complicated "channel system" to take advantage of it (it IS hot air with is light and fast so you can use it to accellerate cold air away from areas where you don't want it). Hope this helps a bit (none of the above is "absolute" of course as development is constant and everything plays in sync with other elements). Jack | ||
| izel k. (Ferrarist)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarist Post Number: 224 Registered: 3-2001 |
Ken if i'm not mistaken the bargeboards are flexible and gets flat, losing its curvy shape at high speeds by the effect of wind. That helps to lower the drag at straights. And as you know they are curvy in normal speeds, helping the stabilization of the car. I also wonder about the left-right ends of the front wing so if you find some good info about it i'd like to hear. Probably it directs the air to upside of front tires and provides more downforce for the front of the car as the speed increases. It seems sidepods are helping to the engine ventilation. Sauber style front suspension, i'm reading an article in a magazine about it and i will tell you as soon as i finish and understand the details. If you're interested in technical issues of F1 check www.technicalf1.com i found it 5mins. ago Hope you like it. BTW i'm not a pro so my answers may not be true. | ||
| Ken A (Zff)
Junior Member Username: Zff Post Number: 53 Registered: 12-2002 |
I hope no one minds, I'm starting a new thread off the aero conversation going on in "Indy, Cart, F1" I'm really curious about the aerodynamics on a modern F1 car, but I can't find enough info about it online to satisfy my curiosity. I thought I would ask here. I've read that some of the aero devices are designed such that airflow is laminar at low speed but tubulent at high speed and the net effect is that above a certain threshold speed, it creates considerably less downforce and slightly less drag. Obviously, the advantage is less drag down a straight. Has anyone else heard of this? If so, can you tell me what device(s) behave this way and how it works? I've read that barge boards or turning vanes help make turn-in crisper. Why? How? Exactly what function do the little winglets on top of the sidepods in front of the rear wheels on some of the cars do? Are they just another set of wings or is there a more interesting purpose behind them? ("shaping" the airflow around the rear tire or some some such thing?) Looking at the front wing, the aero guys have obviously paid very close attention to how air travels around the left and right ends of the wing. What are they trying to accomplish there? What was the big advantage of the Sauber-style front suspension mounts last year? How many cars are using it this year? What was the advantage of lifting the nose up off the ground but leaving the front wing there? Exactly where does all the air going into the sidepods exit? What advantage do you think the shape of the front-bottom of the GA's sidepods provide? Yeah, I know, I ask a lot of questions. Hopefully, someone will be kind enough to answer them. Thanks |