| Author | Message | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 575 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Gerald, glad to see you having joined the "oh those mystery F cars!' club here at F-chat! ;-) Gerald, Wayne, Jeff and all the others, One thing that I just noticed, triggered by what was said on Atlas is the "angle" of the firewall or rear end of the bonnet if you want. In the original picture that I posted, the Ascari car has a more or less vertical rear bonnet line, visible just ahead of the open airscoop on the side. The Ascari Indy car also has a vertical bonnet line although the picture shows the left side of the car of course. However... the picture that Jeff posted of Villoresi at Boreham, clearly shows an angle... also photographed from the left. The photo that Gerald posted of Villoresi at Silverstone shows a vertical line again... but then the "font" of the "1" doesn't match although, as mentioned, that could have been changed between practice and race. I will try to enlarge the numbers but to be honest, I am not entirely sure that the "5" is EXACTLY the same either. It LOOKS as if the semi-circle of the 5 on Villoresi's car is more "open" than on the Ascari car in my picture. Could be optically disformed though. Also still to be resolved is, IF it is Silverstone, WHERE on Silverstone this should be as nobody remembers such a vast empty space near the track. (If I write something in CAPS, I'm not shouting, just emphesizing the word...). ;-) Best, Jack | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1657 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald, this topic kind of spilled over onto the AtlasF1 Nostalgia site where the difference in the number "1" has also been discussed. It's been suggested that the "1" could have been changed between practice and the actual race. For details, see: http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56779 | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2003 |
OOPS! The mystery remains. On closer examination there are obvious differences in the Ascari-driven car and the Villoresi-driven car, specifically the style of the "1". Still think it is the same car but probably not the same weekend! | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
New member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wayne asked me "As long as you�re here, what do you think of this thread? http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/14/246032.html?1053000957" Don't know what part he wanted a comment on but the car that started the thread is Villoresi's at the 19 July 1952 Silverstone "Formule Libre" (see photo attached). As already suggested probably being driven by Ascari in practice. Caption says "Villoresi looks anything but comfortable in the 'Indianapolis' 4-1/2-litre Ferrari . . . "  | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 450 Registered: 11-2002 |
Okay I've done a little bit more research and the car I stood next to was a 1951 375 # 002 http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/Formula/002.375.GP.52.htm That did not win the first GP for Ferrari ... which was in 1951 NOT 1949 as I previously guessed. Barchetta also states that a NZ'er rebodied the car to LOOK like the Indy 375's so that explains the grill and bonnet scope! Pete ps: Thus I guess I would restore it to the egg grate grill myself, or though being a NZer that car would have special memories to many old racing fans as driven by Ron Roycroft. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 540 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Jeff, This is the barchetta link where the pre 1959 Formula cars are listed: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/summary/Ferraris.Overview.Formula.xx.59.htm The "indianapolis" cars, the FL and the Thin Wall Special are mentioned there. I must add that barchetta is not persee correct and complete. Funny thing is that at Atlas, somebody spontenously came up with "looks like Boreham". Doug Nye's comment was that he thought it might be Ascari taking a spin in Villoresi's car but then it must have been at Silverstone as Ascari was probably not present at Boreham and at Silverstone Villoresi drove the car with race # 15 in the FL race. Also the "date" on the back of the ohot "19752" would confirm that. Against it speaks that nobody can picture where the photo would have been taken at Silverstone... Jack | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 280 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jack: If we get down to trying to pin a chassis number on this particular car, I think we can agree that it is NOT 01, 02, 03, or 04, which all were Indianapolis cars. It does not make sense that Ferrari would then jump to 010 (the Thinwall). The caption on the picture I posted says the car at Boreham was "one of the 375 Formula Libre cars retained by the factory" (this is from Thompson's "Ferrari Formula 1 Cars"). I don't think 01 was retained by the factory, from what I have seen here. So - was there an 06 and an 08, not listed in Barchetta? Betcha there was, but I don't have access to that information. Let's see more of your great old pictures! | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 538 Registered: 4-2003 |
YES, Still watching, reading & absorbing! Still not solved completely... F. built only 4 375 Indianapolis's of which only one remained in SF's "custody", the Ascari car. They also built 4 "normal" 375's but these were sold before in 1952 to privateers (I mentioned the details in the Atlas thread). Also at Atlas are they still not sure where the picture was taking as nobody can match the background to a spot on Silverstone... Jack | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 279 Registered: 12-2002 |
Pete: Your note rings a bell, I have a magazine article somewhere about the cars you describe, I'll have to look for it tomorrow. It seems unlikely that the pictured car goes back as early as 1949 (?), but I haven't seen the experts pin a chassis number on it yet. I'm certainly not an expert, I just like to dig through old books and magazines! | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 278 Registered: 12-2002 |
Ascari's car at Indianapolis 1952 with the big air scoop in place, as used in the race.  | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 448 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have stood next to a Ferrari with a air scoop and front grill exactly like the picture Jack posted at the beginning of this topic and also Jeff's picture ... the 375. The car in question is attributed to be the one that won the first GP for Ferrari in 1949 (?) by Gonzales. This car ended up in New Zealand ... as they do somehow ... and for a while lived with a humble Morris Minor body on it so that the owner could race in a saloon car series!. Apparently it was road registered as a farm tractor ... Luckily the body was saved ... but the engine was sold to a power boat racer in Australia, and when the restoration was started (by Auto Restorations in Christchurch NZ) they had some trouble buying the engine back as amazingly it was still being thrashed in this power boat. Eventually after a few years, I believe, they were able to purchase the engine and complete the restoration. Very interesting car and wonderfull restoration and the then owner did really drive the car in classic meetings ... I mean give it some stick, etc. Unfortunately it was sold to some collector who now has the only 2 375's left in existance ... again I believe. One has the egg grate grill the other this open grill. I hope he has not restored it to the egg grate grill ... but his call. Anyway obviously along the line these cars had different grills???, as when Gonzales won that Silverstone GP the car had the egg grate grill, and yet it did not when I saw it. It was French blue when I saw it. Pete | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 276 Registered: 12-2002 |
If anyone is still looking at this, here is a picture of Villoresi's car at Boreham, with the caption: "One of the 375 Formula Libre cars retained by the factory - not Ascari's Indianapolis mount as the angled firewall distinguishes the example shown here - was raced in several minor events in 1952." But if you look at Jack's picture, it doesn't appear to have an angled firewall on the right side, if we are judging by the rear line of the bonnet behind the louvers. The car I have pictured here MUST be the same car as shown in Jack's picture. And it looks almost identical to Ascari's car at Indy (not in Wayne's picture, but in others), but apparently it definately isn't the Indy car.  | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 275 Registered: 12-2002 |
Wayne: Just getting a look at this interesting thread. What is the reason that the car in Jack's picture is definately NOT Ascari's Indianapolis car from 1952? Am I missing something? | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 469 Registered: 4-2003 |
This thread is being continued here: http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56779 Jack | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 468 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well, I looked up the "normal" 375's... Only 4 were made: S/N 002 - Raced by Ascari twice in 1951 in Italy but sold to Rosier in 1951 and apparently not raced by Ascari again after that. S/N 005 - Raced by Ascari three times in 1951 but sold to Chico Landi (Brazil) in 1951. S/N 010 - Thin Wall Special S/N 0566 - Acquired by Chico Landi (Brazil) in 1952, apart with no known prior race history. Mmmmm..... Would it be the Thin Wall Special in an earlier guise? Would make sense as the Thin Wall Special belonged to Tony Vandervell in the UK which would make it reasonable that the car was entered in races in the UK. Still leaves the question, what is Ascari doing in it and where and when? Jack | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 467 Registered: 4-2003 |
Wayne, I was writing the post below while you posted yours. Would you have a scan of the photo in Motorsport? Jack | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1631 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jack, you're barking up the wrong tree. Forget about the Indianapolis car. They are completely different. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 466 Registered: 4-2003 |
Getting weirder and weirder.... Tried to look up pictures of the other 3 375 Indianapolis's... Hard... This is S/N 02:  Quite a different nose... "chrome" grill surround, less sloping and off course different airintake. Now, I know that the other 3 cars (only 4 were built) went to Americans and were entered as XXX Specials etc and none of those three even qualified for Indy. Therefore, other carbs were mounted on Ascari's factory entry and the airintake was modified for that. But... I don't know any better than that was done in the USA (on track I believe) after they found out that the car was way too slow... So how come that in this picture, the airintake is VERY different from S/N 02? This is a picture of a scale model in the guise in which Ascari raced it at Indy:  Does it come close? Nah... Digging a little deeper... All three other 375's remained in the USA for a long time so it WOULD be safe to assume that only S/N 01 "travelled" a bit (it was actually entered in the Indy 500 three years in a row) but I found no other race history on it. HOWEVER, August 2, 1952... Boreham Airfield, Essex, UK... Formula Libre race.. won by Luigi Villoresi in a factory entered... 375 Indianapolis... Right... Same car? Quite sure that this picture is NOT taken at that race: Ascari at the wheels and # 15... Race at Boreham was Villoresi and # 17.... To be continued... Jack | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1630 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jack, see the photo in my post below. THAT is the car Ascari took to Indianapolis, not this Formula Libre. The car in the Motor Sport photo is definitely the same car as in your photo, but the photos were most likely not taken at the same event as the number "1" seems to have been painted in a completly different style. What we now know: The car is a 375 Formula Libre (which we had suspected) and is being driven by Ascari (which we also suspected) and was taken circa 1952 (gee, we're actually not bad at this, are we?). What we don't know: When and where was it taken? | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 465 Registered: 4-2003 |
Update from Atlas, but still not solved (I seem to have picked a nice one again!): >>>There was a formule libre race at the 1952 British GP meeting, and the Ferrari factory did enter a 375. However, it was driven by Villoresi, and that's certainly Ascari in your picture. So, either Ascari drove the car in practice, or it's a different meeting<<< >>>Hm, the windscreen is early '51, the headrest late '51, and the engine intake and nose '52... <<< >>>The same car is pictured on page 378 of Motor Sport, August 1952. As David says, it's in the FL race supporting the British GP. It is described as "the car which Ascari took to Indianapolis".<<< So, I started looking for "the car which Ascari took to Indianapolis"... barchetta.cc, Ferrari 375 Indianapolis, S/N 01... http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/Formula/01.375.Indy.51.htm Yeah... right... that COULD be the car... (although no pictures of it at barchetta) but why was it in the UK? Barchetta doesn't mention the car ever being in the UK and if it was driven by Ascari, it would be a well know fact and certainly mentioned I gather... So, a little bit closer but still not there... Jack | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 462 Registered: 4-2003 |
Wayne, I am faced with exactly the same dilemma... Will give Atlas a try later on. Jack | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1628 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jack, I've gone through all the same conclusions. A search for Ascari with race number 15 for 1951-52 always comes up with the Silverstone result where he was driving a 500 F2, obviously not what we have here. I also thought that the car was a 375 FL, but couldn't find a decent image of one on the Web for comparison and couldn't find any examples of Ascari driving a 375 FL with race number 15. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 461 Registered: 4-2003 |
OK, I found some more clues and confirmations and confusions... It IS Alberto Ascari It IS a Ferrari It IS Silverstone, UK It IS July 19, 1952 (the day of the British GP) BUT BUT BUT.... Ascari drove a 500 during the GP of Britain, even with race # 15... This is NOT a 500... This SHOULD be a 375 Formula Libre... BUT BUT BUT... I can not find any record of Ascari driving a 375 in a Formula Libre race at Silverstone on July 19, 1952 with race # 15.... Jack | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1627 Registered: 8-2002 |
We're nothing. Try posting that pic here: http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10 Those guys'll have it figured out in about 10 minutes! (BTW, Doug Nye is one of the guys who posts there.) | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 773 Registered: 3-2002 |
Whew! You guys are outta my league... | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 940 Registered: 10-2002 |
No Wayne, that's not what I meant. I know, that the car run at Indy looked different. This might be from the Valentino GP. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1626 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jack, thanks. This is a good one. Too bad I'm stuck at work without any research tools at hand! If no one else gets it, I'll work on it tonight. Andreas, it's not Ascari at Indy in 1952, if that's what you mean. In fact, it's not even the same car. Here's a quick shot of him in the SF entry (chassis #01):  I know this picture doesn't show it very well, but the top of the air scoop is actually cut out. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 459 Registered: 4-2003 |
So far so good Andreas! Now the rest still to go... Jack | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 939 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just a shot in the blue: 1952, 375 Indy car, Ascari ??? | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 457 Registered: 4-2003 |
Wayne wanted more mystery cars? Wayne shall HAVE more mystery cars! Hahahaha! Name: The car, type & S/N The driver The date, event & location It is a vintage snapshot that has not been published as far as I know. I have some clues but am not entirely sure. I have cropped the image to bring out more detail on the car. There are NO clues on the part of the image that is NOT shown. Jack  |