| Author | Message | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 463 Registered: 4-2003 |
If you can, go to a bike race with Art. You will learn a lot!! thanks Art. Vincent. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1833 Registered: 6-2001 |
PSK: The method that I used on the starts was that I would watch the previous races. I'd time the starter from when the 1 sign turned sideways to when he or she would drop the flag. I'd average that time out (you'd be amazed at how consistent they were), and I'd plan on leaving exactly when the flag would drop. That meant that I'd leave about 1 second before anyone else. No enough time for the starter to react, and I'd be moving eactly when everyone else was reacting to the flag being dropped. At a place like Sears point where the 1st corner was about 1/4 mile away, that 1 second usually meant about 100', and there were times when I had to start from the 3rd or 4th row, and ended up in the lead by turn 2 at Sears. Art | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 473 Registered: 11-2002 |
Way to go. Definitely a good start is so very important. At my humble level of car racing I also always prided myself in quick starts, as it is the best time for easy pickings. Maybe if the book is wrong, you should contact the publisher. Reading what you have stated sounds like it would add more to the book, and not necessarily contradict that Cosworth were involved back then. Reference books only get better with this first hand type of information  Pete | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1821 Registered: 6-2001 |
PKS: All well and good. I was fortunate enough to be there when these things happened, so I've got a bit of an insight into some of these things. A friend of mine has a great picture taken in 1988, of the front row of the AMA BOTT National at Sears Point. It was taken about 1 second after the flag dropped: Pole was Church on the Harley, next to him was Jimmy Adamo (now deceased), then me (on the Harris Ducati), then Dr. Keiffer (who has the pic). I'm on the bike, feet on the pegs, head under the bubble. The rest of them, are just getting their feet off the ground, and starting to go. I'd always leave a little early, but not early enough to get caught, and that picture sure caught me good. Art | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 470 Registered: 11-2002 |
Art, I'm just quoting a reference book ... Pete | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1806 Registered: 6-2001 |
PSK: The original 851 was a bored and stroked Panta engine. Lucinnelli won Daytona on it in 86. I have a duplicate of that engine in the Harris Ducati that I have, an 851 two valve with welded up intake ports, raising the intake port approximately 1 1/2 inches, same with the exhaust. The next year Ducati came back with a 4 valve version of that engine, and originally it made about 10 more HP (a 2 vavle 851 was second that year at Daytona, I think, I got 15th or so) The main competitors were Lucifer's Hammer (harley works entry), the Moto Guzzi, and BMW. Art The following | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 468 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oops, Did a double check and I have got my times muddled up. Anyway Cosworth did help Ducati with their first (?) 4 valve engine:
But I guess that was a long time ago, so they could have formed a new partnership with Ferrari ... Pete | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 467 Registered: 11-2002 |
MFZ,
Cosworth did actually help Ducati with their road Testastretta (V-Twin) engine. It is all over their www.ducati.com site. I did not say they helped with the Desmosedici (MotoGP engine) BTW. What I find interesting is that they would get Cosworths help for one engine and not continue the successful business relationship with the other engine (Desmosedici) and supposably go to Ferrari (which I have never, ever read anywhere???, but it could be true , but I have my doubts). I have also read that Ferrari helped MS Agusta with their road bike engine ... Cosworth where consulted when they went to the Testastretta engine as they narrowed the valves to make a more modern, compact and flatter combustion chamber. As Ducati wanted to stick with the desmo valve operation they had to compromise with Cosworths intention, but as we can see this new combustion chamber is quite a lot more affective as the Testastretta engines have much better hp and torque figures than the older V-Twin. Pete ps: Aprilia's 60 degree v-twin is a Rotex engine ... | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 283 Registered: 2-2003 |
Interesting that Ducati do not mention that anywhere but do mention that they had Cosworth help with the new Testaressa engine ... why not Ferrari help with that one? I do not know I did some rechecking, and it's aprilia that had Cosworth help in their MotoGP engine, not Ducati. Back when two-stroke engines were in the class, aprilia had help from Rotax. Also, the Ducati superbike engine is the Testa Stretta (a V-Twin). The MotoGP engine is the Desmosedici (a V-4). Both are pretty hot motors too. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1640 Registered: 6-2001 |
MFZ: I remember Surtees. He was and still is my hero. I think that Gotto was Yamaha, not Honda, but I'm not sure. Between Yamaha and Honda, if you look at the last 15 years in the SAE papers on 4 strokes, you'll see that most of them were written by their employees. The Japanese, though the motorcycle industry, developed the 4 stroke engine to new levels. Having said that, they built their knowledge on the Brit's F1 engines, at least initially. There are several US riders coming up now that should dominate MotoGP is they can get rides in the next 5 years. The Bostrums come to mind (I don't represent them, but I did race against their uncle, who was pretty good in his own right). It's about time the US took its rightful place in MotoGP, instead of letting the Italians win the races. Art | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 595 Registered: 4-2003 |
I would like to see "the race of champions" on Gran Canaria back again. Probably was the most exiting racing I have ever seen. Anybody else here who remembers that? Jack | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 280 Registered: 2-2003 |
Lets remember that Honda F1 engines made Ferrari look very ordinary as did the Renault one ... and that the Ferrari engine designer was bought in from Japan for the v10 ... probably an Ex-Honda guy?? The Japanese designer who used to work on the Ferrari V-10 was Osamu Goto. He's now with Sauber and was the person who headed the development of the Foggy Petronas Superbike engine. The original plan was to race it in MotoGP, but since there were no takers, Petronas went to multiple-time Superbike champion and a former Petronas-sponsored rider, Carl Fogarty and asked him if he was interested to head a team. He only agreed if they modified it to Superbike specs so he could compete in that championship. The rest is history. | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 279 Registered: 2-2003 |
Oh yeah, almost forgot that Hopper's girlfriend, Desiree has a sort of an online weblog here: http://www.cyclenews.com/desiree/03desiree01.asp Pretty decent stuff (about living on the road in Europe during the race season). | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 278 Registered: 2-2003 |
Pretty cool story/achievement there, Art. Say, do you read www.amasuperbike.com? Pretty good site, covers (almost) all motorcycle racing, even a bit of MotoGP. BTW, aren't we forgetting John Surtees? The only person to ever won both two and four-wheeled world championships? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1627 Registered: 6-2001 |
When Ken Roberts tried to go to cars, his instructors comments on how dense he was, regarding the heel and toe, etc. Same issue with Mert Lawill (friend and client), etc. I could go on and on, but it is difficult to make the transition, and an awful lot of very, very skilled riders haven't been able to make this happen. I ride with some auto racers, and it seems to me that they make the transition without a lot of trouble. Art | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arthur, Okay I'm cool if Ferrari did help Ducati with the V4, If I was designing it I'd want all the help I can get Interesting that Ducati do not mention that anywhere but do mention that they had Cosworth help with the new Testaressa engine ... why not Ferrari help with that one? I do not know Anyway, could on the Italian racing companies helping each other out On the Schumacher versus Rossi: I personally think it is much easier to go from bikes to cars ... thus Rossi has the advantage. Riding a bike has alot more to it than just the lines, the whole moving around on the bike and weight transfer ... er, you do not have to do that in a car Rossi did crash out of the rally attempt ... and when Colin MacCrae (sp?) had a swap with somebody in the bar F1 ... I think it was fairly even. But bikes versus cars ... completely different. The only comparison is that feel for the machine that you need. I am also surprised that Verstapin can beat MS in karts as I have heard that MS is a bit of a legend in them ... and Verstapin, er, has no talent IMO. All the great F1 drivers have excelled in karts ... so this does not compute Pete | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1623 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jack: The only I can say is that it was very difficult for me, and I have seen others make the transition the other way with what appears to be less of a problem. Jeff Ward (IRL now, motorcross champion) is one of the few who came from motorcycles and had some success with cars (2nd at Indy one year, numeous other to 5 finishes at Indy). Art | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 586 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>The primary difference is the manner<<< Wouldn't that work both ways? I.e. making a car just as "different" for a bike guy as a bike would be to a car guy? Just guessing of course as I like to track cars for fun but am not much of a bike fanatic apart from an attic full of vintage stuff. >>>Speaking of Karts, have you ever been to the Vegas Kart track on a Friday night Too far away for me as I live in The Netherlands.... :-( Jack | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1618 Registered: 6-2001 |
I'm basing my opinion on my experiences and from what I've seen. While I was never in the same league as Rossi, I did compete at the National level and even lead a race or two, which gives me a bit of experience in this. I also have a shifter kart, which I'm learning to drive. The primary difference is the manner that cars get into the corner and how bikes get into the corner. What that means is that the cars take a slightly different line through the corners, have differences between how they brake for the corner, etc. The exits are probably close to the same, since the MotoGP guys are sliding the bikes out of the corner. Speaking of Karts, have you ever been to the Vegas Kart track on a Friday night, when there is no CART race that weekend. Might want to take a look at the starting grid there. Looks like a CART grid. Art | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 579 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Art, I am still sticking to my initial "bet" as although the "lines etc." might be different between the two diciplines, I think that being fast on a bike requires more "feel" as the margins are narrower. I have also never seen anybody make a succesfull switch from cars to bikes but have seen it happen the other way around (Surtees amongst others who became WC in both diciplines). A good comparisson in my eyes is always when you put F1 drivers in a kart. I automatically start to smile again when I think back of Senna and Prost battling it out at Paris Bercy in karts... IMHO karting comes close both F1 and bike racing, maybe it's even the ultimate mix of both. MS is FAST in a kart but still gets is a$$ whipped by Verstappen on a regular basis at kart tracks around Europe (mostly in private) and that while Verstappen is considered to be a lesser god in a F1 car. I still put my money on Rossi... Jack | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1615 Registered: 6-2001 |
The skills are different. I would put my money on Schumacher being the faster of the two comparison wise. The lines, means of turn, etc. are far different with cars than motorcycles. Ask Eddie Lawson about how hard it was to make than transition, ask Mike Hailwood (he's dead, sorry) about the same problem. Rossi is very good, but I don't think he's in the same league as Schumacher. Art | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 576 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>Rossi is the 2 wheeled Schumacher Nah... Schumacher is a 4-wheeled Rossi... ;-) Hypothetical question to all: We know that both gentlemen are extremely good at their sports and that both gentlemen also like to change "the number of wheels" that they ride / drive. MS is known to like cruising on touring bikes and Rossi has competed in rallyes so neither of them is a complete stranger to the other's dicipline. Suppose we would make them swap places, i.e. we put MS on Rossi's Honda and we put Rossi in MS's F2003, who do you think would be faster? I think that we can safely assume that they will each remain masters in their own dicipline, i.e. MS won't be faster on the Honda than Rossi and Rossi won't be faster in the F2003 than MS so I am thinking will Rossi in the F2003 come closer to MS's fastest time at a given track than MS on the Honda will come close to Rossi's fastest time at a given track? I think I would put my money on Rossi being the faster one of the two. Jack | ||
| Warren Dodge (Spiderman)
New member Username: Spiderman Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2001 |
Rossi is the 2 wheeled Schumacher. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1610 Registered: 6-2001 |
Psk: I forgot to mention that the 999 in works trim makes about 165HP, not 140 (with the new Superbike rules, that is the minimum you need to be competive in the class. With the 1000s running, making over 180HP, the Ducatis will not be competive until they can get more power, so you're probably right about the V4 engine being needed even for superbike). That 140 HP engine is the for sale engine. Art | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1609 Registered: 6-2001 |
Psk: I heard that Ducati had a little help from some Ferrari engineers. I'm well aware of the World Superbike engine, having ridden versions of that engine ending with the 916 (when my career was over). I have seen, riden, worked on, tuned, and developed those engines in the bikes that I rode over the years, starting with the bevel drive engine, the Panta engine, the 888, and the 916. Even won a race or two on them. Art | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 449 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arthur, Ferrari is involved with MV Augusta NOT Ducati, and yes Ducati have been able to design great little grunters for many years. This engine is a v4 still using the Desmo valve train ... and lets remember that their 999 twin produces around 140hp ... and that has the limitations of being a twin and a road production engine. A v4 will naturally kick this engine into the bin, and I believe this MotoGp one revs to 16000rpm hence the big power. Ferrari are great but I think some of us need to remove the one eye patch . Motorcycle engines have always been better than car engines ... Lets remember that Honda F1 engines made Ferrari look very ordinary as did the Renault one ... and that the Ferrari engine designer was bought in from Japan for the v10 ... probably an Ex-Honda guy?? Ferrari are not the only Italian company that is successful Pete | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1597 Registered: 6-2001 |
MFZ: I raced a Ducati in the 80s. Rode for a guy by the name of Steve Wynne, from Bollington, England. You may have heard of him. Did Hailwood's Ducatis. Art | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 275 Registered: 2-2003 |
Holy •••• Art, Hopper is your client? Who else? Nicky Hayden? Colin Edwards II? The Bostrom brothers? Nice to see you representing the former American Formula Extreme champion, tell him good luck with his season, from a longtime Suzuki fan. Yes, he was awesome in that race. Hopper surprised me when he brought that bike past everyone else, and ended up third at the first corner of the first lap. For those who do not know, Suzuki MotoGP bikes are probably the least powerful, least advanced and practically sucks. 2000 500cc champion Kenny Roberts Jr basically said that the bike was not rideable at the last South Africa. Incidentally he won his championship on a two stroke Suzuki, which again is a turd compared to the Hondas etc. He won the championship because there was no real credible opposition that year. I was surprised that he didn't bail on Suzuki even after their sponsor pulled out and the fact that their bikes development is slow compared to the other teams. I don't think Ferrari helped in designing the engine. Maybe the designers were signed away from Ferrari, or maybe a few used to work there, but Ducati has a very successful motorcyle racing record, only it's on Superbikes (based on production bikes, uses 4 stroke engines), not on MotoGPs (all of them prototypes, ala F1, used 2 strokes engines before the rule change). I believe their engine still retain typical Ducati characteristics, like the desmodromic valves, whatever that is. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1592 Registered: 6-2001 |
If any of you saw the race, the real show was John Hopkins. Qualified 7th, ran 3rd until his rearsets broke, ended up 7th, with no footpeg. Also happens to be a client. This kid is, in my opinion, better than Rossi (not that Rossi isn't one of the all time greats). Is anyone at Ferrari willing to admit that they designed the Ducati engine? The Ducati makes about 250hp, about 20 more than the Honda, and I just don't believe that someone could produce that motor without help (Ferrari). Art | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1571 Registered: 1-2002 |
I want to change my name to Valentino Rossi. That has to be about the best name in the world! | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 643 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jack thanks for clering that up. I thought he was talking about the avg. kph per lap. Still impressive! | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 537 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Jon, What was said was that the SPEED was 3 KM/H higher, meaning TOP speed down the straight. MS lapped Barcelona in 1.20.something this year during the race. Capirossi's fastest time on his Duc during the March 2003 tests at Barcelona was 1.43.643. There is no way that a bike will lap a track faster than a car which has sufficient power for the simple fact that it is 2 small patches of rubber on the ground vs. 4 relatively large patches. BTW, did anybody watch last Sunday's MOTOGP at Jerez? ROSSI RULES ! Jack | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 641 Registered: 8-2001 |
Interesting read below: http://www.crash.net/news_detail.asp?championship_id=6&news_id=65326&language_id=1 Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge |