| Author | Message | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 992 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yeah John - Deborah Renshaw, 24, was that driver. Speedway management did not stop the scheme to protest her race car � a situation which had been carefully planned and plotted long before the race started. Several drivers contributed money to the protest fee, and a car was entered in the race for the express purpose of dropping out early so it could protest Renshaw's sixth-place finish (a driver has to finish behind the car he or she is protesting). The incident has become a national story: Several male drivers plotted to get the division's lone female humiliated and kicked out. Renshaw was disqualified after a cylinder head in her motor failed inspection by 1/6,000th of an inch. Track competition director Jerry Hargrove said the violation was ''one of the most minute'' he has ever seen, and estimated that ''at least 25 percent, probably more'' of the other cars could not have passed a similar inspection. Some of the drivers and crewmen involved in the protest laughed and joked and one sipped beer as they watched Renshaw's car being torn down by inspectors. ''I was embarrassed and devastated,'' said Renshaw, who last week moved to Nashville from her home in Bowling Green, Ky., to try to further her racing career. ''I couldn't believe they'd go that that extreme. What hurts most is that I had worked so hard to earn their respect, then discovered that they had ganged up behind my back to get rid of me.'' A few races later Mark Day was disqualified for illegal fuel if I remember correctly. Deborah was also involved in a death of a fellow racer - without proper spootting and the speed of those cars she came around a corner and drove into a competitors car that had been sidelined.....unfortunately the way it happened killed the guy. A very tragic racing accident. But for Deborah - she was accused of murder threatened, her gender came into play - such negativity because of an accident that ANY driver could of been involved in. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 695 Registered: 8-2001 |
One of my team mates in Spec Racer Ford who races with me at HRaceEngineering is a women and in her 40's or 50's (age). She has two things many hold against her she is female and older. Yet she kicks my butt around the track and many other young male hotshoes. But I have seen some male racers do some nasty stuff on the track to her that is often completely uncalled for. Last year Pat was involved in two horrendous wrecks and both incidents did not need to occur except that some male racers were determined not to let their ego's or their cars get passed by a female. I am 100 % convinced that had it not been Pat but a male racer, the incidents would not have occured or would have been less agressive. You've all heard of the "Red Mist" well it becomes torrential downpour when a female is involved not a mist. I remember reading somewhere (Nika maybe you can shed some light here) about an accomplished female stock car racer who was winning races and in the lead for a championship at the last race. Can't remember what exactly happend but something like 20 other drivers got together to figure out some way to make sure she didn't win without having to do the obvious and deliberately punt her off the track. She ended up losing the race due to their efforts and the sanctioning body did nothing about it saying she was a "women" and should get used to it. Discrimination exists in every facet of life and will do so in every facet of motorsports as well which is quite a shame. Regards, Jon | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 989 Registered: 12-2001 |
I respect a female racer - that is just a plain racer at heart - no "I am woman hear me roar" That's BS - just drive girl....earn your respect THAT way | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2001 |
Well, I think the reason men "can't handle it" is that it is so rare. If women began to beat men often, I doubt it would be a big problem. Men would think they were just being beat my another driver, not a "woman driver". | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 630 Registered: 9-2001 |
I really think the biggest problem with a woman in F1 is that she may win, and men being men we really couldn�t handle that. If you think cold water causes shrinkage, wait until a woman wins an F1 race. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 979 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ahhhhhh - thank you Dave - I feel "loved" finally! | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 977 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sorry Rich - I don't really care much for studies - so I don;t have them lying around....it's what people have brought to my attention in the last few years. I do remember one was British - from the 70s and it was quite extensive. Maybe doing a google search for motorsports or getting in touch with that facilty in Florida that does driver testing | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2001 |
Taek-Ho, thanks. But I was talking about wanting to see the studies Nika mentioned, ha! (though I'm sure the ones you are talking about are also interesting). | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1788 Registered: 1-2002 |
Nika, just for you, liebchen:  | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 813 Registered: 11-2002 |
Nika, the human pain threshold is difficult to gauge because it is so dependent on the individual. That said, pain during childbirth is generally a natural necessary evil for the propagation of the species. Just because it is a feeling no man will likely undergo does not make it a feeling that would be unbeareable to men. That said, I do agree with the what you mentioned abou the drugs! I was just addressing the implication of the comment, and previous references in your other posts. So please don't take my head off...  Fact does remain that test subjects when it came to pin pricks to hammers and wires plugged on their heads, men did have a milder physiological reaction to the amounts of "pain" inflicted on them. Cheers | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 976 Registered: 12-2001 |
Higher pain threshold in men? Let me just say ....if MEN gave birth.......epidurals and drugs would of been invented in the 14th century!!!! | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 812 Registered: 11-2002 |
Damn, I saw that coming. Rich I meant my last post to be part of the one right before it. Those studies are confidential but I can have some people run similar research if you float me a check . Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 811 Registered: 11-2002 |
That said, these generalizations mean nothing when it comes to motorsports. Those individuals FAR exceed the norm be it a woman or a man. So it comes down to independent comparisons, driving style and such. Cheers | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 243 Registered: 10-2001 |
I'd be interested in reading those studies. I wonder how one gets a "control group" in such a study. For example, women were faster than men at reaction time - which women? which men? I've heard this too and believe it for the average man and average woman if you picked 1000 people off the street. But that doesn't mean that the top man and top woman, if tested, will show the same results. But like you said, we can't test that yet because the women haven't had as much opportunity to max out yet as the men have. Will be exciting to see where it goes in the future. I hope more women get a chance. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 810 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a marketing research company that did some research (duh) for a pharmaceutical company. Turns out that women have in general steadier reactions and quicker reaction times in times of stress and perceived danger. Nika you mentioned coordination, that is another area women excelled in. Men on the other hand had more strength, endurance, and a higher pain threshold (which I think explains the earlier threads about the dearth of women in the Ferrari community). Cheers | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 975 Registered: 12-2001 |
from all the studies I've read - there is no physical factor in F1 racing that a female body cannot do - and cannot do well. What you are saying is that in the end a woman is weaker and it will interfere in her driving ability. That's wrong. All comparative studies that I have read showed female and male drivers equal in a "high performace" driving study. Including eye movement, strength, stamina, co-ordination - funny thing - women excelled in reaction time though - by a very small margin - go figure! PS - Thank you Dave - but you have to post Viking tart to make me KNOW it's really you! | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 242 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think my previous post goes a long way to describing possible roadblocks to any woman being in the top 20 drivers in the world. They will be operating at a higher percentage of their potential strength and stamina than the men would be - and therefore have less left over for the stuff your body/mind must do to drive the car. If you can lift 300 lbs. and your opponent can only lift 200 lbs., you will also be able to lift 10 pounds much more frequently and precisely than your opponent can. This is the whole basis for training. But hey, you may be right. Maybe racing is the one sport in which women can compete at the top level if given the opportunity. Or maybe there are lots of other activities, ranging from golf to shooting to archery to skiing to whatever that women really do have the potential to be in the top ranks. I'm only 34 so I have a long life ahead of me to see it when it happens. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1787 Registered: 1-2002 |
I've gotta go with Nika on this one 100%. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 974 Registered: 12-2001 |
back to the part about a female winning the Paris Dakar rally - it took strength and endurance. Remember what Janet Guthrie said (the first woman to run Indy 500) when asked about upper body strength - " I drive the car not carry it!" Rich - for me to accept your position I need you to tell me that driving an F1 car takes someone that can benchpress 300lbs...which women can't.......do that and I will agree | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 241 Registered: 10-2001 |
One potential reason related to physical strength. The closer we are to our physical limits, the harder time we have thinking clearly, reacting quickly, and other traits very important to driving. The female drivers will always be closer to those limits than the top male counterparts. I suspect this is why the top F1 drivers put so much emphasis on training. Michael is fit enough to probably drive 10 hours in the car. He doesn't need to but this means he is a much better driver for the 2 hours or whatever he is in the car because he is operating at a lower percentage of physical exertion than he would be were he not in such good shape and therefore his senses are sharper and concentration better and reaction time better and so on. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 240 Registered: 10-2001 |
Good question, we'll have to ask the F1 teams why they feel physical fintess is so important to their drivers. But like I said in my original post, if it turns out that fitness is not as important as the current F1 teams think it is, then given the opportunity, we will have women in F1. That would be cool. But if it happens, it will be a first in "sports". | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 973 Registered: 12-2001 |
Rich - you are telling me men can do it better but not giving me a reason why? It's not a running marathon. Yes - the female body is different then the males - but what makes a racer? | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 239 Registered: 10-2001 |
Nika, I'm not claiming that women can't do it. Only that men can probably always do it better and this will keep women out of F1. I don't know what other sport we can compare it to. Maybe running? It does not take massive strength to run a marathon and surely women have had the opportunity to run for millenium and yet there are thousands of men who beat the women's marathon world record. I'm just not sure the opportunity argument can go all the way to world class levels. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 970 Registered: 12-2001 |
Rich - what physical aspect are you talking about? Strength - driving an F1 car does not take someone that can bench press 300lbs..... Stamina? - Women have endured 36 hours of childbirth - PLUUUUEASE! THAT is endurance. Give me a specific physical quality and trust me - gender does NOT play a part. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 238 Registered: 10-2001 |
I'm sure it's lack of opportunity that keeps many women from being top club racers or heck, even nascar or indy car racers. Everyone deserves the opportunity to participate at the level they are qualified for and to be allowed to continue to improve and move up. But will a female driver ever make it to F1? It's the top level that demands absolutely super human physical abilities, no? (if that's not true then everything I have to say next can be disregarded) Remember how much Williams was worried about Montoya's fitness level? He had just dominated in the states and yet they were totally unimpressed with his condition. If F1 athletes are among the fittest in the world as commonly believed and they must be to perform at the level they do, then one wouldn't have to be crazy or misogynistic to assume that men will continue to dominate regardless of the opportunity given to women racers. From women's performance in other sports in which they have generations of experience and unlimited opportunity, it just seems men have a physiological advantage that can't be overcome. This isn't to say that women shouldn't race - of course they should! It's not to say that they can't handle an F1 car, because surely they can. But we have to allow ourselves to consider that there are physiological differences at play here that will prevent them from breaking into the top level, just as it has in other sports. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 968 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sponsorship is a big issue - here's my article about it - I wrote it after Sara Fisher could not get sponsorship for the Homestead race even though she had a podium finish there the year before: http://www.racerchicks.com/chick_pick/CP_Nika_sponsor.html Yes - I have been told "off the record" from co. reps that they would NOT sponsor a female - bad PR if she ever got into a race wreck...... As for the physical demands of racing - I've read everything I could find and not one study shows women do not have what it takes to compete. As for agressive attitude - it can be learned. Have you ever come between a mother bear and her cubs? Women can be very protective and agressive. Same goes for the myth that women are better on machinery - not as hard on the race car - that is just driving technique and NOT specific to a gender. I've talked about this issue until blue in the face - radio shows, tv, in print....I try to be fair and open - yes money and talent are big issues but in the case of a female racer - many times it's as simple as opportunity. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 693 Registered: 8-2001 |
Just wanted to clarify something I stated earlier about females lacking the aggressiveness to win at the top. I did not mean to imply that females lack the aggressiveness to win at the top. I was trying to point out that those women who did make it top often seem to lack that trait. I think that many women who make it to the top have to meet the same criteria as men.......namely money!!! Just like there are plenty of male racers who have marginal talent but huge checkbooks or backing, I think the same can be said for some female racers. Racing at the top takes talent and money. You can be a little short in the talent department BUT not in the MONEY department. If you look into the sprint car ranks and the lower levels of NASCAR there at least half a dozen talented female racers that have boat loads of talent and the agressiveness to win but not the money. I think sponsors are still undecided about funding female racers and what impact such funding benefits the sponsor. As Nika pointed out it's a numbers game. You start with 100 kids in go-kart at age 4 and by the time you get to Formula Atlantic/F3 maybe 3 or 4 of them have made it there. Then only one makes it to F1. When there are only 3 or 4 females in that first 100 you can see the odds on making it. I think that the same "cold" determination and agressiveness that helps males win on the track is needed by females. But I think sponsors will put up with a less than friendly male racer (look at JV at BAR and Stewart in NASCAR) than they will a female. Just my opinion, maybe Nika can shed some light on this. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 FLATOUT RACING Website: http://neverlift.homestead.com/flatout.html | ||
| will h (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2003 |
"Sorry but the number of women in racing are going to grow....build on a female fan base and make motorsports even more popular." Why sorry? Had my daughter shown an interest in racing, I would have encouraged her, and more important backed her financially to the full extent of my resources. I also truly hope you are correct that the involvement of women will increase the popularity of open wheel and sports car racing. I agree that the "lead time" for developing a racer can be quite long. I am still not convinced that women can compete with men successfully at the highest level, say, producing a female F1 champion - that as you say there are "no physical limitations" - am I allowed to say things like that in 2003, in public, in a PC world? - but perhaps I will be proven wrong, and yet another door will be opened for folks like my daughter. Racerchicks is a very impressive site, great photo of GV's car. Regards, Will | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 966 Registered: 12-2001 |
My dear - it always seems faster in the passenger seat! Yes racing is a very physically demanding sport! I wonder how in the world that tiny German lady won the Paris Dakar rally a couple years ago! (grumble) There are no physical limitations with female racers. Many male drivers are far from top form.....I have watched NASCAR! The reason women are not in the top ranks of racing is really the process of HOW a racer get's there......the feeders series. Start with 100 racers as they move up talent/money/experience etc it dwindles down to a select few. Wwe have a limited number of young women that started racing in the beginning ranks therefiore we will have fewer in the top series. Racing 10 years ago just like today is %-wise mostly male right? But NOW many MORE young women are in karting, for example, and I intend to see them 10 years from now in IRL/CART/F1 etc. Look at my website www.racerchicks.com - 130 women that race featured.......1.5 million hits per month (75% female readership) Sorry but the number of women in racing are going to grow....build on a female fan base and make motorsports even more popular. As for Danica - she has talent - I can only assume her magazine spread was a BAD PR/Promo deal she HAD to do. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1770 Registered: 1-2002 |
Terry, you're right. This past weekend, I was an instructor at a HPDE here in Texas, and I took the 550 to give it some exercise (I usually track my E36 M3). As expected, many people lined up for rides. Those who had not done much of this before, I told I would take it easy & do slower laps, in order to not alarm/nauseate them too much. To a person, each of these uninitiated said, after 2 or 3 warm-up laps, "You call this SLOW?????" Priceless. And I go WAY faster & harder in the M3. I rarely take the uninitiated with me in that car--not sure they could handle it. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 560 Registered: 4-2002 |
You are correct about the clueless masses. Most people have absolutely no idea how physical racing can be. Todays F1 drivers are the top athletes on the planet. The environment they operate in for 2 hours straight is one of the most violent experiences possible. The pull 4+ G lateral acceleration, 6 G's under maximum braking at 3G's acceleration at times... lap after lap. F1 drivers have been known to maintain heart rates in excess of 140 beats per minute for the entire 2 hour race! NO other sport places anywhere near the physical demands on the participants.... Now add to this incredible physical element that total concentration and commitment that racing requires. All that still not enough to convince someone racing is the most balls-out sport in the world? OK, Lets talk about the penalty for a mistake.... I have taken quite a few people who have never been in a fast car on a racetrack for rides in the past, mostly in a tricked out 993 I had. Im not the worlds fastest driver... and it was not a massivly fast car. Still, every newcomer who ever rode with me was just blown away at how fast "fast" really is. They had no clue that cars could actually go around corners like that or that braking from 130mph could be that violent. Even a ride with a doofus like me in a Porsche is plenty to convince the general idiot that racing is indeed a tough sport! | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1161 Registered: 11-2001 |
willh - your chain of logic is rational. i understand what you mean. the vast clueless majority (as it concerns racing) would probably in fact look at women entering the ranks as a reason to poo-poo racing even more  . i think all the people who think racing "isn't a sport" have never spent an hour on the track pushing themselves and their cars. i'm a totally worthless track driver, not pushing any envelopes (but my own) and it's definitely something of a workout. i would make the assertion that a mix of male and female drivers could serve to help the sport in the US. other than nascar, racing has nowhere to go but up around here. good luck to patrick! dooody. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1759 Registered: 1-2002 |
Cool, Jon! She is a very gifted driver. I hope she does well. Thanks for posting this. | ||
| will h (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2003 |
Doody: I suppose it is hard to imagine sports car and open wheel racing becoming even less popular in the US! I trust my comment does not make me the FChat misogynist of the day. In any event, I believe that one popular misconception that hurts racing is that driving a race car is just like fishtailing around the neighborhood, only a little faster and in a car covered with goofy stickers. From my intelligent, great guy brother in law, to Fred Klein, who has written about sports for The Wall Street Journal, I have heard the theory that racing is not "really" a true sport and race car drivers are not "really" athletes - that success in racing is determined principally, perhaps almost wholly, not by the driver's work but by the efforts of others. When Sports Illustrated's hilarious "Sport?" column recently featured auto racing, top athletes from other sports opined that racing is not a sport. Should women compete successfully with men at the highest levels of racing, I suspect the "racing ain't a sport" crowd will use that success as evidence that racing is somehow easier than the major sports, such as baseball, Yankee football, ROW football, basketball, hockey, even golf!, in which women have not widely competed with men, nor found substantial success against men. I hope no one else notices this thread. I'm new to FChat, and don't want to be banished! Everyone favors free speech in theory - very few favor its practice by those with whom they violently disagree. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1160 Registered: 11-2001 |
As a racing fan, I think the popularity of the sport will be hurt if women successfully compete with men at the top level. Why do you think popularly will be hurt? Doody. | ||
| will h (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jon, of course I was tweaking you a bit. I thought the whole FHM thing showed either bad judgment or terrible management, but what do I know, really. As the father of a teenage daughter, I love to see her out there mixing it up and wish her well. As a racing fan, I think the popularity of the sport will be hurt if women successfully compete with men at the top level. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 688 Registered: 8-2001 |
Actually I didn't like the FHM photos of her. Something cheap about them that didn't fit her image. I have been a fan of hers since learning about her 2nd place in the UK Formula Ford Festival a few years back. She beat several drivers that are either in F3000 now or testing with F1 teams. In fact the person who beat her is now BAR's chief test driver (filled in a couple of races in F1 last year for Minardi). He also won the F3000 Championship in 2001. I also know some of the guys who work for Milner Racing (PTG BMW's) and they gave her a tryout in one of their V8M3GTR's literally weeks before the ACIO banned them (or effectively forced them to drop out). My source their said she ran some laps that were only half a second off of Boris Said's lap times. I mainly like her because she seems to have that killer attitude that some female racers who have come up throught the ranks lack. I am thinking specifically of Sarah Fisher. Nice young girl but she just doesn't seem to have the talent and the agressiveness to win at the top. I think Danica does have it. Some people think she is quite cold but that is the same attitude she uses to her advantage at the track. That and of course she is a knock out to look at. Regards, Jon | ||
| will h (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jon, are you a fan of her driving, or her FHM magazine modeling portfolio (not that I've seen it)? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 678 Registered: 8-2001 |
And possibly Lemans in the future. http://www.crash.net/news_detail.asp?championship_id=9&news_id=66800&language_id=1 Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 Flatout Racing Website: http://neverlift.homestead.com/flatout.html |