| Author | Message | ||
| Becker Cu�llar (Becker)
Junior Member Username: Becker Post Number: 75 Registered: 2-2001 |
A closer shot here http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6865166%255E12173,00.html | ||
| will h (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2003 |
Strongly agree with Pete. Some degree of muscle is IMO part of the sport. No Lady Bing trophy here. With a right hander approaching, it's a bit much to expect Ralph to know Kimi is diving up the outside of Rubens. To me, it hurts the sport to read the rules as prohibiting any form of intimidation or turf protection. A shame so many cars were lost, and terrible for Rubens to be sure. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 863 Registered: 11-2002 |
While I understand Jon's comments and respect them, it looked like a plain and simple racing incident to me. RS was just trying to cover his line, and did not realise that he had 2 cars, not 1 beside him. If there had only been one they could have moved over. Many times in the sheparding game of motorsport you force the other guy to move or back off, it is part of the sport, and it is where the size of your **lls are tested. Ayton used to push everybody, everywhere and most moved because they knew what a desperate man Ayton was and that he would rather crash than not win ... funny how we all look back and admire a madman behind the wheel ... brilliant driver like MS, but had his failings. Lets becareful that we do not stop all of this sort of action, as it is from this stuff that passing occurrs. My personal belief is that we have little passing nowadays because the drivers are too scared of stuffing up and getting the boss pissed off for all the wasted sponsorship opportunities, etc. We need more drivers to grow balls and say stuff the business of the sport and I am going out there to win or walk back to the pits, with my head held high. Pete | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1708 Registered: 10-2002 |
Interesting points Jon. Makes sense. However in my cynical mind Nuerburgring (2 years ago?) comes back: MS forcing his brother 'into the wall' and off the gas. Prost and Senna did similar things to each other (Suzuka eg.). I'm not defending RS, but it sounds it is not as uncommon. We all lament boring races, but once a driver goes a bit wild, we condem the guy? We're just cutting ourselves out of the action.  | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 860 Registered: 8-2001 |
As for Ralph's accident being a racing incident, I don't agree. What MS does at beginning of a race is legal and quite different than what Ralph did. The cutting across the line that MS frequently does consists of slashing in front of the other driver. The key operative here is "in front". What Ralph did today was try to force RB to take a wider line by pushing him out further off line. That is only legal under FIA rules if your given line through a corner forces you wide. In other words momentum forces you wide. Ralph clearly made an effort to push RB off line. Momentum did not play a role here in forcing Ralph's car wide. I don't for one minute buy RS claim he didn't know anyone was there. In my opinion he knew damn well RB was there and expected him to yield. What RS didn't know or couldn't see was that Riakkonen was beside RB and that RB had no place to go. Forcing a racer to vacate a piece of track he already has occupied is quite different than beating a racer to a piece of track not yet occupied. MS beats his opponent to the spot by cutting in front of them, frcing them to lift or risk hitting them. While you may not like these moves they conform to the rules. What RS did today does not conform to the rules. Rs got what he deserved today. Regards, Jon P. Kofod | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 859 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jon, remember '82 where Rosberg 'inherited' the championship with just one win to his credit? Stuff like that happens. Yep, sure do remember Keke's year. He still gets a lot a flack for that Championship but I think times were different then. Cars blew up more freqently. Consider that of Nelson's Piquet's three world titles, he never won more than 3 races in any of them. I don't think in today's F1 world you could ever win a Championship with only 3 wins even with the new points system. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 219 Registered: 3-2003 |
The biggest shame of this is the erratic officiating. If this type of penalty were administered every time a driver caused a front runner to dnf, I could accept it. But in this case, someone is making an example of Ralf's poor judgement. I'm with you Andreas. It looked like a racing incident to me. Ralf didn't have to move over but he did. Kimi was pratically off the course anyway and found himself at the point of no return. Poor Rubens was caught between them. 10 grid positions is a tremendous penalty. Let's hope it gets sorted out before Hungary. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1703 Registered: 10-2002 |
The FIA has punished Ralf with the verdict, that he has to go ten grid positions back for the next GP (Hungary). Sounds pretty cruel to me, after all I think it was a racing incident. Caused by Ralf, but not in a blatantly stupid way. On a more positive note: Spa is back in the calendar for next year! | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1702 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well, Ralf cost Michael already one championship (by taking him out while driving a Jordan). And Michael has bullied him on occasion (e.g. Nuerburgring). Ever since Ralf got a lot more careful, when dealing with his brother (see Brazil last year or Canada this year). So I wouldn't assume flying sparks next time they meet. And with the current points situation I think the game is all but over for Ralf anyway. He'll probably stay out of Michael's way. I think going forward we'll see more conservative driving from Montoya and Michael. And once we're in Suzuka, they'll both drive the sh_it out of their cars. Controlled aggression will be king in the last race. Can't wait to see that finale! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2271 Registered: 6-2001 |
Blood is thicker than water. You may have a point there, but I doubt it. Now that both cars are on an almost equal footing, I wonder what will happen if they do end up running into each other on the track? Art | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1701 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arthur, I realize that. I was actually more thinking along the lines: Ralf and Michael had a chat during which they discussed how Ralf would take out the opponents on the left side so Michael can coast away to the right. Not that they would ever do such a thing... | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2266 Registered: 6-2001 |
Andreas: It was a tongue in cheek type of comment, but it sure makes you think about it. Art | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1696 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jon, remember '82 where Rosberg 'inherited' the championship with just one win to his credit? Stuff like that happens. I like the new points system, the WC has not been so captivating for a long time. 6 points lead with four more races to go is fantastic. Remember last year it was over for already a month. What a bore that was. As Bernie said: The title will be won in the last race in the last lap in the last turn. Too bad that will be at about 2am in the morning here, oh well. Arthur, I don't think that was team orders. Ralf can pull stunts like that all by himself... The Ferraris really have a problem. .7 seconds away from pole is way too much with 4 more races. That's really worrysome. I also think, that race had to be red flagged. Of course it helped (or almost did) MS, but it was totally unfair to Rubens, Kimi and Ralf (to some degree). They got robbed of their chance for the race and the WC. I think it comes all down to Bernie wanting his show within the two hour time frame for which he rents the global satellites. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 854 Registered: 8-2001 |
Yep, Hubert is right we need to change the rules again at the end of this year to keep Williams from pulling a Ferrari (3 consecutive titles). Maybe go back to Bernies idea that drivers switch cars, or invert the qualifying order, or maybe let the fans drive the cars, or maybe ...... Oh hell wait a minute I have a BMW too...... Never mind! Seriously though, I know most of your love the action of a close championship battle but these rules were a stupid idea in the first place meant to be a free handout to teams who failed to fairly compete with Ferrari. At one point this season MS had won 4 races to Kimi's one race and was only 2 points ahead in the title battle after the mid point season. You should be heavily rewarded for winning the race and not given near equal points for finishing 2nd or 3rd nearly a minute off the pace. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 905 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sounds good to me Hubert and it looks to be going that way too... MS finally having the back luck that many of his opponents experienced over the years and Williams looking to finally have found the balance in the car that they need together with a reliable engine and what look to be the best tires... Jack | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1188 Registered: 1-2002 |
had that tire not come apart MS would have got 2nd. funny though... all last years whining about the sport being boring, hmm, what was montoyas lead? 65 seconds... and lapped everyone up to 4th? only "moves" made were by MS on trulli, and DC on trulli; aside from the 1st lap debacle it was another 90 minute parade lap, just wasn't a ferrari at the lead. if this keeps up it'll be "...gee, won't the williams ever stop winning???" | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 900 Registered: 4-2003 |
They will only red-flag it when there is a dangerous situation on the track or in the run-off areas that can not be cleaned up within a couple of laps. Jack | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 300 Registered: 2-2003 |
What's with the new policy of bringing out the safety car instead of red flagging the start whenever there's a startline or first lap incident? Personally, I think this is unfair to drivers who are 'victimised' in such incidents, like Rubens, Frentzen and Justin Wilson yesterday and Kimi at that one race where he started at the back of the grid earlier this season. Use the red flag, dammit! | ||
| Justin (Justin)
New member Username: Justin Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2003 |
What a mess that race was. Kimi hasn't had any breaks this season....hopefully he'll be able to pull something off in the last few races! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2261 Registered: 6-2001 |
RSchumacker got penalized for his driving that knocked out the entire front row, except Montoya. Any bets on whether it was team orders or not? Art | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 894 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dave, as somebody else mentioned before here on FerrariChat, I would call that 7th place "a mature drive to conserve championship points".... GRINNNNNNNN! What a pity RB got knocked out of it so early, same goes for Kimi btw. Driver of the race, for me, would be DC with "a mature drive to TAKE championship points" and going from 10th to 2nd. As somebody overhere mentioned, Ron Dennis should give DC a race-to-race contract to keep the pressure on him, as contract pressure seems to be doing wonders for his driving spirit. Jack | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Intermediate Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 1238 Registered: 3-2002 |
I was still pretty tired this morning and kept nodding off during the race. The end was alright, I guess, but did I miss much of anything during the middle? I saw the start--sucked since I had Rubens in our work pool. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2453 Registered: 1-2002 |
MS' launch control sucked...but he worked his way back to 2nd place. Can't prevent a flat tire, unfortunately; he's lucky he ended up in the points at 7th.. | ||
| Bart Duesler (The_bart)
Member Username: The_bart Post Number: 255 Registered: 1-2003 |
Darn it! Well, we have a few weeks now to fix the problems. | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member Username: Beast Post Number: 136 Registered: 5-2003 |
It could have been worse if the wreck between RB, RS, and KR did not happen. Bridgestone needs to get a better set of tires going right now and Ferrari needs to fix the Launch control fast also. going backwards at the start does not help matters much also. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2253 Registered: 6-2001 |
Montoya won it, Michael 7th. This is going to be an interesting season. Look for Michael and Montoya to be neck and neck at the end of the season. Ferrari better get their act together, Montoya had almost 70 second led at the end, lapped Michael. Art | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1692 Registered: 10-2002 |
Grid: 1) Montoya 2) Ralf 3) Rubens 4) Trulli 5) Kimi 6) Schumacher Allright Bernie, you can tell Michael to now get going with the Championship. Seriously, Michael being .7 seconds off the pole does not bond well. As we have seen in the past the qualifying session is more or less a good indicator on how fast they actually can go (not much fuel cheating so far). OTOH with the current points system it still takes a lot to shake things up. Let's assume the grid is the GP's result: Schumacher 72 Kimi 66 JPM 65 Ralf 61 This is going to be a nailbiter till the flag drops in Suzuka. | ||
| Andrew H (Stokpro)
Junior Member Username: Stokpro Post Number: 96 Registered: 6-2003 |
And in position 7, Justin Wilson!! Looks like he's sitting a lot lower in the Jag. Will be interesting to see the outcome on Sunday. Go RB and MS!! | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1684 Registered: 10-2002 |
First qualifying session: 1. Ralf 2. Montoya 3. Trulli .... 8. Rubens 9. Schumacher | ||
| Bart Duesler (The_bart)
Junior Member Username: The_bart Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2003 |
What a great season this has been. It is winding down and it is still close. Of course, my team is on top but not by much. This Sunday should be real fun. I do not beleive it will be as nuts as the last race. The second to last should be very interesting. |