| Author |
Message |
Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Member
Username: Ralessi
Post Number: 287
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 9:59 am: | |
This is great news. I certainly hope that the FIA follows through with this. Monza will CERTAINLY be interesting if every Michelin team is forced to use an entirely new tire. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Advanced Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2510
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 9:50 am: | |
Anthony:
That's the way it is in racing. When Toyota came into CART, they hired a mechanic/engineer from Honda. When he saw their designed, he laughed. No wonder they were down on HP, Honda and Ford and designed the intake manifolds on their engines to have a low-pressure area just below the turbo pop-off value, effectively increasing the boost another 1" or so. Made about 60 - 80 more HP. Toyota went to CART who then effectively outlawed that clever design, and all of a sudden the Toyotas were competitive.
Same deal here: something things of a legal way to circumvent the rule, gets caught, rule is changed, have to start over again. It's a never ending war.
Art |
Aaron Williams (Aawil)
Member
Username: Aawil
Post Number: 305
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
What's really strange is how a junk williams at the beginning of the season got so much better and the ferrari got so much worse.Tides usually don't swing that much. |
Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi12
Post Number: 1964
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 7:39 am: | |
Thanks for that Anthony, very interesting.
I always wondered when will the real tire war begin: Both manufacturers are rather liberal with the interpretation of the grooves. Look at the tires after the race and they're basically slicks. So far nobody was pointing a finger as both sit in the glass house. But now under pressure this might change.
20,000 km in testing? Whoa, that's twice the amount they do in racing all year. Compare that to one of the poorer teams (e.g. Sauber), which basically uses practice sessions for testing... |
Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Member
Username: Anthony_ferrari
Post Number: 374
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 6:12 am: | |
This has suddenly got very interesting.
"Last Tuesday, Japanese tyre supplier Bridgestone, analysed images from the Hungarian Grand Prix and in the process it came to their attention that the tread on the Michelin competitors was surprisingly wide. The broad front rubber now in question forms part of a new technology developed by Michelin for all their partner teams this season.
After this discovery, Bridgestone alerted Charlie Whiting, who in turn carried out certain checks. The technical delegate of the FIA then decided to change the interpretation of the regulation aimed at the checking of tyres. From now on, the tread width will be measured after use and must not exceed 270mm.
For Michelin, whose tyres were perfectly legal when measured up until now (specified by the regulations until today), this is very bad news. Indeed, the French manufacturer will have to conceive and develop all new compounds in time for Monza, fifteen days from now."
I can here the outcry now:
"Typical of the FIA to always twist the rules in Ferrari's favour!"
This is very interesting. I don't believe for a moment that Bridgestone 'analyzed images' of Michelin tyres as I know for a fact that a couple of Michelin tyres have 'gone missing' from Williams! I also know that they somehow found their way to Ferrari!
I read yesterday that sofar this season Ferrari have done over 20,000kms in testing which is more than any other team. They are expecting to do over 6000km next week at Monza, Mugello, and Fiorano! My friend will be at Monza next week. I'll ask her to e-mail me any interesting photos. |
Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 175
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 1:08 am: | |
"Does anyone know how long the Ferrari-Bridgestone contract is currently set for?"
Until the end of the 2004 season:
http://ms.bridgestone.co.jp/en/hp/bsms_contents_en?coid=109 |
Warren Balla (West662)
New member
Username: West662
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:40 am: | |
This is a very good topic and I think one of the most heated discussions going on in Formula 1 right now. I see where some of you are coming from, how the Michelins have a larger surface area of the tire on the track, as opposed to the Bridgestones. And Yeah, it makes sense, the more contact, the more grip. Sounds pretty simple. But, there must be more than that. No doubt the engineers at Bridgestone have thought about that, i mean, its obvious. They must be trying to acheive something else. Maybe they are on to something. The Bridgestones havent always been narrower have they? Maybe this new design is something they just have to work with and perfect. It definitely will take time, lets just hope they can pull it off.
Does anyone know how long the Ferrari-Bridgestone contract is currently set for? |
Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member
Username: Ferraristuff
Post Number: 895
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 2:05 pm: | |
I am not an admirer of either Bridgestone or Michelin but I think it is unfair to put all the blame for the relatively poor Ferrari performance on Bridgestone's account.
Not only is Michelin making quantum leaps in performance, so are the teams themselves, especially Renault who have turned a "hopeless" car into a podiumplace contender.
Even McLaren seem to be on par with Ferrari at the moment, especially when looking at the fight between MS and DC and ok, DC didn't pass MS but he came from 4 places further down the grid than MS (!) and they are still driving with their, albeit hugely improved, 2002 car.
Just my two cents.
Jack |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2258
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 1:46 pm: | |
Tire tecnology seem to leap frog in progress. The bridgestones worked really well, and now because they chose a different approach, the Michelins have caught and surpassed the Bridgestones. Bridgestone will have to re-think their approach, but it isn't going to happen this year, the Ferrari is literally designed for the current Bridgestone. Doesn't look good for the season.
Art |
Jack (Gilles27)
Intermediate Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 1239
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 12:10 pm: | |
Kind of an ironic twist, I think. Bridgestone originally enjoyed a competitive advantage with the exclusive Ferrari info-sharing arrangement. Michelin was seen as producing a compromised tire to suit McLaren and Williams, and thus would not be able to keep up. Now, however, since the other teams have stepped up their games, it appears that Bridgestone's hindered themselves by putting all their eggs in Ferrari's basket. Plus the Michelins look better for the reason Andreas mentioned. Who likes "roundy-looking" tires?! |
sindo rodil (308qv_miami)
Junior Member
Username: 308qv_miami
Post Number: 80
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 10:56 am: | |
Well todays race proves Bridgestone better get thier s--t together. Although this far into the season it seems unlikely. Lets keep our fingers crossed. |
todd a tiede (Apex)
New member
Username: Apex
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 3:36 pm: | |
Spot On Andreas...
Check the suspensions of the various shod cars...
Bridggy require absolute tolerances in order to achieve best 'foot print' while the Mich allows more conventional susp technology to get the same results. Adjustments to the Fcars to accomodate the tires has taken there platforms up and thus raised the center of gravity...
Me thinks the fcars have engineered themselves out of advantage their susp once provided them... |
Steve (V10_nut)
Junior Member
Username: V10_nut
Post Number: 98
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 3:36 pm: | |
I've heard the same thing about M's flat or square geometry with the trade off being that the car's set up has to be dead on to get the maximum effect. The B's geometry leaves a little more margin for error on the set up.
I'm no tire expert either and I know there are hundreds of variables and compromises (ie consistency, graining, blistering, expected track and weather conditions, etc.), but it still amazes me that focusing primarily on one team they can't get it right more often. Just wanted to vent a little. I'd like to be a fly on the wall in the closed-door Ferrari/Bridgestone discussions of late.
Steve |
Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi12
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 3:11 pm: | |
I'm certainly no tire expert, but it sounds as if the Michelins have made quantum leaps in development. I heard they're using carbon fibre for the tires to make them stronger. Not sure that is true or terribly innovative, but who knows.
However there are two more things, that make the Michelins different from the Bridgestones: They're geometry is very different, they're basically flat on top, whereas the Bridgestones are rounded. I would think, that the bigger the contact patch, the more grip you get, so Michelin's approach sounds like the way to go.
Second for the Michelins to work with that flat top, they need allegedly some special suspension and allegedly the Renault has exactly that.
So all in all it is probably more than just catching up, otherwise (as you said) it wouldn't be understandable why the Bridgestones are taking so long to come back. |
Steve (V10_nut)
Junior Member
Username: V10_nut
Post Number: 97
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 3:07 pm: | |
I've been hearing about Michelin's working better in the heat than the Bridggy's for the last two years. Yes I realize that Michelin was bound to improve on their first year results but please... everyone seems to know the Bridgestone high temp. weakness except the company that constructs them. With the millions they spend on development one would think the temperature issue would be resolved by now. Plus they really don't have to suck up to multiple teams like Michelin does. As long as the F-cars do well they don't seem to care where the rest of the Bridgestone runners place.
A little frustrated...
Steve |