| Author | Message | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 953 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mark, Well put, that describes Hill perfectly. And yes I agree it is always harder to stay at the top ... Pete | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 346 Registered: 7-2002 |
Andy, Andreas I totally agree, if Hill qualified on pole he could outrun everybody due to a faster car and an ability to put in consistent laps, what he didn't have was any 'racecraft' put him in a real racing situation and he failed everytime | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 233 Registered: 6-2003 |
I guess there is only one guy under pressure here, the defending Champ. Its a lot more pressure to be on the top and easy for others to attack, they have everything to gain and not as much to lose. It is also more challenging to be looking in mirror and visor while racing than thru the visor only, so of course more mistakes are likely while leading the racing, eh? IF Montoya ever gets a WC (he prob will), we will see how he responds. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 2209 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think PSK pretty much summed it up nicely. Montoya, like Kimi has icewater running through his nervous system. I don't think anything bothers these guys. But they do make mistakes. Bottom line: It could go either way. Who knows. Hill should just shut up and go home. He was lucky to get that one WC. Glorified test driver that he was. He was fast, when out alone in front. But no w2w racer at all. | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 283 Registered: 3-2003 |
Did Hill have balls? I thought he won the championship because he was driving a Williams when everyone else had lesser cars. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1408 Registered: 1-2002 |
As if Hill has got room to talk. Where's he lately? It's just the press taking sound bites that are "controvesial" or "interesting." Bollocks. If MS "cracks under pressure" Montoya would have got by the 4 times that they went w2w at monza, or the previous time they've fought for position, and what about Kimi and MS in France; as I recall , MS took the "lawnmower" route to get around Kimi. Blah blah blah... none of us here have got the balls that MS has, and neither does Hill (anymore); anyone here taken the 130 R at suzuka at WOT? Didn't think so. Why not leave the bench racing at home. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 950 Registered: 11-2002 |
I agree with Damon, under certain pressure situations MS cracks. That is why it is important that he keeps the lead of the WC ... seems to help him with the pressure. MS is not rock solid, remember '94 (lost the car when in the lead), remember the Jeres ('97 or '98) incident ... car was fine MS lost composure and that is why his lap times dropped and JV caught him. Remember the stalls at Japan against MH, blamed on overheated switch or something ... but in one very clear case MS ran the warm up lap way to fast and MH very cleverly went very slow so that MS had to sit on the grid for ages. MS should have seen this in his mirrors and slowed also ... but he was nervous and wanted to get on with the race. MS is fantastic but like all humans is not perfect. Pete | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 813 Registered: 2-2001 |
What ever. Schumacher is rock solid under pressure. And thats big talk coming from Hill and his 1 WC and how ever many wins he has which I know isn't close to Schumachers 69. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 221 Registered: 6-2003 |
"It's a long time since we've seen Michael under pressure like this on a regular basis. Michael is clearly wary of Montoya. He knows he's a tough fighter. And that's where Michael can show his Achilles heel, when he's under pressure. If he feels as though he's becoming the prey, then he gets ragged." -- Damon Hill, 1996 World Champion, predicting why he thinks Juan Pablo Montoya will edge Michael Schumacher for the World Championship | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 243 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hubert, I hear you. Best wishes on improvement of your times at the track. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1335 Registered: 1-2002 |
andy; no prob. to be honest, i try not to participate on questions like these because it's too flawed w/ speculation to be of any use, and detracts from my own track time... need to get out from in front of this screen... see you guys around. | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 241 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hubert, with all due respect to your research, numbers might not lie, but they don't tell the truth like results do. Michael has been out- driven by Rubens every race since Montreal. He's been losing points position each race as well. I doubt that's his strategy for winning the championship. At the pace he's been going, he should lose the championship by a minimum of five points. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1327 Registered: 1-2002 |
Andreas: >>So Michael probably was not driving around with a problem. Yes, he has a championship at stake, but c'mon: What is he trying to save here? One point? Take a risk, buddy!<< Do you play pool (i.e., billards)? If you do, which do you prefer; block the other guy's shot, or do for the hail mary and risk scratching ? Also, for those of you doubting MS and how he could possibly be outpaced by RB, well, take a look at this months F1 mag.; there's published telemettry on MS v. RB , and guess what, MS is --on average-- 15kph quikcer on entry and exit -- or about 2/10's of a second quicker -- than RB around the same bend. The numbers don't lie. -hubert | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member Username: Wax Post Number: 213 Registered: 7-2003 |
"...Ferrari fumbled the fuel calculation and Michael run dry" Thus explaining the 3rd pit stop... - 50K lb/ft/deg. - Wow - When all is said and done, The explanations and quotes presented seem palpable. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 169 Registered: 6-2003 |
Andreas, maybe MS is playing the 'rope a dope' strategy! (I think its well proven he can outdrive anyone in the field.) By letting the challenger (Montoya/Williams) take all the risks, he is making them dethrone him (if they can). I predict he and Ruebens will run lights out at Monza and Indy and make us all proud. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1988 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jim, the commentators from speed mentioned Michael was driving around a problem and the fact, that they had to restart the engine at his pitstop pointed that way (they thought it was a shift problem, electronic or hydraulic). However we learnt later, that Ferrari just fumbled the fuel calculation and Michael run dry. Was lucky to even make it to the pits (see Frentzen also on a Ferrari engine). Allegedly one of the issues with Ferrari is, that the engine is thirstier than others, hence the longer fuel stops and the more weight at the start, making it slower and the worse qual positions. So Michael probably was not driving around with a problem. Yes, he has a championship at stake, but c'mon: What is he trying to save here? One point? Take a risk, buddy! | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 167 Registered: 6-2003 |
Maybe Micheal knows something that Ruebens doesn't! (He is nursing that car around the track.) Besides, he has a Champ'ship at stake... | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1956 Registered: 10-2002 |
Anthony, that statement sounds more like the car was a Lotus. You hit a kerb the wrong angle and the bloody thing falls apart? "If they bring a significantly different car to Monza, they had better also bring a better Schumacher. Rubens is making him look like an old man." Andy, good one. I agree, he was driving like Piquet in his last season or Patrese all his life. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 372 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here's what Ferrari have to say about the accident: "Maranello, 28th August - After an accurate analysis of the available data and after studying film of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Scuderia Ferrari has ascertained the most probable cause of Rubens Barrichello�s accident in the event. When he found himself very close to the car which preceded him, Barrichello twice hit the kerbs at an unusual angle of impact at the chicane between Turns 6 and 7. The impacts put excessive stress on the leading arm of the upper wishbone of the left rear suspension. This part then broke under heavy braking on the main straight at the start of lap 20." | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 234 Registered: 3-2003 |
It looked as if Rubens was under heavy braking prior to the failure. I would imagine the drive shaft and its attachment points would sustain more stress under acceleration than braking. My guess is suspension failure more than driveshaft failure. This sounds like the type of failure that put Luca Badoer in the hospital during early testing of the 2003GA. If they bring a significantly different car to Monza, they had better also bring a better Schumacher. Rubens is making him look like an old man. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 370 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Private testing will start once again on September 1st and the Scuderia Ferrari is impatiently waiting for that date. The Italian team has many things to test, including new tyres from Bridgestone. But the tests will not focus only on tyres. The F2003-GA will have profound changes for its home Grand Prix. A new aerodynamic package will include new front and rear wings, modified side pods, a different rear diffuser and a few other elements. The Scuderia will also introduce a new evolution of its 052 engine and a modified electronic module to improve the launch control system. All these changes are major improvements that should help increase the performance level of the F2003-GA. Like all the teams, the Scuderia will be at Monza from 2 - 4 September but will also use the Fiorano circuit and Mugello track. The four Ferrari drivers will be on duty to evaluate the package as soon as possible. A vital task for both Ferrari and Bridgestone. As for Rubens Barrichello's accident during the Hungarian Grand Prix, the Scuderia initially believed that the cause was a broken upper suspension arm but now it seems more likely that the origin may come from the differential. Ferrari should make an announcement soon about the situation." | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1954 Registered: 10-2002 |
Actually I'm quite certain they will figure this one out a lot faster. Through a friend who once delivered parts for the F1 team I know how fast and thorough Ferrari (and probably all times) will and can investigate problems like this. He had the nasty phone calls and faxes on his desk on Monday morning and it didn't take them long to find out what went wrong. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 153 Registered: 6-2003 |
Anthony, That's a great pic... I predict it will take weeks or months to determine the cause of fault, unless there is some obvious material defect or something. I guess we will all have to hold our breath at Monza. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
Member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 368 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here's quite a good picture. It still doesn't tell us if it was driveshaft or suspension failure. It could be that the suspension failed and the natural forces of a car travelling at speed will just rip-off the drive shaft.  | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 146 Registered: 6-2003 |
Geez Tazio, you hurt me! I tend to think like a fan, I'm not an engineer. When I see a car come apart like that, realizing Ruebens or Micheal could have been killed, it just scares the bejeezus out of me. I know that virtually any suspension part failure can lead to catastrophic failure. I fear there are so many probs with this car, that Schummy could lose the C'ship as a result. I think he could win it with the F2002, although I guess that could never happen. That would be just racing, but what a shame. | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Member Username: Beast Post Number: 256 Registered: 5-2003 |
One thing the engineers can do is model the structure on computers before commiting the fabricating the prototype. They can model deflection of the structure, impact forces, thermal forces and even aero modeling. With each crash they can see from the results on the real tub and start making improvements. I also feel that the failure was related to the driveshaft area. The CV joint, the shaft itself, bearing failure. Being that this was an isolated failure i doubt it will be a major issue other than testing all remaining parts involved. On speedTV.com they reported that Ferrari had not determined a cause as of yet. Hopefully they will release the cause of the failure. Rob | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
Member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 279 Registered: 9-2002 |
Actually I did not know that Steve Matchett made that observation (I was listening to the ITV coverage). With regards to monocoque rigidity, yes they are very stiff. To the tune of torsionally over 50,000 lbs/ft/degree. IE. Bolt one side to a wall and the other to a 1 ft long bar and it would take over 50,000lbs to twist the monocoque 1 degree but did you know that the carbon is laid is such a fashion as to delaminate on inpact thus maintaining shape but absorbing force. It is very very hard to compare any 2 accidents as minor degrees in impact can make huge force differences. Mechanical failures make the driver nothing more than a passenger but there is an element of luck in surviving an impact. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 924 Registered: 4-2003 |
Same speculation over here... It's the only thing I can think of... Drive shaft snapping and windmilling the suspension components... Jack | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1942 Registered: 10-2002 |
Tazio, since you asked the question: Yes, Steve Matchet from Speed actually speculated the same reason for the accident (driveshaft ripping throught the suspension). I'm always amazed about the rigidity of these monocoques. Firman and Rubens hit the barriers with 200+ km/h. When Schumi did the same trick in Silverstone he broke his leg. So there is some progress in the cars I suppose. | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
Member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 278 Registered: 9-2002 |
The design of a modern race car is infinatly more complex than the average observer will ever understand. To scrap the F2003 after one suspension failure is so far removed from logical engineering thought that it is absurd to even consider the idea. More interesting would be the determining of what actually caused the failure. Has anyone considered the possibility that it was a driveshaft or velocity joint failure that sent the driveshaft smashing through the carbon fiber suspension arms? Fourtunatly the cars are equipped with strain guages on each arm of the suspension and on the driveshafts so determining the cause of failure should be fairly easy. Not to be overly harsh Jim but I'd expect these comments from the ignorant knee jerk Italian press not a fellow Ferraristi. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 141 Registered: 6-2003 |
I am wondering if the F2003 should be scrapped after Ruebens' accident. If that was Schummy hitting the barricades like that the world would have breathed a collective 'gasp' and been in an uproar. Funny it isn't getting that much press as yet. We will see at Monza, I guess, although Schummy must be pinching a hole in his seat after watching that self-destruction. |