| Author |
Message |
Jack (Gilles27)
Intermediate Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 1430
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 5:08 pm: | |
Jon, here is what I'm not sure about, so please clarify. My understanding was that Michelin interpreted their tread width as the distance between the verticals, whereas the FIA measures across the tread surface, which is greater due to the "rounded" surface. Am I close at all?
While I don't agree with cheating, it's fun to see engineers attempting to exploit the rules. It bothered me when Ferrari was essentially running an illegal traction control, but you had to appreciate the loophole they found in the gearshift window. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 11:08 am: | |
Actually that is incorrect. Read below:
It has been argued many times that the Formula 1 regulations are loosely worded but when one considers the three different sets of rules (the FIA International Sporting Code, the FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations and the FIA Formula 1 Technical Regulations) they form a fairly bullet-proof set of rules.
Michelin and the teams involved are currently arguing that Article 77c of the FIA Sporting Regulations which states that "the tread width of the front tires must not exceed 270mm" suggests that this is only applied when the tires are new.
Unfortunately this argument is defeated by an article in the Formula 1 Technical Regulations (Article 2.4) which states that automobiles "must comply with these regulations in their entirety at all times during an event". The tires are included in the definition of the word automobile.
Furthermore, Article 2.4 goes on to state that "should a competitor feel that any aspect of these regulations is unclear, clarification may be sought from the FIA Formula 1 Technical Department" which, in effect, means that if there is any doubt over the rules the FIA should have been made aware of it.
It would seem therefore that the current arguments over tires are fairly clear-cut and the teams involved must now decide what to do when they go to the Italian Grand Prix at Monza.
|
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2998
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 9:18 am: | |
Prior to last week I do not believe it was even against the rules for the tires to get wider during the race. The original tire width rule called for measurment prior to the race with no mention on the width after the race. The new rule calls for measurement after the race. That being the case, it seems to me that you can now how wider tires prior to the race as long as they lose enough width during the race to pass tech after the race. It should be interesting to see how the smart teams try to stretch the rules to gain an edge. |
rick ramage (720)
New member
Username: 720
Post Number: 50
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:52 pm: | |
i read one thing interesting put out by the FIA on september 11 (see below for the exact words). it appears that while investigating the complaint against michelin the FIA seems to have concluded that some or all of the teams using michelin tires were aware that the tread width exceeded the maximum width. i guess i'm naive, but had these teams not realized the tread got wider after the tires were used then i would not think they cheated deliberately. but since the FIA seems to imply that the teams knew the maximum width was being exceeded and opted not to correct the problem until they were caught says to me that they were knowingly cheating.
A statement from the FIA said: "With hindsight it is regrettable that those using Michelin tyres did not consult the FIA about possible excess tread width as soon as they became aware of it. However, as far as the FIA technical department is concerned, the matter is now closed and the championship can continue with all teams on an equal footing." |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 1390
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 7:29 pm: | |
gage: per the fia rulebook:
>>"tread width must not exceed 270mm ". This measurement has been taken by the FIA on new tyres, as stated in the FIA Sporting Regulations article 77)C.<<
|
Michael Yurinko (Gage)
Junior Member
Username: Gage
Post Number: 82
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 7:24 pm: | |
I thought it was just the contact patch width that was regulated? |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 1389
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
michelin was cheating. plain and simple. and they got caught. the rule states that the tire may not exceed a given width; michlin's interpertation was that as long as the static dimension (before the race) complied, what happened dynamically during the race was moot. apparently, the fia doesn't see it that way; further, if michelin felt that the ruling was unjust, why not protest? simple, b/c they new that what they were doing was illegal. you can't fault them for the ingenuity, but everyone knows that a tire, in a "spec series," should never exceed the ruled width, ever; it's akin to them developing a tire that loses the grooves over a race b/c the rules lack an implicit statment requiring a given groove depth (which they do).
furthemore, michelin didn't have any confligrations about dropping a dime on ferrari (at monaco) when they noticed them running staggered cmpds; which isn't explicitly forbidden, but not "allowed." face it, they knew what they were doing wasn't legal ( but exploited it on the premise of semantics and a technicality), and b/c of this they didn't contest it. had they contested it, the results for all the prior races could have been called into question, and they (and their teams) faced the risk of points penalties. anything is "legal" until you get caught. |
Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member
Username: Ferruccio
Post Number: 190
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 6:47 pm: | |
I am the biggest Ferrari fan ever but don't think that BMW did anything wrong. Part of F1 is getting your car as fast as possible while staying withen the rules. If you want nascar (which I call wwf racing) who does everything for the fans (to make a close race) and doesn't care if they step on race purity go ahead. F1 is the most amazing and pure form of racing. Part of the downside of pure racing is that someone from time to time beats the rules. That doesn't mean we should change the rules in the middle of a season. |
Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi12
Post Number: 2140
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:24 am: | |
Good writing Jon.
I couldn't agree more and don't get the BMW fans crying wolf (nor do I understand Patrick Head, whom otherwise I admire for his genius). I think the reporters on Speed described it best by saying, that Michelin got caught cheating and immediately made up for it with new tires. If they had not felt guilty, they would have tried to stop the new rule and use the old tires.
As Matchet said, Ferrari did what's right in the Machiavellian world of F1: You fire your missile when you need it. Now was the time. Just like Mc Laren, who knew about the Ferrari barge boards and waited until it was helpful (although the decision turned out eventually against them). |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 991
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 10:31 pm: | |
I posted this on the BMW Roadfly forum. Thought you guys might find it interesting. Many (not all) of the BMW fans are stil steaming about the tire debate.
Here was my response to them:
Geez !!! All my Ferrari buddies are steamed because they think the Michelin runners have been cheating for half the season and all my BMW friends are all crying and whining about a Ferrari conspiracy.
Don't you know anything about racing and technical regulations. Just like all the loopholes in the US tax system which accountants exploit until the IRS catches them and tells them to desist so to does this happend in racing.
Read any technicial specifications rules or sporting rules for SCCA, Grand Am, FIA, F1, ALMS, CART, Irl you name it and there are gray areas that can be exploited. Some are obvious and are clarified right away others are very arcane and stuck on page 500 at the back of the book.
Every team in every form of racing has enginees and editors looking to gain an advantage from a badly written (or not written at all) rule.
Look at SCCA Speed Touring and GT this season at Lime Rock where BMW used different size wheels in the rain. No rule about it so they exploited it and won. Other's complained and the rule was clarified and rewritten.
That is what Michelin did and Ferrari caught them and brought it to the attention of the FIA.
Berger said he would have done the same, Ron Dennis the biggest complainer and cry baby on pit lane said practically nothing and Michelin said they would have done the same.
Get over it, it's racing....everyone is looking to get an edge and exploit the rules. There is no such thing as a perfect rule book with only black and white issues.
I own one of each (BMW and F car) and root equally for both so can be a bit more objective than Ferrari and BMW fans.
On the flip side I could argue that FIA pulled a NASCAR by mandating these new stupid qualifying rules where the Championship leader has to go out first in Friday qualifying and sweep the dirt of the track for the backmarkers.
Or how bout' the new points system that allows one driver with 5 WINS to lead the next closest competitor by a measly 3 POINTS who has only TWO WINS.
That's totally stupid. Case in point Montoya nearly lapped the entire field at Hockenheim. He won by over a minute and only three other cars were on the lead lap. Mr. "This is my Year" David Coulthard went for a Sunday afternoon drive and finished second with Montoya right behind him in first. He nearly got lapped!
Montoya got an EXTRA 2 points for the best race of his career, and possibly the most dominant win this year. Why should DC get 8 points for merely avoiding the first corner incident because he qualified at the back of the grid.
That my friend is called FIA engineering for maximum fan entertainment. It works both ways!
F1 has never been about entertaining fans. You want that go watch IRL (not a knock against IRL as it is genuine entertainment).
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
1988 BMW M5 Club Racer #44
1998 Spec Racer Ford #6
|