| Author | Message | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 986 Registered: 11-2002 |
TomD, McLaren have always had team orders ... but Williams over the years have lost WC many times due to 'apparently' no team orders. Remember Mansell and Piquet fighting each other, etc. Pete | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4374 Registered: 9-2001 |
I love how people say that Williams and Mclaren have no team orders. I say BS. Your telling me that if MS blows his engine at the start in Japan and DC is leading the race with one lap to go and KIMI in second that he's not going to be letting Kimi by? BS. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 459 Registered: 7-2003 |
"FIA's in their back pocket" Could anyone provide a modicum of proof to that allegation? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 982 Registered: 11-2002 |
James, Yep good on Williams raising their game NEAR the middle to the end of the season ... pitty they did not start with this pace. One thing you can always guarantee is that Williams are trying hard ... suggest (if you haven't already) that you ready Frank William's biography! Stop with the FIA in the back pocket BS though James. Remember that the FIA changed the game rules JUST to stop Ferrari winning ... they never did this when McLaren and Williams were winning every race and championship in the 80's and 90's. If the FIA were fair to Ferrari, Ferrari would probably have won like they did last year (except for the bad luck problems with the first couple of races). So just put it all in perspective and you will agree that the FIA have done everything in their power to stop Ferrari and MS winning, except banning them competing ... funny how they did not do this when English teams were winning. Funny how Ferrari were not protesting McLaren and Williams winning all the time, but when the boot is on the other foot ... the English teams (not Williams I believe) do what the English do best and start moaning that life is not fair. Ron Dennis, I believe gives personal favours (what sort ... you can use your imagination here  ) to the FIA members because he spends more time protesting than anybody else in the world. Pete ps: Yes good point about MS not been squeaky clean. I think though that MS has pulled off more succesful passes than Montoya ... but I might be wrong | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
Junior Member Username: Aventino Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2003 |
Pete, MS ain't exactly squeaky clean either. My point is the racing would be pretty boring without the Williams and their BMWs. Or the Mclarens for that matter. Ferrari will win this season, the FIA's in their back pocket. But good on Williams, they put up a good fight with plenty of development throughout the season and no team orders. The moral victors IMHO. With Montoya earning 1/15th (?) what MS gets does that make him a bargain. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 981 Registered: 11-2002 |
The one thing that that photo shows which is interesting is that it is a WAVED yellow flag. If my memory (or the flag rules) is correct this should cause the previous flag point to put out a stationary yellow flag ... thus MS and Panis were under yellow flag conditions. The part that makes the pass legal IS: MS and Panis had already passed the point that would then put out a stationary yello flag ... thus how could they possibly see that, thus the FIRST yellow flag they could possibly see is the waved yellow flag shown in the picture. As the picture shows MS has passed Panis ... thus case closed. 100% legal, lets please move on. As for Montoya, he got what he deservered ... remember how he pushed MS OFF the track once before and everybody thought that was so exciting and such great racing, er, NO, NO, NO ... passing somebody does not involve actually PUSHING somebody off the track!!!! Again I have yet to see Montoya demonstrate this ability that some talk about ... except for some pole positions! Pete | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1488 Registered: 1-2002 |
Frank: have you EVER attended a drivers meeting? Had a steward call you in for a "talk?" Or, have you ever been on a track with a local yellow? Do you know what a "meatball" flag means? What about the difference b/w a rolled black flag and a unfurled black flag? What do you do, during a session, when there's a standing yellow? If you don't know, then really, you can't have an opinion. As far as Montoya. Jon is 100% correct. It is , always, without reprie, the responsibility of the overtaking driver to make a clean pass... which includes making the call regarding weather or not the driver ahead is aware of you; there have been instances where a driver simply was unaware of the car behind, and caused a collision due to negligence, but those are rare -- in an open passing environment. You really should come out, and see what it's like to pass someone, at speed; as, those giantically wide tracks become railroad track slender, really quickly. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1091 Registered: 8-2001 |
Frank, I know you do a ton of track events so you must be familiar with flag proceedures. The flag issue is not a judgement call END OF STORY THERE! As for the Montoya incident, that is a judgement call and my opinion is that if it had been a Minardi, Jaguar, Toyota or other non-championship contender they may have let it slide but it was a Ferrari battling for the constructors championship and they made the call. I root for both teams as I race both a BMW and a Ferrari. I have watched the replay a dozen times and unfortunetally the Speed Channel feed didn't give a good angle on the incident but it appears that JPM was given enough room on the corner but the car started to push when he hit the inside curbing. FIA rules state that racing room must be given (though again this is a huge judgement call on what constitutes racing room). However if you make the pass it's your responsibility to complete the pass safely. JPM didn't do that ! He got the corner wrong, lost grip, and exceeded outside his area of racing room. Regards, Jon | ||
| Gil Lucero (Exotic_car_guy)
New member Username: Exotic_car_guy Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2003 |
Report from itv.com... PHOTO EVIDENCE CLEARS SCHUEY Last Updated: Thursday, 02 October , 2003, 14:30  Michael Schumacher HAD passed Olivier Panis before the yellow flag zone at Indy on Sunday. The world champion came close to receiving a drive-through penalty after overtaking Panis' Toyota just fractions of a second before they came across a yellow flag. The stewards did not take any action and new photographic evidence proves they were right not to do - but not by much. Our picture above shows that Schumacher had his nose in front of Panis by the time they arrived at the first yellow flag (click on the image to enlarge). The picture should clear up the controversy over the fact that Schumacher went unpunished while title rival Juan Pablo Montoya was given a penalty for his clash with Rubens Barrichello. ITVF1�s James Allen though points to the bigger picture of the decision � the fact that the championship standings could have had a totally different look had Schumacher been penalised. He said: �I know that McLaren looked very closely at the tapes to see whether Schumacher passed Olivier Panis before they reached the yellow flag zone in turn one early on. �The stewards never informed us during the race that the incident was under investigation. �It was one of those finely balanced calls � a bit like a soccer referee blowing for a penalty in the World Cup final � on which a championship could have hinged.� | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3026 Registered: 9-2001 |
Just like the Montoya incident, the stewarts are clearly pro-Ferrari. | ||
| Byron Faber (Adrenln328)
New member Username: Adrenln328 Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2003 |
Love the Cluepon. A bit harsh, but funnnnnny! | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Intermediate Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 1111 Registered: 4-2003 |
I also posted about this in the other Indy Thread because I saw only one (head-on) shot of the situation which was pretty unclear but it's clear enough now... No overtaking in a "yellow flag zone". Whatever you do before or after is legal. The aerial shot (which I haven't seen myself) seems to show he got by before "entering the yellow flag zone". End of story. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 427 Registered: 7-2003 |
Crikey. What's to debate? Legal pass. No favoritism. Case closed. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 302 Registered: 6-2003 |
The Speed channel tape doesn't show a yellow at the start/finish line before the pass. It shows only the pit side of the track as it focuses on MS coming up the track. Not that it matters in this debate, but I think F1 cars 'lunge' past, not quick like CART or IRL cars, so MS started this pass way before the start line anyway, and clearly was ahead at the flag before the corner. MS said in post race interview that he passed before the yellow. Its a nonissue unless someone challenges, eh? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1081 Registered: 8-2001 |
Mark, The yellow flag is used at the corner station directly preceeding the incident. RB's incident happened in turn 2 and the nearest corner station is in turn 1. You do not put out yellow flags at consecutive stations unless there are two incidents or a full course yellow. You guys are making way too much over this. The rule is simple.... You see a yellow flag ahead at the corner and you can't pass in that corner or until you see the next flag station (or track marshall) without a yellow flag or holding a green flag. You can race down the straight to the yellow and pass the car in front or beside as long as the pass is completed before you get to the turn. Sometimes it's a judgment call about what consitutes a complete pass, but in this case Schumacher was along side the Toyota (or whatever car it was) half way down the striaght and was completely by him by the time the entered the braking zone. Regards, Jon | ||
| Mark Langfield (Ferrari_co_uk)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_co_uk Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2003 |
There would be a stationary yellow ahead of a waved yellow section, I presume the start/finish line would be the previous post to the first corner post?? I mentioned this because I think I saw this the following lap but I haven't got a tape of the race to check (this could have just been brought out that lap if marshalls were tending to RB's car) Just curious. Best Mark | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1077 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ron Dennis even looked at the tape and said he was not going to contest it. No we know it was legal if cry baby Ronnie says it's ok. There would never be a waiving yellow at start finish unless something (i.e. wrecked car) was on the main straight. End of story. Regards, Jon | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2918 Registered: 1-2002 |
There was NO double yellow. Only a single yellow. Therefore, passing is legal up to the point of that single yellow...and that is exactly what occurred. I can't believe we are still debating this!!!!  | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 783 Registered: 4-2002 |
You are not under yellow until you pass by a yellow that is being displayed. Until you pass one that is being displayed, you race. Asking racers to look in the 'rear view' for a yellow is beyond reason. | ||
| Paul Bennett (Paul_308)
New member Username: Paul_308 Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2002 |
One think is obvious to me...MS knows the rules inside and out. The incident where he had the trackworkers push his car back onto the track so he could resume the race and ending on the podium, pretty much confirmed his rule knowledge to me. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 974 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mark,
That is a very, very good point ... does anybody know? Pete | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 192 Registered: 2-2002 |
PSK and everyone else. Thanks for the information on the yellow flag. I did not realize you could pass prior to the yellow. This makes sense. Just glad he won. Drew | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 347 Registered: 5-2003 |
The real irony would be if Michael wore down his intermediate tires enough that the "tread" was too wide when they came off the car. | ||
| Mark Langfield (Ferrari_co_uk)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_co_uk Post Number: 90 Registered: 4-2003 |
Was there not a stationary yellow at the start finish line though... With double waved yellows at turn one there should have been. This would have made the move illegal. Best Mark | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1069 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thus you can pass driving towards a yello flag ... just not after. PSK is exactly right. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 www.flatoutracing.net | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 966 Registered: 11-2002 |
Some of you do not know the rules of a Yellow flag. The yellow flag ALLOWS you to pass up to the position of the yellow flag ... but not AFTER the yellow flag UNTIL a green flag is shown. Thus you can pass driving towards a yello flag ... just not after. Take a flag marchelling course and learn the rules. MS's pass was 100% legal. Remember how the yellow flag works. The person in charge of the yellow flag does not even look UP the track, they have to look past their flag point towards the next point. If an accident occurs between the points they wave (or show) the flag. If there is a double waved yellow at the flag point downstream then you wave a single yellow ... I know, my father was chief flag marchell for most (if not all of my early to teenage years) and used to find the yellow flag boring to do as you were not able to watch the racing like the blue flag guy ... plus you always had your back to the racing (which is why the blue flag guy has to face the yellow flag guy, ie. to warn him/her if he/she needs to save themselves). MS's pass was 100% legal ... leave this subject alone, and buy a rule book! (even Brundle in his commentory said it was legal). Pete ps: And stop with MS getting all the good luck crap ... remember the early part of the race, the weather went against him then. You do not win 5 WC's on good luck! | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2907 Registered: 1-2002 |
Just watched it again on the rebroadcast. MS was CLEARLY by Panis well before the yellow flag's location. Clean pass. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1460 Registered: 1-2002 |
Clout. It seems to intimidate. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2906 Registered: 1-2002 |
You're right, Hubert. Strange, isn't it? But I guess that's the case with any long-time winner. Perhaps Senna or Prost dealt with the same nonsense. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1459 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>No black flag necessary. Pass was legal. Watch the rebroadcast & pay attention to the aerial view. He was clearly by.<< That's what I'm saying.. everyone seems to believe that MS has some clandestine agreement with the FIA... | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2901 Registered: 1-2002 |
No black flag necessary. Pass was legal. Watch the rebroadcast & pay attention to the aerial view. He was clearly by. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1458 Registered: 1-2002 |
>> I'm a big Tifosi, but admittedly, not a Schumi fan. With that disclaimer, it ASTOUNDS me what he can get away with. Any one else makes that move and they'd get slammed before the next lap was run. Someday it will catch up to him.<< W / all due respect, how is it HIS fault (as an individual)? Since MS has made Ferrari into the F1 monument that it seems to be, why is it his fault if the race stewards are too , allegedly, chicken sh!t to throw him a black flag????? | ||
| les brun (Labcars)
Junior Member Username: Labcars Post Number: 180 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm a big Tifosi, but admittedly, not a Schumi fan. With that disclaimer, it ASTOUNDS me what he can get away with. Any one else makes that move and they'd get slammed before the next lap was run. Someday it will catch up to him. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 643 Registered: 3-2001 |
From the Post race interview: Q: I believe my colleagues upstairs are talking about a potential moment when you overtook under the yellow flag, when Barrichello was off the circuit. Do you know anything about that? MS: I know I have overtaken Panis, but well before the yellow flag started. I knew where the yellow flag started. I was by by that time. Just meant that the nose was in front, so it was, so no problem. Braked early enough and was safe for the accident. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2900 Registered: 1-2002 |
As I saw it, MS got his nose & front wheels past the other car BEFORE reaching the flag stand displaying the yellow...which makes it legal, I believe. I think MS may have more trouble with his rear rain tires... | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 191 Registered: 2-2002 |
Do you guys think Wiliams and McLaren will file a protest with the FIA USGP stewarts that Schumaucher passed in Turn 1 under the yellow just after Barachello spun? If so and verified, what is an appropriate penality; loss of 1 position? I am a Ferrari fan and don't want to throw water over this victory but as contenious as things are in F1 I am a little worried about this. Regards, Drew Altemara |