| Author | Message | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2002 |
> The thought being he wants at least one win from every track > before he calls it quits. Just food for thought. Damn... didn't think of that... Ferrari should've definitely not given those orders... in fact, they should be cleverly making sure he never wins in Austria.  | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 609 Registered: 1-2001 |
Someone also mentioned that MS had never won before on this circuit. The thought being he wants at least one win from every track before he calls it quits. Just food for thought. -Ben | ||
| John Moretti (Moretti)
New member Username: Moretti Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2001 |
Jon, I agree with 50% of what you say, but when you mention Irvine in the same breathe as RB I think you are comparing a Ferrari to a FIAT. RB is just a good a driver as MS FOR SHORT PERIODS OF TIME but at this stage doesn't appear to have the consistency OR backing from Ferrari he needs to win the championship. Irvine was so bad he had to be given a GP win by Mika Salo!!!!, who had only been driving the car for a few weeks!! Irvine is so bad that I think he will be instrumental in Ford giving F1 away inside 2 years and Jaguar going back to making the horrible cars they make. RB was my pinup boy 2 years ago but his infernal whining irked me big time, but he has had an incredible change of attitude that is to be lauded no matter how much money he is getting and I think he deserves the wins that come his way and he wont have MS handing them to him. Ive never liked Senna, Prost, Alesi or Schu for their attitude but have admired their driving skills (I personally would not have liked to be on the track with any of these car thugs as I consider them too dangerous to life and limb). JV is a danger no matter where he is (track or road or water) and I think he has a death wish. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 88 Registered: 3-2002 |
Although I disagree with the Ferrari decision... I'd be padding RB's points to get a 1-2 victory... I do NOT agree with many of the other comments in this thread... It is a TEAM sport. I like that. And in TEAM sports, its not just about individual winning... its about TEAM winning. I don't think they should outlaw that or change that... it would just mean the teams would have to "hide" their team behavior. As everyone has said, they could've easily produced the same results by simply pumping 3 more seconds of fuel into RB's car on the last pit stop or ordering RB to slow down a tad. Then everyone would have thought MS just so much better than RB. What good is that? I'd rather everyone know I kicked ass and then made a sacrifice for the team than having to quietly drive lousy and have everyone think I suck!! Note that I had no problem when the same thing happened last season... in that situation, it was for the good of the team. In this situation, I think it was *not* for the good of the *team*, just for the good of *MS*. Given the situation right now, I think Ferrari should be shooting for the big win (1-2 Drivers Championship), not just avoiding losing. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2001 |
First things, first. Ferrari originally didn't race so they could sell more cars, they sold cars (road cars) so they could race. Enzo didn't even like most of the wealthy people that bought his cars calling them "shallow and empty". He lived to do one thing build winning race cars. Ferrari's goal is to win the Championship and the sooner they can achieve that goal the better. Reubens is a nice guy and talented racer and I do feel somewhat sorry for him but the bottom line is that he is the number 2 driver and that is what he is getting paid for. Don't get me wrong he has world champion caliber talent but will never be one. To win the Championship at this level takes extreme confidence (most call it extreme arrogance or cockyness) and Reubens does not posses this. How else can you explain a driver agreeing to sign on as a number 2 and in the process admitting that he is of lesser skill. We all know Eddie Irvine was not even close to Schumacher's caliber but you would never hear him say that Michael is better or that Eddie had no chance of winning the championship. He doesn't think that way and neither do most other F1 drivers. Can you imagine Prost being asked to move over for Senna. He would have not only refused to move over I think either Senna or Prost would have been so infuriated that they would have taken out the their teamate at the last corner just to make a statement to management. BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: Schumacher made Ferrari what they are today. He brought the team together, brought in the personel and scolded the team when they made mistakes (and took the blame when he made mistakes). Ferrari was an also-ran, has-been outfit throughout most of the late 80's and early 90's trying to do battle on reputation and producing cars that were terrible. Alan Prost remarked that he couldd've have driven a French lorry faster around Mugello than his Ferrari. Alesi termed his Ferrari a "tank" that Mussolini would have been proud of but that no then current F1 driver would want to drive. Ferrari's two championships are team efforts and we can't just say Schumacher did it with his driving, but one thing is for certain, he built the "TEAM" foundation that allowed him to use hius superior skills to get Ferrari back to where they belonged after 20+ years. Rubens knows why Ferrari kept him and Ferrari knows why they signed him. He will gladly accept number 2 to drive fo the prancing horse and drive a superior car. Eddie Irvine would'nt do it, and neither would any of the other young guns who are up and coming stars in F1. Ruebens chose his fate and must live with it. Ferrari made the right decision. In the end if we win the championship there willbe other opportunites for Schumacher to move over for Reubens and return the favor. My 2 cents worth. Jon | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2001 |
Michael was not allowed to "race". Team orders were in effect for the whole race. This means that Michael and Reubens were not allowed to race each other. They were instructed to be careful with backmarkers and in passing other cars, to go light on the brakes, and so on. The drivers really are at the mercy of team instructions for all sorts of things. There is no guarantee that Rubens would have stayed in front if Michael had been allowed to race with him the entire race. After all, when it was clear that Rubens would be pulling over, and Michael was therefore free to catch up to make that pass, Michael set the fastest lap of the race (and track record). He may have been capable of putting in 50 laps at that pace for all we know and been able to pass Rubens. So it is a bit wrong to say that Rubens controlled the race and the only reason he didn't win was the team orders. To the contrary, the team orders were quite possibly what kept him in 1st until the last corner. -Rich | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
New member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'm a bit pissed (thats mad in the USA) ath the MS win. I think that the best thing possible for the sport of F1 at this time, is for the FIA to disqualify both ferrari drivers for this kind of antic, and make it clear that this kind of antic will never be tollerated again. By removing points from both drivers, FIA would be anouncing than niether the drivers championship, nor the constructors championship is up for manipulation by the teams--the cars and drivers have to race for them. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2002 |
I also was dumbfounded by the decision. We don't have privy to all the information that goes into the decision making that Montezemelo does. There could be sponsorship issues at stake... but I can't see how having the whole world pissed off at Ferrari is any good for it's sponsors. This is destined to become a classic long-lived blunder in the world of Ferrari and F1. I can't believe they'd make this mistake, as Ferrari corporate is a renown political atmosphere. I can just hear the phone conversation between Montezemelo and Mr. Angelli... | ||
| chris (Wrench_turner)
New member Username: Wrench_turner Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think that David Coulthard makes an interesting point about this: I don't think what happened makes a mockery of the sport because that is its contractual business," said the Scot. "The fundamental question though is: 'is this good for the sport?' "Clearly by the crowd's reaction they made their opinion on that quite strongly. We are a public sport and without the support of the public then the sport will suddenly start going downhill... "You have got to take more pleasure out of winning a race straight. I have not had the success Michael has had, but the wins I have had to work for have been the most pleasurable. "That's what we are here for: we want to have the battle, the struggle. We don't just want to turn up and someone give you the ten points. After a while it would just be boring." Coulthard handed victory in the 1998 Australian Grand Prix to team mate Mika Hakkinen after they had agreed a pre-race pact that the driver who was ahead at the first corner would be handed the triumph. "I didn't get out and say I wasn't happy. I got out and explained what had happened," he remarked. " "Of course I wasn't happy, but that is the contract I had. Rubens is a grown man who signs a contract that obviously puts him in that situation and you can't argue with that. "The public has to understand that F1� is a bit like the Tour de France, where there is a team leader and all the other guys are there to help him. He is Miguel Indurain, not the great champion people thought he was because he had ten people there to help him. "Would (David) Beckham be able to win a football match without ten other guys on the pitch? Of course not. "A driver can only win a championship with a team's support. A lot of teams put more importance on the constructors' championship rather than the drivers'. But the driver is the name that will also be remembered, it will always be a footnote what the car was. "Maybe the teams should have to declare their contracts to the public because I know people bet on Formula One�. But the public has to understand the politics of the sport - there is a range of issues, but they have been there since Fangio's day. "Then someone would stop and get out of the car, and give Fangio his car to go and race. Nothing has fundamentally changed, but F1 has such a higher profile now." | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
New member Username: Drewa Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2002 |
I read on Formula1.com this morning that Ferrari is to appear before the Wolrd Motorsports Council on June 26 presumable to answer questions regarding this incident. Do people think this will just be a slap on the wrist or could they envoke a penality? | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2001 |
The last thing F1 is ...is a team sport. Its the MS sport and Ferrari should just go to one driver. Complete joke. Actually it will be nice to see someone else challenge and beat Ferrari a couple times this year. I nearly went back to bed after the start. This is almost as boring as most other forms of racing. Dominance is a good thing up to a certain point. Throw in the absurd ending to this race via the "team orders " bullsh--, and you have worthless programming. I dont think I will make much of an effort the rest of the season to haul my self out of bed at 630central time to watch this. Not only do they need to get the costs down, they need to make sure racing occurs and not "team orders". No thanks F1, Ive got better things to do on a early Sunday morning. Whoever stated Ferrari was afraid to lose has it right. This was a team of cowards this weekend. Not winners. The $$bucks are in and the PASSION is gone. | ||
| Warren Dodge (Spiderman)
New member Username: Spiderman Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2001 |
RB is under a new contract. I'm sure he was honoring it when he pulled over and let MS win. Once MS wraps up the title, I think he will do the same for RB when the opportunity presents itself. | ||
| John Moretti (Moretti)
New member Username: Moretti Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2001 |
sanctimony reigns supreme!!!! McLaren did this in 98, Fangio took Collins car in the 50s, Senna drove Prost off the track , etc, etc etc. Just becuase ferrari does it everyone wants a piece of them!! Get a life, Ruby was a gracious person in the interviews and I have swung back to him both as a person AND a driver, he was really ticking me off last year when he kept whining all the time when he really didn't have any reason for it whereas this year I think he does but his attitude is beautiful and positive in a really good way, not the sales/marketing BS we get use to. MS was embarrassed, Todt was in hiding and the English press went into their overdrive mode for the morons that they are! BTW I had a $100 on Ruby for the race so I was mildly ticked he "lost" | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 87 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have a bit different point of view... I find Ferrari's move today to be that of someone scared to lose rather than of a winner. If Ferrari had the confidence and drive of a winner, it wouldn't just be trying to get MS the Drivers' Championship, it would be *also* trying to get Rubens #2 in the season championship points! Now that would be a victory of victories! MS and RB 1-2 for the SEASON. And if that was their goal, given the huge lead MS has, they'd be padding RB's numbers (making up for the lousy mechanical problems RB has suffered)! Instead, Ferrari acted like someone scared to lose... they've got a huge lead, but sure... if MS's cars start breaking like RB's have been... in a couple months MS's lead could easily be gone. I like a team that goes for the win... not a team that plays it safe, avoiding a loss. I don't think I'll be wearing red tomorrow. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 456 Registered: 2-2001 |
All pro sports are a business. That is why the big stars like Montana, Aikman, Unitas etc. etc. get cut. No one feels good about it but that fact is younger talent comes along and the old have to go as much as we hate to see it. It will always be that way. Ferrari races to win world championships. Always has and hopefully always will. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 455 Registered: 2-2001 |
YES Rubins did win, everyone knows it even Michael. It happened last year it will happen again and other teams would do it also. Years ago Senna purposly knocked Prost out of the race to secure the championship but everyone loves Senna(and rightfully so). Rubens is out of the hunt. Give the points to the team, everyone would be crying at the end of the year if Michael lost by 3 points to Juan of Ralf. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 1582 Registered: 12-2000 |
Reality is it's a business. I wish it wasn't and the best driver would always win. I think this will actually make Ferrari look worse and not better. What gain did Ferrari get? I don't think even Ferrari could predict how they would get booed. | ||
| Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
Junior Member Username: Srandrsn Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2001 |
Even finishing second at the rate things are going MS will clinch the title with like 5 races left on the schedule...then what...he parades around behind Rubens and lets Rubens win the final 5 races?? All those wins would then be tainted as well as or more than the win by MS today. I can see why they did it, but just because you can do it...doesn't me you should. Very poor tactics  | ||
| Charles Gault (Knox_charles)
Junior Member Username: Knox_charles Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2001 |
Racing a team sport, B/S ! The DRIVER takes all the real risks. All the team risks are the ordinary business risks. I thought Ferrari raced because of a PASSION for racing. What a real pity. Rubins won, Ferrari Inc. LOST. | ||
| C. Smith (Italianauto)
Junior Member Username: Italianauto Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2001 |
A huge public relations screwup for Ferrari....the spiteful reaction of the crowd tells the story. I think we lost millions of Ferrari fans today. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 360 Registered: 10-2001 |
I'll say it again, Schumi didn't have to pass Rubens! What were they gonna do? Fire Michael for not passing? Come on, the team directors are to blame but don't forget Michael had a choice and he made it! Rubens showed a great amount of dignity throughout this. I watched the Italian press interview with him and he basically said "Everyone knows who won the race and let's leave it at that" Bravo Rubens! BTW Rubens speaks great Italian! | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 165 Registered: 2-2002 |
So, Fred, the fact that a lot of money changes hands makes it okay? Sounds like a business rather than a sport to me. And the fact that he pulled over 25 yards from the end definitely DOES mean that he didn't win. The record book will record Schumacher's name, not Barichellos. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1372 Registered: 2-2001 |
They need to permanently place an asterisk * beside Michael's name as the winner of that race. If he REALLY needed the points it would be different. No, it wouldn't. It is still wrong to win that way and I believe deep down that he doesn't want to win that way. It sucks! | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 452 Registered: 2-2001 |
It's a team sport and I think they did the right thing. Because of the bad luck Rubens has had he is really out of contention for the championship. To me the fact that he pulled over 25 yards from the finish does not mean he didn't win. He controlled the whole race. They spend a lot of money to win that championship and they need all of the points they can get. A couple of DNFs by Michael and a couple of good finishes by Montoya and all of the sudden it is a whole new ball game. I feel bad for Rubens but in the end I think they did the right thing. Bottom line Ferrari still finished 1-2! Who can be mad about that? | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 685 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am the biggest fan of MS and I was pissed that Rubens had to let him by - enough said - it was not right. what happens if MS (god forbid) is unable to race a full season - then Ferrari will be desperate for rubens to have more points. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 163 Registered: 2-2002 |
Anyone who thinks that racing is a sport is wrong. It's a business. Money rules everything, and the manufacturers have already turned racing into a giant public relations effort. If it doesn't support building the brand it doesn't count. Basically the insiders look down on fans. I learned this first hand when I became Director of Marketing for Championship Auto Racing Teams in 1983. CART was the hottest thing on the planet then, but you could already see the writing on the wall even back then. Ferrari blew it in Austria. I won't ever accept the argument that they needed the points to solidify their lead. So what? What happened to sportsmanship and fair play? Have you ever seen an Olympic runner push the person in the next lane out of the way before the starting line? Or crowd the guy in the next lane into the grass like Schumacher does every other weekend? The decision in Austria was arrogant in the extreme. They deserved the razzing they got from the fans for that decision. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 714 Registered: 1-2001 |
I didn't like it either, but I've got to side with the team's decision. What they need to do is change the rules so that the driver points for a car's finishing position are awarded to the team who then has until the next race to decide what order to award them to their drivers if they have cars in consecutive points paying positions. Let the team do the points switch off the track. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2001 |
Don't forget that Ferrari has lots the driver's championship in the last race of the year at least 3 times in recent memory, and two years in a row I think. So they are a bit paranoid. Having said that, I wish they wouldn't have made Rubens pull over! | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member Username: Manu Post Number: 237 Registered: 2-2002 |
In total agreement with you Dave. Net result - Ferrari loses out. The title at any cost???? Not like this....not when you've won 2 already. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 130 Registered: 7-2001 |
Ferrari.....is a loser this weekend. Team strategy or not. Poor judgement and execution of a ludicrous order. If its come to this, then they need to let Rubens go and just have a one man team. Frankly Rubens has been as fast if not faster than MS all year. Without the mechanical failures Rubens has suffered he could easily be in contention and in fact may be better....yes I said better than MS in the new car. This result is a joke and Ferrari is a joke today. How sad, embarrasing and ridiculous for the worlds premier F1 and sportscar maker. There is no excuse at all. MS should tell the team that its racing and he and Rubens will race. As far as the championshipis concerned second place for Ms wouldnt hurt them at all. A 1,2 Ferrari finish is a good thing whether MS or Rubens wins. Williams simply isnt going to get that much better between now and the end of the season. If MS wins the drivers title this race will spoil it and already has. I can hear the chants of 'they handed MS the title, he didnt earn it'. Ferrari doesnt need that at all. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 359 Registered: 10-2001 |
I was and I wasn't surprised. Schumi has enough of a lead that 4 points wouldn't have made a difference. If he was really that concerned over Rubens he didn't have to pass. I was embarassed at that moment. Rubens out classed Michael the whole weekend and deserved to win. Shows alot about Rubens character to go along with that decision. | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2002 |
Why would anyone be surprised by this? Rubens isn't a contender for the championship, Michael needs all the points. Rubens is basically paid to help Michael win. Now if Rubens was the points leader and Michael out of it, I would expect Michael to pull over for Rubens. Thats what team play is all about i think. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 373 Registered: 1-2001 |
I was not surprised at all-- I was absolutely sure it would happen. This is a team sport and Ferrari had to look at the bigger picture -- Michael's potential future championship. I thought it was gracefully done by letting Michael pass at the last second as well as Michael & Reubens sharing the podium and trophy. It certainly was emotional for both of them because they were wound up for the race. After all, we know who really won the race... | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member Username: Manu Post Number: 236 Registered: 2-2002 |
The commentator just said that he thought the result was JOKE. I agree. The repercussions of this race are going to be quite something. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member Username: Manu Post Number: 235 Registered: 2-2002 |
That was the most bizarre GP I've ever ever seen...... Schumi was absolutely blazed for winning and Rubens looked like he was about to cry. This is not good. I'm pissed at Ferrari for the orders. Do you think Michael was involved in the decision making. He certainly acted as if he didn't like it. A terrible smash - lucy poor Sato was OK. This thread is going to run and run I think... A a very frustrating result - was it Schumis fault or not? Should the decision have been taken for Rubens to move over - I don't thinks so... Bizarre! |