| Author | Message | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 466 Registered: 1-2002 |
jim & john- thank you for elucidating those points. regarding the limiting of power for motorbikes in europe; in the UK you need to progress stepwise from smaller bikes, to the larger bikes after passing successive 'apptitude' tests (riding and written) coupled with years liscensced to ride a motorcycle. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 390 Registered: 10-2002 |
John, again many thanks for your information. Very interesting. "Automotive manufactuers fight every claim like it was the last battle on earth." Glad to hear that as I believe everybody should be responsible for his or her actions. If somebody buys an Enzo and doesn't know, that this is a fast car, well then it might be better for mankind's gene pool if that person eliminates him/herself. Though a sad day for the Enzo. Also glad to hear, that other countries don't have that issue. But your explanations put things in perspective, so it isn't so crazy in reality on either side I suppose. You have a good point though re the senator. I agree with you, better to have to deal with this legal system than with politicians who think they have to protect us. In any case I still think the whole debate is a bit academic: As long as you allow bikers to drive around without a helmet, handing the keys to an Enzo is to me a lot less dangerous. Similar case could be made for guns etc. | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
Junior Member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hubert: Jim answered your question. The average product liability suit, taken to trial, will personally cost the plaintiff laywer over $200,000.00 on the bet that he will win. Any lawyer who brings a frivolous auto case, will go broke in a hurry. Automotive manufactuers fight every claim like it was the last battle on earth. The law in many states would value that sixteen year old kids life at 200K max. (thats pathetic in my opinion). Even if the case was a good one, who's going to place 200k worth of chips on the table (with the odds of loosing) with the up side being break even? Now, replace that kid with someone worth say 2 Billion, he buys an enzo, his dealer hands him the keys, he has no idea what he is getting into, drives out in the rain and the tranction control malfunctions, and he kills himself. Take that 2 billion, times his annual earing potential by his life expectency, and Ferrari has a new owner. Sure, in a few years the Enzos will be sold by third party car dealers. That ends much of the potential for lawsuits because it is likely that those third party car dealers, a) dont have much to loose, or b) have a small insurance policy, and are willing to take the risk. In any case they also did not manufacture the car, and dont have much to take, (making the upside for the victims lawyer unrealistic) I'm not suggesting that there is absolute liability for the factory building a monster and "handing the keys to anyone," but I can tell you there is potential exposure. My point is merely that I'd be willing to bet that the decision to "select" customers was, at least in part influenced by this potential exposure. It is correct that in Europe (and the rest of the world for that matter) the tort law, if it exists at all, is much more restrictive. Plaintiffs have little or no recourse. Instead the government takes the reins and makes restrictions. Take France for example, they limit the horsepower of motorcycles. Why? Safety. What should scares us is Demi Moore doing this, being the front story of every media medium, and some senator decides he should sponser a bill requiring speed limiters preventing cars from exceeding the speed limit. Yikes. Personally (yes I'm biased) I'd rather see our capitalistic tort system work it out. Let manufactuers be motivated by the thought that a jury can make it unprofitable to be irresponsible. I believe the hint of potential liability (at least in the US), in part, is motivating Ferrari to be responsible and select those that can drive one of these cars. | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
Junior Member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hubert: Jim answered your question. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 167 Registered: 9-2001 |
I support Ferrari's policy of "special customers" only having the option to buy an Enzo. It is no different than any other collectable company that has "special limited edition" items only available to past customers or people "in the club". My wife used to be into Precious Moments Figurines and every year they would give her the option of buying the new "Members only" piece. The Enzo is along the same philosophy. It is not exclusive if just anyone with a half million can buy it. Of course they could make many more than 399 and sell everyone, but if they limit it to the passionate few then maybe they will have a few more people that purchased 5 or 6 cars just in hopes to be on the list for the next "limited edition" car. This car is just to Fuel the passion. The liability issue may factor into this policy also. Ferrari is not a public company yet. Sure it doesn't seem fair that someone like myself that has loved Ferrari since I was a small child could not buy an Enzo even if I had the cash, but life is not always fair. | ||
| Greg Stitt (Gregstitt5)
New member Username: Gregstitt5 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2002 |
Guaranteed cash: from proven customers who have shown their reliability several times via 288, F40, F50, etc. Probably partial sum up front or previously agreed through contract (to pay for the development of the car, or to secure financing of materials, machinery, technology for development or production) This is a business, and nobody wants to revisit the Jaguar XJ220 lawsuits if the market turns sour between the drawing board and delivery. Why complain if the car is in CA�s II? Probably a mildly entertaining action-flick, and if not, the absolute minimum return is a couple of gals who are easy on the eyes and some action shots of the Enzo. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3389 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well, now that Ferrari is well known, I doubt it's value, but like I just said, it worked very well when they supported Magnum and Miami Vice. Half of us wouldn't be crazy about Ferrari, resale values would be less because of the smaller market, and also less demand for the new models. Do you think a $160k car with about equal performance as a $50k Z06 can sell without the image Ferrari has created over the years. It's hard to understand the means, but we see the end result. Now that we're there, does it need to continue? | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 387 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeff two reasons: a) If everybody sees the Enzo and ogles it, then the overall cachet of the brand gets elevated a bit. People might not run out and buy an Enzo, but maybe a more affordable 308 etc. b) Merchandising revenues. Forgot the exact numbers, but Ferrari made last year somewhere around 200 Mio through licensing its brand to Barbie Ferraris, Fila shoes etc. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2002 |
I don't understand. A car like the Enzo, in the Charlie's Angels movie - there has to be some kind of approval/support from Ferrari to get that car into that movie (unless it's a fake). What does Ferrari have to gain from that? Sales of toy Ferraris? I don't see any possibility that anyone, anywhere, is going to see that movie and say "Gee, I gotta get me one of them Ferraris", then go out and get one. I can see having the producer think it might draw more suckers into his movie to show the Enzo, but where is the benefit to Ferrari? I can see Ferrari BH wanting to get their name into the credits by supplying a car (advertising), but does a movie like that have any relationship to the real world? Does it promote anything worthwhile at all in the realm of Ferraris and Ferrari ownership? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3388 Registered: 12-2000 |
I agree that Ferrari has been doing it forever. I think Magnum and Miami Vice were the first time it was for a very wide audience though. Such a wide audience that Ferrari increased it's production to record numbers in the eighties and the value of "classic" Ferraris sky rocketed. All collectible cars received this bounce, but not all quadrupled in price. Don't get me wrong, I long for the days of vintage 250 TR's racing with the SCCA at local airport tracks, but the reason over half of us are on this board right now is because of Magnum and Miami Vice. I am and not afraid to admit it. Doesn't make me less of a Tifosi. The catalyst doesn't matter, it's your current passion level. People think my eyes are blood shot, nope, just Rossa Corsa spilling over. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 386 Registered: 10-2002 |
The US are the biggest market for Ferrari and they don't advertise. So I think having their cars in movies was always a goal. I would think that it started even long before Magnum and Miami Vice if you look at the old movies often carrying a Ferrari. I bet product placement isn't an invention from the nineties. Regarding Miami Vice: True, they didn't like the replica Daytona, that's why the factory (or FNA?) gave them a real TR instead. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rob: You'll have to explain that one. The Hollywood image of Ferrari is supported by Ferrari? That "Bod Boyz" thing included? Doesn't make sense to me. And wasn't the Miami Vice Ferrari (at least one of them) an outright fake that they took pains to outlaw? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3387 Registered: 12-2000 |
Ferrari came into it's own in America after Ferrari and Enzo himself supported Hollywood (Magnum PI and Miami Vice) for good or bad. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 400 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hubert Motorcycle dealers protect themselves by never selling to high net worth 16 year olds. That way when they kill themselves, which they often do, the salvage value of their organs often exceeds their net worth. ;) | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2002 |
Didn't someone sue a bicycle manufacturer a few years ago because there was no warning that bicycles should not be ridden after dark, and his kid got hit by a car at night? And remember the guy who lost his fingers by picking up his lawn mower to use it as a hedge trimmer? Maybe these were folk tales. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 464 Registered: 1-2002 |
john- while your argument is plausible and thorough, i'm not convinced that such 'operator liability' exists. working with your fundamental ideas of: manufacture liability in the instance of bodily harm suffered while operating said vehicle; why is it that motorcycle manufactures ( and dealers) consitently sell very, very, very (scary) fast motorcycle to consumers with either or both of the following: 1. no previous experience 2. no motorcycle liscence? i've seen this happen time and time again; 16 year old kid get daddy to buy him a gsxr1000, and a week later he's dead. now, by your clause of manufacture liability the father modes of recourse 'should' extend to suing the manufacture (for not being more discriminating), and two the dealer, but, to my knowledge, i have not heard, empirically, of such instances, and while I have, in passing, heard of people suing (or trying to) ferrari for selling 'too fast' an automobile. I am unaware of any such claims coming to fruition. have they? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 705 Registered: 1-2002 |
Damn, she looks good for 40 & 2 or 3 kids!!!  | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 384 Registered: 10-2002 |
John, thanks for that insight. Very interesting (and pathetic, but that's just my opinion). Do you know, whether similar laws exist outside the US? I'm thinking especially about some of the other major markets for Ferrari like Germany, Switzerland and some Asian countries (Japan perhaps?). As far as I know (but I'm no lawyer) such laws do not exist in Europe and hence I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrari would be less restrictive in handing out the keys. On a related note: *IF* these laws existed in Germany, wouldn't e.g. the Scuderia Rueschenberg (the German Ferrari rental place) face similar issues by handing the keys to somebody walking into the door? And finally: Based on some of the ads of Enzo's for sale, I think ultimately somebody with enough $$$ could still get one on the secondary market. Correct? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1679 Registered: 8-2002 |
A product liability lawyer...? How come i have to disagree with the one person who does this for a living...? Sheesh... John, what can i say, i stand corrected... My apologies for speaking without fully knowing & i thank you for the information- it's very enlightening... to be perfectly honest, i feel a bit like an ass...  | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
Junior Member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim: The 312 was not Bardinons, I believe it was shirely's. As of yesterday Strolls car was not sold. I heard the same rumor during the Classic. I thought it was sort of silly. Why would anyone pay 7M for a car that Stroll has been trying to sell for 4-5M for over a year? | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
Junior Member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2002 |
DES, You are entitled to your personal veiw, but your view is very different than the law. I can tell you without a doubt that Ferrari' lawyers have considered the liability associated with building this car. (I am a product liability lawyer by trade, and do a significant amount of automotive product liability cases, so I know a tad about what I am talking about.) I can tell you that any product manufactuer in the united states, especially car manufactuers, thinks about whether or not their product is dangerous. (in my personal veiw this is a good thing) I would bet anything (even my Ferrari) that this IS one of the reasons why Ferrari is being choosy of who has one of these cars. Whether you like it or not Ferrari would have liability exposure if it was irresponsible in deciding who got one of these cars. We are not talking about a desiel Mercedes, and the forseeability of Mercedes that some guy would rear end you. We are talking about a situation where Ferrari is building a 660 hp race car, and selling this to customers who they know will drive them on the street. They know that a car that can launch past the legal speed limit in less than 3 seconds, and exceed five times the legal speed limit, is far different than a normal car. Is it forseeable that this car could be dangerous if placed in the hands of my grandmother who normally drives a 110hp Mercedes desiel. Yes they know that this car is more than a handful for the average driver. Will the driver also be held to be negligent? Of course. But in the law of the US more than one person can be held liabile for an accident. And the liability exposure is tremendous. Lets not think about the exposure of the schoolbus full of kids, thats too easy. Lets just think aobu the exposure of just the driver. A big accident in this car could very likely lead to the death of the driver. If that driver is the owner of the car, he is worth a large sum of money. I'd bet that on average someone who owns one of these cars will be worth in the neighborhood of 5-10 million. Several will be worth over 100 million. If they die in this car the liability of just that one lawsuit could reach or exceed that figure. Small chance of it happening, yes. BIG problem if it does, yes. Ferrari could probably build a 1500hp automobile. They could have made this car go 250. Why didnt they? Well the reason is that the car may have been too dangerous at that speed. So this goes to show you that they are aware, as they should be that they are not building a normal car for your average driver. After Driving the Enzo, Micheal S. made a statement to the press that he hopes no one who buys one of these ever takes the traction control off. Why did he make this statement? Because he, as the factory knows that Ferrari has designed a very very powerful road car. Can a car be so powerful that it can be considered dangerous in the hands of an average driver? I'd bet the law would say yes. So, whether you agree with it or not, the factory has considered this potential liability, and I'd bet that is why they are selecting the drivers. Once they select the drivers there liability is dimisished, if not gone altoghether. If Ferrari hands the keys to this car to someone who has owned an F50, and F40, a 288GTO, maybe a 333SP, and goes out and kills himself, well that guy knows what they were doing and knows they were pushing the car. If I was their attorney, I'd advise them that handing one of these cars to just anyone would not be prudent. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 397 Registered: 10-2002 |
John You be right about that. In these times I find it amazing that anyone would sell a car like that to anyone. What about VW? The new Bug will top out at 256! Hey who's 312PB was that? Bardinon's? Did he sell his? What about 412P 0850 was it sold to someone in London for $7M? Best Jim | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1677 Registered: 8-2002 |
To answer your question, John, yes. If Joe Donuts walks in with the means to walk out with an Enzo, he should be able to. Now, personally, i don't ever want a school bus full of children to be taken out, but if that does happen, that's Joe Donuts' fault- not Ferrari. This liability issue goes with the other thread about the woman of the deceased sniper victim sueing the gun manufacturer- it's just absurd to try and place blame on Ferrari. Some wanker in a MerceDES hit me last year- i didn't call MerceDES. i see what you're saying, i just don't agree. | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
Junior Member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2002 |
I suspect that Demi is not getting an Enzo, and that is a rumour fueled by the photo. (no information either way, I just have some info. she's not getting the first one) In any event, one of the major reasons why "just anyone with the bucks" cannot buy an Enzo from the Factory is, I strongly suspect, due the the potential laibility exposure to the company. I'm sure the factory has thought of the possible problem with handing over a 660 hp road going racing car to an average pedestrian. Just think about it for a second: the factory hands the keys to this F1-like racing car to a ditsy, big-fake-titty-half-a-brain movie star who fires it up, looses control and takes out a schoolbus. While the factory may not highlight this fact, I suspect that part of the reason why the factory wants to "choose" the owners (and those owners have to have experience with Ferrari supercars) is because they know very well that this car, in the hands of an inexperienced driver, could be lethal. So DES, when you think about it, would you want just anyone with enouph dead presidents to walk in and be able to buy one? | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 381 Registered: 10-2002 |
Demi and Enzo on the beach (hey, another er film title). Nice shot. BTW it is not the first time she has wrecked 'havoc' to a F car: She stared in 'One crazy summer' in which they actually chop up a poor 308... Dunno whether that is helpful or not in the category 'customer with F history'. | ||
| Eric Vartanian (Evartanian)
Junior Member Username: Evartanian Post Number: 97 Registered: 3-2002 |
What are these people thinking...taking the car out on the sand? My God, some people... | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 88 Registered: 12-2002 |
John: You are too kind to compliment my 348. I am growing my hair out white to match it! My "Milton" reference is to the current home town, named originally as "Mill Town". I don't know who the Office Space person might be. Are you named after the misspelled Led Zeppelin song? | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 397 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jeff, Before I checked your profile I wasn't sure if you were referring to Milton from "Office Space", or the economist Milton Friedman! Great looking 348! | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2002 |
Charlie's Angels? Enzo? What a load of Hollywood horsedump! Next we'll have Barney riding around on a Ducati. Do you feel something pulling? It's Hollywood, yanking your chain. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1663 Registered: 8-2002 |
D B, those are awesome shots of the car...! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 462 Registered: 1-2002 |
arlie- i, actually, agree with your sentiments (had you read my earlier posts), you'd have seen that. i've heard it, read about, and have, myself, acknowledged the 'truth' about buying a ferrari. you're not the only one in the 'know', man. that's the whole point. | ||
| D B (Threesixty)
Junior Member Username: Threesixty Post Number: 120 Registered: 8-2002 |
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| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 690 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hubert, once again, YOU just don't get it. Just because I am smart enough to realize that the Ferrari world works as it does, that doesn't mean that I necessarily approve of it. I am not "defending the 'monarchial' discretion"; I simply acknowledge that it exists. As Mr.Spock said, "To deny the truth would be illogical." | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1658 Registered: 8-2002 |
Um, yeah... what he said... | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 461 Registered: 1-2002 |
arlie- i dont get it. you've more than once espoused your loathing of the 'demi-god' reverence that is credited to ferraris and the company itself, and now you're defending the 'monarchial' discretion applied to the means of acquisition? i don't get it, you want the cars to run, and be built like, vettes, but you want then to be sold like uncut diamonds? if your disastisfied with the mystique arguments that owners offer up for the 'quirkiness' surrounding the mechanicals, and reliability, how can you not be equally against the mystique in buying? if you fundamentally diverge from the 'philosophies' or 'mantra's', perhaps, that permeate the ferrari world, then you need to digress all the way down. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 386 Registered: 3-2002 |
I never thought I would say this, but I agree with Arlie 100%. John, If you don't mind me asking, is Mr. Heard in the same line of business that Jim is involved in? Mr. Heard also owns that gorgeous 288 GTO that was at the Concourso this year, right? DES, I was referring to Augusta National Golf Club in Georgia. They host the Masters tournament every year. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1656 Registered: 8-2002 |
That depends why they're offering to let me behind the ropes, Arlie... & i don't see that as favortism if they don't know me... & if they DO know me, then, yes, it's a favor... That i can accept... But Ferrari is a public company, anyone can go buy a Ferrari- just not an Enzo... No one's allowed behind the ropes, except those authorized- if i get authorized, then that's a different story... Not a very good analogy... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 689 Registered: 5-2002 |
DES, it's not what you know, but WHO you know. The next time somebody offers to let you behind the ropes at a Ferrari dealership or a Formula One racetrack; be sure and turn them down on their offer because, according to your principles, there should be no favoritism, correct??? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1655 Registered: 8-2002 |
Arlie, the only means of acquisition should be money- cash, denero, moolah, dough, bread, duckets, cream, Benjies, c-notes, Ns, dead presidents, cheese, bills, bucks, bacon, dollars- it shouldn't matter who has it. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 688 Registered: 5-2002 |
"but exactly what are the means of acquisition...? " If you have to ask, then you obviously don't need to know because you are not in the loop. If you were in the loop, then your Enzo would be on it's way down the assembly line and out the door! | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1649 Registered: 8-2002 |
"Special" cars require "special" means of acquisition. Arlie, i understand that... i'm not asking for them to give me an Enzo and i'll gladly pay them on Tuesday, but exactly what are the means of acquisition...? i have to be a collector...? That's horseshit-(LOL, sorry)...! As far as Charlie's Angels being a "t&a" romper room- sure, i guess it's eye candy, marketed that way, but some "t&a" enthusiast might be sitting somewhere saying, 'that stupid-looking car doesn't DEServe to be near those girls'... Again, i'm just looking at things from all siDES... | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
Junior Member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 69 Registered: 11-2002 |
From the information I have Demi Moore is not amoung the first (if at all) that will recieve an enzo. Jorge Carnicero is picking his Enzo up this week. He was the first person "fitted" for a seat. I spoke to him last week and he is under the impression he is one of the first (if not the first) to recieve one stateside. Jim Spiro, as of yet, is not getting one, although in my opinion no one desrves one more. He has had 3 f50s, and drove his black one as a daily driver, over 40k miles before selling it to Dan Heard (who now drives the car on his 70 mile daily commute from his home in Baton Rouge to his office in New Orleans). Stand by the I10 any morning in Louisiana and you will hear that monster tubi screaming wail. (By the way the F50 never left Jim stranded, and still runs flawlessly.) According to Jim, its the best running F50 he has ever driven. In reality, I'm sure Jim could have gotten one, but did not pursue it because he preferred the shifting and was not sure he wanted the paddles. If you want to see one driven in ANGER, Eric Van Der Poole will be giving our VIPs rides around the track in an Enzo at our New Orleans Concorso in October. John P.S. One really interesting fact: Jim drove the F50 so much that the alluminum gate between 2nd and third wore down to razor sharp point! Had to be replaced before Dan took it over. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 685 Registered: 5-2002 |
Since an Enzo is a Ferrari, it is unlike any other normal car. That's why everybody "worships" the Ferraris. So why does it come as a surprise that you can't buy an Enzo like any other normal car? "Special" cars require "special" means of acquisition. It keeps out the riff-raff. You gotta pay to play. (And dance through the hoop in a manner that the Ferrari sales system requires). They make the car, and they make the rules. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1647 Registered: 8-2002 |
John, i don't know who Augusta National is, so you're safe due to my lack of knowledge... Eric, i see what you're saying, but what if average joe Ken Barbie doll celebrity gets an Enzo, 'cause he's an A-list partier, huge money-thrower and has a 355, 360 & an F40 but doesn't know how to drive it worth an ass crack...? So i have a shot at an Enzo when i see that same one in the DuPont registry 3 months later with a scratch on the hood and in severe need of a new clutch...? Oh, and the price remains the same as new or worse- it's even higher 'cause it was "previously owned" by Joe Blow, the silver screen steriod jockey... WTF is that...? If i walk in there with half a mil in a briefcase, i expect to be regarded with the same respect as any celebrity... Even if i'm writing a check, or having the money wired or i've got a $500,000 money order- it doesn't matter... If i'm in there to buy my first Ferrari, i should be treated with the same respect as the guy who's in there getting a 355 in every color... Ferrari's not on my good side as far as this is concerned... Not that they'd care- i'm not a big buyer... | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 384 Registered: 3-2002 |
"John great point about putting on a 100k in 3 years," Im not sure if you are referring to the post made by DES, but speaking of Jim Spiro, he put over 30,000 miles on the F50 before he sold it. It was indeed a daily driver, and from what I hear the new owner drives it frequently as well. There are some guys on this site that know more about this than I do, so hopefully they will chime in. I like to drive. I don't even have a sportscar at the moment, but it is normal for me to disappear in my car for a few hours at a time. If I had an Enzo or the like, you can bet your bottom dollar that it would spend more time on the road than in the garage! | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
Junior Member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2002 |
I agree with Huberts post, that it is insult to have that car in a T&A film. That was my point earlier. Anyway the factory during the 50's and 60's was extremely picky about who bought there cars. John great point about putting on a 100k in 3 years, I bet that guy Jim Spiro with the black F50 might be the one does that with the Enzo. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 459 Registered: 1-2002 |
eric- your point, while valid, is somewhat moot with respect to ferrari, and the companies dynamic with it's customers. while i agree that ferrari 'caters', per se, to a very elite and succesful niche of consumers, it is, soley, in control of the direction of that dynamic. you would be hard pressed, i think, to find a manufacture other than ferrari that is able to 'dictate' the conditions of ownership, and retain the 'prestige' that ferrari has been endowed with. | ||
| Eric Vartanian (Evartanian)
Junior Member Username: Evartanian Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2002 |
I just thought of an example of this...Take the Sultan of Brunei, for example, they've built custom cars just for him. But they also started to limit the number of F50s he got cause he wanted so damn many. All of the other points are well made though, and I have no great explanation of this, but just sharing my thoughts. | ||
| Eric Vartanian (Evartanian)
Junior Member Username: Evartanian Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2002 |
One thing I haven't heard come up is customer's loyalty/passion to the marque, and the company's desire to satisfy the customer. I agree that it is a bit unfair and discriminatory, however, Ferrari as a business is aiming to satisfy customers and maximize profit. All of the other points considered, Ferrari also has a bit of an incentive to sell to these "high rollers"/collectors/long time customers. Though there are many more people with the means of obtaining the cars than there are cars available (so I'm not sure if they have a problem selling the cars), they know these are the buyers with the loyalty and money to keep coming back for more...(get the next 420, V12 GT, or the next "Enzo") Keeping these people happy means they will buy many more cars for many more years--pass the love to their heirs, who knows. Now I know there are always wait lists etc. for the cars, so they are leaving many people out, but Ferrari does seem to have this kind of loyalty to the customer to...it also adds, I figure, to the exclusivity a bit. Not sure if thats a great point, but it was a thought I had and thought I'd share. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 383 Registered: 3-2002 |
I agree that another person's opinion is just as valid as mine(which is why I respect yours), yet the real issue at hand is whether or not you think Ferrari has the right to decide who they sell their cars to. An extremely difficult question indeed. I would definitely be against their plan of action if the ONLY way to get an Enzo would be if you previosly owned several other F-cars. But that is where the invitation and recommendation parts comes in. I think that if you personally had the cash and DESire to buy an Enzo, then you could probably obtain one through either invitation, recommendation, or a combination of the two. I seriosly doubt they would deny someone who had the cash and exhibited passion for F-cars. "It's all point of view... i just don't see how Ferrari thinks it's King ���� to make that distinction..." I know it is a swiss cheese arguement, but saying that is almost(not entirely, so don't jump on me too hard) like saying Augusta National has no right to deny women members. <-------- insert flame retardant suit here | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1646 Registered: 8-2002 |
John, who are we or they to say who's hands are wrong... Just because we think we're right, doesn't make everyone else wrong... i agree, anyone who let's it sit is downright silly and, to me, they don't DEServe the car... But those same people probably have the cars to collect them and think that WE don't DES Ferraris 'cause we'd actually drive them...! It's all in the eye of the beholder, but that doesn't make the beholder the supreme ruler on the subject... Keep in mind, our feelings are feelings- opinions and nothing more... i think you're an idiot if you have a Ferrari and don't drive it, but you might think i'm an idiot if i have one and DO... It's all point of view... i just don't see how Ferrari thinks it's King •••• to make that distinction... Hubert, i agree... if i had an Enzo, it would be my daily driver- to work, to the grocery store, through snow, dirt roads, rain, mud- everything... Only thing is, i would aim for 100k miles in ONE year... | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 381 Registered: 3-2002 |
"What ���� does Ferrari give if i buy an Enzo then flip it for a few 100k...? They made their sale, they got their money, what's the big deal...? Why do they care what i do with my car...? " DES, Im surprised you asked that. Consider that there are people at Ferrari who have passion as well, and don't want to see these cars fall into the wrong hands. Don't get me wrong, I don't think their plan is flawless, as it does preclude some very deserving buyers. You might say it leaves something to be DESired. Yet I do believe it has some merit. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 456 Registered: 1-2002 |
regarding demi moore getting an enzo? well, if she drives it, then the more power to her. if it sits, as most celeb cars do, then no, she doesn't deserve it, nor does anyone else that lacke the reverence for these cars to actually USE them. what upsets me more is the enzo being paraded around in some non-interesting, snoore of a t&a parade called a movie. i find it insulting; content and context. ps- if i owned an enzo no way would i sell, nor would i let it sit. i would drive it everywhere: morning coffee, grocery store, cross country, etc. 100k miles in 3 years, that'd be the goal. as it should be w/ any ferrari or sports car. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1645 Registered: 8-2002 |
PS: Just as an added note, i can't name any of the movies i might've seen Demi Moore in, nor can i name the last movie she was in- i don't even know if she's even in movies in anymore...! There's, of course, no "affiliation" here and i'm not a fan- she just caught a lot of flack in this thread, which is why i raised the issue with her name... i don't even find her that attractive... Just my DESclaimer... | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
Junior Member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2002 |
Very well written Andreas. I heard from one Ferrari dealer that you had to have owned an F40 and F50. In addition, probably other more regular models helps as well. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1644 Registered: 8-2002 |
Andreas, i agree, she isn't NOR SHOULDN'T BE out of place, in comparison to the rest of the people who received an Enzo- this is a bit upsetting. This is, hands down, clearly discriminatory. Let's take, for example, Mr. Ausbrooks- is a HUGE collector...? Nooooo... But he knows more about Ferrari than most of us will ever know... So that means if he's got the cash for an Enzo, he can't have one, merely because he doesn't have a bunch of brand new Ferraris lined up in some air tight, heated, guarded, alarmed warehouse...? This isn't unfair, it's downright disgusting... How can any of you justify this...? What •••• does Ferrari give if i buy an Enzo then flip it for a few 100k...? They made their sale, they got their money, what's the big deal...? Why do they care what i do with my car...? i'm willing to bet a substantial number of the people on the Enzo list don't know •••• compared to Mr. Ausbrooks, but because they have the means of obtaining cars they probably know nothing about, they get the newest most elite Ferrari...? This is really bullshit, doesn't anyone else have a problem with this policy...? While they're at it, why not limit sales to individuals who are 40 years old or older, 'cause what the hell does a 23 year old know about Ferraris- a car s/he's only wanted all his life...? How much passion could a 23 year old have, compared to a 40 year old...? This is ridiculous... | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 380 Registered: 3-2002 |
"(hey, Demi flipping Enzo, sounds like an adult movie, never mind)" I cant take it! Im just glad the Missy Eliot song is losing appeal. LOL!!! | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 377 Registered: 10-2002 |
DES, defending Demi because she fits the pattern of your preferred women? Sorry for the stab, couldn't resist, I think she is still pretty cool myself. Eric and John are quite right (from what I heard/read): Ferrari wants to weed out the quick buck traders who flip the car and also make sure some VIP person gets it. And I have to say probably both categories apply for Demi. She has enough cash to not make an extra cheap buck by flipping the Enzo (hey, Demi flipping Enzo, sounds like an adult movie, never mind) and she has the celebrity status. However I don't know, whether she'd qualify in the 'coveted customer segment', which you only enter by being a long standing customer and having bought several cars in the past (and kept them). And I think she doesn't qualify for the 'race appeal', but here I'll stop my argument as I get again to chauvinisticly thin ice. Who knows, maybe she is a racer at heart. But that's maybe why some people get turned off by her getting that car, if that is true in the first place. On a related note: I'd be really interested in seeing some kind of list showing who eventually got an Enzo (and didn't flip it). Who really qualifies and I bet there are a bunch of men among them who also wouldn't meet the racer's level etc. So Demi wouldn't be really out of place after all. | ||
| Eric Vartanian (Evartanian)
Junior Member Username: Evartanian Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think I've heard they use invitations, requirements like the prospective owner has had to have a certain number, maybe 4 or 5, of newly purchased Ferraris, and I know for the F50 they had a leasing program. I know all of this is not new, but just thought I'd add, if anyone knows more please embellish... | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 379 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think that part of it has to do with Ferrari wanting to make sure(as much as that is possible) that owners of the F50 and Enzo don't sell the cars immediately after the lease is over for a HUGE profit. They would like these special cars to be bought for the purpose of track time by true enthusiasts. Although it does cut out the enthusiast who has not previously owned other F-cars. This has to do with the "scalping" of the F40s when they came out | ||
| Eric Vartanian (Evartanian)
Junior Member Username: Evartanian Post Number: 89 Registered: 3-2002 |
Actually DES, I do believe they are exactly selective in the way you just described, from what I understand. I am not sure exactly as to the process that was used for the F50, Enzo, etc. but if someone might have the exact details of this, they can post it... I know discussion on this has come up before, just not sure on the details... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1643 Registered: 8-2002 |
Andrew- that's a little selective, don't you think...? i mean, whether they make 349 or 3490, they'll still sell every last one of them, no question- i just don't see how they can justify selling to certain customers and not anyone who walks in the door... That's the equivalent of selling to men only or whites only or only people in Springfield, Illinois or only people who wear blue sneakers or whatever... What's the difference if i go in there or if some huge collector goes in there, and we both have the same amount of money in our wallets, ready to plop down, for a new Enzo- why does he get first pick over me...? i treat all of our customers the same- the clients with 2 employees in their company and the clients with 100+ employees in their company. Everyone gets treated like they're the only client. Maybe this needs to be discussed a little more, at length... | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 522 Registered: 10-2001 |
Des , its just that Ferrari has this policy about how the Enzo and other limited run cars should be sold to loyal and active Customers first ..( F50 , Barchetta and Enzo ) , and i dont think Demi moore is one of those customers ..i could be wrong but i dont think so.. ... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1642 Registered: 8-2002 |
Holy crap... Demi is catching a lot of flack, here... i'm not a fan of hers or anything, but i don't see anything wrong with her having one- maybe you all know something i don't & please share, if you do... Otherwise, none of us should have a problem with her taking delivery of an Enzo or 100 Enzos or whether she's the first one to do so... Our passion for Ferraris is just our passion- our feelings don't ordain what is meant to be done with them... Maybe you guys own watches or something and don't take care of them or maybe you own clothes from a certain clothing line and don't take care of them- maybe she's a watch or clothing enthusiast and thinks the same think about you guys...! Just an example, though, to point out how silly this seems... | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
Junior Member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2002 |
This whole bit about the Show Biz types and the Rare Ferrari's is lame. At least when Enzo was alive the cars went to Race Team Owners and Royalty. Not Bimbos. | ||
| John (Modenaf1fan)
New member Username: Modenaf1fan Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2002 |
wtf? DEMI MOORE!! what the hell is she going to do with an Enzo?? She does not deserve that car unless she has a garage filled with ferraris which i doubt. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 216 Registered: 9-2002 |
DES: it's a 550 - look at the front --Dan | ||
| Tim G. (Tim)
Junior Member Username: Tim Post Number: 240 Registered: 3-2002 |
Demi is not getting the first Enzo. it is a gentleman in Calif. would not be prudent to mention his name here, sorry. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1620 Registered: 8-2002 |
Robin, i thought that was a 575... | ||
| Robin Overcash (Robin)
New member Username: Robin Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2003 |
Don't forget the commercial for Bad Boyz II, the new Martin Lawrence/Will Smith buddy cop flick. Almost the whole commercial is the two of them slinging around a 550.... -R | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 472 Registered: 3-2002 |
They need a 3 seater McLaren F1... | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3719 Registered: 5-2001 |
I can not believe that either. They make such a stnk out of they want thios car to go only to people who drive them on the track...when was the last time we saw Demi on the track? | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 512 Registered: 10-2001 |
I really dont think Demie Moore will be the one to get the First US Enzo. Unless Ferrari has turned into a sissy company or Demi Moore is the biggest Ferrari collector of the century... | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member Username: 4re308 Post Number: 754 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jay, I did hear a rumor about who was getting the first US delivery and it went to Demi Moore. The first European delivery went to Jay Kay of Jamoiriqui (sp?). The Enzo and the hotties will be the only reason why I go see the movie. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Intermediate Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 1589 Registered: 8-2002 |
Eric, i agree... i was thrilled when i saw the Modena in the first movie, but not happy when i realized that was it... i was drinking when that commercial came on, and talking with someone, so i only saw it out of the corner of my eye... i'm glad someone saw it, or else i wouldn't know for sure if i saw it or not, until the next time the comes on... They better show a lot of the Enzo in the sequel... | ||
| Eric Vartanian (Evartanian)
Junior Member Username: Evartanian Post Number: 88 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ha, I figured this would come up here... Now I have to go see the stupid movie though. One of the girls drove a red Modena in the first one for those who don't know, unfortunately not much screen time for the car. When will these people figure out they need to show a lot of Ferrari footage with lots of fast driving and screaming sounds. It'll get me in the theatre that's for sure. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
Junior Member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2002 |
It will be in the movie the car was provided by Ferrari of B.H. Kind of a shame that it is, I wonder what the real Enzo (the person) would have thought of this Hollywood B.S. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2001 |
...Was just watching the Superbowl (yawn), and saw a commercial for the new Charlies Angels movie... At the very end of the commercial, they briefly show an Enzo with some girls standing next to it. Might it be that we'll see it make an appearance in the movie I wonder?? Anyone know anything about this?? |