| Author | Message | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 849 Registered: 11-2002 |
On a side note about experts...guys like Wayne and others do a commendable job of piecing all the old fuzzy loose ends back together through their research....by and large most have the best of intentions....the problems come about when self centered individuals use the fact that there is alot of gray area to satisfy personal agendas. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 509 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matt In about 2 weeks we're going to strip everything down, put the engine on the dyno, and start painting. I'll take a lot of photos. Best Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 843 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>All the "experts" said that 327 powered Sting Ray Corvettes NEVER had the 427 hood with a hood scoop. Until somebody interviewed an old guy who actually WORKED at the factory, and he said that several times, when they ran out of 327 hoods, they would install 427 hoods with scoops on the cars just to keep the assembly line running. So much for experts.<<< That's the same problem I have with Ferrari 'xspurts'...Ferrari had pathetic record keeping prior to about 1975...coupled with the fact they were hand built with special orders thrown in here & there. Many of the early cars were built the same in only general terms. When the "documentation craze" took off many original blank build sheets were filled to order... This lack of quality, reliable and questionable/fuzzy documentation allowed for the creation of several things...fake cars, made up histories, so called experts that are hard to challenge. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1859 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, I need more pic's I am have a catatonic fit. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 505 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie You're very very right. Seeing the Beatles at Shay is a totally different experience than seeing Sir Paul on a HBO special. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 719 Registered: 5-2002 |
Which of the following would be considered the more knowledgeable enthusiast: Someone who was a casual car buff and actually saw classic Ferraris and Lolas race at the track back in the 1960s, OR: Someone who became extremely knowledgeable about all the details of classic cars, but came about that knowledge through research years AFTER the glory days of classic 1960s racing? It's sort of like asking, "Who knows more about the attack on Pearl Harbor: some 19 year old sailor who was actually there at the time, or some history scholor who researched the attack from a zillion sources over 30 years time span? Either could be considered "experts" but in a totally different light. I think the auto world tends to ignore folks who were actually "there" during the glory days, and concentrates too much on the mechanical and technical details that are researched by the so-called "experts". Reminds me of a snafu in the Corvette world. All the "experts" said that 327 powered Sting Ray Corvettes NEVER had the 427 hood with a hood scoop. Until somebody interviewed an old guy who actually WORKED at the factory, and he said that several times, when they ran out of 327 hoods, they would install 427 hoods with scoops on the cars just to keep the assembly line running. So much for experts. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 778 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, thanks. I saw that one. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 496 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne In OT there's a link to a GT40 restoration that shows exactly what can happen when "experts" turn cars into jewlery. A problem that occurs IMHO on the F car concours field all too often. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2002 |
Restoration is an expensive process, thus some take shortcuts ... when an important vehicle is involved it is a shame. In the end not all of us have the same view of the car, even though we are all enthusiasts. Some like the driving, some like the looks and the shows ... thus the car gets restored to suit each owners viewpoint, especially if there is money to be saved. It is criminal though, that many cars are sporting new panels to make them dead-straight when they were never built like that in the first place (Maserati 250Fs for example). I think examples of this type of over restoration is dwindling, as owners are starting to think history and authenticity and not just perfection! Plus a race car always looks more REAR showing a few stone clips and scares  I love to drive, so the whole car has to be restored not just the body; infact I would rather have a mechanically 100% car that drives perfectly than a beautiful display ownly car. May not win the concours show, but I'll win the real prize on the drive home Pete | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 443 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne Yes Winston I believe it was in "Sports Car International". Best Jim | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 745 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, I am aware of the multitude of errors on the Barchetta site, but I'm guessing you are referring to an article by Winston Goodfellow? If not, I'm not at all familiar with a Warren Goodfellow. As far as P5 being based on 0846, since we last discussed this, I've learned that that is not the general opinion of most who have researched this topic. I would actually be very interested in reading the actual article again, but I cannot locate it. Do you remember what issue and which publication (Cav or Forza?) that it is in? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 441 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne Warren Goodfellow wrote an article recently where he stated that P5 was built on chassis 0846. After that article Barchetta added that information to it's web site. I have posted photos of P5's chassis. Look at those photos. Compare the measurements. Reread Mark's email. Do you think P5 is built on 0846? I don't. My purpose is and remains academic. I really want to know. I own J6. J6 was given to AJ Foyt by Ford as "THE LEMANS WINNER" J6 was sold by Foyt to Les Linsey, to Peter Lavonos, to me. When I bought it it was painted as the car that won LeMans. I was the one who investigated and once and for all determined that my car was infact the Donohue/McLaren 4 place car. I was the one who restored it to it's proper configuration. Ford thought they were giving the winner to AJ Foyt. Ford was wrong. In the Indy speedway museam is a Ford MKII painted and described as the 66 winner. That too is wrong. The 66 winner is owned by George Stauffer and it's not in the Indy museam. I own a CCCA National First Prize winning Duesenberg. (It won this award before I bought it.) It also won at Louis Vitton and in class at Pebble Beach. When I bought it it was very beautiful. It was also a mechanical disaster. The springs inside the beautifully painted and polished brake drums were rusted away. The wheel bearings were so worn the grease had liquified. The fuel gauge always read full because the sender was rusted solid. The incredible cockpit mounted brake bias system was rusted inoperatable. The cockpit control that enables one to use exhaust engine braking was so rusted inside that it permanently deflected exhaust back to the engine. I guess the Judges didn't notice or care. As the previous owner had probably driven this car from the trailer to the field and back again he probably didn't either. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 742 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, feel free to chime in here anytime. After all, this is your thread. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 741 Registered: 8-2002 |
"truly I'm sorry if "cronnyism" is touching a nerve" Touching a nerve with me? I have no "cronnies" and would definitely not be considered anyone else's "cronny"(sp?). I am a relative newcomer as I wasn't even born yet when these cars were new. You and Jim are both much older (no offense) and much more experienced in dealing with these "so -called experts" and I'm only asking that you share your opinions with me. I am not challenging your position. My experience so far is that, while there are a few arrogant, self-proclaimed experts, the ones who's opinions are generally respected, have presented themselves to me as researchers who are searching for historical accuracy but don't claim to know everything. One of the most active concours Ferrari judges (A.B.) has been very helpful in my own research, but always maintains an attitude that he, too, is always learning something new. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 786 Registered: 11-2002 |
There is no need to post names. (although I don't care if they're sneaking around..) One only needs to ask around for credentials and it all becomes crystal clear! Got position when? Got position How? Brought what original credentials to the table? Saw how many of X when new? Recorded originality of how many of X when new? Wayne, truly I'm sorry if "cronnyism" is touching a nerve. But please let's not live in delusion or denial. After all it's just a fact of life and should be part of ones understanding of how the world works. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 785 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wayne, I know how the game works. Like everything else of status and importance it's political/financial. The powers that be are either appointed by cronnies, apparently for life, are self appointed or appear magically. Could a review of the crendentials of these experts be a bad thing? Just to see what the true nature of their background and experience is? Seems reasonable to me...after 30+ yrs in this biz I know enough to have some perspective and I'll gladly volunteer to review some of the credentials...after all who might know better and have more intamite knowledge of details, the talkers or the workers as to how things are/were? Sorry Mr. G. don't mean to hijack your thread. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 739 Registered: 8-2002 |
Oh yes, I forgot to mention that this forum is watched occasionally by several "experts" and their informants (who lurk but never post), so private email is definitely called for. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 738 Registered: 8-2002 |
Forget this "the powers that be" and "without naming names" BS. I'm really curious which over restored and highly important cars we are talking about as well as which "so-called experts." Jim, JRV, email me privately if you wish, but please enlighten me. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 737 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV, when dealing with cars such as the P4, P3/4, etc., where only a few examples have ever existed and each would have had its own original details and flaws, it is impossible for anyone to be an expert on what is correct for an individual car. I would seriously doubt anyone who claimed to have that much detailed knowledge of all three of the P3/4s. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 784 Registered: 11-2002 |
or at least publish their going rates for a yes vote....;-) so anyone could know if they can afford to win the game. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 783 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>All the more reason why comp cars don't belong in judged concours events.<< Actually I was thinking all the more reason to have these so called experts credentials checked! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 782 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mr. G, To me your attention to detail is not only highly commendable, but goes above and beyond all but a handfull of restorations. Most resto's that will be viewed in public are reverse engineered, first the calls go out to the powers that be, asking what they want to see, and wallaa, it's restored that way. It's obvious you don't hold to that technique and I find that gutsy and commendable. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 736 Registered: 8-2002 |
All the more reason why comp cars don't belong in judged concours events. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 440 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Look at the photo (2 Down) of the NACA duct under the sill scoop. That is an original panel. Note the mistake, the saw cut in the rt front cornor that extends towards the rivet. That mistake is part of the history of that original panel. It's details like that that over time dissapear. Best Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 780 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mr. G , I agree with you. But I think we all know that the voting powers that be (self appointed expert talking heads) have passed judgement that perfection of beauty should take prescedence over originality and attention to that original detail. The powers have been bought off, installed, appointed, so one now has to bow to their subjective, slanted, payed for opinions or accept the consequences imo. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 438 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne Without naming names but after carefull examination it's amazing how the details of several very important cars have been lost or improperely restored. Very sad. Best | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 735 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jari, I second that. Please post. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 433 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jari Please do. If you search under P4 on this forum you'll find more pics. Best Jim | ||
| jari roikonen (Jarifinn)
New member Username: Jarifinn Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hi James Really nice project. I have some pictures from Davids workshop from 3 years ago,and i thought i was back in sixteys. Haven for me that place. I think you would like those pictures, can i post them here? have a nice day Jari | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie As I plan to drive this one on the street it will need fans. In it's original form neither my MK-IV, Lola, or P4 had fans but as I drive them on the street I've fitted fans. Any of the modifications I do to make them streetable can be removed without leaving a trace. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 708 Registered: 5-2002 |
Pardon my ignorance, but does a high speed Lemans race car really need additional cooling fans in its original racing configuration? Looks to me that 200 MPH speeds would provide plenty of cooling air. Or does that engine still need additional cooling? | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2514 Registered: 9-2001 |
yeah, I was thinking in a real race application you would want the fans protected on the inside as something might come off the road and hit one of the motors, breaking the fan as oppose to just denting the radiator | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2002 |
The fans can push or pull. So far we've chosen this way because it allows us to mount bigger fans and there's an oil radiator behind oil radiator that makes mounting them behind problematic. | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 195 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, I've been following all your P4 posts quietly and now I have to break my silence. I love the Ferrari P4 for what it is - (a Ferrari thoroughbred). And the one you have has even made it more special because of your detailed posts in restoring it. Thank you for including our f-chat community with sharing us details of the painstaking restoration that you and your team are enduring. I hope one day to have the opportunity to see this car... (god willing) to even one day be its owner (in my dreams for now?)... If I may request, when you're done restoring this masterpiece, please burn a CD of its restoration events and its historical lineage. I would gladly purchase the CD for a reasonable amount. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2511 Registered: 9-2001 |
interesting - the fans push the air through - i guess this is better in high speed applications | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 426 Registered: 10-2002 |
Details...       | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 758 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ahhhhh yes...attention to detail....an arduous task but very self satisfying in the end. Keep the pics and updates coming Mr. G. Regards | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 2178 Registered: 6-2001 |
Enzo was probably paying them off. It didnt work though... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 410 Registered: 10-2002 |
We're down to the little details. At LeMans cars were required to have tabs through which officials could strap a seal as no refueling was allowed except in the pits after certin intervals. Watching the race I noticed the French officials often took longer to snip the seals on the Fords than on the Ferraris...  |