| Author | Message | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2003 |
Right On,Henryk! THATS what I am talking about!! You seem to be about the only guy who got it! | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1131 Registered: 8-2001 |
Unfortunately, MOST buyers are "hung-up" on this mileage thing.......higher price for lower mileage! This is just a fact of life! Where have you seen a Ferrari for sale, that didn't have the mileage adverised......those that didn't, had very high miles. One can argue this all day long, but the bottom line IS STILL.........LOW miles equal HIGHER price!!!!! Isn't this true for ANY car? My feeling is that MANY people who can afford to buy a Ferrari, CAN'T afford to drive it!!!!!! That is why they are SO afraid of putting miles on the car. They are afraid that they will be 'stuck' with some large repair bill. So they are simply afraid of loosing money when it comes time to sell.....PLAIN and SIMPLE!!!!! Why is it common knowledge that people disconnect the speedometer on a Ferrari? | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2003 |
Yeah,ya know,when I first started looking at Ferraris,I thought they were fiberglas. I mean,its an expensive car to begin with,and you want this car to last forever,right? I was weaned on Vettes (fiberglas) and,THOUGHT that Ferraris were,too. When I found out that they werent,ALMOST thought about forgetting about it. There are enough concerns (issues,maybe-?)with a Ferrari,without having to have to worry about,freakin' RUST TOO!!! Damn!!! But,luckily,I talked to enough KNOWLEDGABLE Ferrari guys,who taught me what to look for in that regard, Example,in the 308s,look VERY closely at the bottoms of the doors for rust bubbles,or the repair of same. There is no proper drainage in the bottoms of the doors for rain (or car washing,for that matter-HAND washing,ofcourse!) And the doors have terrible rust problem issues in the bottoms of the doors,if they get wet and accumulate too much water. So,look for that when you are looking at 308s. I dont know what other "common" rust problems occur in 308s,or any other Ferraris,for that matter, (new thread?or reply at this one) But,like I mentioned in a previous post.I currently have a 91 Vette as a daily driver,with 178,000 milles on it. This car runs better than new,not even one drip on my garage floor of any fluid,no usual smoke at start up,absolute strong running,problem free (so far,and for last 5 years)This is a GOOD car! BUT... if I tried to sell it,I probably couldnt get anything for it ,because of the mileage. REGARDLESS of the fact that it is a meticulously maintained car,and have replaced some minor parts.And,IF I had anybody interested in it,they'd probably want me to give it away because:"Hey,man.like its got 178K,its probably gonna die on me any day now" "I'm doing YOU(ME) a favor by takin it off your hands for(minimum $$"))...So,...I KNOW its a GOOD car. BUT...you gonna take my word on it? Well,if you dont...BAM!!! I've got every single receipt and service record on this car,since new. ALWAYS serviced,oil changed RELIGIOUSLY!... NOW you gonna believe me? Well,theres STILL that "stigma" of 178,THOUSAND MILES!!! B.F.D! I had an 86 porsche 944 that had 150,000-NO problems. Paid $3000.00 for it,drove it for a year, Maintained it well.And sold it for $3900.00 with 164,000 miles!Enjoyed the car for a year,AND made a $900.00 profit. WHY? The car LOOKED like it had 30,000 miles on it....and....service records!! I also have a bud who's a head machanic at a BMW dealership. Drove one to 250K,and another to 300K,before needing rebuilds! AND... WE KNOW that Ferraris are a much more superior car.So,can I get 300K,350K,400K,if it is MAINTAINED AND SERVICED PROPERLY?? What about these cabs and police cars that regularly go up to 2,3,4,500K (with chevy and ford engines,yet!!!) So,you can go on and on and on about mileage,and everybody has THEIR own opinion of it.MY original question was "why is everybody so obsessed with mileage?" Too little or too much. I wouldnt skip over an ultra low mileage car,over a higher mileage one. Because less wear on the TOTL,ACCUMULATIVE COLLECTION OF PARTS THAT MAKE UP A WHOLE CAR!! And if you do get a seal or something thats dried out,REPLACE IT!! GEEZ.whats the big deal? youre gonna be replacing parts on ANY car,eventually. But,less,sooner,on a lower mileage car than a higher mileage car.And,like I also said in a previous post.If youre REALLY worried about the cost of maintaining a Ferrari,you have no business buying one in the first place!...get a Vette,but,you still need to MAINTAIN IT!!!! Thanks-bye. | ||
| Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2364 Registered: 8-2002 |
Now you know who Ron Jeremy is. | ||
| G. Green (Mr_green)
Junior Member Username: Mr_green Post Number: 175 Registered: 8-2003 |
Wayne, I went on google and all that came up was pornography. | ||
| Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2362 Registered: 8-2002 |
 | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2431 Registered: 10-2002 |
As is often the case you are correct. (At least about 250 PF's sadly rusting away in the South of France) | ||
| Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2361 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, I meant it this way:
(KEITH Martin?) | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2430 Registered: 10-2002 |
Sports Car Market (Mag) The guy who was talking on the speakers at the CI as your better half marveled at the guys who were paying $50 to be photographed with the Not so SuperModels. | ||
| Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2360 Registered: 8-2002 |
www.google.com Look up Alice Cooper while you're there. | ||
| G. Green (Mr_green)
Junior Member Username: Mr_green Post Number: 173 Registered: 8-2003 |
Frank, Who is Ron Jeremy? | ||
| Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2359 Registered: 8-2002 |
(Keith Martin?) | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2429 Registered: 10-2002 |
I've put a few miles on Ferrari's over the years. 65K on my 275GTB, 85K on my 308, and 115K on my TR. All in IMHO a F car costs about $3 a mile to drive. BUT at a point (once the chassis starts rusting) the $/reward is no longer there. I'm talking about drivers not collectors. Collectors are a whole different matter as they are, once restored, ususally super maintained and with this maintainence can go on forever. As the price of restoration has risen IMHO it only make sense to restore a car you really love and want to keep. Unless it is a VERY rare car you'll never get your costs back. Rust is the main reason driver Ferraris hit the wall. Look at rivets&glue in the Vintage sec. No one in their right mind would go through that with anything but a keeper. As Ken Martin says: "Pay for the restoration get the car for free." | ||
| Joe Craven (Rscapri2600)
New member Username: Rscapri2600 Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2002 |
I'm a car lover who isn't too concerned about mileage, especially when it comes to classics. When these cars get older, it is the maintenance and repairs that keep these cars as close to new and even better than new in some rare instances. A low mileage original unmolested 50 year old car is exactly that. Old stiff leather, rotted belts and seals etc. At some point, repairs have to be performed irregardless of the miles. There are some mileage points that do need to be considered. For example, it appears that the 2 valve V-8s often need a head rebuild somewhat prior to the 100k mileage point. If I was looking at a 90k early 308 and the owner didn't have records for a valve job, I'd consider that this car was nearly due for a valve job and price accordingly. Valve guide wear is one of those things that can't be prevented by good maintenance. Of course, it is a function of the design of the motor and I hear that the 4V motors valves last much longer. In both cases, the lower ends will last much longer with good maintenance. 85 Mondial | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 474 Registered: 5-2003 |
Agreed Frank | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2003 |
Please read my last post again.I tried to emphasize that "proper maintenance" is the REAL rule of thumb if you are buying ,NOT mileage! A lower mileage car that was BEAT on,could be worth LESS than a higher mileage car that was well maintained! BUT...SOCIETY "THINKS" that a lower mileage car is always better,and thats not ALWAYS the case,but,fair to say that in MOST cases where a car is maintained properly,up against the same car,same condition,the lower mileage car will sell for more. If they are Exactly the same car,year ,options,maintained,etc... a 12,000 mile car will probably fetch more than a 45,000 mile car.(only an example-there are hundreds of possible scenarios!-HUNDREDS!!) | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 464 Registered: 5-2003 |
Frank.. hate to disagree.. but the auctions are starting to show... A 328 is priced by condition and records.. not mileage. I watched a 30k car sell for less than a 58k car just due to condition. As we enter into the 25 year mark for many of these cars it is stupid to think you are going to find low miles. Who drives a 3 series Ferrari 2k a year? And from my own experience a low mile car that sat has cost me many times more in repairs than a well used driver in good condition. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2003 |
There is no "magic number" for mileage. You need to know if the car was MAINTAINED properly by the owner,and the service was performed by a QUALIFIED technician,and there are the proper receipts and documentation to VERIFY this. Thats all. Hey,some rich guy can buy his 16 year old kid a Ferrari,and the kid might beat the hell out of the car,then,trade it in the next year for a newer model. The car has only 2-3000 miles on it,but they are HARD miles. Then,theres a car that was owned by a responsible person,who always maintained it properly,but liked to drive it alot,and take some LONG drives.(as it was meant to be). Has more miles on it,but was MAINTAINED properly.Dozens of possible scenarios! But,the trick is,to KNOW how the car's been treated and maintained. How? Service records can help PROVE it. That is why you are told to buy a car with service records,(any car,really) but,more important with a Ferrari,because it is more costly to maintain,like one of the previous posts mentioned. The key words her are: "proper maintainance". REGARDLESS of miles. And,its basically a crap shoot,with ANY car,ANY amount of mileage,with out PROOF-RECORDS-of MAINTAINANCE. And I prefer the low mileage car that I boght because when I drive it,it still feels "tight",like a newer car.(and like one of the other posts mentioned-its just like a girlfriend-dont know what shes done before you,but,if shes still feelin "tight" who cares!-she probably wasnt Ron Jeremys girlfriend!but,get some documentation! no offense,ladies!)You probably wont get that with a high mileage car...unles the steering and suspension have been rebuilt!So,you decide what you think is right for YOU! But,get the service records and a good PPI. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 396 Registered: 8-2002 |
I would be more concerned with the condition of the car, you can't believe mileage on the odometer Disconnecting speedometers in Ferraris is rampant, but even so a 60k car may be much better mechanically and cosmetically than a 15k car it depends on who owned it I'd prefer a mint higher milage car with records at a discounted price than a mint 10k mile car, an easy $10k difference in price that you could use the money saved to rebuild and hop up the stock engine for more HP, the end result 2 cars in similar condition cosmetically and one car with much better performance and a fresh engine | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Junior Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2003 |
Ageed,I dont care what anyone says...A lower mileasge Ferrari is always gonna be WORTH more,simply beacause of the fact that it has lower miles,thus,less wear on ALL of the parts. A low mileage car,dos NOT always mean that it sat,covered in a garage or museum. Alot of people drive them regularly,just locally,and not ACCUMULATING alot of miles. And,if theyve started the car,frequently,to get the juices flowing,therefore keeping all of the seals and rubber parts lubricated properly,then,regardless of what anyone says,youve found a great,LOW MILEAGE car. And,on the other hand,if the car DID just sit,and all of the seals are dried out,and you have to rebuild,then (sure,its expensive,but,you knew that when you got into Ferraris,didnt you. Its not a suprise by all means.)what price can you put on peace of mind,now that you know that YOUR Ferrari has fresh seals,rubber,etc...And the end result is that you now have a LOW mileage Ferrari that is FRESH! Not a higher mileage one. If you are really worried about the cost of maintaining a Ferrari,you dont belong in one in the first place! Buy a Corvette! All in all,in MY personal opinion,mileage should not be a concern whether its low,or high,if the car was DRIVEN and MAINTAINED. Just because you see a 15- 20 year old car advertised with,say,7000 miles,does not mean that its dried out. Yes,it will be difficult to know whether the previous ownwer(s) actually DID drive it and maintain it properly. But service records, a good PPI at an AUTHORIZED Ferrari dealer/auto tech. can help find out. And,on the other end of the spectrum;higher mileage cars. Mileage shouldnt be too much of a concern if the car was properly MAINTAINED,except that there are now MORE MILES on ALL of the parts of the car.Ferraris were built to be DRIVEN,plain and simple. And its a shame that so many owners bought the car as "garage art". But,in the end,I,personally,would go with the lower mileage car,simply for the reasons that I stated. (and I did,3 years ago. Bought an 81-308 with 14,250 original,with service records,and 3600 miles later,still not a problem.)That is why I was wondering about why such concern about mileage by people. Every car,regardless of make,is WORTH more if it is a well maintained,serviced,car,as opposed to its counterpart,an unserviced,never maintained car. Regardless of mileage. I just see too many posts saying: "stay away from low mileage Ferraris" which is B.S. Thats not always true. And,with a low mileage car,theres less wear on ALL the parts,in general,as opposed to parts that have been used and could be more prone to fail simply due to wear and tear. Its a personal preference. Make your own choice. But,ALL cars are man made machines that are NOT perfect. Every single part is made in some factory,where the maker of that part is probably an unskilled,minimum wage employee. Who will not really give a rats ass as to the end result. Put all those parts together to make a car,and its only a matter of time before one fails,due to improper manufacture,or,wear and tear.But,taking into regard any quality control issues on parts,if they are good,then the only other thing that should make them fail are: abuse,neglect,or wear and tear.And I consider a Ferrari to utilize quality parts,in the first place. (ofcourse,theres always someone who will argue anything!)With that in mind,with proper maintainance, parts should last until they wear out. Meaning used more.Meaning more miles. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 659 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have bought some medium mileage cars and a couple of very low mileage cars. In general, the low mileage cars were, in fact, less needy. My current 328 I bought 2 years ago with 7K on the clock. Extensive records and a pro check confirm the mileage. Previous owners had done several fluid changes, etc. and the car was driven somewhat regularly, if not a lot. It's been great. I have about doubled the miles on it and it does run better now than when I got it, but that's no surprise. Even a well used car runs better after a winter of limited use and then a quick 1000 springtime miles. There is an issue of disconnected speedos, etc. However, a car showing les than 10K that really has 30K will be pretty obvious, especially to a pro. I have seen more cars showing 30K that looked like 70K than I have cars showing 10K that looked like 30K. However, there is nothing wrong with buying a well maintained higher mileage car. I had an 87 328 with 33K well maintained miles on it and had basically no problems. It's still around with about 50K on it and the guy I sold it to has had a great experience as well. Trouble is, finding a well maintained car with extensive records is often difficult. Another problem I have encountered is with cars that the owner had a long time, but drove very little in recent years and not much maintenance done either. These cars can be really needy. Dave | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 911 Registered: 2-2002 |
So, how many miles are 'enough' on a low mileage car? 500/year? A thousand? I realize that the way the miles are accumulated has much to do with it, but what's the rule of thumb? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1985 Registered: 11-2002 |
Some cars with good mileage are also getting into engine rebuild territory. I'm wrestling with this concept myself. Is this something that should just be done or should the added cost of the rebuild be figured into sorting out a lower mileage model expecting, as Ken said, a cleaner car at the end? Worrying about mileage in the newer cars or in the classics is just silly. Cheers | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1140 Registered: 10-2001 |
I appriciate a higher mileage car that has been maintained and driven, but one thing I can say from personal experience: as a car ages, things break from use as well as age. Plastic parts crack and break, little rubber bits you didn't know even existed dry out and crumble, leather wears as does the carpeting, switches wear out and break. This is par for the course, and for Ferraris these 'insignificant' bits can be stupidly expensive. That's why so many 70's 308's may be rough around the edges even if the PO kept up with the belts, tensioners, oil, etc. It's just too hard to keep replacing all the trim parts. A lower mileage car will not have the same wear especially on the switches, seat bolsters, etc. so once you get the car sorted, it truly is a better car. Top cosmetics on an old Ferrari ain't cheap! | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 996 Registered: 4-2002 |
"Why is society so obsessed with the mileage of cars?" We have a society obsessed with boiling all things down into a single number. And then using that single number, a winner is choosen and every consumer should buy that one product, the rest of the industry be damned. With normal cars milage is that number. And because most owners are average, and there is a complete array of used cars in each and every segment of the market, one can, with reasonable assurance, look at the exterior and interior condition, and the milage and understand the condition of the car. With Ferraris, cars that have low milage have different problems than cars that are driven sufficiently and different still from cars that are driven all the time. In addition, the cost structure of maintaining a Ferrari is not-even-remotely (r) commected with the maintanence structure of 'normal' cars. So mistakes are bigger, more costly, and subject to causing disalusion to the owner who wants Toyota quality in a Ferrari package. Our society of distillers cannot seem to get that through their little heads. | ||
| Darryl - TR&328 (Tr328)
New member Username: Tr328 Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2003 |
I had over 100K on my first Ferrari (1979 308GTS). I drove it everywhere with no problems. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 454 Registered: 5-2003 |
All I can say is that the market is adjusting for age. Since Ferari started mass producing in the 70's it is silly to expect low mileage cars to be the norm. The average 308 must have had at least 3 owners by now so is it right to assume that none of them would go over 6K miles? OF course not. I have noted that many 308, 328, Tr's and 348's are being sold at the regular prices with high mileage. As long as the records are current no problem. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
New member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2003 |
NO,I am pretty confident on the mileage. Got all of the paper from the (local owner) and bought the car from a VERY reputable dealer in my area. Also,the service manager at THE OTHER,very reputable Ferrari dealer in my area,where I get the car serviced,is "enamored" with the extremely clean,unmolested,original condition that it is in. The car won a 2nd place at an FCA event last year,First time out,out of approx.25 other cars. You would have to see the car,to really appreciate its condition. But,I really doubt that it would pass the 2 Ferrari dealers,and,FCA judges,if it really wasnt authentic. | ||
| TWS (Au_fan)
New member Username: Au_fan Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2003 |
When I was searching for my car I had a lengthy discussion with a mechanic here in CT who indicated that he had several 328s that he services regularly that are above the 100K mark, and that all were still running strong. The converstation that I had with him gave me the confidence to buy a car with 50K miles that was in excellent condition. Its funny because most people are afraid of cars with this many miles. The upside is if you are willing to buy them with a few miles on them you can get a heckuva discount (even with a recent major). TWS | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5824 Registered: 5-2001 |
Frank, your 308 may show 17K Miles but may have many more maybe that is why she is still running with no dryrott.  | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1745 Registered: 7-2002 |
think of it this way. all the dirty things you do to your girlfriend are great when you get to do them to her first, but if she has done everything with everyone before you it ain't so cool. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
New member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2003 |
I see alot of posts regarding "mileage"-too much,too little,-? Why is society so obsessed with the mileage of cars? Most people act like when a car hits 100,000, its "dead" Why? My 308 has 17,800 now,and had 14,250 when I bought it (freshly serviced) 3 years ago. No problems with any dried out stuff,(yet,anyway) I also have a 91-vette with 178,000 that runs as good as the day it was new. No smoke,nothing. Had a 944 with 150,000-the German auto mechanic that I was using at the time,saw that the car was a well kept,well serviced car,and that at 150K,it was "just breaking in!" Have a bud who is a BMW head mechanic,who has owned a couple beemers with 250K,and 300K,before needing any rebuilding work. And,I think that we can agree that Ferrari makes the best engines in the world.And is far more superior than the average car. So,should not fear 200-300K at all,with proper service and maintenance. Does anybody out there know of any of these elusive,seemingly,unknown Ferraris out there with over 100K? When I first got mine,I was "paranoid" when it approached 15K,then 16K,then,when it hit 17K,got over it,and decided that this low mileage,well kept car had been "saved" for me. If a car is well maintained,with records,what difference should it make if it has a lot of miles? I have been seeing an ad for a 308 with 60K,"well maintained"miles. Why is this car not selling? (an 84-for $34K-1 owner,has been in an ad paper for months)Or,on the other hand,just because it is very low mileage,does not mean that it has just "sat" for a long time. Could have been driven frequently,just not far,and started up alot when it was parked,to keep the juices flowing.Any thoughts about the "mileage issue?" It seems to come up alot on all of the F-car sites that I visit. |