| Author | Message | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
New member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2003 |
 I think the facts speak for themselves. Bush based his unprecedented preemptive attack on another country that had not attacked us and posed no threat to the USA on endlessly repeated, albeit factually totally unwarranted claims that Saddam was linked to 9/11, had ties to Al Qaeda, and whose WMD's posed a massive and imminent threat to the USA. Never mind that absolutely NO PROOF was ever forthcoming for any of those allegations. Endless repetition of alleged threat does not truth make. That little fact does not come as a large surprise, as, of course, in reality, Saddam Hussein was NOT linked to 9/11, had NO ties to Al Qaeda, and did NOT pose a threat to the USA. To this day no WMD'S have been found, nor will any ever be found. As is, Bush diverted severely limited resources away from targeting Al Qaeda, that attacked us, to funding an attack against Iraq, that did not attack us. This about face that cost us almost all of the sympathy we had after 9/11 had almost no international support because nobody believed Bushs non existent "evidence", "evidence" that consisted of nothing but endlessly repeated verbal allegations that Iraq posed a huge and imminent threat. As can be seen by all the Weapons of Mass Disappearance that Bush promised us, and that have accordingly duely vaporized into thin air. A lack of intelligence The Sydney Morning Herald Australia's spies knew the United States was lying about Iraq's WMD programme. So why didn't the Government choose to believe them? Andrew Wilkie writes. 'Intelligence" was how the Americans described the material accumulating on Iraq from their super-sophisticated spy systems. But to analysts at the Office of National Assessments in Canberra, a decent chunk of the growing pile looked like rubbish. In their offices on the top floor of the drab ASIO building, ONA experts found much of the US material worthy only of the delete button or the classified waste chute to the truck-sized shredder in the basement. Australian spooks aren't much like the spies in the James Bond movies. Not many drink vodka martinis. But most are smart - certainly smart enough to understand how US intelligence on Iraq was badly skewed by political pressure, worst-case analysis and a stream of garbage-grade intelligence concocted by Iraqis desperate for US intervention in Iraq. It wasn't just the Australians who were mystified by the accumulating US trash. The French, Germans and Russians had long before refused to be persuaded by Washington's line. British intelligence agencies were still inclined to take a more conservative position. And the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, even went so far as to say during a late April interview that "much of the intelligence on which the capitals built their case seemed to have been shaky". The CIA had clearly lost the plot if its October 2002 report on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program was anything to go by. Either that, or the agency was party to a disinformation campaign designed to encourage support for a war. How else to explain the excerpt quoted by the Prime Minister in early February: "All key aspects ... of Iraq's offensive biological weapons program are active and most elements are larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf War." The CIA's public acknowledgement of a review smells more like early positioning for its day of reckoning than a genuine interest in continuous improvement. The CIA can't afford another serious blunder so soon after its failure to pick up the September 11 attacks. Australian intelligence agencies made it clear to the Government all along that Iraq did not have a massive WMD program (that dubious honour remains restricted to at least China, France, India, Iran, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Syria, Britain and the US). Nor was Saddam Hussein co-operating actively with al-Qaeda. And there was no indication Iraq was intending to pass WMDs to terrorists. Now the WMD claims are unravelling. All that US intelligence garbage is on the nose. Coalition forces in Iraq have not found thousands of chemical artillery shells ready to be fired or ballistic missiles loaded with deadly bacteriological agents. One of the major concerns about the war now is the way it will encourage the proliferation of WMDs. America's adversaries are being encouraged to acquire WMDs to deter US aggression. Mutually assured destruction kept the US and Soviet Union from each other's throats for decades. And, for now, Iran's and North Korea's arsenals seem to be influencing the US to back off. continued: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/30/1054177726543.html  Of course, US intelligence experts were also fully cognizant of the fact that Bush's case was based on deceit and lies: White House 'exaggerating Iraqi threat' The Guardian Bush's televised address attacked by US intelligence President Bush's case against Saddam Hussein, outlined in a televised address to the nation on Monday night, relied on a slanted and sometimes entirely false reading of the available US intelligence, government officials and analysts claimed yesterday. "Basically, cooked information is working its way into high-level pronouncements and there's a lot of unhappiness about it in intelligence, especially among analysts at the CIA," said Vincent Cannistraro, the CIA's former head of counter-intelligence. http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0%2C12271%2C807286%2C00.html  General Clark talks like candidate, bashes Bush Ex-NATO commander: Iraq shouldn't be center of war on terror Bush's Men Tried To Gag Me, Claims Former Nato Supreme Commander General Wesley Clark But the June 15 edition of NBC's Meet the Press was unusual for the buzz that it didn't generate. Former General Wesley Clark told anchor Tim Russert that Bush administration officials had engaged in a campaign to implicate Saddam Hussein in the September 11 attacks-- starting that very day. Clark said that he'd been called on September 11 and urged to link Baghdad to the terror attacks, but declined to do so because of a lack of evidence. Here is a transcript of the exchange: CLARK: "There was a concerted effort during the fall of 2001, starting immediately after 9/11, to pin 9/11 and the terrorism problem on Saddam Hussein." RUSSERT: "By who? Who did that?" CLARK: "Well, it came from the White House, it came from people around the White House. It came from all over. I got a call on 9/11. I was on CNN, and I got a call at my home saying, 'You got to say this is connected. This is state-sponsored terrorism. This has to be connected to Saddam Hussein.' I said, 'But--I'm willing to say it, but what's your evidence?' And I never got any evidence."  Best, | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4335 Registered: 9-2001 |
Telson, what website did you gather all the info from? The only point you made is the arguments from the left can be just as blind and stupid as those on the right. | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
New member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2003 |
 The sad fact of the matter is that Bush has enormously compromised the security of the USA by diverting resources away from hunting Al Qaeda, that attacked the USA, to preemptively attacking Iraq, which didn't attack us and posed no threat to us. Not to mention the massive US financed recruiting drive Al Qaeda has benefited from as a direct result of our imbecilic little war based on nothing but lies and deceit. Saddam Hussein was NOT linked to 9/11, had NO ties to Al Qaeda, and did NOT pose a threat to the USA ! Outside of the USA, practically absolutely nobody believed those totally ludicrous claims by Bush in the first place. No weapons of mass destruction have been found to this day, nor will any be found. Seeing Bush in action, and the way he has brainwashed the majority of US citizens and practically 95% of the US media into believing his evil fabrications, while working hard to turn the USA into a country of the unfree, where judicial due process and civil rights don't mean much anymore, has for the very first time allowed me to understand exactly how Hitler happened. Americans are simply too gullible. They fall for Hitler's maxim on lies over and over again: "The great masses of the people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one." Over and over and over and over and over again, the American people were told that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction practically falling out of his ears. The American people were told that Hussein was giving away these weapons to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda the way you and I might give away birthday presents. "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." - ���� Cheney, August 26 2002 "If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world." - Ari Fleischer, December 2 2002 "We know for a fact that there are weapons there." - Ari Fleischer, January 9 2003 "We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more." - Colin Powell, February 5 2003 "Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes." - Ari Fleischer, March 21 2003 "There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. As this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them." - Gen. Tommy Franks, March 22 2003 "We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad." - Donald Rumsfeld, March 30 2003 "I think you have always heard, and you continue to hear from officials, a measure of high confidence that, indeed, the weapons of mass destruction will be found." - Ari Fleischer, April 10 2003 "There are people who in large measure have information that we need . . . so that we can track down the weapons of mass destruction in that country." - Donald Rumsfeld, April 25 2003 "I am confident that we will find evidence that makes it clear he had weapons of mass destruction." - Colin Powell, May 4 2003 These are the words of administration officials who were following orders and the party line. Yet a Democrat named Harry Truman once said, "The buck stops here." What did the man in receipt of said stopped buck have to say on the matter? "Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons." - George W. Bush, September 12 2002 "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." - George W. Bush, State of the Union address, January 28 2003 "We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." - George Bush, February 8 2003 "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." - George Bush, March 17 2003 "We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them." - George Bush, April 24 2003 "We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so." - George Bush, May 3 2003 "I'm not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein -- because he had a weapons program." - George W. Bush, May 6 2003 It has become all too clear that the horrid descriptions of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq were nothing more than the Big Lie which Hitler described. The American people, being the trusting TV-stoned folks they are, bought this WMD lie bag and baggage. Once we impeached a sitting President for lying under oath about sexual trysts. No one died, no one had their legs or arms or face or genitals blown off because of the lies of a President who had been caught with his pants down, minding his own business, and, yes, like it or not, it was his own business. Today in America, we endure a sitting President who lied for months about the threat posed by a sovereign nation. That nation was invaded and attacked, and thousands died because of it. The aftereffects of this action will be felt for generations to come. We have turned into an isolated and vilified pariah state on the brink of bankruptcy, the sole result of our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq total anarchy and chaos evident to the entire world. The very democracy which gives us meaning as a country has been put in peril by these deeds. When the smoke cleared, every reason for the war against Iraq was proven to be a lie.  Best, | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 173 Registered: 5-2003 |
Zak... In any event.... Have a good night over there in the UK...nice talking with you.....gotta do laundry now anyways. | ||
| zak dhabalia (Dhabaz)
New member Username: Dhabaz Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2003 |
kds, I commend you for your eloquent arguments. i think we will have to agree to disagree. Nazis, Japanese, Russians.... these three examples are all nations. when one nation fights another nation the outcome is usually resolved by a clear surrender of the defeated by economic collapse or political disentegration or the pure might of the other party to obliterate that nation. I fear that this war is not in the same historical category. There is a desire to equate the solution to 911 and terror as a conventional type of war and to fight it as such...ie which nation can we squash? I guess the second nation after Afgahanistan should have been Saudi Arabia given that 17 of the hijackers were saudi but that would have been difficult given the US ties with Saudi and GWBs in particular. anyway that is not the point i am trying to make. This is not a nation that confronts us. It is an idealogical difference by misguided muslims in many nations. In fact there even english christians that are now converting to Islam to join these groups. This enemy cannot be defeated by a superior ability to manafacture weapons faster than they can. To achieve their aims they operate as guerillas and use guile in a way that we cannot deal with....except to just perhaps nuke any muslim country and hope noone survives. Thats the problem... its a non sovereign enemy that can move and regroup and recruit from anywhere and its rate of formation is faster now than at any time before 911. I predict it will grow faster and predict even more fast if the shoot first policy you suggest continues. Lets think clearly here....the war against terror in its current format cannot possibly win. How can it? By bombing/invading/ occupying every new threat that raises its ugly head like some snake on medusa head? The path we emabrk on now is a path of escalation ala Israel/Palestine. Its the quickest way to obliterate our comfortable lives for sure. Macroeconomics/market chaos will soon do that for us. The truth is Kds, I am struggling for answers too but I am absolutely sure that this current path is the most dangerous for us and them. | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 94 Registered: 7-2003 |
Three Points: 1 ) Whether We �Deserved It�/ Why They Hate Us: The U.S. makes mistakes. We have policies that hurt people. We also do much good. But, as far as I know, we do NOT target innocent civilians, then take joy in their suffering. Nothing can justify that, and for that reason alone, I agree with Rudy: We are right and they are wrong. When some �have nots� go through wealthier neighborhoods, they might say two things to their kids: �Work hard and you can have all this� OR �The rich people oppress you. Take what you can from them.� The terrorist are the latter. Achievers will always be targets of hate and jealousy. Fact of life. 2) How to stop Terrorism: Treat the cause, not just the symptoms. Can anyone disagree with that? If we stick our head in the sand and just say �screw them if they don�t like us,� how far will that get us? Knowledge is power. Understand why they hate us. React to justified criticism. Defend against those who irrationally hate. 3) Jingoism: Bumper Sticker: �Real Americans Buy American Cars:� How many of US would put such a sticker on our car (even assuming we�d ever put ANY sticker on our car?) More likely the one David E. Davis, Jr. suggested: �Real Americans Buy Whatever They Want.� I leave it at that. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 172 Registered: 5-2003 |
Zak.... The people attacking us already hate us enough IMHO......and the only real thing that they can graduate to now in the world of terrorism is the unthinkable. That event would, in my world, bring a response which would probably forever end the issue of using deception in your answer of the question of "are you with us or against us". The commonly used "it will make them madder if we defend ourselves" argument goes against common sense in my opinion......among other things. Imagine the historical outcome of every war in time, but use WWII as an example, and imagine where'd we all be today if that concept had been followed thru. Those who will die are also Arab/Muslim and these are not stupid people either. Their very self preservation depends on an understanding of what the question means and how they must act upon it. My muslim friends are extremely troubled by the seemingly unusual difficulties in wrapping up AQ in certain countries, such as Pakistan as you suggested, given that these countries are usually, by and large, military dictatorships with efficient secret police services, etc. I never suggested that your ideas were liberal either Zak...just that those who tend not to follow this thinking usually are.....and I wanted to point out what I think is the ridiculiousness of their position. Maybe "Democratic" as in US political parties would be a better choice. As an practicioner of economics you realize more that enough bullets and bombs can be manufactured in under 9 months than a population can regenerate. The world is not bothered by Nazi Socialists, Japanese Imperialists or Soviet Communists and they have the same breeding capability to those we face today. | ||
| zak dhabalia (Dhabaz)
New member Username: Dhabaz Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2003 |
Kds, You still dont seem to grasp my central point...the risks of further terrorism atrocities have increased dramatically in my perhaps rather ill informed view. I certainly would like to see the world a better place with less mis directed/ill informed muslim youth thinking that 911 was justified. Of course it wasnt. 911 was horrendous as was the bali bombing but the course of action you advocate does not seem to square with an ongoing view of self preservation. Your comment of 'as many as it takes' is something that I am sure GWB would use too. Unfortunately the people on that death list are probably growing faster than the USA ability to eradicate them. That is all I am trying to get across. These people are growing in number like a bacteria but god knows GWB policies in Iraq/ afghanistan and maybe yet Iran or then..Pakistan etcc is their best form of nutient to maintain their growth and spread. Look at the the number of people flocking to Iraq as fedayeen. they are feeding on this whole sorry mess. Where will they go once the iraq situation dies down(lets hope it does soon). After all, Osama bin laden and his cronies came directly out of the aftermath of Russia in Afganistan. All I am really trying to ask is how can we reduce the prospects of further terrorist recruits emabrking on a jihad against us in the west? Do you really believe that the current path will make us or our children any safer in the future? I dont think i am a liberal at all. Im trying to use common sense to analyse facts as dispassionately as possible. This is what i do every day as a trader in financial markets for the premier US investment bank I might add. Its no different from looking at governemnt actions on economic polies and seeing what effect they have on market prices. If you analyse them you anticipate price changes and thus can profit from them. I am applying the same logic here. This path is misguided if you really think that GWB can hold off the floodgates. Ariel Sharon has a similar view as GWB but those Palestinian suicide bombers are queing up in ever increasing numbers. I wish you luck in future too. Life is too short to be obsessed by idealogical dogmas whether they are far left or right in origin. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2003 |
As those who attacked the US did not discriminate against who they intended to kill ("any" few thousand would be fine for them thank you very much)......it seems extraordinarily hypocritical of you to suggest the free world do otherwise. It's not selfish....but, you were close my friend...it's self preservation. And how many more are we going to kill before these people stop ? As few as necessary.........and as many as it takes. So please take any mis-directed anger that you have and direct it at those most deserving of it....namely the people at the Finsbury mosque in "Londonistan" or any other place where you come into contact with those who wish to carry on in the manner that they have for the last 20 years. It's time to take out the trash in the world....and since the UN has abdicated it's role as garbageman what do you expect the US to do ? Anyways...I personally wish you well and hope that you have every success in life available to you...provided that you don't try to kill me. It's really that simple.............now, liberals will analyze that to death...because liberals can't see black and white...good and evil.... GWB will stay focused, and the world will win as a result. | ||
| zak dhabalia (Dhabaz)
New member Username: Dhabaz Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2003 |
Kds, I am appalled that you have such a selfish attitude of..in effect ...doesnt really matter how many kids and innocent civilians we kill as long as 'I'm allright Jack' and as long as my petrol cheap for my car then I dont care who we and GWB trample on. This attitude is prescisely why there are many iraquis and Afghans who will become terrorists and inflict who knows what at some point. You are right that nothing too bad has happened yet on US soil but that is a rather empty fact. Something horrendous could happen tomorrow or any time started by someone who feels disgusted by what the USA is doing in Iraq which had nothing whatsoever to do with 911. If the USA feels so strong about terrorism its funny how they love northern ireland catholics so much and throw money at them at every opportunity for their equally as ugly as Al quaeda operations. Bush has unleashed something horrendous for sure. No atrocities yet but I think we can be sure that 911 will no longer be the one off that it might have otherwise been. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2003 |
Firstly as a Canadian, I am thoroughly ashamed of our government. But they are liberals....who wouldn't be ashamed. Here's an article about GWB and your great country....a country that has selflessly protected me and my family for the last 50+ years.... From www.ejectejecteject.com Okay, the day is still young, and God knows what mischief may yet be in store. But I can�t help being amazed at how well we have done in these first two years of what we all knew would be a new world, back on that beautiful morning, a world ago. Despite the best efforts of news media to portray us as a terrified, angst-ridden nation ready to fall apart with just one more good poke�despite desperate attempts to undo unparalleled victories for political gain�despite hysterical warnings of Islamic rage and retribution, we have gone two years now, knock wood, without a single terrorist attack on US Soil. Who could have thought such success possible on that first evening? How many of us went to sleep expecting to hear in the morning of new and more terrible attacks on September 12th, or 13th? How is it possible to forget that first Thanksgiving, or Christmas, sure that the symbolism was just too great for our enemies to pass up? And then New Years. Superbowl Sunday. 4th of July. Elevated threat levels. Dire warnings on muffled audiotapes. Nothing. This is quagmire? This is a debacle? Say what you want about George W. Bush and his policies � that is of course your right. But consider this, all you defeatists and self-haters out there: it is barely possible, mathematically, to tie the President�s record for defending this country from a new terrorist horror. You cannot � not even hypothetically � improve upon it. This is a fact that is undeniable and so obvious that only a few will see it. And at what cost? Did jackbooted storm troopers descend in the night from black helicopters to take away those voicing dissent? Or do the most vile and baseless accusations fly hither and yon, blown ever larger by a terrified and complicit media elite? Did hundreds of thousands of Muslims have their businesses torched, their families terrorized and beaten, the rest hauled off to concentration camps, or are you far safer, both physically and emotionally, as a Muslim in the US then you would be in any middle eastern country � safer and less harassed, without question � than Jews are in France today? Have we given up our liberty and lifestyle for this perfect record, or do we still go to football games and shopping malls and fly, more or less, the way we used to? What, indeed, has this victory cost us to date, other than the irreplaceable lives of our young men and women, fewer in number still after two earth-changing victories than the number lost in a Beirut barracks during a time of relative peace and hidden yet growing dangers? Today, if it continues in its bland denunciations of the President and his policies, will be another day where New Yorkers can go back to suing each other over WTC memorials, where the Democrats can cry WMD and Quagmire to their heart�s content, and where life in general returns 1/730th of the way back to normal once again. For those too blind to see the magnitude of this victory, let them whine and seethe all they want. We are still here. We are still here, and far better off, then we were two years ago today, when entire countries were vast terror camps, and children�s cemeteries. The people that launched that horror, and those that supported it, and those that applauded it � that dwindling number of those of them that are still alive � have, to put it plainly, had their asses handed to them by the country they saw as soft, decadent, gutless and afraid. And we have been blessed with a President who for all his faults, gaffes, mistakes and compromises has nevertheless maintained the one simple, essential, necessary character trait needed to fight -- and win -- a war against ruthless enemy and the armies of useful idiots that rally to its defense: single-minded determination and an utter disregard for criticism from those who should know better. For all his many manifest failures, it is hard to imagine a politician less effected by the legions of hysterical people determined to put off this fight. In my eyes, he has not tired, he has not faltered, and he has not failed. Much remains to be done. Many more horrors undoubtedly await. But we have made a decision to fight back, and we are winning on such a scale as to leave future historians shaking their heads in wonder at how so many could be so wrong about something so obvious. So, it is indeed a Happy Anniversary, tasteless as it sounds. Take a moment, today � take a long moment � and imagine how just how much worse things could have gone. ----------------------- Liberals are the pallbearers of societies. (My comment) | ||
| Dinah DeRoller (Mme_butterfly)
New member Username: Mme_butterfly Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thanks Speedy308. Never has the desire for US citizenship called as strongly as during this latest trip to Germany. And to think, I ended up with a FRENCH rental car! The horror! (they have no talent for automobile design whatsoever). I can't wait to get back to the track. Cheers, Dinah '98 F355 Challenge #27 | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 308 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'm with Telson on this one. Anyone who remembered my older posts would know why. USA had the world's sympathy immediately after 9/11, but now that sympathy has turned into hatred. I still hope that those who died on that day (some of whom aren't even Americans) wouldn't die in vain, but by the looks of how the current US government is heading, that hope is fading fast. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 256 Registered: 8-2001 |
I saw that show last night that Rob referred to in his post. It was remarkable. Should be "required viewing" for every US citizen. It provided an excellent perspective. | ||
| Alan Leach (Speedy308)
Junior Member Username: Speedy308 Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks Mme Butterfly. It seems comparing politicians to patriots is kinda like listening to Lee Greenwood sap or Elvis Presley originals. Crank up "The Promised Land" and come on home. God bless the USA. Ferrari #22127 World's Fastest Art Car  | ||
| Dinah DeRoller (Mme_butterfly)
New member Username: Mme_butterfly Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2003 |
I just can't stay away from the fray. I *highly* recommend the book "Beyond Terror", by Ralph Peters, containing a compilation of essays both before and after 9/11. The predictions of oncoming terrorist attacks, and the activities of the countries and individuals we are currently struggling with, were remarkably, frighteningly, accurate. As a "German" national who lives in the US and is currently in Germany, it is interesting to see the different spins on the war, Bush, US, et. all. It depends on whom you ask. The propaganda I've seen here shocks me. Who is right?. I can't wait to come *home* to the US. Dinah '98 F355 Challenge, #27 | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
New member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2003 |
Mike, hmm, thing is, Clinton is history, and while I hope that Bush will join Clinton there very soon, the sad fact of the matter is that Bush currently is still in office, and therefore still has the power to strut his evil stuff. Anyway, enjoy the ride in the 308. Best, | ||
| Mike Z (Spike308)
Junior Member Username: Spike308 Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2003 |
I would love to hear Telsons view on the 8 years prior to the current administrations.... No doubt, Clinton was asleep at the wheel... the golden child who was handed an economy that was bound to flourish, no matter who was in office. More to the point, Clinton IGNORED foreign affairs. Point of fact, he did not meet with the CIA director for more than 2 years after assuming his post (he was too busy with his own "post", ignoring his most sacred duty to protect our country). Clinton was handed Osama on a silver platter, but politely declined on at least TWO occasions. Being beholden to opinion polls at EVERY TURN of his tenure, he made it clear he would not make any tough or (currently) unpopular decisions (which is a REQUIREMENT of the job). Our country suffered greatly at the hands of others. It is clear that intelligence and related security issues were not a popular issue during his and her 8 years. Could Bush be doing a better job? ... absolutely. To be fair to Bush, the 1990's saw the rise and organization of hate in an unprecedented manner, thanks in part to cheap, widely accessable communications. He and his administration were COMPLETELY UNAWARE of what was going on (save an aspirin factory in Sudan). Even more to the point, I now need to go drive the 308 (on topic). | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
New member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2003 |
Jon, re Afghanistan, I'm just talking from the perspective of current outcome, ie what is now, we should have really committed and engaged in real and enduring nation building as opposed to basically going in, taking the Taliban out, and more or less leaving, leaving a vacuum that is now being filled to our detriment. I myself was always against the Iraq war, I never believed Bush's so called evidence as I never saw any evidence that was believable, I always thought it was just common sense that an unfounded attack against Iraq would sidetrack us from going after what should have been our real objective, Al Qaeda, while simultaneously making Al Qaeda much more popular, I believed that attacking Iraq for no reason and against the wishes of the world that never fell for our propaganda, would ultimately back fire. That is why I've been making the case against this Iraq war on a couple of other boards for quite some time, long before war was imminent. As for politicians, imho they are all, with very few exceptions, a pretty sickening bunch, although some of them really take the cake ;-) Best, | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 984 Registered: 8-2001 |
Telson, We share the same views on Iraq but most certainly not Afghanistan! How can you state we shouldn't have attacked a regime that harbored, financed, and protected the leader of the terrorists who attacked us. We asked the to turn him over and told them nothing would happend if they did so, they refused and wanted to negotiate. We said F You Freedom is not negotiable. In my opinion we should have just nuked the Taliban......would have made the clean up a lot easier! As for your assertion that I am constantly hearing from liberals about it not being unpatriotic to question the war or the costs of such consider the following... Many of those same liberals who are now blasting Bush and the war supported the cause this past spring because the OPINION POLLS showed the American people supported the war and Bush. Now the polls are tilting the other way and the left is using this as a convienent excuse to exploit this issue for political gain. It has nothing to do with being PATRIOT and everything to do with being a POLITICIAN! I didn't support the war or Bush on the Iraq issue as is my right. I can think of several F chat posters (Art) who also held the same position from the start. But the blatant flip flops of people like John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean and the rest of the left make me sick. They don't give a rats ass about being Patriotic they only want to use the issue for political gain. If Bush's campaign had been a rousing success (meaning the exit strategy and the pull out of our troops) no one could call the liberals on it becasue they all voted for it (or at least all the candidates running for president). If it starts to fail or public opinion changes then the they change their spots! If you can show me a post or two prior to the war where you stated your oppostition to it and stuck with it then I have no problem with your oppostion to the war and I wouldn't call you anything but a Patriot BUT..... ...if like the rest of the liberals many of whom voted for the war, supported it and now are against it, you simply are using this as an excuse to support your party's political gain on the issue.... You and anyone else that has done the same has no business stating anything about being patriotic! Regards, Jon | ||
| Telson (Pitbull_trader)
New member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2003 |
9/11 should be a day of remembrance for the victims, may they rest in peace. It should also be an opportunity to reassess what the USA stand for and where we are today. Unfortunately, 9/11 has been hijacked by the same neoconservative extremists that have hijacked this country and that want to abolish all the good we stand for, both nationally and internationally . 9/11 has hypocritically been abused in the past six weeks by Bush not just to defend Iraq policy and argue for oil drilling in the Arctic, but in response to questions about tax cuts, unemployment, budget deficits and even campaign finance. Meanwhile, the crudity of the administration's recent propaganda efforts, from dressing the president up in a flight suit to orchestrating the ludicrously glamorized TV movie about Dubya on 9/11, must have set even his most die-hard supporters' teeth on edge. Meanwhile, Bush and his neoconservative extremists would have you believe that criticism is, of all things in a democratic country, unpatriotic. Mark Twain had quite rightly derided what he called monarchical patriotism, the old idea that the king can do no wrong, and that the neoconservative extremists that have hijacked this country have adapted on a one-on-one basis of our country, right or wrong, and president lead, we'll follow, you are infallible. http://www.msnbc.com/news/962958.asp?0cb=-61d178650 That kind of a patriotism is more at home in monarchies of yore, George Orwells Big Brother State or communist or fascist dictatorships, but most definitely not in a free democracy with free people. Where have Bush and his neoconservative extremists brought us with their policies? After 9/11 America had the sympathy of the world, which, in just two years time, has been squandered to the extent that international opnion polls show the USA in a free fall, laughed at for our hubris and subsequent fall by first world countries formerly sympathetic to us and what we used to stand for, hated with a vengeance by many a third world country, providing a breeding ground for a new generation of terrorists targeting us. The war against Iraq that Bush just felt like fighting even though it had nothing to do with terrorism, that is going to cost us hundreds of billions of dollars that we didn't have in the first place what with a deficit that is about to go above half a trillion dollars, 33 million people living in poverty, 9 million unemployed, a huge number of Americans without what in most other highly developed countries is seen as the most basic insurance, health and pension, enormous private debt and savings basically non-existent, 46 million people who are analphabets etc etc, we coulda done better stuff with the money. Dubyas wars have resulted in nothing but anarchy and chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan, served as a huge recruiting drive for Al Qaeda, our real enemy, and was based on nothing but lies and deceit. If you ask why Dubya diverted resources away from hunting Al Qaeda, which attacked us, to invading Iraq, which didn't, he suggests that you're weak on national security. Saddam Hussein was NOT linked to 9/11, had NO ties to Al Qaeda, and did NOT pose a threat to the USA ! No weapons of mass destruction have been found to this day, nor will any be found. It was known before the war against Iraq that al-Qaeda and associated groups continued to represent by far the greatest threat to Western interests, and that threat would be heightened by military action against Iraq. A STRIKE on Saddam could dramatically increase the risk of terrorists obtaining WMD. Spy chiefs had virtually no intelligence about alleged quantities of chemical or biological agents held by Iraq. There was no evidence Iraq provided terror agents to al-Qaeda. Yet, Bush chose to wage a war against Iraq that cost us the sympathy and cooperation of the world we so desperately need, because that was the easy way out. Rather than fighting what really threatens us, ie international terrorism, but which unfortunately is not easily fought and located, he chose to go after the easy, albeit nonsensical and highly counter productive target of a nation you can find on a map and attack, which just happened to be Iraq, the main motive was not doing something effective against terror, but an intended demonstration of US power and strength to world. Never mind that that has completely back fired, we stand there as weak bunglers and incompetent liars, and Al Qaeda got a free recruiting drive. Just go back to the hype of the prewar days, when Bush was desperate to sell the war, if not to the world that never believed him in the first place, then at least to his fellow citizens. The warning uttered lacked no clarity. Iraq was allegedly a breeding ground of terror, an incubator for Al Qaeda and a clear and present danger to "the civilized world". Bush made it the heart of his case. At his eve-of-war press conference back in March, the president cast the coming attack as the next step in a story that had begun on September 11 2001. Iraq was providing "training and safe haven to terrorists, terrorists who would willingly use weapons of mass destruction against America and other peace-loving countries". The irony is that, at the time, this was not true. But it is now. With astonishing speed, the United States is making it's nightmare come true. Iraq is fast becoming the land Dubya warned about: a throbbing hub of terror. Islamists bent on murder, all but non-existent in Saddam's Iraq, are now flocking to the country, from Syria, Iran and across the Arab world. In the way that hippies used to head for San Francisco, jihadists are surging towards Baghdad. For those eager to strike at the US infidel, Iraq is the place to be: a shooting gallery, with Americans in easy firing range. Afghanistan is perilous terrain, but Iraq is open country. For the Islamist hungry for action, there are rich pickings. Bush insisted that Saddam's Iraq was packed with these people, ready to be deployed at a moment's notice. Events have taken care of that little lacuna in the US argument. Iraq may not have been a terrorists' paradise at the start of the year - a retirement home for a few has-beens, perhaps - but it is now. Operation Iraqi Freedom blew off the gates, and Islam's holy warriors have rushed in. Not only has Bush compromised and massively denigrated the security of the USA and its citizens through the counter productive war against Iraq based on his lies, he is also hell bent on turning the very elements that define us as a country on it's head: our civil liberties, freedom, and judicial due process. We cannot just chant the new slogans from our very own Ministry of State Propaganda / Deception, if we let the neoconservative extremists that have hijacked this country continue on their path of destruction, deception, and infringement of what we stand for, we will start looking like all what we ever professed to be fighting. Sticking ones head in the sand and hoping everything will turn out ok, falling for lies, deceit, and the evil phantasies of neoconservative extremists and cheering them on, that is mere self destruction. Defending what this country reallystands for and what made us great, that is REAL patriotism. We owe no less to the victims of 9/11 and their families, to fight for the real America and our real place in the world. Best, | ||
| zak dhabalia (Zaki)
New member Username: Zaki Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2003 |
Just read a few things here and it makes my heart sink. 911 was just horrendous. I work for a financial institution and have family living in america. It was a terrible day for the world and for the unleashing of an equally horrendous desire for vengeance. Many more innocents have died in afghanistan and Iraq in the name of getting even than died in 911. These people were going about their daily lives and work too. Dont forget that most of those hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, none were from Afghanistan or Iraq. Their deaths in the name of vengeance is equally deplorable. Unfortunately the US media give a very sanitised and biased view of events in these two countries. The tragic collateral damage of military action is better covered in Europe. The lesson of 911 should have taught us the need to understand or fellow world citizens. Jingoism and patriotism of the sort expressed here is just as misguided as those 'cowardly' hijackers who felt the need to die in pusuit of their cause. I fear that the vengeance unleashed by our nations has added thousands of volunteers to pepetuate the terrorist threat. What hope is there now that the brotherhood of compassion in the immediate aftermath of 911 towards USA and GB will ever be restored. That is the real sadness. Zak. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeff and Wolfgang, Thank you. I, too, dislike the candy-a$$ liberals bad-mouthing America, but I have to chime in here. After serving in the US Marine Corps for four years, I realized that the beauty of the US, Britain, Germany, and (egads!) even France, is that candy-a$$ liberals are able to bad-mouth whatever they want. It makes me proud of myself and all my brothers and sisters in uniform, American or not, who defend the right to be a candy-a$$ liberal. 9/11 will forever be the day that every civilized nation can reflect on the fact that we are all human beings, and that we all have each other's backs. | ||
| Jeremiah M. Burke (Bullfrog)
Junior Member Username: Bullfrog Post Number: 91 Registered: 6-2003 |
Don't take this the wrong way anyone but there is one thing that I miss from those dark times. It was the feeling of unity and brotherhood that were felt by all Americans in our darkest hours. It seemed that all of America was at peace and that you could walk around any neighborhood even the worst of them and feel safe because we were all in sync. It's a shame that it takes the worst of things to bring out the best in people. Hopefully one day we will have that brotherhood that we felt after 9-11 all the time. God bless. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 983 Registered: 8-2001 |
Folks I am a bit late to this thread but with good reason. Go to the off topic section (it'll be posted in a few minutes after this post). Ditto just about everything said here honoring those who died or were injured on 9/11. We have all mentioned the ones who died, their family members left behind. One group we have failed to mention are those who took care of cleaning up Ground Zero and those who rebuilt the Pentagon. If you will remember the original plan was to have Ground Zero cleaned up in one year. Well countless hundreds of people worked their asses off to make sure it got done in time. They finished way ahead of schedule. Some worked 72 hour shifts the last few weeks without sleep and in the first few weeks after 9/11 there were many firefighters, police personel, and rescue workers who didn't leave the scene for an entire week. Many slept on Ground Zero and only returned home occasionally. These people worked in a dangerous area that was filled with all sorts of harmfull chemicals floating through the air and risked their own personal saftey trying to find any survivors and making sure Ground Zero was finished on time. Same story here at the Pentagon. Let's not forget these folks and their hard work. 9/11 is a personal struggle for me everyday because the attackers planned and financed the operation in Hamburg, Germany, where I was born and lived for 8 years. They attacked NYC where my entire family is from (and many still live there) and they attacked my current area here in Northern Virginia at the Pentagon. For the bastards that did this we will eventually find you! You can't hide in those caves like cowards forever. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 182 Registered: 2-2003 |
You know if it were any other day I would keep my mouth shut but you said it best mike 550: candy ass liberal bad mouthing our country while our troops are in harms way. HELL YES Love it or leave it!! | ||
| Bart Duesler (The_bart)
Member Username: The_bart Post Number: 333 Registered: 1-2003 |
Tears. Many tears. | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2003 |
Jeff - I tip my hat to Britain. Our true friend. James, I agree. Let freedom ring. William you lost me somewhat. Not sure which way you went on that mini rant  And if Ferrari was french I would have driven mine over a cliff a while ago. I guess if Ferrari were french it wouldn't be a Ferrari. Disclaimer: I am a jingoist all the time and nothing irks me more than a candy ass liberal bad mouthing our country while our troops are in harms way. Please no lectures - just feeling more chauvinistic than usual on this particular day. God Bless America and the coalition troops. | ||
| Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
Member Username: Trinacria Post Number: 454 Registered: 8-2002 |
I had the experience of watching both planes crash into the World Trade Center and then watch as both towers fell. I was a few miles away staring at the towers as it happened. I still see it in my head as clear as the day it happened. When the towers fell my heart almost stopped and I felt many peoples lives going through me. I screamed. To all the liberals, politicians, protestors, who are against what we are doing now - go to HELL. I am sure their attitudes would change if it was their daughter, son, mother, father, wife, etc who were killed by these cowards. Today, there is not much I can do, so I just said a prayer for everyone, thank God for what we have, and never forget. Rob, I missed the show. I'll look out for it. Everyone knows why we are hated, but there is no excuse for what they did - NO EXCUSE! The media tries to lower it, even a little, shame on them. | ||
| JM Zarka (Crazy_horse)
Junior Member Username: Crazy_horse Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2002 |
WE WILL NEVER FORGET. http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/Flash/heroes/swf | ||
| Andrew H (Stokpro)
Junior Member Username: Stokpro Post Number: 131 Registered: 6-2003 |
Many of you may have already seen this.... if not, definitely worth a look. http://www.doubtlessdesigns.net/godblessamerica.html Just click on the flag. | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 389 Registered: 12-2002 |
 | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 762 Registered: 1-2003 |
I ditto everyones comments. God Bless Us All! | ||
| Alan Leach (Speedy308)
Junior Member Username: Speedy308 Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks to Jeff for starting the thread this AM. I hope it stays at the top today. Remember the past, and work towards the future. 1977 308GTB #22127 World's Fastest Art Car | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Advanced Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2818 Registered: 4-2002 |
JEFF GOOD BLESS YOU, YOUR FAMILY,THE BRITISH PEOPLE, AND OUR OWN HERE IN THE STATES THANK YOU, BRUCE | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2778 Registered: 1-2002 |
Thanks, Jeff. We have no greater friend than Great Britain. And I do mean Great!!! | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Intermediate Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 1292 Registered: 9-2001 |
When you live as well as America does (and America lives very, very well), you have to protect it and you have to deal with the fact that there�s millions of people all over the world who don�t have a fraction of what the average American has. From material possessions to basic freedoms--America is the rockstar nation. I think the American media should stop the "Boy are we surprised!" type of reportage. Wake the •••• up. America, you�re hated. Terrorism happens all over the world all the time. I heard someone say on CNN the other day, "America used to be the world. Now America is part of the world." It�s an all time low and we gotta deal. The flag waving "U-S-A" chanting is a too little too late. The knee jerk patriotism is corny to me. If you want to be a patriot, then be one all the time, not just when you feel your homeland attacked. It�s not just about being vigilant against attack, it�s about knowing that until racism is gone, illiteracy and semi-literacy is gone and myriad other social ills wiped out, then no one is totally free. That�s my kind of patriotism. No more ghettos, no more idiots, no more of the blind, brutal ignorance that keeps progress at a crawl. I have at least said way too much. God bless our fallen heroes. Peace | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6237 Registered: 12-2000 |
There was a great show on Discovery last night trying to understand all the hatred towards America. Very very insightful and about the most balanced view I've seen yet. Our government and media are not 100% balanced and neither are the middle east media outlets. An example is how many middle easterners believe that all the jews in the WTC were warned before the attacks to get out and that Al Gore was a jew. I took from the program last night... 1) You'll never understand something 100% and have a balanced perspective if looking from one direction. 2) Most middle easterners really like most of America, they like the people and want to study here. However, there's a justified perspective that we don't care about anyone but ourselves. I really got the feeling that it's like little kids looking up to their favorite sports star and the sports star won't sign autographs or respect his fans in return. 3) There's much inter-strife in the middle east. Most governments are made up of nonelected positions and the people want this to change. Most of those fighting for change and who the people support are those that have had experience in America. 4) Most don't like or support any of the terrorists actions, but they do like how it has drawn attention to the middle east and how maybe it will make America think about it's policies and attitudes towards the world. IMHO there's a root cause to every action. Bush and America is fighting the symptoms and not the root cause. Although when under attack, you have to defend yourselves, so not much time to work on foundational issues. Also, most of our attention and money these days is on Iraq, which doesn't have much to do at all with terrorism. Because of less attention on Afghanistan the Taliban and other terroist networks are actually rebuilding themselves. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and others impacted by the tragic events two years ago. | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
New member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2003 |
Remember those who have fallen during 9/11 and the entire cause of rooting out terrorism. Regardless of your political view or opinion of what's going on, please remember to support our troops- they are the ones sacrificing for us right now to allow us the freedom we have! Thanks UK, Italy, Spain, & those supporting us in Germany- this isn't just a US thing. | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 366 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff & Wolfgang, thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately, it ain't over yet, and it may never be over. As our free societies get more and more complex, it gets easier and easier for a very small number of mentally demented people to inflict a terrible blow. Our only option is to stamp out these sickos where ever we find them and to snuff out their institutional sources of funding. Again, thanks for the show of support. Dale | ||
| Matt (Matt_lamotte)
Member Username: Matt_lamotte Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jeff and Wolfgang Thank you very much. Today is going to be a day of rememberance for all of us for as long as we live. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2549 Registered: 10-2002 |
No I was quoting the song the meleody of which we share with our cousins accross the pond. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2003 |
James....did you read the book by Hannity ? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2548 Registered: 10-2002 |
Let Freedom ring... | ||
| Dinah DeRoller (Mme_butterfly)
New member Username: Mme_butterfly Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2003 |
I'm visiting relatives in Germany right now. There is a lot of reflection here of what this day means to the world. '98 F355 Challenge #27 (obligatory Ferrari content) | ||
| Wolfgang Eistert (53345)
Member Username: 53345 Post Number: 696 Registered: 3-2003 |
Also Germany remembers this tragical & horrible day.   Wolfgang FORZA FERRARI | ||
| Branko Medenica (Branko)
Junior Member Username: Branko Post Number: 131 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jeff, thank you for your thoughtful post. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 176 Registered: 2-2003 |
God Bless America! | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 547 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hi all. Just a note to say we in Britain remember what day it is today...   |