| Author | Message | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 606 Registered: 6-2001 |
Right, but you still need to build a roll cage into the Stradale if you are serious about tracking it. Add that to the kerb weight. I figure 350-400 lbs difference when all is said and done. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 176 Registered: 3-2003 |
Solly, Ferrari lists the weight for the Challenge as a dry weight and the Stradale at a kerb or "wet" weight, including all fluids, as it is a road model. They are fairly close in actual weight. The Challenge ditches the airbags, power glass windows, air conditioning and uses lighter bumpers to lose weight compared to the Stradale but adds it back in with a full roll cage in steel, steel springs, steel brakes and bigger and heavier wheels. The extra seat in the Stradale counts for little as they are extremely lightweight. In the end I would guess the Challenge at about 50-100lbs lighter. Paul | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 603 Registered: 6-2001 |
Brian-check out this link. Specs on all Ferraris; http://www.ferrari.com/cgi-bin/fworld.dll/ferrariworld/scripts/gt/cars_oggi.jsp Click on "specifications" for each model. | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 238 Registered: 3-2003 |
Rick, thank you for the report, very encouraging. I definitely plan to run slicks on the car. Paul, group buy, count me in. I'd think Brian would join in, too. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 174 Registered: 3-2003 |
Could the US exhaust be the newer, quieter production version hinted at in a couple of British magazines? I certainly hope not. If it is, the original version will be worth it's weight in gold. Group buy, anybody?  | ||
| rick ramage (720)
Junior Member Username: 720 Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2003 |
hi will, i ran some of the statements that have been posted in this thread past a friend of mine who has a friend who works for ferrari. his source at ferrari kind of addressed some of the issues re: challenge vs. stradale to some degree. for what's it's worth here are his comments: "The 360 Challenge has no where near as advanced suspension as the CS purely in the materials used for example, control is the same and ride heights are adjustable on both cars to the same amounts. Challenge does not have Titanium suspension for example. Federal restrictions are irrelevant once an owner has the car he lowers the platforms like a Race car and install packers to suit too. The CS had the same increase in sway bar width also." "yes there are F1 software changes and there are no plans to move this onto the standard 360 as change speed has been concentrated upon. There are other internal changes too." "And for my point; put slicks on a CS with its better brakes, less rotating brake mass, equal dry weight, 50% more down-force and 25 more horsepower. Come on even Forest Gump could work that calculation out." i am trying to get a clear answer from this same source on the question of exhausts for US vs. europe cars. the initial feedback was the exhaust systems are the same. | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2003 |
The US v Euro exhaust has me thinking. Does anyone know whether the US ride height will be the same as ROW? Just concerned that US crash standards might require the car to be set at Modena levels. Maybe US buyers should automatically order some extra "parts": the Euro suspension (if at all different from US), Euro roll bar, Euro exhaust, and have all installed by the dealer before taking delivery? | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
Member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 259 Registered: 3-2003 |
>>but I am the kind of guy that preferes a night with Elle mcperson than 7 nights with cristina aguilera. << That is absolutely hilarious - well put. I couldn't agree with you more. A few people at the office are wondering why I am laughing out loud. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1304 Registered: 10-2002 |
I know someone who has driven all four models, albeit in different conditions and at different times... I can check with him to see if he has some insight to add to the perplexity here. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 403 Registered: 3-2002 |
... and driven the four side-by-side, in the same conditions. Right now, that would just be the factory guys. But we evidently can't trust what they say (per this thread, anyway). Thus, we are left to speculate. Given past articles doing side-by-sides of the Modena, Challenge, and GT, we can only hope that they will follow-up with another adding the Stradale to the mix. But then, we can't trust the magazine writers either... they are idiots, right. Oh well.  | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1302 Registered: 10-2002 |
Not to rain on anyone's parade here... but these numbers and projections seem somewhat speculative... as they say, "proof is in the pudding" I think the only way to get an accurate perspective is to ask someone who has driven all 4 models: 360 Modena, 360 Ch, 360 GT, and 360 CS. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 402 Registered: 3-2002 |
Solly, your numbers are way different than what's been published. 3065lb = 360 Modena 2822lb = 360 C Stradale 2800lb = 360 Challenge 2450lb = 360 GT I have numerous references that support these numbers; none that would give any credence to your numbers. With these numbers, you get: 0.131 hp/lb = 360 Modena 0.149 hp/lb = 360 C Stradale 0.143 hp/lb = 360 Challenge 0.178 hp/lb = 360 GT Where'd you get your numbers for the Challenge? | ||
| rick ramage (720)
Junior Member Username: 720 Post Number: 53 Registered: 7-2003 |
hi ben, i have seen one stradale (it was a european spec car) in person at an unveiling a couple months ago at beverly hills ferrari. i remember looking at the exhaust when they opened the engine lid. i only got a brief look but it looked like a highly polished miniature beer keg. i don't like the look of the stock modena exhaust so i was happy to see something cool in the stradale. i also heard the car myself. indoors. they fired it up and nailed it 3 or 4 times. it was exciting loud. it did not seem to be offensively loud or inappropriately loud. but i only heard a few serious raps... also, a friend of mine saw a US version of the stradale at the dealer in orlando (unfortunately they did not fire up the car while he was there). i had told him how cool the exhaust looked on the stradale so he opended the engine lid and took a picture of the exhaust and sent it to me. it was a *different* exhaust on this US car than i had seen weeks earlier on the european car (it looked like a miniature version of a stock modena exhaust). it appears that ferrari made one exhaust for european cars and perhaps a some what more subdued (at least relatively subdued) exhaust for US stradales. i'm sure it will still be much louder than a modena, but i bet it will not be as loud as the european car! has anybody else seen any differences between the exhaust systems on US vs. european stradales? | ||
| gian maria traversone (Giamma)
Junior Member Username: Giamma Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2002 |
The stradale has the same power to weight ratio of a 360 Modena with 500HP , with less inertia ( better lateral g) better bracking , better sound , better look, faster shifts, no more than 1000 units, you can go to the track and then stop for an icecream on the way home, and finally it is a FERRARI. There is nothing out there that matches this car. Of course you can get three 911 for the price of the CS... or 15 hondas civics.... or wathever... but I am the kind of guy that preferes a night with Elle mcperson than 7 nights with cristina aguilera. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 600 Registered: 6-2001 |
Brian, I wish you joy with your new toy. BUT: 1) Modena: Weight=3,064 lbs. Hp=400 Hp/Lb=.13 2) Stradale: Weight=2822 lbs. Hp=425 Hp/Lb.=.15 (add in a roll cage and fire suppession and you add at least 200 lbs. That brings your Hp/lb down to.14) 3) Challenge: Weight=2574 lbs. Hp=400 Hp/Lb.=.16 4) GT: Weight=2425 Lbs. Hp=435 Hp/Lb=.18 Brakes: I use slotted floating calipers with Ferodo DS3000 pads. Pads=$124 per set. Rotors=$250 per set (without hat, which almost never neds replacing). I go through front and rear pads every 3-5 track days. I can literally afford to replace the rotors and pads after every event and get the same stopping power as the CS. Power: The Challenge has more bhp/ton and a track-specific chassis setup. I just can't see the CS catching it all else being equal. I have the 3M plastic stuff all over my street car. Stops pebbles and grit, but has an affinity for high temperature rubber coming off other cars. Of course by the time I meet you Norwood will have strapped a blower onto the Challenge, and then we'll really have some fun. Anyway, to each their own, and I hope you enjoy it. Just be careful. Given the scarcity it does look set to be highly collectible. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 172 Registered: 3-2003 |
Ben, not yet. But I can't wait! I consider my 360 with Tubi way too quiet, if that tells you anything. My 355 with Tubi sounded better. My only concern with the CS would be startling some other motorists. I used to have a 65 Vette with open sidepipes and it scared the •••• out of kids and old people under WOT! You know what they say, you can never be too rich, too thin, or have a Ferrari that's too loud.  | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 896 Registered: 6-2002 |
Paul- have you heard one? In person? It's FAGGUING LOUD! I had read all the specs, seen the videos, yet I was unprepared for it being LOUDER than a blown/alcahol rail dragster (with 8 'zoomies' for exhaust) that was started up at the same car show I saw the Stradale at. It's amazing to be sure, but for those expecting just a tightened up, lighter Modena, beware. This is a RACE CAR that Ferrari snuck right by the EPA and DOT. I bet they had to get a sexy intern to sleep with someone... I'm very glad they did, but I expect some serious turnover. Best! Ben. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2003 |
I don't expect much turnover at all, Brian. Most of, if not all the customers dropping 200 large on the Stradale will be thoroughly knowledgable on the specs and are looking for that type of car. If not, the dealers will make it perfectly clear to them. It's not as if Ferrari is going to flood the US market with CSs. EVERY thing that they have done to the car is a major improvement in my eyes. All that I am left wishing for is a higher rev limit, but I guess you can't have it all. Also, almost every road test I have seen on the Stradale has commented on the surprising road comfort for such a hard-core "street racer." I feel that most of the guys that argue against the CS are not aware of how thoroughly comprehensive the changes are in comparison to a 360 Modena. I think about this car more often than I think about sex. Now THAT is an obsession. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 401 Registered: 3-2002 |
P.S. Dennis, I also agree with your opening point: I probably am the prototypical buyer for the CS. I really don't expect that the majority of the 360 buyers would even like to own the Stradale. I wager prices don't even hold up that well because I expect a lot of turnover as early buyers who are NOT planning to track it cannot imagine how anyone would want a car that loud, that coarse, that harsh, and so on. Based on that, I also considered just waiting for the turnover and hope to get one at a discount. But then I'd have to *wait* even longer... and couldn't order it exactly the way I want it! Okay, I admit it... I am obsessed with the CS... logic doesn't really stand a chance. I think I need to go visit my dealer... I need a fix of some sort... maybe they have a new brochure or something... | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 400 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dennis, you make good points, but you are speculating... as I am. I do NOT think the CS brake pads will cost $15K. Nor even rotors plus pads. I am sure they'll be costly, but I doubt they're that high. And from what I hear, they have a very long lifetime. Combined with lightweight and higher performance... I am gambling they will be a big win... I am hoping a really big win. To your points on stopping power, you forget the importance of subtle regulation on the track. Once you get beyond straight-line-only braking, the ability to regulate the brakes very smoothly becomes critical. This is where I am expecting the ceramic brakes to be phenomenal... when I trail off the brakes as I turn into the 270' right hander at the end of a 130mph straight and my back end gets loose and I am trying to delicately release the brakes to give my wheels a bit more cornering traction but not let the weight shift too much off the fronts... well, having brakes near the limit is very different than having brakes that are right in the middle of their sweet spot. You may be right on the F1... it may just be software and it may be offered on my Modena. However, given the controls have moved and things like launch control added... and given there are drivetrain weight differences... and given Ferrari is not really noted for advanced modular software... and given Ferrari is noted for keeping things exclusive just to keep them exclusive... I think its a fairly reasonable bet that the Stradale F1 system will not be available on the Modena. Again, we are both speculating. Note: I asked if the Stradale exhaust system would be made available to Modena owners. That would seem to be a no-brainer. The answers I got were "not likely" and "no". So, I don't think its a given us Modena owners will be able to upgrade to CS exhaust and F1 software. HOWEVER, I have thought long and hard about that. If you can upgrade, then that eliminates two big pieces of my argument. On the weight, I might take that Krispy Kreme bet (except that I don't really eat donuts anymore... trying to keep my weight down, as well as my Ferrari's ). Have you read all the lighter weight parts that the CS inherited from the GT? The Challenge really isn't that much lighter than the Modena... the GT is waaayyyyy lighter than the Modena. I do think its possible the CS matches the Challenge weight, though its unclear if those measurements were with windows or Lexan... if the latter, then the CS should still be close, but probably will be a bit heavier. Again, we are speculating... and I am probably a bit more optimistic than you. I agree on the tires... but then I can store an extra set of wheels with slicks at the track and swap those pretty darn easy, if that performance delta becomes important to me. But I doubt I will. Remember... My goal isn't absolute speed. I am not racing anybody. My goal is absolute fun. The feel of the car... the sensation of the road. And the best thing for that is lightening the unsprung weight... which is exactly what they did with the Stradale. And they increased the sound... which we all know makes a car seem faster and funner... even if the real speed doesn't change at all. And yes, I could get two for the price of the one... but for me, I'd rather have the "ultimate one" than two that both lack those sweet brakes, those lightened unsprung parts, that exhaust system, those... well, see that full list below. But I am speculating... I am gambling... I may be wishing I went with the two-car-alternative this time next year... and I can't wait to see how my bet turns out!!! | ||
| rick ramage (720)
Junior Member Username: 720 Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2003 |
i read something recently (i'll try to find the source) where ferrari was testing the ceramic carbon brakes (not sure if the testing was on an enzo or a stradale) and after thousands of laps the pads were only worn down about 50 percent. i have a friend who has a friend that works for ferrari and he said that the ceramic brakes wear very well and would not be a maintenance issue. i'll see if i can get get some feedback on how the ceramic brakes wear in comparison to the standard brakes on the modena. | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 236 Registered: 2-2003 |
This thread has definitely gotten really interesting.... Brian, you make some very good points. You're probably THE prototypical buyer for the CS. BUT... 1) Ceramic brakes. Nice? Sure. But keep a couple of things in mind. First, we've all heard the reports about the Enzo Ferrari (profiled in R&T) that needed a new set of brakes with only a few thousand miles on the odo. To the tune of $24,000. Yes, Enzo stuff is probably more expensive than what Ferrari will charge for the 360CS, but I'd bet that it'll still be at least $15k. You can go through quite a lot of standard pads and rotors for that! Second, undoubtedly, the ceramic brakes will resist overheating and fading a lot better, and will take more abuse (hopefully), but why would they result in a measureable decrease in stopping distance? If your ABS is kicking in when you brake (and it SHOULD, if you're cranking out fast laps), and if your brakes haven't gone away, your stopping distances should be the same because grip is limited by the TIRES and not the BRAKES (all other variables being equal). And, yes, if Brian runs long sessions on a hot day in Texas with lots of braking, he might overheat the Challenge brakes but not the CS brakes, but don't forget that HUGE price delta.... 2) Improved F1 system? It's just a software improvement, right? Betcha Ferrari will offer upgrades to the F1 system on the Modena. That's what they did with the updates to the Maserati.... 3) Launch control. "Sure, I may not use it too often... but that experience has got to be priceless." Well, it's not just the tires... it also puts a LOT of stress on the drivetrain, the clutch in particular. I've heard that in the European M3, which does have the Launch Control in its paddle shifting tranny, the computer logs each use of the Launch Control - and the warranty will expire after 10 uses. Ask yourself... how many smoky burnouts have you done with your 360 Modena? Why would you do that many MORE with the CS? And the launch control is useless on the track, unless you're racing from a standing start.... 4) If you really want two seats on the track, just install an OMP seat. As Jon Kofod as noted, it's the same seat. Heck, spend the extra $$$ and get the Ferrari Challenge logo on the seat too. 5) CS v. Challenge performance -- excuse my skepticism, but I'll bet a dozen Krispy Kreme that Ferrari is pulling monkeys out of its butt with respect to the weight specs on the CS. There is NO WAY that a CS is anywhere NEAR the Challenge. After all, the CS has more glass, more interior appointments, airbags, air conditioning, extra seat and belts, and who knows what else. So, despite the weight advantage of the brakes, the CS weighs more. Then there is the suspension. There is no way that the CS could have anything near a race suspension - it would never pass Federal height requirements. The difference in suspensions alone would make a major difference at most tracks. And if the Stradale is on street legal tires, forget it - heck, a WRX STi with slicks would probably be faster. To counter the weight and suspension difference, you have 25 extra horsepower and some different aerodynamics. But keep in mind that the Challenge is a lot closer to the ground.... BOTTOM LINE: Hey, for all of you that want a CS for the simple reason that you WANT a CS, more power to you!!! But don't kid yourself if you think that the Stradale will be faster than a 360 Challenge on the track. And remember, for the price of one, you can have two.... vty, --Dennis P.S. If you do get a Stradale but are lamenting that you can't get the rollcage or plastic windows, don't worry... you can order it separately and install it after delivery. . | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 872 Registered: 6-2002 |
Seats are definately smaller, though I didn't get to sit in the car, I could clearly see. I actually like the modena's optional carbon buckets better, wish they came in Alacantra. Best! Ben. | ||
| rick ramage (720)
New member Username: 720 Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2003 |
double check with your dealer, but all three dealers iv'e talked to have all made a point of telling me that the stradaler seats are smaller and that they would recommend extra large for me (i'm 6 foot 210 pounds). | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 398 Registered: 3-2002 |
Extra large? I was told they come in small, medium, and large. The seats in the CS that was touring from dealer to dealer were medium in size. And yes, they were a bit smaller than the racing seats in the Modena. I fit perfectly in the medium seats... but I am a pretty small guy. I decided to order large to better accommodate my more normal-sized guests and thinking of resale... the large should still be snug enough on the track... and will be a little more comfortable in day to day situations, especially during the winter. | ||
| rick ramage (720)
New member Username: 720 Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2003 |
one more thing. apparently the stradale racing seats are a bit different from the optional racing seats for other 360s. my dealer told me that the stradale seats are smaller so he recommended ordering extra large. i've talked to two different dealers and they both told me the same story. | ||
| rick ramage (720)
New member Username: 720 Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2003 |
i'm with you brian. i've decided to order a stradale also. i have a friend who has a friend who works for ferrari in a technical/service role of some kind. he was also involved for years with ferrari's challenge program in europe. he's a brit and doesn't get worked up too easily, but he knows the stradale and drove it at fiorano and was totally impressed/excited about it. he told my friend that it is the best car ferrari has ever made (his words not mine). he said this car was one to buy and KEEP. he also said the carbon ceramic brakes were simply amazing. a note about the carbon ceramic brakes. my dealer drove the car at fiorano and said the brakes make a dull scraping noise that sounds like normal disc brakes with worn pads. he said they also sometimes squeak momentarily when first applied (something about the brake dust on the rotors i believe). this is normal, but he wanted to pass the info on to me. i've read similar accounts in some recent car reviews. it's not a problem, it's just something different to make note of. last comment. the stradale has the same ford-sounding horn as the modena. i don't understand why ferrari installs traditional air horns in their 12 cyl cars and ford horns in the 360s although i don't think i've ever had reason to honk my horn since i've owned my modenas i went ahead and installed 355 air horns just in case... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6293 Registered: 12-2000 |
Brian, with all your I think you've made a good choice. I'm just crazy about the Stradale from what I've heard. I can't wait to see and hear one in person. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 397 Registered: 3-2002 |
Solly and Dennis both have good points overall. I couldn't argue with anyone deciding that way. And I've thought about doing that a few times. However, I'm buying a Stradale... why? 1) I want those ceramic brakes... both on track and on street. Bit of a gamble, I suppose, but I am expecting them to be exceptional. More than the expression on my passengers face when I slam their head into the seat with the accelerator, I love the look on their face as I am still accelerating towards a stop sign long after they would've have given up the intersection as missed... and then I stop the car on the white line. 2) I want that exhaust note... both on track and on street. Neither the Modena nor the Challenge can touch it, IMO. Look through these forums for all the raving on it. 3) I want the improved F1 system. Again a gamble... I love my Modena's F1; but from what I've heard, the CS is much better. 4) Launch control. Sure, I may not use it too often... but that experience has got to be priceless. I doubt I ever again change tires with anything but belts showing on the rear tires. 5) Superior handling, lightweight car on the street. Sure, on the street we are nowhere near the limits of any of the cars we are talking about. However, you do get a funner, more sporty feel the lighter the car is. Again, this is a gamble... not having driven one yet, I don't know whether this is worth much or not... but based on my experience in sports cars, the lighter weight, stiffer suspension, etc., should make the CS quite a bit more fun... even on the street. 6) I want that black/red alcantara interior... both on track (for the grippiness) and on street (for the look and feel). The Challenge has a very purposeful racecar utility to it... but the CS gives that perfect balance of comfort, class, and racecar-looks to my eye. 7) I want two seats both on track and on street. Sure, I could get a non-Ferrari seat added to the Challenge pretty cheap, but then offering my friends a ride in a Recaro seat takes something away from the experience. I own a Ferrari for having fun *with* my friends and family. Racecar on the street adds to that, too. 8) I like to drive my car to various events (track, autocross, rally, etc.)... I hate driving a truck with a giant trailer. Although driving my 360 to a rally or concors event is fun; driving a CS has got to be more fun! 9) I want the most beautiful car ever made... to my eyes, that's probably the Mclaren F1, then the F50, then the Stradale, then the 360 Modena. I can't justify the first two... but the third I can (see above)... and I do find the CS quite a bit more perfect than the Modena. So, I am getting a Stradale... and I feel really good about the decision. Hopefully, the same will still be true after I get it. Its entirely possible I sell it and get a Challenge and a Spider... who knows. But based on the above, I expect to be really happy with this decision. Only time will tell... | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 396 Registered: 3-2002 |
> 1) you go through tires like crap through a goose. You're on the wrong tires. Yes, if you put Hoosiers on it, then street driving will eat them up. If you put standard high performance tires on it, then track driving will eat them up. Put a set of Kumho ECSTA V700s on... they are cheap and will hold up well to both. (You'll get about 4000 miles of 1/3 track : 2/3 street to 1/2 : 1/2.) I like having Kumhos on the road. Caveat: you need to have a bad weather car... you don't want to be on those in a downpour. > 2) You go through brake pads and rotors even faster. I know the CS has unique > ceramic rotors, but pads are pads, and while metal rotors warp from the extreme > heat and abuse I can't imagine ceramic rotors not cracking at some point. Well, I am hoping for a lot more from those ceramic brakes. I am hoping for a track-quality setup without all the squeal on the street that I get with my current track pads on my 360 Modena. I am expecting them to actually last longer AND brake better than the Challenge brakes. The awesome ceramic brakes are reason #1 for going with CS vs. the alternatives. > 3) You destroy the look of your street car with burning hot rubber and all sorts of > other unidentifiable debris from other cars bonding themselves to your car. > The best detailer I know couldn't get some of the hot rubber marks out of the paint. > 4) Your paint will not stand up to the stones and pebbles thrown at high speed on the > track, and the front end will quickly look like a teenager with bad acne. Off track > excursions will make things much worse. Stongard can reduce the impact of a lot of that. Extra waxing of the lower panels can also help. But yes, your car will be a little rougher. However, my 360 modena has been marred more by driving on the street than driving on the track. I fear parking it in a public place more than mixing it up with people on the track. > As posted below the Challenge WILL eat the Stradale for breakfast, despite what you > read about fiorano track times. It's much lighter, has a better power to weight ratio > than the CS and is phonemonallly well balanced for the turns, something no car > designed to drive on a street could ever be due to the necessary compromises > in suspension geometry (softer) and wheels (heavier) necessary for street driving. Are you sure about that? The numbers I have seen have the GT much less than either the Challenge or the CS... but the CS is very close in weight to the Challenge. The CS has a bit more power. The Challenge is lower to the ground but the CS has better aero elements. The CS has better brakes. Given the same tires, I'd expect the CS to meet or beat the Challenge. HOWEVER, if you're driving the CS on the street, then you won't be on slicks... and in that case, you'll lose to a Challenge on slicks, no doubt. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 865 Registered: 6-2002 |
Neal- Big part of me wants to drive the 333sp on the road. What exactly are they going to do? Squad cars (and for that matter, helicopters..) can't exactly keep up... Stradale is an awesome idea, drive your Challenge car TO AND FROM the track, legally. With the ceramic brakes, it's supposed to out-break a Challenge car, and be within 1sec on lap times. It will be intresting to see! (the lap times I doubt, unless the brakes really just kill the standard C car.) Hell, I want a 360GT, who exactly is going to stop me from driving it right out the gate at Sears Point? Eh? 's what I thought... ;) Best! Ben. | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 232 Registered: 3-2003 |
"As posted below the Challenge WILL eat the Stradale for breakfast," We'll see! See you at the track next Spring ... PS - Agree with what you say about paint & debris, but don't see the difference between trashing the paint on my Challenge car v doing the same to my Stradale. The biggest worry I have with the Stradale out of the box is the lack of a cage. That WILL slow me down, and I don't need any help going slow. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 395 Registered: 3-2002 |
> Are you referring to an Aluminium roll cage or the fact that the 360 has a alloy frame? The fact that if you bolt a steel cage directly to an aluminum frame, the thing will literally fall out of your car after about a year or two. (The two metals cannot be left in contact with each other... one will eat through the other, so to speak.) As for rolling it 4 times... I assume you mean 4 rolls in one crash? If you've rolled it 4 separate times, you need to re-evaluate your hobbies. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 597 Registered: 6-2001 |
I didn't have this dilemma when I bought my 360 spider, but they announced the Stradale shortly before I bought my 360 Challenge, so I thought about getting the CS, selling the spider, not buying the Challenge car and saving $150k between both. But having tracked the spider before I bought the Challenge taught me some lessons: 1) you go through tires like crap through a goose. 2) You go through brake pads and rotors even faster. I know the CS has unique ceramic rotors, but pads are pads, and while metal rotors warp from the extreme heat and abuse I can't imagine ceramic rotors not cracking at some point. 3) You destroy the look of your street car with burning hot rubber and all sorts of other unidentifiable debris from other cars bonding themselves to your car. The best detailer I know couldn't get some of the hot rubber marks out of the paint. 4) Your paint will not stand up to the stones and pebbles thrown at high speed on the track, and the front end will quickly look like a teenager with bad acne. Off track excursions will make things much worse. Basically you will mess up a very nice street car. If you are going to track it most of the time and won't really drive it on the street you are much better off with a Challenge car. As posted below the Challenge WILL eat the Stradale for breakfast, despite what you read about fiorano track times. It's much lighter, has a better power to weight ratio than the CS and is phonemonallly well balanced for the turns, something no car designed to drive on a street could ever be due to the necessary compromises in suspension geometry (softer) and wheels (heavier) necessary for street driving. I agree that you would be much better off with a dedicated track car (the 355 CH is terrific) and a dedicated street car (360 modena?) for the price of a CS. Just think how much time the CS is going to spend in the shop if you track it. That means you are not driving it. My arrangement lets me enjoy my street car full time and the Challenge car has plenty of time to recuperate at the shop between events. | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
Member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 259 Registered: 3-2002 |
dennis raises an interesting point id like to hear more of. would most fchatter rather the 360cs or a 355c and a 360? i think id go with the cs. how about an enzo or 333sp for track and 360 spider for street at about same $. id definitely take the combo there. many more possibilites too | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 231 Registered: 3-2003 |
"when passion is involved there is not logic." Wish I had read this before writing my post. All I can say is, amen. | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 230 Registered: 3-2003 |
Dennis, how can a guy who owns a 355, a 996, a 740il, and other goodies, question the rationale for buying a Stradale?  Why pretend any of this makes any sense at all? Shucks, you can buy a relatively cheap race car that will humiliate both the Stradale and 360 Challenge on the track. I'm selling my 360 Challenge and buying a Stradale, so I guess the answer for me is that for $200k I'd rather have the Stradale. The Stradale has all sorts of interesting mods as compared to the 360 Modena, like the ceramic brakes, that speak to the enthusiast in me, but I can hardly make the case that the Stradale is a better "value" than your other examples. The only way I can "defend" my choice of a Stradale is to acknowledge it's indefensible, and then sleep outside the dealership waiting for it to arrive. My plan is to trailer the Stradale to the track, or have FoW take it to track events for me, and to drive it on the street. I'm saving a set of Challenge wheels and slicks for the Stradale, hope they fit. The better question to me is, am I going to be happy with the compromises that come along with trying to keep a track car street legal - the result just never seems to be great at both. The answer for me is that I can accept the compromises because I (and my wife) enjoy the sort of events for which the Stradale is eligible. By the way, the lack of a factory installed roll bar is a huge disappointment. I hate to put any aftermarket stuff in the car, but have been racing long enough to know better than to do too much without a bar or, better, a cage. Fire suppression would be great, rather than or in addition to an extinguisher. Great suggestions. | ||
| gian maria traversone (Giamma)
Junior Member Username: Giamma Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2002 |
dennis, those arguments you are giving do not apply to a car enthusiasts. They may apply to nonpassion kind of things, but when passion is involved there is not logic. Like why buying an Enzo , if you can buy a Saleen 7 ( as fast as a the Enzo) a raicing 911 RSR, a house at the beach, and a nice harley... GM | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 935 Registered: 11-2002 |
Brian,
Are you referring to an Aluminium roll cage or the fact that the 360 has a alloy frame? Aluminium roll cages are illegal in Australia and New Zealand and should be in all countries. After your third of fourth roll over, or cartwheel you will wish you have a steel cage too ... as the Alloy one will collapse by then. I would never race a car with an alloy cage, completely the wrong material for that use. Remember a 360 chassis is not designed for continual impacts like a rollover causes either, just to be rigid and pass a crash test (they do not have cartwheel type accidents in crash test legistration yet ). Thus install a steel cage with members across the floor to make a safety cell ... incase the worst happens  Pete | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 468 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dennis Why? To have this  and this  Gotta let those poor saps driving around in regular 360s know who is the king of the road | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 1294 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dennis , the Stradale is as fast around Fiorano as the Challenge or so Ferrari say ..on road tires ... | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 231 Registered: 2-2003 |
Here's a question to conventional wisdom. How much is the Stradale going to cost? What, ~$200k? For $200k, would you rather have the 360 Challenge Stradale, OR a. a nice 360 Challenge (~$100k) AND a nice 355 Berlinetta for the street (~$70k) AND a decent used truck and trailer (~$30k). OR b. a nice 355 Challenge (~$65k) AND a nice 360 Modena coupe (~$135k) (but no truck or trailer). Why do I ask? Well, the 360 Challenge will SMOKE the Stradale on the track. And the 360 Modena will make for a nicer, more comfortable car on the street. The 355 Challenge will not be much slower than the 360 CS, IF AT ALL - and if the 355C is on slicks, and the 360CS is on streets (even R compound street tires), forget it. So why wouldn't you want TWO cars that are better at their intended purposes than ONE car that won't be as good - because it'll be compromised? Sure, the 360 CS might be more fun than a stock 360 Modena fo rthe occasional blast around mountain roads, but if you use your car frequently and go to the track periodically, wouldn't you be better off with TWO cars? And yes, hauling a race car to the track is a bit of a PITA, but if you're not committed enough to do that, why wouldn't you just drive your 360 Modena on the track? Heck, why not get a nice used 360 Modena for $135k AND a nice 360 Challenge for $100k? That isn't THAT much more than a 360 CS... Just curious.... vty, --Dennis | ||
| Dean (Deanger)
Junior Member Username: Deanger Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2003 |
What is the deal with the windows? What is available when? Err... Not that I am thinking of ordering one, um...,er..., gulp... | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 394 Registered: 3-2002 |
A man after my own heart (I've ordered my Stradale with track use in mind)... Of the US street-legal options, choose: fire extinguisher and the alcantara seats (rather than leather). That's it. The factory-installed roll bar and harnesses aren't US-approved (darn it!). If you want those, you'll have to go after-market... but be sure to go with someone who knows Aluminum. Right now I am expecting the ceramic brakes to be fully up to the track demands. We'll see. I definitely am NOT going to nix the AC... the 360 has plenty of power... spending a few horses and a few pounds to keep yourself cool and comfortable is easily worth it... the whole point of track days in your Ferrari is to have fun, not to "win". | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 444 Registered: 11-2002 |
20psi twin turbos...that outta do it. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 1290 Registered: 10-2001 |
Maybe you can send it to Michelotto ? | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2003 |
Will, There are very few options available on the car, AC is standard, not an option. Basically, after choosing the colors for your exterior/interior, you have a choice of leather or cloth seats and lower dash, the stripe, a radio w/sub box, and a pre-wire kit. Then you have a few Carrozzeria Scaglietti options such as stitching on the seats and dash, colored brake calipers, and some other useless crap. That's about it. As far as "off menu" goes, you should look into some brake pads that will hold up to pure track use better than the stock units. A cage, 4 point belts and an extinguisher obviously are musts. Some electronics to raise the rev limiter would really benefit the car on the straights against those pesky GT2s. Paul | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
Junior Member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2002 |
Don't know if Factory authorized dealer can install rollcage. I ran into this with 996TT. Porsche dealer(even though it was a factory clubsport rollcage) for legal/safety reasons was not allowed by PCNA to install cage in my car. Had an independent do it. I plan on rollcage or minimum rollbar for my Stradale. need this as a minimum to run 165 tech speed in Silverstate open road races! | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 227 Registered: 3-2003 |
Good ideas - I definitely want to keep the car street legal in the US, so I assume I'll have to keep the headlights. But I like your style! | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
Member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 257 Registered: 3-2002 |
how about weight reduction like remove head lights, bumper and door reinforcements, lexan, etc? | ||
| rick ramage (720)
New member Username: 720 Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2003 |
order the stripe. makes the car look like it's going faster | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3041 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ask if they can install a factory cage, fire suppression system, a tricked out suspension, maybe polyurethane or even metal suspension bushings. Anybody know if its possible to run a hose directly from the AC into your racing suit ? That would be great so you wouldnt have to get a cool suit | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 226 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hello all, I will be ordering a Stradale in November, and would like to make it relatively "track friendly" as possible in the US, while keeping it street legal. Some decisions would be easy - no radio, for example. A/c might be my principal compromise, because the summers here are quite hot. My dealer (FoW, great group) has been extremely helpful, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask here a general question about performance options. Anything "off the menu" I should consider? I plan to use the car at club events and track days, and I don't mind noise, harsh ride, etc on the street. Thanks, Will |