| Author | Message | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 195 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dodge under-rated the Gen2 motors. 450crank was a joke, more like 450RWHP. MM | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2979 Registered: 9-2001 |
So I guess that means that a car with a low revving truck engine will outrun every production Ferrari ever made except the Enzo. I have had 6 Italian cars badged as Ferraris and loved each of them. I have also owned a 1998 Viper GTS and found it as much fun as a Ferrari most of the time. While the Viper interior was a little cheap, it ran like a scalded dog in heat. Plus,I put over 60k miles on it in 3 years and had no problems whatsoever except for about 5 sets of tires and a few sets of brake rotors. I believe the 30k service cost me $450 or so. Next time you want to make fun of a Viper, go to a local Viper Club meet at a local road course and run your Ferrari up against one...Good Luck ! Jeff, the new Viper is 500HP, not 450. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 462 Registered: 8-2002 |
Wayne, Never said I didn't like Vipers, whats not to like about 450hp? | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
Junior Member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jeff I've owned half a dozen Ferraris 288GTO,F-40,Testarossa etc. and only one Viper 96 GTS and I'll tell you this... don't sell these cars SHORT they are really incredible in many respects! | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm proud of my ex-truckengined-powered-car  MM | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 193 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Ironic how Viper owners always need to quote torque and hp stats when comparing to Ferrari" Funny how F-car owners want to put down anything that doesn't rev to the stratosphere. MM | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 697 Registered: 5-2002 |
--Since peak TQ is basically a function of displacement, breathing, and compression....You would have to blow this motor to 20+PSI to get 500 lb-ft at 'any' RPM Count me in  | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 457 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ironic how Viper owners always need to quote torque and hp stats when comparing to Ferrari. When Dodge released the design info for the V10 Viper engine they stated in the press releases the engine is from the Ram truck. Don't mean to burst your bubble but a 2 valve pushrod engine that revs to 6000rpm is a truck design, no matter what alloys are used in its manufacture. | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 192 Registered: 11-2002 |
The point is it's easy to compare engines that are built for two entirely different purposes. I'm used to the truck engine comments, got that all the time from those who don't know any better. MM | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1047 Registered: 4-2002 |
"How about a Ferrari making a car with 500hp at 3000rpm." Even Vipers dont get 500 HP until around 5000 RPMs. "A Viper V10 is a slightly modded 6000rpm truck engine," Except that not a single part in the Viper engine is common with the V10 truck engine. Lightly modded indeed. Block V=al, T=iron; Crank V=forged, T=cast; Heads V=al, T=iron; It took the Lamborghini guys 1.5 years to convert the truck engine into the Viper engine..... "I'd like to see a 3L hit 500lbs/tq damn near off idle." Since peak TQ is basically a function of displacement, breathing, and compression: a NA 3L motor with streetable compression is limited to 220 lb-ft. You would have to blow this motor to 20+PSI to get 500 lb-ft at 'any' RPM. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2975 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, that's a lame comparison ! How about a Ferrari making a car with 500hp at 3000rpm. | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 191 Registered: 11-2002 |
"A Viper V10 is a slightly modded 6000rpm truck engine, I'd like to see a Viper engine hit 8000rpm then see how long it would last." Ummm... I'd like to see a 3L hit 500lbs/tq damn near off idle. Mr. Apple, meet Mrs. Orange. MM | ||
| TOM BUCKLEY (Tom_b)
Junior Member Username: Tom_b Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2003 |
Ben, I think it is a tragedy. Last year I remember seeing an ad for an F40 which proudly stated, '...850 miles, 30,000 service done'. Somebody should rescue these cars. Any volunteers for the Buckley Ferrari Rescue Squad. AKA ---Buckley's irregulars. Tom | ||
| John Striegel (John328)
New member Username: John328 Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2003 |
Has anyone taken in their 700/800 series BMW or 500/600 series M-Benz into the dealership for a full service. It an't cheap by Ferrari standards. If Ferrari had resonable prices for parts it would not be that bad John | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 886 Registered: 6-2002 |
Anyone else think that a bit of a tradgety? You see all these ads "8,000 miles, 30k service done" Best! Ben. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2971 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bill, I think you're correct if the Ferrari is driven that 52,500 miles in "normal" use of 5 years or so. However, the average Ferrari will not be driven 52,500 miles in 10 years or longer necessitating a cam belt due to time rather than miles. When I first got my Boxer it was 21 years old with 12,xxx miles. | ||
| Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member Username: Chevarri Post Number: 155 Registered: 1-2003 |
"for long-term reliability, i'd probably pick kyosho over mattel and maisto ;-)" I personaly fancy Bburago models now. | ||
| Bill V (Doc)
Member Username: Doc Post Number: 433 Registered: 9-2001 |
I believe that most Ferrari owners are a bit over-zealous re: maintenance. The engines are pretty-much bullet-proof and, if you look at the manual recommendations for belts, it really is the same as many other cars--ie inspect /adjust @ 30K miles and replace at about 52,000 miles under normal use. Some have hypothesized that the absolute necessity to change the belts was created by dealers for $$ reasons. Of course, if the car is tracked or driven very hard, the 30k belt change probably is a good idea . Anyway--check the manuals and you may be surprized. | ||
| leonard renick (Broomhilda)
New member Username: Broomhilda Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2003 |
I purchased a 2000 550 with 18,000 miles on it from an authorized Ferrari dealer. I asked the price of the 30,000 mile service and was told by the sales manager that Valves no longer need to be adjusted and the service would be under $ 3,000. This dealership is no longer an authorized Ferrari dealership. I have priced the 30,000 mile service over the phone with 3 authorized dealerships here in Calif. 3 diff. prices- 7,500...5,500...6,000 With 6,000 miles to go now I am saving up for the big expense. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 805 Registered: 10-2001 |
Solly- So you can change the belts at 30k in a 360 without taking engine out of car? Or do you still have to take the engine out of 360's for the 30k service? Porsche has such a small trunk. Do they have engine-out service at 60k? Ferrari is a race company that never cared about their road cars. Just a way to pay for my race program.- Enzo You have to look at the History. Since a F1 race-car gets rebuilt after each race. 30k miles seems like a life-time to a Ferrari design engineer that got stuck in the street car division. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 866 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'll say one thing, F-cars are pretty bulletproof if you do the 15k and 30k services ontime. When's the last time you heard of a Ferrari's engine "blowing" ? That said, I'd like to see the belt intervals extended to 50-60k like all other cars in the world... But it won't happen, dealers still have to make money after all. Best! Ben. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 598 Registered: 6-2001 |
Actually the 360 is fairly maintenance free and easy to service. Even the belt change at 30k is fairly simple. i watched my mechanics remove the seats and the rear access panel on the Challenge car, change the belts, adjust the valves and put in a new tensioner in about 3 hours. The labor rate ($75/hr) is comparable to labor rates at my local garage. The parts are another story. They are ridiculously expensive. Luckily we just found an after-market source for rotors and pads that are much better than stock Ferrari, at 1/2 the price. Thank god the car is still under warranty. | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Member Username: Beast Post Number: 337 Registered: 5-2003 |
Gabe; one thing to remember on the Ducati is the fact that it does not have valve springs. so clearacnce adjustments are critical to prevent burning up the valves and seats Rob | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Member Username: Beast Post Number: 336 Registered: 5-2003 |
Take a look at a lot of the newer import vehicles out there. My dad bought a new Toyota Tacoma truck and he did not belive myself when i told him that the cams had to be pulled out so that the valves could be adjusted. When he took it in for a 30K service he found out the hard way. No it was not as costly as a Ferrari service but needless to say it was not your average oil+filter service either. | ||
| Gabe V (Racerxgto)
Junior Member Username: Racerxgto Post Number: 110 Registered: 4-2003 |
As an overall cost of ownership, its cheaper than marriage. If you were to rank them, low maintenance performance cars are japanese. Ferrari, a passion and racebred spirit will require TLC. The timing belt issue gets me. Ferrari had its reasons for switching from chain to rubber. But if they bring back the chain, combined with F1 tranny, there just may be something there for the long haul. (Didn't know about the Ducatti valve thing, holy sheist! every 3K miles? I don't RPM off into never land, hydraulic lifters please) | ||
| Steve B (Sjb509)
New member Username: Sjb509 Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2003 |
This is a topic I have been wondering about for a long time. While I do not presently own a Ferrari, as an outsider looking at this world of Ferrari ownership it seems that the intensive maintenance required of a Ferrari could be greatly improved by changing the engine design. I personally don't buy the "racecar for the street" reasoning for the maintenance schedule. Look at a Honda S2000, no $5k tuneups at 30,000 miles. To Mr. Green's point, however, it appears as though Ferrari is making their cars less maintenance intensive in general (such as no valve adjustment from the 355-on). Perhaps when the 360 replacement is unveiled it will have a cam chain instead of the belt, or even better, gear drive that would have less maintenance and still be very exotic. At the risk of offending current owners, the entire debate over preventative maintenance seems a little silly. I've read on this forum that Ferrari maintenance is analogous to aircraft maintenance. One key thing to remember however: if your Ferrari quits, you call a tow, while in the airplane you most likely die. While I respect the perfectionism that some owners demand of their cars, it does get old reading things over and over to the effect of: "YOU HAVE 30,004 MILES ON THOSE BELTS! OH MY GOD GET THEM CHANGED TONIGHT!!!" If Ferrari made an engine that was maintenance free it would make most of these debates moot. Please keep in mind as I make these comments that I too have a vehicle with arcane maintenance procedures: a Desmoquattro Ducati. My owners manual states that the valves need inspection and clearance adjustment every 3000 km (1800 mi!). rather than pay someone $600 each time, I bought the tools and do it myself (albeit every 6k miles, the current interval). When I bought the Ducati 7 years ago I joked that due to maintenance requirements it was my "Ferrari trainer". However as my search for a sports car begins I now find myself drawn to low-maintenance high-performance cars. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 797 Registered: 2-2001 |
I think the 15k service is a minor one. Plugs, fluids etc and the 30k is the big one with all of the belts. I am coming up on my 15k and thats what I was thinking. I use minor loosely as it is still around $1500 I believe. | ||
| TOM BUCKLEY (Tom_b)
Junior Member Username: Tom_b Post Number: 69 Registered: 6-2003 |
I've been racing for over 20 years and have owned my Ferrari for 3. I've never had a camshaft "polished". I've replaced many camshafts, however. My Ferrari has 70,000 miles on it. Tom | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 597 Registered: 10-2001 |
The simpler the car, the less maintenance (I think that's the right spelling). I mean, what can go wrong on a dino 246? Basically nothing you can't fix at home and every 50,000 miles just spend $5-10k on a rebuild and there you go. Happily ever after. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 448 Registered: 8-2002 |
A Viper V10 is a slightly modded 6000rpm truck engine, I'd like to see a Viper engine hit 8000rpm then see how long it would last. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3058 Registered: 2-2001 |
well a major service every 15,000 means removing & polishing the cams, adjusting the valves & more. Its not a rebuild but its a lot more than a lube & oil change | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 795 Registered: 2-2001 |
William, You mean service every 15k to 30k, not rebuild...right? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3053 Registered: 2-2001 |
biggest difference between US cars & Ferraris besides tech & $ is displaement. The F40 has a tiny engine by US standards of well under 300 Cid but with 2 turbos it makes almost 450 hp & its a hell of a car. But a large Cid engine like the Viper or 60s Muscle will have a longer life & thus less maintenance than a small highly stressed engine like the F40 or other Ferrari. The euros finally seem to be embracing the US belief in Cid, look at the MB with its new 6.0 making huge power. The Lambo Murcielago has a 6.0 & even the 575 Ferrari almost reaches 6.0, Those are all failry large engines by US standards in 2003 | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
Junior Member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 57 Registered: 8-2002 |
.. | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
Junior Member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2002 |
William Can point to my personal experience.. I put 73000 miles on 96 GTS. I had top end of motor modified . Car put out 511 rear wheel HP on motor 685 RWHP on nitrous 817/ft lbs torq. I put 123-15# bottles of nitrous through that motor NEVER A PROBLEM!! End of story......... | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1714 Registered: 11-2001 |
maintenance-free ferrari? yeah, that'd be a 1/18 ferrari ;-). for long-term reliability, i'd probably pick kyosho over mattel and maisto ;-) doody. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3048 Registered: 2-2001 |
Vipers are FAR from bullet proof, Ive seen several Viper engines explode at tracks & their brakes suck too | ||
| G. Green (Mr_green)
Member Username: Mr_green Post Number: 278 Registered: 8-2003 |
Wayne, Excellent point! | ||
| wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
Junior Member Username: Bad_tt Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2002 |
Tom Can't buy the "builds too few " cars argument. Viper produces 1500-2000 cars per year and they are virtually bullet-proof performers. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3047 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferraris are as close to street legal mass marketed race cars for the street as you can buy. Of course in the UK you can get a radical for the street or a lotus Exige GT1 but in the US a ferrari is it. Race cars require a lot of maintenance cus their engines are usually small highly stressed powerplants. A real race car may require an engine rebuild after every race so for a Ferrari to require a rebuild every 15,000 to 30,000 miles is pretty good. Toyota makes engines that can run until the cars components rust out before the engine needs a rebuild but these are not race cars | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 584 Registered: 9-2002 |
No such thing, Ferrari builds to few cars to be able to truely make a reliable car. G.M. makes hundreds of thousands of the same model car. They can fix the problems as they arise with the early cars and continue production with the remedy in the newer cars. Ferrari does not have that capability. When your building only 3500 cars a year..It takes some time to find out the problems with the car, report it back the the engineering department and then engineer a fix. It's cheaper for them to repair each car as a individual unit then stop production until a new component or whatever can be re-engineered. | ||
| Bert Kanters (Bert308)
Junior Member Username: Bert308 Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2002 |
We Ferrari drivers like the high maintanence myth about our cars. It makes ordinary people admire us even more. This was not a serious answer. | ||
| G. Green (Mr_green)
Member Username: Mr_green Post Number: 276 Registered: 8-2003 |
I read alot of posts about people servicing there F-cars. It seems part of the F-car mystique is the expensive maintanance. I was just wondering if Ferrari came out with a very low maintanence car would people buy it. |