| Author | Message | ||
| L. (Testaroja)
Junior Member Username: Testaroja Post Number: 191 Registered: 5-2003 |
I made a mistake typing "also" 2 times, I don't mean they are the same person, just in case. | ||
| L. (Testaroja)
Junior Member Username: Testaroja Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2003 |
Rich stephens, also the Murcielago was design by a man from Peru and the chief designer for the new Ford GT is also hispanic also Camilo Pardo, he is still latin but not italian. | ||
| luciano favero (Ontogenetic1007)
New member Username: Ontogenetic1007 Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2002 |
>The British and Italians both seem to design from the heart, not the head. So you get great looking cars (IMHO) with strange, strange engineering. To continue my blatant stereotyping, the Germans make it so it never breaks but no real style; the Americans put luxury over everything else but still amke the best electrical systems, the Japanese combine German engineering, American electrics but lact the passion of the Italians. The French don't seem to be renoun for anything! French designs aren't usually beautiful, particularly well made, innovative or even very interesting. What's up with that??? *putting my broad brush away* French design and engineering have been/are some of the most innovative and beautiful. >The French don't seem to be renoun for anything! Would suggest a visit to the public library, however, I expect the real problem is the brush. >Americans put luxury over everything (brush) American luxury = oxymoron = kitsch British. Italians. Germans. Japanese. French. North Americans. Anything missing? >blatant stereotyping C'est rien. Human intelligence revolves (80%) around pattern recognition. PSk (Psk) - >That is why the Italian auto industry is struggling in the mundane level, ie. mass production >ie. they cannot make cars correctly for that level (ie. cost effective and reliable, etc.), >and if you look back in history their best cars have been for the top end of the market. ie. low production >Emotions I imagine are very close to the surface with Italians ... As Godard suggested and Damasio verified: ideas do exist in emotions. Incidentally Italy has the highest per capita number of designers in the world and USA, the highest per capita incarceration rate ... >- Italy needed something else to poor their passion into As do Americans  Stammi bene, L. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 631 Registered: 10-2001 |
What I find interesting is that so many of the classic designs to come out of the Italian design houses have been done by non-Italians and this includes designs for Ferrari: Tom Tjaarda in the past and now Ken Okuyama. | ||
| G. Olivieri (Plip)
New member Username: Plip Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2003 |
Hi Dave, Mille Miglia (italian for Thousand miles) is an historial re-edition of a race which was run until 1957 i believe. It starts in Brescia (Nord Italy) touches Rome and return back to Brescia for a total mileage of abt a thousand miles. It is run ever year and cars allowed to participate has to be the same model of the cars which originally run the race in the 50's. Today is actually a trial run, even if, believe me, few owners just do not care abt the classification and go full blast. Every year there are cars from all over the world, USA, Japan, even from Aussi. For more detailed info suggest to see at: http://www.millemiglia.it. They also have the webpage in English. Regards Plip | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1026 Registered: 11-2002 |
Passion. Lets face the Italians, while not necessarily the best at motorracing, love the sport the most and that it was makes their road cars better to all of us. The cars all must have that involvement with the driver that other brands cannot come close to. Add on top of that the passion in designing and you can see it is hard for an Italian to design anything without putting their heart into it. Emotions I imagine are very close to the surface with Italians ... - America needed transport. - England needed an industry. - Germany needed to prove their self believed superiority. - Japan also needed an industry and to show the world how to build cars properly ... exit 90% of the English industry. - Italy needed something else to poor their passion into, and to discuss for hours in the pubs while drinking red wine That is why the Italian auto industry is struggling in the mundane level, ie. they cannot make cars correctly for that level (ie. cost effective and reliable, etc.), and if you look back in history their best cars have been for the top end of the market. Pete | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2001 |
If it wasn't for the styling I would never have had the interest for any Italian made car as the technology has always been behind the Germans and the Japanese made vehicles. Obviously styling is the most important thing for the majority of the reasons choosing a vehicle especially if your paying high dollar. Picture a modern Testarossa with a square front end with bench chairs upfront or a 360 with square headlights and a boxy body. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1209 Registered: 10-2001 |
The British and Italians both seem to design from the heart, not the head. So you get great looking cars (IMHO) with strange, strange engineering. To continue my blatant stereotyping, the Germans make it so it never breaks but no real style; the Americans put luxury over everything else but still amke the best electrical systems, the Japanese combine German engineering, American electrics but lact the passion of the Italians. The French don't seem to be renoun for anything! French designs aren't usually beautiful, particularly well made, innovative or even very interesting. What's up with that??? *putting my broad brush away* | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 630 Registered: 8-2001 |
What is the Mille Miglia? How often is it ran? Etc. | ||
| matt green (Mattg)
Junior Member Username: Mattg Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2003 |
britain and italy they breed insane genius = great cars | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 579 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes...the Italians have a passion for living life to the fullest. Recently during a gathering to honor the greatest automotive designers and sylists of all time, that the top 5 were Italian....that is simply astounding. And they all grew up within a hundred miles of each other....just unbelievable! | ||
| G. Olivieri (Plip)
New member Username: Plip Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2003 |
I tend to agree with William H. As far as i am concerned (and i am Italian) is the spirit of enjoying life that it is translate into masterpieces, no matter if it is a piece of art, a pair of shoes or a car.....related to cars there is surely behind that, an old tradition of mechanical engeneering which has been able to re-new itself, and therefore survive, until today. Incidentally, the biggest concentration of sport cars are made in a relatively small region of Italy (Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, but also Ducati and other factories) are only a couple of hundred Km from each other. Maybe it is because, as my wife alwys says (and she is NOT Italian), italians have gasoline flowing in thier veins....I think she is right. All those who have had the chance of assisting at the historical edition of the Mille Miglia, in Italy will know what i am talking about. People just stand along the narrow streets going throught their villages clapping hand and waiving at the passage of this old race cars. To be noted, that the race is not done on a circuit, but on open road, and with the normal daily traffic. Crazy ?? Maybe but definitely an unforgettable scenario. Sempre Forza Ferrari !! Plip | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
Junior Member Username: Donv Post Number: 180 Registered: 1-2002 |
Unless something has changed very recently, Porsche is an independent company. It is not owned by VW. For many years in the US, Porsche and VW combined their US operations, but even this is no longer the case. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 445 Registered: 8-2003 |
Probaly because Italian design-Fashion,furniture,and cars, has always been on the "leading edge" of "modern" design. Their Fashions are still on the forefront. Their furniture design is even somewhat,"avant garde"-lots of glass,frosted glass,Stainless steel and wood. So,it only makes sense that their cars are innovative an unusual,too. Modern,yet,classic. Timeless design. | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 422 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think you'll find that Porsche are still indepenant | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Member Username: Davel Post Number: 314 Registered: 7-2001 |
Ferrari employed an Asian designer for a number of vehicles including the Enzo. Nationality is of little worth anymore given the level of integration or ownership of major industries,vehicles included. Lambo as well. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Intermediate Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 1124 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jason: >>>What do you mean? Porsche, VW, and BMW are all idependant still. VW has owned Porsche for AGES... On the original question: With the exception of some Porsche models and a couple of "modifiers / tuners" I don't believe that Germany builds any true sportscars. They DO build, however, a number of very solid, very fast cars. I think that the reason why both Britain and Italy are long term sports cars producers is because it is in their nature to compete. Give two Britons each a lawnmower and they will race eachother for the heck of it. Give two Italians each a lawnmower and the will race eachother to prove their manlihood (sp?). Having this in your genes (or jeans in the latter case) makes it easy to see why "competitive products" come from these countries. Join this with the presence of an industrial base and there you go. As for design: I couldn't care less for most British designs but that is only a matter of taste and yes, Aston martin is THE exception to this rule for me. Again a matter of genes I guess, Italy has the world's bst designers, be it for fashion, cars etc. It is a "latin touch" for which I have no further explanation... Jack | ||
| Ryan Alexander (Ryalex)
Junior Member Username: Ryalex Post Number: 125 Registered: 8-2003 |
Along with all of the previously mentioned about Italy I might add a cultural tendency for excess or extreme - finest clothes, the finest cars, the finest wines, the most Euro-Barbie-like women on TV, the most passion, etc. Whether they are on the edge of everything is questionable, but certainly Greeks don't have the kind of flair or panache the Italians do (or maybe it's pride/overconfidence). The French, while having seemingly good engineering, have not come through in design or performance for the past few decades... even the nicest looking French car, IMO, the Peugeot 406, is Pininfarina designed! The British, well, they're owned by Germans and Americans now :-). But I wish TVR would come to America! Oh, BTW, someone tell Lotus to redesign the Esprit already. Awesome car, but that nose is dated (and not aging like the 3x8). I think one of the saddest things is that excessive European taxes and automobile maintenance/running costs have relegated many companies to making tin can cars. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 621 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks everyone for the information. Learned very much. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3284 Registered: 2-2001 |
From a design point of view the Italians are simply the best in the world. nobody even comes close. Must be 2500+ years of art & empire. In engineering the Germans may be the best followed by the US & Japan Italians are of course from a latin culture, maybe they just have more joie de vivre than the germans & brits, which along with their design sense makes their sportscars so great | ||
| Jason L. Oliver (Jasono)
New member Username: Jasono Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Witness the three manufacturers in Germany that consolidated to two (Porsche, VW, BMW)." What do you mean? Porsche, VW, and BMW are all idependant still. Are you thinking Mercedes or Audi? | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 376 Registered: 5-2003 |
It's the stump. The tree stump where Pinin Farina hand formed those lovely panels.  (Add a racing enthusiast to A.L.F.A., and the competition suddenly has to keep up. Compare the US in the late '70s, where the K-car represented the declining standards.) | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 421 Registered: 9-2002 |
England's sports car industry stems from the dawn of motoring (AC have been making sporting cars since the start of the 20th century producing cars such as the legendary Ace and Cobra'sof the 50's and 60's), but Lotus, TVR etc started just after WW2 when there where very few new cars on the market (most were exported to pay for wining the war) so lotus and some of the others started by modifying small Austin�s Morris and Fords etc this lead to lots of little manufacturers making cars out of mass production bits, over the years most have died out, but our rules and regs for small volume production still make it possible to make small runs of cars (caterham, Westfield, Lotus, Morgan, TVR, Jensen.etc.) We also have a relatively large and exceptionally innovative racing car production industry with the majority of cars F1 car being produced here, this has some great spin off's, the Ford GT40, Ultima Spyder and Light car co Rocket being just a couple of examples. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
New member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think that the answer is the same for all industries. A couple of pioneers are successfull, create an environment for subcontractors to develop & flourish, the state catters for appropriate education programs to provide skilled blue and white collar workers, which in turn attracts more industries in the same field. This is why you seldom find industries which are successfull yet totally isolated in a given region/country (there are notable exceptions). Now why these pioneers were there in the first place and got successfull may well be purely circumstancial, unless the primer or catalyst was a state incentive program. In the case of the Modena area in Italy, I believe it simply comes from E. Ferrari's relative success as a racing team manager. If you take other examples such as the semiconductor industry, Taiwan's success is the pure product of a highly successfull state program initiated by a visionary man. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 752 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave - an interesting question, but I question your premise that Italy has cornered the market on design of sports cars. The French have produced some very interesting Renaults and Peugeots. Automobile production requires an industrial base, and Italy, France, and Germany meet this requirement. Furthermore, pre 2nd War, there were a number of small companies producing specialty cars (CisItalia, for example) throughout Europe, but post-war economic depression found many unable to sustain a business model. It was those companies that contributed to war-time industrialization that were able to migrate to consumer products (BMW, Volkswagen, Fiat, etc.). Thus, the 2nd half of last century saw a consolidation of automobile production into to a number of companies, the number defined by competition and what the market would bear. Witness the three manufacturers in Germany that consolidated to two (Porsche, VW, BMW). Look at Fiat in Italy, and the difficulty that Alfa, Masserati, Lamborghini, Fiat have co-competing in a market with population of approximately 60 million people (domestic). Finally, more apropos to your question, design requires a certain "culture" that cultivates. For example, German design, in my opinion, more closely follows function - technical. Italian design, from a culture of Latin descent, is more artistic. Yes, Spain has the same heritage (Latin), but lacks the industrial base. Just my thoughts. Jim S. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 947 Registered: 2-2002 |
Detroit had a strong industrial base prior to the advent of the automobile. Detroit was the Stove Capital of the World before it was the auto capital. I doubt that water transportation had much to do with it, but it sure didn't hurt. As Doody points out, once the industry took hold new companies were started by employees or suppliers who decided to go their own way. Walter P. Chrysler was an engineer who learned his trade as a machinists apprentice at Union Pacific Railroad. After a career in railroading he moved to Buick where he eventually became President and General Manager before starting his own company. The Dodge Brothers were suppliers to Ford before starting their own car company. The Chevrolet Brothers, Louis, Gaston and Arthur, were racing drivers. Louis designed the Chevrolet for W. C. Durant, who joined a number of brands together to form General Motors. Durant named the car after it's designer because he like the sound of the name and because the brothers had a great reputation in motorsports. Durant built horse drawn carriages prior to moving into the auto industry. David Buick was a plumbing supply manufacturer who invented a process for heat-binding porcelain to wrought iron. Ransom E. Olds was the son of a blacksmith and store owner who worked in the family business and tinkered with engines on the side before striking out on his own. Henry Ford learned about engines as an apprentice in a machine shop. He later worked part time for the Westinghouse Engine Company. While an employee of the company that eventually became Detroit Edison he tinkered in his garage and built his first automobile. Later he became friends with Thomas Alva Edison and Harvey Firestone. Ford's grandson married Firestone's grandaughter and two families and companies became inextricably entwined until the Firestone tire debacle. If their is one common thread it is probably the fact that Detroit had a strong industrial base and many machine shops where inventive souls had the tools and support necessary to experiment; and once their dreams took hold there was an infrastructure to build parts in quantity. Few people recall that the boating industry was taking hold in Michigan at the same time. The abundance of lakes and waterways had a lot to do with this. Chris Smith and his family in Algonac started Chris-Craft and Gar Wood, the inventor of the dump truck, spent his fortune building and racing boats under his own name. Even today, Michigan has more registered boats than any other state in the Union. | ||
| Greg G (Greg_g)
Junior Member Username: Greg_g Post Number: 84 Registered: 7-2003 |
vest designers? you mean like Armani and Versace? LOL J/K | ||
| Jonas Petersen (Karsten335)
Member Username: Karsten335 Post Number: 603 Registered: 11-2002 |
Because they have the vest designers? Pininfarina, Bertone and so on dont know, but that's my guess. They seem to be the first with everything in fashion and so on. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 619 Registered: 8-2001 |
LOL, true, but I am always willing to learn! | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 559 Registered: 12-2002 |
Just shows how much you understand about your fore-fathers Dave !! | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 618 Registered: 8-2001 |
D, What you say makes sense and I am sure that is part of it. However, there might also be other factors. When I was consulting in Cincinnati, I was talking to some people over lunch about the local economy and all the empty paper mills north of where we were working. The conversation turned to autos. I asked why Detroit. They said it was due to the work ethic (lower costs for the cars, but other places have good work ethics), availability of raw materials, and availability of good water transporation. Do not know if this is true, but that was their opinion. | ||
| fanatic (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 510 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'd just say that since Italian Men get the most girls, then they needed the coolest cars to go along with them!!! (Yes, I'm italian) | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1880 Registered: 11-2001 |
my guess: one disruptor and geography. at some point, someone in italy decided to make a sports car line. for whatever reason he did it. and then if that one person is successful, geography works in the industry's favor and his people leave to start their own sports car endeavors and so on and so on. i assume that the big us automakers being all in/around MI wasn't a geographical accident, right? (i don't know - i'm just guessing). and once a new spanish entrant sees six sports car companies in italy, well, they think twice about starting another sports car company/line. doody. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 617 Registered: 8-2001 |
I was looking through the On-Line Accessory Catalogs, and it struck me how many fun sport cars are/were made in Italy. I was wandering why in Italy. Surely there are other countries with similar climates, maybe Greece would be one of them. There are other countries with art histories. Greece would be a good example. But Greece does not make sports cars that I know of. The only other two that come to mind are Germany and England. Germany for the engineering. Not for sure how England got in there - they seem conservative for sports cars. So why did Italy end up making so many sports cars? |