| Author | Message | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 934 Registered: 4-2003 |
I found some more info in a Forza article from May 2002 titled Metal Sculpture. Apparently there is no full body heat treatment done to the chassis once assembled. The heat effected zones, joints etc were all designed to be sufficiently stong as is. The article also states that the primary alloy is 6008. | ||
| Dave Janes (Sparetireless)
Junior Member Username: Sparetireless Post Number: 171 Registered: 1-2003 |
If they are 6000 series, the alloy is heat treatable and is most likely heat treated when it leaves the factory. We have done some heat treating for the entire chasis on the Shelby. When someone welds the chasis the area of the weld will become annealed or softened. Any welding on the chasis will weaken it. After a long period of time, about 1 year, the standard chasis will proably suffer some natural age hardening making it stiffer and more brittle. The changes are subtle on aircraft but occur none the less. Keep from bending it if at all possible, it is not possible to keep the standard temper without re heat treatment which will require the entire car be stripped and raised to a temperarute of approximately 870 degrees F and then cooled to less than 100 degrees F in less than 10 seconds. Nothing to be scared of, unless you wrap it up. (not quite like steel, but I guess that;s the point.) | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 932 Registered: 4-2003 |
There is an article on the 360 Aluminum space frame in the Fall/Winter 1999 issue of Rosso Ferrari which gives the following information. The castings are B356, the extruded bits are made of six major alloys, mostly from the 6000 series. | ||
| Dave Janes (Sparetireless)
Junior Member Username: Sparetireless Post Number: 170 Registered: 1-2003 |
What is the alloy of the aluminum used in the 360? I guess the castings are 356-T and the extrusions could be anything from 5052 to 7075. If you can tell me the alloy number, I can tell you what the alloy will act like. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1021 Registered: 11-2002 |
A crashed and repaired alloy frame could be dangerous ... Another thing that I would worry about is the 3rd or 4th barrel roll as that alloy frame is not designed for that and if the alloy work hardens the car will start falling apart leaving you sitting on the ground in nothing but the seat. Pete | ||
| Michael W. (Whimike)
Junior Member Username: Whimike Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2003 |
"Most of these cars are requiring some body, suspension and engine work. Like Mr. Doody said there are only a few places that can work on the aluminum chassis' as it is. It just seems that this will make it very expensive for people ten to fifteen years from now to own a 360 Modena as their first Ferrari." I think 10-15 years down the road aluminum in cars will be much more prevelant and there will likely be far more shops that can work on aluminum. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Intermediate Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 1029 Registered: 6-2002 |
Any new technology is feared for a while. Cars in general are becoming much more exotic and complicated than ever before. Aluminum and carbon composites and such are nothing to be scared of. Aluminum welds just fine with a gas MIG or TIG welder, and well, buy a new carbon part, you don't want to futz with repairing that. Body panels are becoming modular, dent one, replace. Paint is easy. As far as frame damage? Don't wad the car up. Or if you do, recycle it and buy a new one. Best! Ben. | ||
| Thomas Bergstraesser (Thomas_b)
New member Username: Thomas_b Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2003 |
Good question - you might want to read: http://www.deskeng.com/articles/02/july/cover/main_dig.htm it describes some of the engineering around the 360 space frame - I wouldn�t worry about the aging or hardening of aluminum so much � computer simulations are pretty good in that space today so I trust the design � I would worry about manufacturing or repair problems � combine aluminum + iron + water and you run into nice problems � on the positive side you don�t have to worry about rust | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1170 Registered: 4-2002 |
A more interesting point is that aluminum work hardens while steel does not. What this means is that as a 360 is driven down the road, all those force inputs to the chassis are hardening the attachment points*, and when a big force is encountered, it might let go in a big way (break, crack,...) while the same design in steel would simply bend. However, Ferrari used Aluminum to reduce the mass of the car, and increase its stiffness. The added stiffness puts the forces (that would work harden the aluminum) down at very small levels indeed! It may very well be harder (or more expensive) to repair a 360 that has suffered a big shunt than a 355 that suffers a similar shunt. But this may or may not have anything to do with using aluminum as the chassis material. *The attachment points are cast, well ribbed, and use a slightly different aluminum alloy than the rest of the chassis structure. This should minimize the exposure to actual work hardening. | ||
| Michael Palilonis (Mpalilonis)
New member Username: Mpalilonis Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2003 |
[..."Also, do you see the aluminum chassis, etc. as being a cost factor down the road. For example someone wanting to buy an '03 360 Modena ten years or so from now."] Sorry I am new at this as you can see from my posts. What I was trying to get at with the cost factor part is putting the current 360 owners in the shoes of the guys that are buying the early and mid eighties 308's and 328's as their first Ferrari. Most of these cars are requiring some body, suspension and engine work. Like Mr. Doody said there are only a few places that can work on the aluminum chassis' as it is. It just seems that this will make it very expensive for people ten to fifteen years from now to own a 360 Modena as their first Ferrari. Just trying to throw some ideas out there.  | ||
| Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member Username: Challenge Post Number: 210 Registered: 9-2002 |
I don't think rust will be a big issue... | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 918 Registered: 10-2001 |
Guys at www.NSXprime.com have been dealing with aluminum chassis questions for 12 years now. If you want to know more about painting, repair, welding, bent frame... you should check out their site. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1656 Registered: 8-2001 |
I don't see this being a concern if the car's properly driven and serviced. Bend the car and it will be expensive. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1896 Registered: 11-2001 |
the audi A8 (the old D2 and new D3 variations (or is that D3 and D4? whatever - current and last) have all-almuminum frames. there are something like 3 or 4 facilities on the US that are authorized to futz with them. if you have a problem with your frame (eg: accident), audi transports the car from your dealer to the nearest facility (nearest to boston is southern CT) at their expense and they give you an A6 as a loaner. interesting. there's just not many places qualified to futz with this stuff apparently. doody. | ||
| Aaron Williams (Aawil)
Member Username: Aawil Post Number: 336 Registered: 8-2002 |
I think you have to have a ferrari authorized dealer to do frame work on the aluminum frame because they won't sell just anybody parts. At least that's what i remember hearing. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1655 Registered: 8-2001 |
What do you mean by "cost factor"? | ||
| Michael Palilonis (Mpalilonis)
New member Username: Mpalilonis Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2003 |
Being that this is Ferrari's first street car to utilize aluminum for its chassis, body, engine and suspenion. I was looking to see what everyones thoughts were on the new 360 Modena. Also, do you see the aluminum chassis, etc. as being a cost factor down the road. For example someone wanting to buy an '03 360 Modena ten years or so from now. Thanks for the input! |