| Author | Message | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 631 Registered: 6-2001 |
I've been thinking about trading in the spider for a 360 CS. I was told by the dealer, who is a good friend, that I can test drive one next month, and if i like it I can have it. MSRP, no wait no bull----. Definitely pays to establish a relationship with a dealer, and helps even more if you race at track events and use them for track support and basically hand them a check each month large enough to cover a mortgage on a nice 10,000 sq. ft. McMansion. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 322 Registered: 8-2002 |
the enzo line is a seperate production line with no more than seven cars under production at one time. the f50's, although all 1995 models, were still being produced well into 1997. as far as i know, all enzo's will be 2003 models. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 936 Registered: 10-2001 |
Will the Enzo be 2003 and 2004 year car? I had no idea it takes that long to make just 400 cars. Did they have a seperate production line, just for the ENZO? | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 321 Registered: 8-2002 |
the whole idea with ferrari limiting f50 production to 349 was that they figured there would be a world market for 350 such cars. in order to always keep them in demand (ie- one millionaire who wants and is willing to pay for it, can't have one) was to produce less than demand. it goes back to when enzo kept people waiting. when you talk about people who are used to having everyone fall all-over them to please them and you tell them they have to wait, they become very impatient. ultimately, they want that more, as they had to get it as opposed to it being given to them.the enzo is the same way. the production line is still active and will be for some time. i was at the factory in may and they are expecting to continue production for at least another year to deliver all 399 (although it will likely be many more than that- just secretive). there is a reason we all love these cars. they are exclusive and difficult to come by. they are hand built and works of art. as for any artsist, you have to know when to leave your audience begging for more and when to give it to them. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2001 |
William- I agree, you may have a point. I couldn't understand why the ENZO was such a failure. In never having had a production run (They were all sold before they rolled of the line)the "Car Press" has already stopped talking about ENZO becuase its out of production, and they can't get one to test. I thought Ferrari had made a big mistake, not building more, to spread design and R&D cost over more units. And keep the car in the news longer. Now I understand.... Being a snob to the snobs... is kind of a neat idea. Rings true with stories about how Lamo got started, after Ferrari treated him like a jerk. I don't like snobs. But the idea of a snob to the snobs.... I can see the coolness in that for some reason. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 318 Registered: 8-2002 |
we are the missing the point of ferrari, exclusivity. the history of the company was to make the marque unobtainable. we have all heard the stories of enzo refusing requests from famous celebrities or rolayty. his whole point was that the cars were for a selected few. over the years, the business has become more commercialised, but keep in mind the f40, the f50, and now the enzo. picking and choosing the rich who "can" have such a car is the best part of the business. how few entities in the world can tell multi-millionaires "no". ferrari has a history built on lure and mystery. if they were to increase production significaly, yes they would sell more vehicles but they wouldn't greatly increase market share. the other manufacturers will take away some market from ferrari, but very little. ferrari is and has always been the pinnacle. do you think audi will limit volume if the gallardo sells out? noway, they will try to fing a way to increase profits. ferrari is not missing any boat that they have not elected to join before. this market, high-end, high performance sports cars, is cyclical, when the others bail ship after losing money on every car they produce, and ferrari will be left standing. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 934 Registered: 10-2001 |
"I think what you're missing is that the relative scarcity of Ferraris is a vital reason for the strong demand. If Ferrari were to scale up production to the levels of Porsche" I think if they doubled from 4,000 to 8,000 (this is world-wide) they would still have the same scarcity...but not be leaving soo much market share for the compitition to gear-up for. What is Porsche production? I agree they might be too high. But then again... the reason you see so many 911 is that they haven't changed the shape of the car in 30 years. Porsche is addig SUV's and thinking of a cheaper car along with boxter maybe 4-seater? Just makes me wonder if any company can really stay small. Lambo was very small, Porsche getting bigger? Can Ferrari stay the same? ----------------------------------------- " Isn't Ferrari undertaking a rather ambitious growth plan through Maserati?" If Maserati was a head-turner, great looking car... I would agree with your statement. Unfortunatly the car gets lost below MB's SL500 and just can't help Ferrari because its looks are so blan, and design is just not sporty or exotic. (Its a great car but not going to fill the nitch of Ferrari expansion in the exotic car market.) | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 152 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ze I called around about the Gallardo and was told about, at least, a one year wait; where are they available at only a few months waiting time. I would be very interested in speaking to those dealers. Thanx | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mark, call me Pollyanna, but: Isn't Ferrari undertaking a rather ambitious growth plan through Maserati? I like the idea of reserving the Ferrari brand for very high performance, relatively low production cars. Also, I believe that Ferrari could not have erected any barrier to entry into the exotic market by increasing production. Ferrari's competitors are strong willed and well funded, and I cannot imagine that Ferrari's mere presence would keep them from trying to steal market share. I feel that, whatever one thinks of the Maranello styling - some seem to find it bland, to understate the objections one reads here - the Enzo's styling is brilliant, very edgy, much bolder than that of the Carrera GT, for example. I don't know what Ferrari has in store for the 360 and 575 replacements, but based on the Enzo I hope to be challenged and thrilled. Finally, although the difficulty in obtaining cars at MSRP might be frustrating, I don't view it as unfair. To me, it's just business. I am surprised not to see more used Ferraris on the road, especially the 308s and 328s, which I find to be beautiful cars, and can be had at - relatively, to be sure - low cost. I agree with 911Fan that scarcity probably is an important part of Ferrari's success, but would be interested in hearing opposing views. In my area I see many Mercedes SL500s, 996 variants and Jaguars - lovely cars, all - but there are very few, almost no Ferraris and Lambos. | ||
| 911 Fan (911fan)
Junior Member Username: 911fan Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2003 |
Mark, I think what you're missing is that the relative scarcity of Ferraris is a vital reason for the strong demand. If Ferrari were to scale up production to the levels of Porsche, let's say, then it would no longer have the cachet that it enjoys now and it would start having to compete on performance alone. If performance is the only criterion, there are lots of cars which are as good as, or, dare I say, better than Ferraris at lower cost. But if you're upset that you can't just stroll into a Ferrari dealer and buy a 360 at MSRP, I understand fully!  | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 933 Registered: 10-2001 |
That is my question? In this world it seems you GROW or get PASSED. No one sets the world on fire by staying small. Did anyone of these cars get the final Green-Light in accounting, because Ferrari won't increase prodution to meet demand? (if so which ones?) Ferrari is the best, but they refuse to satisfy the market so they let others get a foot in the door. Does 1900's thinking (build one less then the market demands) still work in 2000, the decade of the merger ? Are people building and buying these because they can't get a new Ferrari at list? Wouldn't most want a Ferrari if they could get a fair deal?  | ||
| 911 Fan (911fan)
Junior Member Username: 911fan Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2003 |
Mark, "Ferrari had a chance to double in size and keep the compeititors locked out!" If Ferrari doubled in size, how would that lock out competitors? Please explain. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 932 Registered: 10-2001 |
When Ferrari showed the world they could make people wait 5 years for a $150k car.... The Industry gave Ferrari a few years to ramp-up production. Ferrari did not do this. They left this huge imbalance in supply and demand. Now FORD, LAMBO, VIPER, MB, and others are going to bring the Market back into balance. Ferrari had a chance to double in size and keep the compeititors locked out! Ferrari was asleep at the switch or so pig-headed about keeping numbers too low, that they opened the door for all new competitors. Now when the guy with $150k in his pocket is told about the wait for the Ferrari he can buy a baby Lambo. But when its time to switch back will he? Or will he just go up-scale with Lambo. Most car companies want to grab a custumor and then keep him for life. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
Junior Member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2003 |
Interesting argument, Trevi, "what is easy to get, looses value, it's not only about the price". Looking at Porsche or Mercedes residuals would tend to infirm your theory. For sure, I have no clue what's the strategy of the Fiat board, Mediobanca and Piero Ferrari, but I think that it's a obvious that Fiat needs cash, an IPO on Ferrari stock was postponed several times ... I don't see a problem either (although the current financials are not exactly what you can call 'sound'), but I find it an interesting case study. Ferrari used to be an exception, a perfect niche, but with Porsche, BMW & Mercedes going upscale, and Bentley, Lambo & Aston going down, looks like this segment is getting nicely crowded. For sure, customers will be the winners, so we should cheer up: better cars, better quality, competitive prices. | ||
| Ermin Trevisan (Trevi)
Junior Member Username: Trevi Post Number: 236 Registered: 5-2003 |
what is easy to get, looses value, it's not only about the price. it is not necessary to satisfy the demand in quantity in order to do successful business. and, as you can see, there are two regulation mechanisms: waiting time and price, ferrari seems to focus on waiting time rather than price. for me not a bad strategy in itself. you are supposing that the people who can afford list prices are mainly not real ferrari nuts, true or not, what would result? these people would switch over to other marquees and the waiting lists will become shorter again. classic pig cycle, i would say. as long as ferrari is not forced to grow in order to have sound figures, due to a sustained and self-funded development, i can not see a serious problem at first sight. trevi | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
Junior Member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2003 |
You have to face realities: a business is a business, and I believe that the proportion of Ferrari customers who are truly passionate is a minority. I'd actually argue that the 2nd hand owners are more passionate than (someof) the ones who can afford the list price ... | ||
| luciano favero (Ontogenetic1007)
New member Username: Ontogenetic1007 Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2002 |
>I can't see how a company could afford not to have a growth strategy, unless the shareholders are nuts. >Building as many cars as the market asks for may hurt the brand (loss of exclusivity), but aren't the price points exclusive >enough ? The leadtimes on Modenas make no business sense to me: if you are shopping for a Modena, told you have to wait two >years, and realize you can get a Gallardo, an Aston or a Porsche within a couple of months, what do you do ? If you wish the Modena - you wait. This is love and the way everything worth anything (ie. worth anything tomorrow) operates. Waiting can be very beautiful. >I can't see how a company could afford not to have a growth strategy, unless the shareholders are nuts. For the customers are "nuts". One is a fortunate to be "nuts" about something. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
Junior Member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2003 |
I can't see how a company could afford not to have a growth strategy, unless the shareholders are nuts. Building as many cars as the market asks for may hurt the brand (loss of exclusivity), but aren't the price points exclusive enough ? The leadtimes on Modenas make no business sense to me: if you are shopping for a Modena, told you have to wait two years, and realize you can get a Gallardo, an Aston or a Porsche within a couple of months, what do you do ? | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 285 Registered: 3-2003 |
I for one hope Ferrari does not increase production of Ferraris (as opposed to Maseratis). | ||
| Ermin Trevisan (Trevi)
Junior Member Username: Trevi Post Number: 235 Registered: 5-2003 |
shark, the question is if they need a growth strategy at all? and...what could a growth strategy mean, becoming italian porsche? what are the strategic options to stay fit and to improve return on investment? interesting questions, maybe we should start a separate thread on this topic. trevi | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
Junior Member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2003 |
Good catch Trevi, numbers make more sense. Still, I am still looking for clues on Ferrari's growth strategy (other than propping up Maserati sales). Any hint ? | ||
| Ermin Trevisan (Trevi)
Junior Member Username: Trevi Post Number: 230 Registered: 5-2003 |
shark, interesting figures. as far as i see these figures are ferrari + maserati consolidated. that would make about 6800 cars a year. however, that's still an average of 170kEuro and if you take out the enzo, it's 156kEuro. the enzo will contribute 240mEuro in total, but i don't know the break down in fiscal years. it would be interesting to know the result of the f1 business. if you deduct the f1 budget, you end up with an average of 125kEuro per car, which sounds more reasonable. trevi | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Intermediate Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 1138 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>>Brand licensing ? Although a SIGNIFICANT amount, it doesn't make a great impact on the overall numbers. Reportedly, Fila paid US$ 80 million for a 3 year license. Jack | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
Junior Member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 54 Registered: 7-2003 |
It is a fact that leadtimes for 575 are rather short in comparison with 360s... Wondering how much of this results from true production capacity limitations, and how much is a deliberate commercial policy to channel some customers to the high-end, higher margin V12 models ? I found in http://www.fiatgroup.com/3uk.pdf that , while sales are in moderate growth, Ferrari is actually loosing money over FY03H1, supposedly due to foreign exchange ($ vs �) and R&D costs. The strenghtening of the � must hurt when you sell so many cars in the US ... Wondering however how they achieve their revenues. Divide 1.2bln� by 4000 cars and you reach an ASP of 300K� which is probably 2x above reality. I doubt that Vodaphone and Marlboro make up for the difference. Spare parts ? Brand licensing ? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1530 Registered: 9-2002 |
Price on the CS is 190k sans options, as per local dealer. --Dan PS: Doody, any progress with the chop-shops? | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1910 Registered: 11-2001 |
the growth comes form bigger checks from marlboro and vodafone ;-) they seem to be having problems selling maranellos. FNA was sending out invitations to "test drive a maranello" (i think via the owners site). you can find a few around the country sitting on lots new. the 456 petered out badly imo - i think it'd be a mistake to let the maranello do the same. but luca hasn't called to ask me, so ;-) doody. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
Junior Member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 52 Registered: 7-2003 |
Competition is heating up, Ferrari may not have the luxury to keep a pure sequential product update roadmap. Has anyone wondered what is the most profitable model line ? I actually wondered many times what Ferrari's biz model is since they limit their production. No increase in terms of sales volume, stable price points, where does the growth come from ? Derivative products ? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6526 Registered: 12-2000 |
well, since the 575 was the last one that got updated (although minor), I think 2006 would be about right. | ||
| Andrew H (Stokpro)
Junior Member Username: Stokpro Post Number: 220 Registered: 6-2003 |
FoSeattle is no longer taking orders or deposits for ANY 360. The wait list is currently fours years. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
Junior Member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2003 |
They may have an allocation of cars, but dealers here which have more purchase orders than they had allocated cars get turned down. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 441 Registered: 3-2002 |
> I was talking to Ferrari of Huston and they were taking orders for the CS. > But they did not have the price yet. How long ago? They certainly have the price now, since FoDallas has it (same owner). | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 440 Registered: 3-2002 |
Well, I think "until 2005" means "through 2005"... based on the production of 900 and the apparent rate of production right now. That puts the 420 Whatever (360 replacement) coming out very late 2005 as a 2006 model. That leaves 2005 open for the 575 replacement... almost 2 years from very early 2004 to very late 2005. | ||
| Robert (Rjklein4470)
Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 307 Registered: 3-2002 |
I am not too sure the CS is sold out, I was talking to Ferrari of Huston and they were taking orders for the CS. But they did not have the price yet. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
New member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2003 |
The factory is said not to be accepting new orders, books full until 2005 when the 360 replacement comes out. Leads me to an interesting product planning speculation: 460 replaces 456 in 2004, launch in Detroit 3xx replaces 360 in 2005, launch in Geneva (?) when does the 575 replacement come ? I doubt that Ferrari will be able to compete till 2006 with the 575. |