| Author | Message | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 791 Registered: 5-2002 |
Frank, it depends what mods you're talking about and how much power you're trying to get. It's a little easier to make power with a 4v engine, but if you're adding boost, I think you're fine either way. I going to design a supercharger a guy with a 2vi that doesn't want to hear about anything under 600. I think it can be done. | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 395 Registered: 2-2003 |
4v Heads do not fit on the earlier cars as the cooling jackets/ports changed on the heads. Also, by going to higher lift/duration cams you'd have to go with higher compresion pistons to really get a big benifit from them. Putting earlier cams (76/77)on a later 308 (78-82) would probably give you some more power, but you'd have to change some other stuff as well (like your FI set up and I don't know how much that can be changed). Do a search on the tech board for "High Compression Ratio Rebuild". There is a LONG thread about a project a 308 owner here in KC is doing on his car (10:1 pistons and P6 cams) and it will probably have ~300HP when it's all said and done. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 512 Registered: 8-2003 |
Well,what year 308 would you recommend doing these mods too? A Quattrovalve motor,I am guessing. My car is a 2valve motor. And,is low mileage. So,maybe should look for another car to "HotRod"? (and ofcourse keep the 2v car that I have) But,I have also read that the earlier carbed cars put out more HP. But,If doing all of this to the engine,would probably be eliminating the carb set-up anyway.(I would prefer FI as it's a quicker response) And,4 valve heads breathe better. So,would I be better off modifying an '83-'85 car? And,I do want to stick with a 308,and not go up to a 328...or would I? (am partial to the 308's though) | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 789 Registered: 5-2002 |
William, not that I know of. I've been thinking about it, but I'm unsure that there is a big enough market to make it worth the bother. The parts to duplicate mine would run in the 13-15 range. I was thinking a basic non intercooler kit could be done for around 8-9. Either way, it's a lot to put into a 308, I just don't know how many people would. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3331 Registered: 2-2001 |
Does any1 sell a complete supercharger kit with new pistons, intercooler, supercharger, K&N filter & adpater or do you have to create your own kit ? Thanks | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 138 Registered: 3-2003 |
your point is? | ||
| Al Johnson (Bigal)
Junior Member Username: Bigal Post Number: 173 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have also seen the differences Frank mentions between a 308 and a Pantera. The Pantera will blow a 308 off the road but in the turns and top end, the 308 leaves it behind. Mark mentions the turbo lag. I experineced it first hand when I drove a Porsche Turbo Carrera. Not much was going on and then all of a sudden at a cetain rpm, I felt this surge. I equated it to slowly pouring a bucket of water and then tipping it over. | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2003 |
William, your better off calling NORWOOD to get an accurate price. I went all out on this project with all new pistons, air water I/C setup, kevlar clutch, etc,etc,etc. In the neighborhood of 21k or so would be very accurate | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 783 Registered: 5-2002 |
Boost is your fiend  Ferrari engines come stock with all the really cool forged parts you need to add to most cars. They need them for the rpms they turn. Some models, like a qv, also came with pretty low compression (8.6 in a QV) so they are ideal candidates for adding gobs boost to. The valve springs need to be changed if the boost is going over 15 or so and a better clutch is in order, but basically they are pretty good as is. Models with higher compression will not tolerate anywhere near as much boost without changing to lower compression pistons. I got the intercooler working today and it's cooling better than I thought it would so boost is lower than I thought it would be. It's at 12 psi and the air temp was steady at 120F after 10 back to back 2nd gear pulls. My calculator says that's about 460-480 hp. Time to change pulleys and kick it up a bit. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 504 Registered: 8-2003 |
Man,a lot of great info and options. Thank all of you guys very much. Winter is coming to the heartland pretty soon,so a good time to put a car into the shop for some performance mods...and free winter storage,for awhile,anyway! Thanks again,guys! | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3319 Registered: 2-2001 |
WOW, 450 hp with the 308s great handling & some new Brembo brakes would make the 308 a killer. a word of CAUTION though, make sure you install race quality stub axles or your 450hp 308 will soon be a 3 wheeled 308 WHat does Norwood charge for a 450 hp intercooled system ? | ||
| Nibblesworth (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 695 Registered: 11-2002 |
Aha! That's why - 25lbs of boost. Wow! Question - what did you do to the heads/block in order to make it survive such a high boost? 25lbs in most cars would result in a REALLY fun 5 minutes of driving, and a really boring 2 months of a rebuild. Is the Ferrari engine inherently stronger in terms of accepting high boost? If so, why? Is it the tiny stroke and big bore? Very interesting. I'm very impressed. Good job! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 781 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'll add one thing to Russ's post, which is I think only the 4v guys get to claim the 30-40hp by pulling the stock bosch stuff off. I think it's a lot smaller gain on a 2v. I'm basing that on the pre-cat cars with carbs and a much bigger cam made 240 hp, the cat cars with the smaller cams and carbs didn't. So I think you'll need the cams as well if you want to see the the 30-40 hp gain. Still a nice gain and you'd be using OEM parts, so any ferrari shop should be able to work on it. Once you do something with non-OEM stuff, the list of shops that can deal with it gets a lot smaller. | ||
| mike 308 (Concorde)
Member Username: Concorde Post Number: 298 Registered: 8-2002 |
Paul B: I think it's been "proven" just as many other times that a Tubi DOES increase HP slightly. It makes for interesting debate, though this isn't the thread to do it in. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 577 Registered: 2-2003 |
Frank Jut a note on converting to carbs - On a 2v the previous 2v carb manifolds should work and if you look at the numbers, and Mark can help me here, removing the flow restrictive K-jetronic will probably be worth 30 hp, maybe more tweaking the jetting (great threads on this topic). Would also be very easy to do. Would guess the whole deal should be around $4K, maybe a bit less. Your stock Bosch fuel injection is not tolerant of higher performance cams. Carburation will allow you to go to better cams later if you need, assuming smog testing not an issue. FChat poster Philip Airey has put a set of Ferrari competition 'P-6' cams in his 308 and re-jetted the carbs with impressive results. A set of re-profiled cams for you car would be about $1K. You hear a lot of different things about exhausts There is an article in 'Forza' magazine 2-3 mos ago magazine and some other posts where there was a dyno documented gain with a tubi exhaust - not tremendous, but there. A Stebro or one of the other less expensive alternatives may work as well, but not look as good. Carobu Engineering did the Forza article. Your car, if a stock '81 2v, has about 204 hp on a good day. With carbs swap alone about 235+ (will feel like 250 because of improved response) and adding cams who knows? My conservative guess would be 260+ if done well. For max hp, you can never beat forced induction (turbo or super) or NOS. These also have their associated costs as pointed out. Would imagine them to be scary fast. You won't see a better supercharger installation than Mark's, and a Norwood turbo conversion is about the best as well it seems. Converting your stock mechanical FI to EFI with a MOTEC or HALTEC system wil gain you some as well, but you can turbo your existing Bosch K-Jetronic FI for about the same price. Just my experience as a data point here. Hope this helps your decision one way or another. best Russ | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 134 Registered: 3-2003 |
Frank by the way, a TUBI does not increase hp, only noise. Been proven on the dyno many times. | ||
| Paul Brennan (Turboqv)
Junior Member Username: Turboqv Post Number: 132 Registered: 3-2003 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Frank, With the right turbo application meaning a "hybrid" ceramic ballbearing setup. Lag is not too bad. Will never be as good as a supercharger setup. unless, Nitrous is put into the equation to spool up the turbo or turbos? In my particular car it pulls nicely off the line but hits incredible hard at 4500RPM and pulls visciously until redline. REMEMBER a turbo is only a small part of the complete system. If you want serious power wou will need to address at minimum 1. fuel system 2. intercooler 3. wastegates 4. blow off valves 5. lower compression pistons 6. stronger head gaskets  | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 780 Registered: 5-2002 |
Oh, turbo lag is much less than it was, but it isn't gone and it gets worse the more boost you add. At the track it doesn't mean anything, but on the street it can be annoying, it bothers the heck out of me, but others don�t even notice it. The other thing to watch with turbos is that they really don�t start making boost until you about 1/3 of the way up the tach, then the boost builds very fast. Again, at the track it means nothing, but one the street you need to watch yourself in the corners, and again it gets worse the more boost you have. But they do make the car go fast Plan on spending at least 7k if you do everything yourself, or 15k to have it done. Add another 2-10 if you want to intercool. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 778 Registered: 5-2002 |
Frank, if your just looking for a little more, you could find a set of pre-cat carb cams. The stock fi won't work with them, so either get the carbs to go with the cams or convert to efi. I think the cams are going for around $1200, I don't know about carbs. Converting your stock intake to efi should run you 2000-2500 I think. That will add about 30 - 40 hp I guess. You should be able to get a 50 or 75 hp nos kit installed for about $1000, by far the cheapest hp. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 501 Registered: 8-2003 |
Yes,Mark,it's just for the street. So,I'm not looking for anything too radical...Nothing that will "lunch" the motor. And,I don't street race. But,the car is 22,almost 23 years old. And,technology has increased ten fold in that time. I also own a Corvette,and the initial power off the line is way superior than the 308,although,2 totally different cars. And,they are geared differently,too. The 308,on the highway,then,blows away the 'vette. When most cars will be "topping out" the Ferrari is asking for,and giving, "More,more,more". So,I am just looking for a little more,not much,just a little more "low end" power,and "quickness". Maybe,a Tubi and K & N will be all that I am looking for,but,wanted to ask about turbo's,too. Also,is "turbo lag" a thing of the past? Thanks for all the responses. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 775 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nebula - your right, it's a big number. I'm just finishing it up, the car is driving, but the intercooler isn't online yet. That should happen tomorrow morning. The final boost number will be 20 - 25 psi, depending on the intercooler's performance. The base hp of a qv goes up to about 270-280 once the bosch injection is removed, then the boost should add about 100-115% more hp to that. I'll get the actual numbers as soon as I can, but the calculation is pretty straight forward and was dead on for the 350 hp system. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 694 Registered: 11-2002 |
550 - 600?? Isn't that a little optomistic? What kind of boost is it running? I don't mean to be a jerk - I don't have any experience with blown 308's, but I know that to get 600hp from a blown 5.0l V8 is VERY hard without grenading it after a few miles. If 600 is right, amazing! Very impressive.... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2764 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank I bought a new 308GTBi in 80 and after a while WWOC turbo'd it. While it was a bit faster it never ran all that well and one day the trubo caught on fire. I emptied my extinguisher and had WWOC remove the turbo. I've seen a lot of things but IMHO Mark's supercharger is VERY impressive. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 773 Registered: 5-2002 |
Frank, Is this a street car? If so, have you thought about a supercharger? The boost is on from idle to redline. There are a couple guys with turbo cars the post here, Paul is one - intercooled -nice about 450 hp I think he said, the other guy has a mondail - no cooler -also a Norwood job, 350 hp I think. Nos is fine, just don't over do it. I think 40% increase is the limit if you don't want surprises. Roots blower, no intercooler, 350 hp  Screw type blower, intercooled, I'm guessing 550-600hp, I'll have numbers soon.  | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 2168 Registered: 12-2002 |
There is a member in Southern California who has a Norwood modified Turbo 308 QV. His name is Paul Brennan and I am sure he wouldnt mind helping you out with more information. Ive seen his car in person and it is amazing! | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 681 Registered: 11-2002 |
The Euro 208 was a turbo 2.0l V8 produced only for the European market, mainly to offset the heavy taxes that the Italian government imposed on engines over 2.0l. Because the V8 was so tiny, Ferrari threw a turbo onto it in order to give it some oomph. I would love to get my hands on one, simply because it's a hard car to find, and I love turbos! As far as I know, other than the engine and turbo (as if that isn't enough), the car is the same as a US 308. | ||
| Frank Wiedmann (Frankieferrari)
Member Username: Frankieferrari Post Number: 499 Registered: 8-2003 |
Do any of you guys have any experience with turbo's on a 308? I am thinking of some ways to get aliitle more horsepower out of my 2v '81,without going into the engine(I don't think a Ferrari needs it) Tubi,and a K&N seem about all I can think of right now. A few years ago,I saw a "twin turbo 308" listed For Sale in Hemmings. I called the guy,and he was trying to tell me that it was like a "European,208",which I had never heard of. I don't want to stray too far from original,so,just making inquiries about turbo's at this time. Also,what about nitrous? I KNOW what that stuff can do to a motor. Have seen broken crankshafts. Connecting rods through oil pans,etc...so,think I'll stay away from that. Thanks! |